Talk:Islamism

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

A4700 g genral of 410503 152.57.192.92 (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

This used to be a separate article but after a vote it was moved here as a section. Wikipedia prevents it from becoming a separate article since the vote has been made against it. Trouble is, it's quite long, and this article is already too long. I'm going to summarize it and put a main article link to Londonistan (term)

Here's the summary --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

For those who object I suggest they create an Islamism in Europe article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Not only this so called "Islamic Flag" is out of place, but the whole description and meaning of it seem to be taken out of some B-movie involving a stereotypical plot about "terrism". Either provide sources that it is indeed an "Islamic Flag" and that the description is true, or it will be deleted in accordance to WP:NOCITE. --Kray0n (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

According to the same principles of notability and common agreement as applied to nazism being right-wing - popular tendency is to put islamism on the left wing of the political axis, and because Wikipedia is not a matter of original research, this tendency should result in Islamism actually being counted as left-wing on Wikipedia as well. The argument can be lifted verbatim from the article about nazism being right-wing. Maybe someone who knows the system here better can make the required changes, although I can provide references to individuals calling Islamism left-wing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.136.254 (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

What? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

http://picpaste.com/warning-about-islamism-00ToI1QX.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.106.151.118 (talk) 23:19, 6 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I trimmed this from the Islamism#Relation between Islam and Islamism section

Scholars like like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi have argued that all the actions of the Prophet Muhammad do not form an example for Muslims to follow, a sunnah. He holds that the da'wah (preaching and propagation) by a Messenger of God has targets defined by God and are specific to him. The role of the individual believer, the scholars and even a state with Muslim domination is different from that of a Prophet. The Prophet can after making the message clear to his addressees, under God's direction, fight the rejecters of the message. The Qur'an, after this stage in the Prophetic mission of Muhammad, did not leave the polythiests of Arabia with an option to live and adhere to polythiesm. They were to be executed if they did not enter Islam. This option is not available to any after the Prophet since no one can know who is rejecting the Message knowingly for no one is in a position to interact with God and no one receives revelation from Him.Political Canon of Islam

Reason: The article is already very long, the author is not particularly notable, and the text better belongs in Criticism of Islamism or Political aspects of Islam. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

An anon poster keesp adding Ismet Özel as a central figure of Islamism. He is an elected leader of a large country, but his he influential as an islamist? Does anyone have a source stating he is a central figure? In the mean time I'm deleting it again. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC) Whos saud Al Qaeda is Islamist, or have any relation with islam? Wikipedia in my eye is losing its respect, its so racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Okay, this article is pretty dumb as it is. It should be linked with other racist and imperialist terms like Cracker and White Trash. The criticism section should not be a criticism of "Islamism" as a movement, which doesn't exist, but a criticism of the simpletons who coined this term in the first place. The word "Islam" itself means "submission". Sure, there are Islamic people -25 percent of the world, the world's fastest growing religion, etc.... But someone who subscribes to Islam is a "Muslim" -i.e., "one who submits". Okay, so some non-religionists and Christianists on Fox news and CNN use the term "Islamist" everday -doesn't mean its not a bigoted stereotype. This article should not be deleted, but should be put in the category of stereotypes and hate-speech. Remember, as Edward Said points out, there is a long history of purposivly mislabeling Muslims -who were for centuries called "Mohammedans", just as much of the media refused to call Cassius Clay by his real name Muhammad Ali. Lets rewrite the criticism section here and make sure readers know that this terms is a wilfull misrepresentation and not a description of anything at all. Teetotaler 5 January, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.81.197 (talk) 17:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

As the article says, al jazeera uses the term islamist. Are they simipletons and racists? --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

African-Americans often use the term 'nigger' to refer to themselves, that doesnt stop the term from being an ethnic slur. Similiarly, al jazeera using the term islamist to refer to themselves doesnt validate the use of the term as a non-racist term. 203.128.4.254

