Bdijkstra

In cases like [1], please read the edit summary. "Copy from P373 to commons sitelink" - remove the incorrect Commons category (P373) value from the item, and Pi bot won't copy it over to the sitelink again. Although you probably also want to remove the incorrect link to Commons from de:Holdeurner Irdenware as well, to avoid it being copied back over to Wikidata from the Wikipedia in the future. Or what you've done at Holdeurn site (Q67086666) also works, and is the best solution. :-) (although the cleanup of P373 and the incorrect commons link is still needed anyway.) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

I did read the edit summary; there was no incorrect P373, only not one eligible for copying to a sitelink. Also I wondered if Pi bot would back off for a while from an item when reverted, but alas. The problem I'm having is that Pi bot is too fast. As I understand it, if multiple items have a P373 to the same category, then Pi bot won't add a sitelink. I'm going through a few thousand pages by hand now, so I don't know yet whether items will point to the same category. For my next run I think it'll help to process the pages sorted by Commonscat. --bdijkstra (overleg) 20:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Mike Peel: now that I'm done with this run, I know how I should have done it. Does Pi bot also move Commons-category-sitelinks from "article"-items to "category"-items? --bdijkstra (overleg) 07:52, 12 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yes, e.g., [2] [3]. But please don't create category items unless they're necessary (e.g., for linking multiple items to the same category, or if the sitelink is blocked by a gallery). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:00, 12 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

No problem. So far I've merged more category items than I've created. :) --bdijkstra (overleg) 10:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Gezien je aanstootgevende bewerkingscommentaren mag ik er vanuit gaan dat al die duizenden en duizenden taxa die ik de afgelopen maanden aan wikidata heb geknoopt met de halfbakken en vaak niet werkende tools, dat die vanaf nu door jou aan de nl-wiiki-artikelen gaan worden geknoopt? Edoderoo (talk) 06:23, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sorry dat je dat aanstoot aan nam, het was bedoeld als een uiting van onbegrip. Het is natuurlijk best wel raar om een taxon te willen koppelen aan iets heel anders, waar bovendien al een Nederlandstalig artikel over bestaat. Maar foutjes maken we allemaal, dat snap ik ook wel. Gisteren ben ik naar aanleiding van jouw melding in het Wikidata-café aan de slag gegaan met een lijstje van Duplicity en vond daar een heel aantal oude artikelen die niet gekoppeld waren. Een aantal waren door vandalisme of onkunde maanden geleden onterecht ontkoppeld, maar ook waren er een aantal recent door jou ontkoppeld. Dus je had deze fouten vrij gemakkelijk achteraf zelf kunnen corrigeren door naar die lijst te kijken of door je eigen bijdragen met "Koppeling naar [nlwiki] gewijzigd:" te controleren. Anders blijven ze misschien maanden staan. --bdijkstra (overleg) 07:24, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Er zijn ook een paar kapotte scripts, waardoor sommige oude artikelen plots van alle talen worden losgehaald. Ik heb meermaals geprobeerd te achterhalen wat daar de oorzaak van was, maar de gebruikers die het hebben gedaan hebben niet eens door dat ze iets op Wikidata hebben uitgespookt. Soms is het ook hun enige bijdrage, via een tooltje. Het koppelen van Wikidata-items is een hels karwei, waar je per dag uren aan kunt besteden, en dan loop je nog achter de feiten aan, dat is al sinds 2016 zo. En dan is er ook nog de lijst Wikidata:Database_reports/without_claims_by_site/nlwiki voor het geval je dacht dat je klaar was ;-) Mijn eigen bijdragen nalopen op Wikidata is trouwens een leuke suggestie, maar ik ga al richting de 3 miljoen edits (en 55 miljoen van mijn bot), dat loopt je niet zomaar eventjes langs ;-) Gelukkig kunnen de meeste edits met een tool worden gedaan, anders haal je zoveel niet eens in een mensenleven. Jij zit nu op 5763 edits, zie ik hierboven staan. Edoderoo (talk) 08:08, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Drie miljoen edits loop je inderdaad niet zomaar even langs, maar als je net een sessie van een paar duizend hebt gedaan, dan zou je dat in een paar minuten moeten kunnen nalopen (als de Wikidata-server een beetje vlot meewerkt). Aantallen edits vergelijken heeft overigens weinig zin; iedereen vervult een andere rol, verschillende rollen uiten zich in verschillende aantallen edits per uur. --bdijkstra (overleg) 09:34, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ik had Joopwiki er trouwens vorige week nog op gewezen, en gisteren heeft zijn batch/script ook Wikidata-items aangemaakt. Edoderoo (talk) 13:48, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I removed the IMDb ID because it links to the adapted American television series (see Storyline on IMDb: "based on the hit Dutch television series of the same name"). However, the series Utopia (Q18435255) is the original Dutch series. CENNOXX (talk) 12:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Ah okay, so I didn't look closely enough, sorry. I've restored your revision. bdijkstra (overleg) 12:41, 18 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, no problem. CENNOXX (talk) 12:50, 18 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