What validates it's use as a non-racist term is that "Islamism" refers to a political movement, not a race. Aside from that do you think there is a difference between gangsta bad boy talk and one of the leading world news agencies? Do you think an influential political movement of Muhammad Iqbal, Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Abul Ala Maududi, Sayyid Qutb, Hasan al-Banna, and Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, deserves a term to describe it? --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Islamism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

I deleted edits by 95.147.234.97 (and he has restored them) as they are unsourced opinions, the topic (of diversity in Islam and Islamism) is already covered, and the article is already very long. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Why does Radical Islam redirect here? Is there no way to distinguish violent Jihadists and the poltics of Al Queda from other more moderate Muslims? Bachcell (talk) 00:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

(I fixed your link.) Because someone created it as a redirect to here, plain and simple. Should someone wish to turn Radical Islam into a separate article from this one, possibly as an offshoot of this one, then it will be otherwise. —Largo Plazo (talk) 03:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

This is racist, how come all the citations are from christian sources? HUH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC) How about radical christianity and jewish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

If Islam is a universal and interracial religion, then it follows that any discussion, negative or otherwise, about it's spread throughout the world cannot be deemed "racist". Logic trumps bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gutumnbagem (talk • contribs) 09:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

An editor can't pull out a quote by someone, and accuse the quote of being Islamist. A reliable source needs to have made that allegation.

This is the same as pulling a quote from Daniel Pipes, and putting it at Islamophobia as an example. A reliable source needs to have made the allegation.Bless sins (talk) 11:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Amanisa please stop putting this section in the article.

NYT: Bigotry in Islam, The Islamic world represses women, spawns terrorism, is prone to war, resists democracy and promotes bigotry against Jews (anti-semitism) [180], The Daily Telegraph: Islamic bigotry, In revealing that violent, intolerant prejudice continues to be preached, even by women, in centres of "moderate Islam." [181] ....

This is an article about the political movement Islamism, not the religion Islam! Your text is not written in wikipedia format and not encyclopedic. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please stop your edit war, it's highly relative. This is about 'Islamic activism' AKA Political Islam, AKA Islamism. It's written in encylopedic form, though some improvement can help...

Not sure I follow your real "objection"? Is it that you prefer us to insert this valuable information in the Islam page?

If you want more info about Islamic bigotry, we can provide more.

AmAnisa (talk) 23:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

This is absurd. Edits must be based on consensus. AmAnisa was bold[1] (a good thing). BoogaLouie disagreed with the edits (meaning that no consensus existed) and so reverted the edits, requesting that the suggestions be posed on the talk page. That, as far as I can tell, is where we stand. AmAnisa, I have reverted your edits; please take your ideas to the talk page. Let's please avoid resorting to dispute resolution.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 02:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Presently, AmAnisa's section on bigotry remains.

I object to the section for three primary reasons:

1. It is not, to my knowledge, a significant component of Islamism, which is political Islam. BoogaLouie is correct; the section addresses bigotry used in conjunction with Islam, not any component of Islamism. The section never addresses Islamism, failing even to use the term. The second sub-section even begins by introducing "Islamic bigotry". Meanwhile, the section fails to assert any relationship between Islamism and bigotry coupled with Islam.

2. Your edit is entirely non-neutral and seems dedicated to painting Islamism in an overtly negative light. The quotations are entirely opinion, and your section uses neologisms such as "jihadi". It reads almost like a this-is-why-I-think-Islam-is-bad section. I see no statistics, no facts, and no opposing perspectives.

3. The citations are garbage. Editorials and random blogs do not constitute legitimate sources. Thanks to your edits, I now know who Mark Humphrey is, but his opinion on Islam is not relevant to an encyclopedic article on Islamism. Neither is Christopher Hitchens's. With the possible exception of #197, not a single source is credible; they're all blogs and editorials.