copied from user talk:Lymantria
Hi, I do not see the purpose to use as label the name of a category that does not exist in any Wikimedia site, like Categorie:Project:Pagina's waar de expansiediepte is overschreden My proposal is to put the Wikipedia category name as label, and the categories of other sites as aliases. Best regards, Vargenau (talk) 14:36, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
end of copy

1. I think that Escarbot shouldn't change things that aren't wrong.
2. I think that Escarbot shouldn't create a situation where an alias exists that is equal to the label. (example)
3. I think that Escarbot shouldn't editwar with a user. It's a bot, it could be wrong because it operates with simple rules, it doesn't know all the details.
4. According to Help:Label, "there is no requirement that an item's label be the same as the page name on its corresponding Wikimedia site." So it is perfectly valid for a name to be in the aliases. After all, search results include both labels and aliases.
5. Also according to Help:Label, "Category and template labels should be identical to sitelinks". For many items this is impossible because different projects use different names (in the same language). So in some cases a user might choose to use the most frequent page title as the label and set the others as aliases. Escarbot shouldn't change this, because it's a valid way to deal with this.
6. Dutch category names of maintenance categories are a little weird. In most Dutch projects there is the convention to prefix the page name with the project name. E.g. Q5321459 has 2 Dutch sitelinks:
   1. Categorie:Wikipedia:Pagina's waar de expansiediepte is overschreden
   2. Categorie:WikiWoordenboek:Pagina's waar de expansiediepte is overschreden

These names are different, but they are constructed in exactly the same way. So the convention arose to construct a neutral label by replacing the project-specific part by "Project" and add the real sitelinks to the aliases. Hence in this case the label is "Categorie:Project:Pagina's waar de expansiediepte is overschreden".

For the first 5 points above, please let me know whether you disagree and if so, please elaborate. For point 6, please let me know if you think that this convention breaks any rules or pre-existing consensus and if so, which ones.

--bdijkstra (overleg) 17:17, 20 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi,

First, I am sorry for the late answer. I was in vacation for two weeks, 21 April to 6 May, and I did not see your answer before leaving.

As a general comment, Escarbot has made thousands of edits, and if one edit out of one thousand is not optimal, I still think it is doing something very useful.

Point 1. It is OK to change something that is not wrong if it makes it better, e.g. more precise.

Point 2. Agreed. In that case the alias should be removed, but currently Escarbot is not programmed to to it.

Point 3. Agreed. But this is difficult to avoid. Sometimes the bot goes several times to the same page by a different path.

Point 4. I do not understand your point here.

Point 5. My rule here is to give priority to Wikipedia which is the major site. The other sites should be put as aliases, as well as the redirects.

Point 6. Same as point 5. I find it very strange to choose a name that does not exist in any website.

Best regards,

Vargenau (talk) 10:53, 10 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Indeed by far the most edits of Escarbot are useful and it is perfectly fine to make suboptimal edits every once in a while, but when it repeats the same reverted edit, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Point 1. My point is that if it's not wrong, then it's better to do nothing than to make a potential mistake.
Point 2. I think in this case the easiest way to deal with this is to say that there's nothing wrong and Escarbot should do nothing.
Point 3. Difficult maybe, but I think necessary. Either you somehow avoid the edit warring, or the page will get protected or the bot will get blocked. Such is the policy.
Point 4. The point is that it's not necessarily invalid to choose a label that does not exist in any website.
Point 5. I don't think there's consensus to give priority to Wikipedia.
Point 6. It may be very strange, but it's the convention. And to my knowledge nobody tried to get consensus otherwise.
Best regards, bdijkstra (overleg) 13:11, 10 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Lymantria: note that Escarbot continues to make the same objectively bad edits over and over again, like this one where a label is written that is equal to a pre-existing alias. bdijkstra (overleg) 12:59, 31 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Vargenau: Your bot should be programmed in order to not make edits like this. Point 5 has been explained by Bdijkstra and a bot should never do edits that are controversial. That the cited edit is controversial, is clear from this discussion. Let this be a last warning before blocking the bot. Lymantria (talk) 13:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