If you verify the relevance of bigotry in Islam to the Islamist movement using reliable secondary resources, I'll help add a section on bigotry. Until/unless an clear link is demonstrated by a legitimate source, I think it should be removed entirely.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 05:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Agree that the sources are not reliable. Also, I don't see the sources accusing Islamists directly (they make broad comments about Muslims and Arabs). Perhaps, with a lot of caution, this material can be moved to articles about the authors (to show what the author's opinions are of radical Islam, bigotry, racism, Arab-Israeli conflict etc).Bless sins (talk) 17:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Good. Some of the referenced authors have WP entries already, including Mark Humphrey and Christopher Hitchens, so their ideas on Islam and Islamism can be added there. Also, perhaps some the content, if properly cited, could be added to Criticism of Islamism. The new section has certainly trespassed on POV territory and does not comply with WP:CITE.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 06:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Guys, I don't see anything with criticizing the undisputed bigotry in Islam, that user did not post it in Islam, which makes it even more moderate and less contentious. If someone has a problem with markhumphrey, still doesn't make it unreliable. why do the pro-Islamism keep on in the edit war while no consensus was reached?190.122.171.58 (talk) 21:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Actually, it looks like consensus HAS been reached...see above. --Alan (talk) 00:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

AmAnisa has been blocked as a sock of User:Toothie3. It wouldnt surprise me if this IP were the same user. nableezy - 23:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yep. 190.122.171.58's very first edit[2] was re-adding the bigotry section, which happened immediately after AmAnisa's block. Its second edit[3] was this comment. Its third edit[4] was re-adding the bigotry section, again. Looks awfully suspicious.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 17:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

This article does mention even smaller movements, but fails to mention the Pakistan movement and the resultant blood-soaked partition of India. Without doubt, Pakistan movement is one of the most quintessential pieces of islamism in all of history. I am not used to this editing stuff, so i request editors to please see to this. 117.204.80.116 (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, fine to use term like "Islamism" and "Christianism" to represent political movements within these religions, if we do the same also for "Judaism", Buddhism", "Hinduism" etc.

However, you will notice that for other religions, the suffix "-ism" in no way carries a political connotation but rather describes the lump sum of religious content within the religion. E.g. Judaism (V. 13.10.2010, 12:12) "Judaism is the "religion, philosophy, and way of life" of the Jewish people." And Buddhism: Buddhism is a religion and philosophy encompassing a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices, largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha (Pāli/Sanskrit "the awakened one").

By contrast Islamism: "Islamism is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system, and that modern Muslims must return to their roots of their religion, and unite politically." And "Christianism" as above.

Shouldn't we be more consistent in application of the suffix "-ism"? And preferably use it only to apply to a body of religious content, as opposed to political movements, to avoid confusion.

To be consistent I have also added this discussion to the "Christianism" page.

There is criticism i Islamism, and radical Islam, but no criticism in radical christianity, or christianism, Wikipedia is so racist and annoying — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

--Musa Emre (talk) 10:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Musa Emre - I see point. Potentially someone with a negative POV regarding Islam wrote this lead. What you really have to do though is find a variety of reliable sources on this issue and see how they define the word. NickCT (talk) 12:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please see Islamism#History of usage for clarification. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

The English language is not always logical or consistent (Why "rapist" and not "raper"? Is rape an ideology with theorists?) The issue is that there is an ideology of Islamism and it needs a word, even if the people professing the ideology do not like the use of that word. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

I've restored a short paragraph in the lead that was deleted that contains the sentence "Islamism is a controversial term and definitions of it sometimes vary." --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

The terms Islamist" and "Islamism" are problematical because: --They are almost entirely used by outside critics and are not accepted by their target. Therefore they are not neutral terms. --They have no agreed on definitions --They are most often used with progandistic intent. Note the fact there is no term "Christianist" in common usage even though there is a similar (though much smaller) movement among Christians. This nonparallelism partly reflects the fact that speakers who use the term "Islamist" are overwhelmingly from Christianized countries. We do need a term for politically mobilized fundamentalist Islamic ideology, and unfortunately there is no alternative term that is in wide use. At the very least this article needs a separate section pointing out how problematic these terms is. The section on "relation with Islam" touches on these issues but has the wrong header for such a discussion. Burressd (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please read Islamism#History of usage, comment above and revised lead for clarification. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

We need citations as to which cou ntires this group operates in.Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

WP:Weasel tag was added in September 2010 but ther has been no specific discussion of what problem it refers to ... unless you include complaints above (Christianism, Islamism, Judaism and Contested Word) about the term Islamism itself and there not being an eqivalent article on Christianism in wikipedia. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

Typed in "islamic fanaticism" and got redirected here... WTF???? --Spmoura (talk) 14:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Those possibly interested could base themselves upon this article written by Srđa Trifković ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87 ) at http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/green-corridor-in-balkans.html .

I'll also put a link to this suggestion on the discussion page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.208.90.139 (talk) 07:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)Reply

Dialectical Logic of Islamists (i.e., of the Lost):

Dialectical logic is found in the core of Eastern and Western thought. It is a common flaw to the human species. Although the various human cultures have developed their own methods of using this flaw, it is not simply a cultural defect. However, since each culture uses this flaw to to defend and to define itself, every attempt to correct the flaw is perceived to be an attack on the culture itself. Islamists are particularly sensitive to this perceived attack; because the dialectical Absolute of the Koran is found in the attempt to synthesize the Old and New Testaments (i.e., "the Book"). --FinalNotice (talk) 19:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

The article should include recent developments of the Arab Spring ... admittedly still in progress. --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

I found a text that questions the whole existence of islamism, saying that islam and islamism are actually the same thing.[5] I think that the source is not quite good enough, but once someone finds a better one, it could be included in the article as a criticism. A parallel: If someone heavily or even violently supports democracy, then is he a democraticist whose idea is democraticism, or is he simply a democrat? --Uikku (talk) 21:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Its as real as Christianism, i.e. no it doesn't really exist in any real sense. Yes people of the Islamic faith also form governments, and just like every other religion, their values system and moral framework influence their politics. Not that I think this article shouldn't be here. Wikipedia is all about hair thin distinctions and the separation of these isms comes from the secular crowd I think.Drunkenduncan (talk) 00:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

Islamism is a concocted term by various Orientalists, neo cons and Israelis. Islamists on the other hand which started out as a derogatory term has now changed and become normative for describing Islamic activists esp in Arab spring revolutions in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia. This redirection to Islamism should be stopped and islamist should have its own page along with links to the islamic activists and movements involved in the Arab spring revolutions. For example islamist.com seems to be a pro islamist news web site (http://www.islamist.com/index.phphttp://www.islamist.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wholetruth123 (talk • contribs) 19:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

we have to have a reliable source WP:RS saying the term was "concocted by various Orientalists, neo cons and Israelis". The article does state that Islamism is a "controversial term", and it deals with the controversy:

The concept Islamism is controversial, not just because it posits a political role for Islam, but also because its supporters believe their views merely reflect Islam, while the contrary idea that Islam is, or can be, apolitical is an error. Scholars and observers who do not believe that Islam is a political ideology include Fred Halliday, John Esposito and Muslim intellectuals like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi.

Islamists have asked the question, "If Islam is a way of life, how can we say that those who want to live by its principles in legal, social, political, economic, and political spheres of life are not Muslims, but Islamists and believe in Islamism, not [just] Islam?"^[1] Similarly, a writer for the International Crisis Group maintains that "the conception of 'political Islam'" is a creation of Americans to explain the Iranian Islamic Revolution. In reality, apolitical Islam was an historical fluke of the "shortlived heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970," and it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation.^[2]

On the other hand, Muslim-owned and run media (not just Western media) have used the terms "Islamist" and "Islamism" — as distinguished from Muslim and Islam — to distinguish groups such as the Islamic Salvation Front in Algeria^[3] or Jamaa Islamiya in Egypt,^[4] which actively seek to implement Islamic law, from mainstream Muslim groups.

Another source distinguishes Islamist from Islamic "by the fact that the latter refers to a religion and culture in existence over a millennium, whereas the first is a political/religious phenomenon linked to the great events of the 20th century". Islamists have, at least at times, defined themselves as "Islamiyyoun/Islamists" to differentiate themselves from "Muslimun/Muslims".^[5]

1. ^ Abid Ullah Jan, Wikipedia: Good Intentions, Horrible Consequences, Al-Jazeerah Op-Ed, 27 February 2006. (archive.org accessed 2007-10-24).
2. ^ Understanding Islamism Middle East/North Africa Report N°37 2 March 2005
3. ^ Algerian group joins al-Qaeda brand
4. ^ Egypt frees 900 Islamist militants
5. ^ Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, The 9/11 Commission Report, W.W. Norton & Company, New York, (2004), p.562

--BoogaLouie (talk) 18:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I see many references in Islamic movements news and some literature referring to themselves as Islamist. I see none refer to their thinking as Islamism. Booga I checked all your references above except Abidullah Jan which the link was not working. The only mention of Islamism was in the International crisis group which is yet another neo con hydra and is not an Islamist or Muslim site. Booga, please clarify your terms and distinguish between the usage of Islamist and Islamism. Do not be evasive in referring to both while the citation only refers to Islamist. Booga could you give us some citations of Islamic movements referring to Islamism as an ideology?.

As a quick search for Islamist on Ikhwanweb.com via google generates 97,600 hits with numerous references in self descriptions of Islamic political parties identifying themselves as Islamist. Why Islamists Are Better Democrats - Ikhwanweb or Tunisia's Islamist Nahda Wins Impressive Landslide Victory

The term Islamist and Islamism are distinct and different. Islamist is how Islamic political movements describe themselves while Islamism is a term used primarily by their detractors. Therefore The wiki entry for Islamist should not be redirected to Islamism. Free speech and free debate should prevail.

Wholetruth123 (talk) 22:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

@shadihamid Shadi Hamid I don't get why ppl have such a problem w- the word "Islamist." That's what (most) Islamists call themselves. There's no btr alternative.

Director of Research at the Brookings Doha Center & Fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution. Shamid [at] Brookings.edu. Http://www.brookings.edu/experts/hamids.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.19.161.171 (talk) 07:43, 6 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

English is a very hard language for non-native speakers. I will try to explain.

• Islamism is a noun for describing an abstract political concept - like national socialism or communism. Nobody would stand up and say, "I am a communism!", though they might say, "I am a communist."
• Islamist is both a noun and an adjective.

• As an adjective, it is correct to refer to islamist beliefs ("Islamist" being the adjective, and "Beliefs" the noun). There are also adjectives "national socialist" and "communist".
• As a noun, it refers to people. Someone can be a communist, or a national socialist, or an islamist. It is wrong, to use this noun to refer to an abstract political concept.

--Toddy1 (talk) 16:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Toddy, Thank you kindly for your lecture on basic English. I am a native speaker having grown up in Michigan. Kindly avoid such insulting comments. The term Islamism is a concoction used typically by various neo con think tank types along with various Orientalists. Islamist are Muslims who are active in the political arena. There is no such thing as Islamism as far as the Muslims are concerned. It is is simply Islam which encompasses both personal religious observations and societal obligations to establish equity and Justice (Islamic term ::Adl).

The redirect of Islamists to Islamism is similar to redirecting African Americans to nigger. It is highly biased and insulting. Complete depiction of the entire movement of political Islam (Islamist) using a term derived from their opposition (Islamism) is very biased and unbalanced.

Wholetruth123 (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I am sorry. I had seen some of your comments and deleted contributions, and assumed that you were probably a Palestinian, for whom English was a foreign language, making edits in good faith. I see now that I was entirely wrong in my assumptions about you. Please accept my apologies.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Toddy, appreciate the kind word. I am trying in all good faith to get this redirect of Islamist to Islamism stopped and have an independent page for Islamist where it can cover some of the movements involved in the Arab spring revolutions. I strongly feel that many wiki readers would benefit from a frank look at the workings of Islamist parties in the middle east with both pro and con viewpoints clearly elucidated. The Islamism entry can stay and the debate on Islamism can stay as it is.

Which editor or editors can undo the redirect?

Wholetruth123 (talk) 20:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

There is a pattern:

• Communist redirects to communism.
• Marxist redirects to Marxism.
• Socialist redirects to socialism.
• National socialist redirects to Nazism.
• Conservative redirects to conservatism.
• Capitalist redirects to capitalism.
• Islamist redirects to Islamism.

--Toddy1 (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

So following your logic stupid should be redirected to stupidism?

Islamism is not an ism. On the other hand there are clearly people who are Islamists. Islamist generally describes politically active people following the Islamic faith. Islamism is like the term Mohammedanism which was constructed by 19th century orientalists looking to justify European colonial rules and policies. Islamism is a construct of the same modern day Orientalists as the old Imperial orientalists who coined the term Mohammedanism

Another way to explain it is to redirect Christ to Christism. Christism is an artificial construct and no Christians refer to themselves as following Christism. WT Wholetruth123 (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC) And the N word simply means black. Same way a sombrero means a hat? The term Islamist is derogatory for Muslims. We don't like it. You cannot seperate the Rules of the Shariah from the lives on a Muslim. Granted that there are some Muslims that do not adhere to it totally but that does not mean that those who do are now "Islamists". It just means they are more practicing Muslims. I'm surprised this hasn't caused more of a stir yet. BrYounus (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2012 (UTC)Reply

This statement "In reality, apolitical Islam was an historical fluke of the "shortlived heyday of secular Arab nationalism between 1945 and 1970," and it is quietist/non-political Islam, not Islamism, that requires explanation" has no place in a Wikipedia article. Please remove it or provide evidence of the said condition. (A reference is not evidence.) SirteP (talk) 15:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)Reply

Islam by nature is political so why the need for Islamism title. Giftanodegiftanode (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2012 (UTC)Reply

It looks like someone was messing around in photoshop and decided to make this guy trippy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flobee (talk • contribs) 04:16, 20 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

As many talk page commenters have pointed out, "Islamism" is a poorly-constructed category applied by outsiders with an ax to grind. The article itself needs major changes—for example, "history" comes quite late, after SNYTH-y seeming sections like "Relation with Islam".

How about focusing this article on the term "Islamism" and those who have created and used this term? The content related to political Islam could be moved to an article called "Political Islam" or merged with "Political aspects of Islam". At bare minimum, "political Islam" should redirect to the latter page. If you compare searches on Google Scholar, you will see how these terms are typically used in the scholarly literature—"Islamism" is used more often to describe European and European–American conceptions of political Islam.

Peace, groupuscule (talk) 23:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Just jumping in quickly Islamism is a modern neologism , and that should be in the lead, there is no historical reference to it. While the thing that Islamism is trying to describe is an integral part of the Islamic religion. Hence from the POV of some it is like saying there is Islam and then there is the Hajj, and people who follow Hajj are called Hajjist. (if you see my point). Whatever -- I think it should be merged with Political Islam. Or explicitly stated (if not in the lead already that it is a Western look at the "other"/--Inayity (talk) 13:27, 3 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Separation of religion and state is a modern concept, so historically there was no need to label those who rejected the idea. For Islam, the issue didn't even arise until Ataturk's reforms in the 1920s. Kauffner (talk) 12:32, 15 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

It is a subject of study and therefore should be treated like any other ideology. See for example the number of books on the subject by serious writers.[6] Of course its adherents do not call themselves Islamists and popular media misuse the term. However the same applies to many other terms used to describe extreme political positions.

TFD (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islamism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "allamaiqbal.com":

• From Muhammad Iqbal: "Allama Iqbal – Biography" (PHP). 26 May 2006. Retrieved 2011-01-07. {{cite web}}: |first= missing |last= (help)
• From Pakistan: Iqbal Academy (26 May 2006). "Allama Iqbal – Biography" (PHP). Retrieved 7 January 2011.

Reference named "books.google.co.uk":

• From Democracy: Flyvbjerg, Bent, 2001, Making Social Science Matter: Why Social Inquiry Fails and How It Can Succeed Again (Cambridge University Press), p. 154.
• From Muhammad Iqbal: Schimmel, Annemarie (1962). Gabriel's wing: a study into the religious ideas of Sir Muhammad Iqbal. Brill Archive. pp. 34–45.
• From Abu Bakr: Atlas of the Prophet's biography: places, nations, landmarks, By Shawqī Abū Khalīl, Pg205

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Why did you delete these citations without even an edit summary?? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:26, 21 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Edits by Ahmed 313-326 have, among other things, eliminated the term "theodemocracy" that Maududi used. There is plenty of evidence this concept was important to his ideas (see here) --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Modudi never talked about "theodemocracy". In "Khilafet o mlookiat" he has condemned the whole idea of distinct institution of clergy in Islam. he was simply a Islamist democrat" not a "theodemocrat". --Ahmed 313-326 (talk) 01:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC) [pasted from Ahmed talk page]

Do you have any evidence "Modudi never talked about 'theodemocracy'"? Why do numerous authors say he did talk about "theodemocracy"? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

it is a matter of meaning and understanding of word "theodemocracy". --Ahmed 313-326 (talk) 04:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I imagine it is, but you are not arbiter of it. If we have numerous authors saying he used the term and/or using the term in explaining his ideas there is no reason to delete the term. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I saw this dispute listed at Third Opinion. This is not a third opinion, but just a question for Ahmed 313-326 with the hope that the matter may be made clearer for me or for someone else to give a third opinion. As BoogaLouie says, several of the citations connect the term to Modudi, and at least a couple of them directly attribute it to him, saying that he invented the term. Chasing down the footnotes in some of them, it appears that Modudi used the term in his book, The Islamic Law and Constitution. Ahmed, I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean in your comments, above. It's not clear whether you mean that he didn't use the term — "Modudi never talked about 'theodemocracy'" — or whether you mean that he did use it, but his use of it is being misunderstood or misused — "it is a matter of meaning and understanding of word 'theodemocracy'". Could you clarify your position, please? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Although Google books provides only a snippet view of the article by Maududi, he uses the term "theo-democracy" (his quotes).[7] He appears not to have realized that the term was originally coined by Mormons. TFD (talk) 19:14, 22 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

While editors have been waiting for Ahmed to reply, he's gone and made another deletion (I should have caught before) here deleting a sourced sentence
It has been said of Sirhindi that he 'gave to Indian Islam the rigid and conservative stamp it bears today.'
.. and making no edit summary to explain why. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

There is no point to the quotations in the lead [of wikipedia], which have in brackets [to clarify the point]. If there is a ref, you can just state the points without the quotes. --Inayity (talk) 14:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Should edits deleting the word "theodemocracy" -- describing the ideas of famed Islamist writer Abul A'la Maududi -- and deleting some other citations (with no edit summary) be allowed to stand.

As explained above, Mawdudi and numerous authors have used the word "theodemocracy" to describe his ideas.

• Have brought the issue up on the talk page (see above). did not get much of response from the editor (User:Ahmed_313-326)
• Listed dispute at Third Opinion (april 21 or 22).
• A couple of people responded, one asking ahmed a question (april 22)
• Left notices on ahmed's talk page
• Ahmed did not respond again on the talk page but in the mean time made another edit deleting a sourced sentence