It is clear that @bdijkstra and I disagree on what the label should be. I still claim that for a category, using a label that does not exist on any website does not make sense. So you might say that my bot edit is controversial, but I consider his revert the same. This should be discussed with the community, not just between he and me. I do not know what the best place for that would be. Perhaps Help_talk:Label. Vargenau (talk) 08:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I don't really care that much what the label should be. As long as the "Category:Project:..." name remains present in either the label or the aliases, it is acceptable. But I would prefer if Escarbot would just leave the labels and aliases alone if all the sitelink page titles are already present. After all there is no consensus about the priority, so just shuffling them around would be controversial. bdijkstra (overleg) 08:49, 1 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Bot edits are typically hard to revert, therefore if you know there is no full consensus on an issue, you should not bot-edit that. It might be wise to broaden discussion and reach agreement, for instance in an RfC. And of course it is a task for all users to avoid reverting series. Lymantria (talk) 15:04, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Lymantria: would you say that this edit is controversial? It not only gave priority to Wikipedia, it also neglected to add an alias (as there are 2 valid English names). bdijkstra (overleg) 11:53, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

P.S. This is also just creating junk. bdijkstra (overleg) 11:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I do see the first edit as problematic, should not have been done by bot. It is clear that the removed description was a valid one derived from the commonslink. The bot should refrain from doing so, should be programmed to check that. The P.S. edit indeed was not correct, the alias should ave been removed. But the old description IMHO did not fit, see Q105604326 which is a subcategory at enwiki. Both issues should be programmed out of the bot. I will block the bot for 1 day to achieve that. --Lymantria (talk) 15:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Vargenau, Bdijkstra: (corrected ping). --Lymantria (talk) 15:13, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Honestly, you are nitpicking. I do not say that the bot does a perfect job, but if one out of 10 000 edits is not optimal, like leaving an alias the same as the label, I still think that it does something quite useful. Vargenau (talk) 17:03, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

As I've said before, I don't really have a problem with the occasional suboptimal edit. But what we've seen with Escarbot is that it will repeat the exact same edit over and over again, fighting the human users. This you can expect to result in frustration and demotivation. Having the bot look at the aliases, compare them with the label and making a decision based on that, should be a comparatively simple thing to program. bdijkstra (overleg) 17:20, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hello,

We have two different topics.

First on the fact that the bot was doing the same modification multiple times. This is due to the fact that I am using several strategies to list category pages, so one page can be visited more than once. You suggested to put "Category:Project" as an alias. I have added it to several pages, so this should solve the problem.

The second topic is about aliases, to avoid having an alias identical to the label, or not having aliases for sites other than Wikipedia. This needs some modifications in the bot as it does not handle aliases for the moment. I will work on that.

Vargenau (talk) 16:48, 6 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Vargenau, it looks like your work on that second topic isn't yet finished, yet Escarbot continues on the same path, judging from edits like this. @Lymantria: do you consider this problematic? bdijkstra (overleg) 17:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, there is no consensus to that change and you have explained extensively why "project" is preferrable in the Dutch language situation. I will again block Escarbot for a couple of days, to have this issue sorted out. Lymantria (talk) 07:59, 12 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

All wikidata elements with "project" have been fixed. Vargenau (talk) 12:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Mijn volglijst zit vol met wijzigingen zoals deze van jouw bot. Ik user:bitbotje geen toestemming heeft om hier te draaien. Zie Wikidata:Bots#Approval_process voor hoe dat aan te vragen. Multichill (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Zoals je kan zien doe ik dit al jaren, maar dit is de eerste keer dat ik een grote klus doe. Wikidata:Bots had ik al gelezen, en daarin staat volgens mij niet dat het verplicht is om geautomatiseerde edits met een botflag te draaien. Maar als jij aangeeft dat ik eerst moet aanvragen dan doe ik dat. bdijkstra (overleg) 18:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Op grond van je aanvraag is het botbitje toegekend. --Lymantria (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

I see the problem. the English label for the ship is in error, as it is a single ship. I have fixed thus, you were right to revert my changes Vicarage (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please do not add labels and descriptions for deprecated language codes zh-classical, zh-min-nan, zh-yue. They are deprecated language codes and should be added in lzh, nan, yue respectively. See https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q83761248&diff=prev&oldid=1918097901 . Thanks. 122.100.75.52 17:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Okay. Do you know a pywikibot-function to convert such codes, or can point me to a conversion table elsewhere? bdijkstra (overleg) 19:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

DEPRECATED_LANGUAGE_CODE_MAPPING, LanguageCode.php#42 : https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/core/+/refs/heads/master/includes/language/LanguageCode.php#42 122.100.75.52 02:09, 20 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I've also found Help:Languages, which has a longer list. I see that there are a few hundred items use these tags, I might write a script to migrate those if nobody else is already running such a task regularly. bdijkstra (overleg) 08:42, 20 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Very appreciated. -- 122.116.63.54 15:08, 20 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hoi bdijkstra,

Ik begrijp uit je reactie dat die eigenschap alleen voor personen geldt, maar hoe voeg ik dan de nationaliteit van een band toe? Mondo (talk) 20:07, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Wat is de nationaliteit van een band? Wat betekent dat? bdijkstra (overleg) 20:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Waar de band vandaan komt. Bij de meeste bands is dat toch wel één bepaald land: bij Scardust is dat Israël, bij Racoon is dat Nederland, bij K's Choice is dat België, etc. Niemand zal van die bands zeggen “o, dat is een Amerikaanse band”, want dat is niet waar ze vandaan komen. Hun land van nationaliteit is dus waar ze als band gevestigd zijn. Mondo (talk) 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Oké, hoe bepalen we waar een band is gevestigd? Als je bv. kijkt naar de rechtspersoon die de royalties beheert, dan is The Rolling Stones een Nederlandse band. bdijkstra (overleg) 20:26, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

We bepalen dat door waar onafhankelijke bronnen zeggen dat ze vandaan komen (en eventueel wat de band er zelf over zegt). The Rolling Stones mag juridisch dan wel in Nederland gevestigd zijn, maar geen enkele gezaghebbende bron zal zeggen dat The Rolling Stones een Nederlandse band is, noch zal de band dat zelf zeggen. Mondo (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Mondo: country of origin (P495): Q61085681#P495, Q1766948#P495, Q1595961#P495 & Q11036#P495. Multichill (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Maar dan klinkt het alsof ze eigenlijk uit een bepaald land komen, maar nu in een ander land zitten. Als ik naar de VS verhuis, dan zeg ik “Nederland is mijn land van oorsprong”. Misschien ligt het aan mij, maar ik vind dat wat betreft de nationaliteit van een band dus vreemd in de oren klinken. Mondo (talk) 20:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Je moet niet te zwaar tillen aan de exacte formulering van labels van properties. Ze zijn vaak iets te kort en ze ontberen vaak context, maar ze moeten bondig zijn. bdijkstra (overleg) 20:54, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Maar dat maakt het er niet makkelijker op, want dan moet ik bij elke eigenschap dus eerst een kwartier gaan nadenken wat er nog meer mee bedoeld zou kunnen worden? Mondo (talk) 20:56, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

De eigenschapspagina zou genoeg duidelijkheid moeten bieden. Zo niet, dan kan je nadenken, aanvullen en/of vragen stellen op de overlegpagina. bdijkstra (overleg) 21:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hoi, je doet deze wijziging maar het artikel heeft toch op de NLtalige wikipedia de titel "Vleeshal (Middelburg)" en niet Vleeshal Middelburg. Gaarne je uitleg hierbij. Vr groet Saschaporsche (talk) 08:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Heb je Help:Label gelezen, waar ik naar linkte? De Wikipedia-paginatitel is niet leidend (maar wel vaak de basis). Het is vaak een meer beschrijvende naam dan de titel van de Wikipedia-pagina. Ook "Vleeshal" zou een correct label zijn. Haakjes in een label zijn meestal ongewenst. bdijkstra (overleg) 12:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hmmm, eerlijk gezegd vind ik je antwoord niet echt verklarend. Er zijn honderden wikidata items met haakjes, dus dat is een slecht argument.

Inderdaad hoeft de label niet hetzelfde te zijn als de paginanaam in het Nederlands, maar jouw wijziging is in mijn ogen een BTNI wijziging want Vleeshal (Middelburg) is niet fout. Ik hoor graag je reactie. vr groet Saschaporsche (talk) 18:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Zie Help:Label#Disambiguation information belongs in the description. Het is alleen een acceptabel label (of alias) als bronnen naar het museum zouden verwijzen met die haakjes erbij. bdijkstra (overleg) 18:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

P.S. Er zijn honderden Wikidata-bewerkers die de regels niet kennen, dus dat is een slecht argument. bdijkstra (overleg) 18:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Bitbotje has modified Oldenburg–Bremen railway (Q802019) by removing an alias, but I think that thoses aliases should be kept because they contain another hyphen char, so in case some is searching for the exact item with another hyphen he maybe would not find the item?! -- Gerd Fahrenhorst (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The removed alias was exactly the same as the label (same sequence of Unicode characters), so the edit was correct. Also I think all (sane) search engines consider all hyphens as equal, but I'm not 100% sure about that. bdijkstra (overleg) 12:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes it was the same code, sorry, I was wrong. I am not sure about the search engines, but this edit was no problem. -- Gerd Fahrenhorst (talk) 12:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

No worries. bdijkstra (overleg) 18:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply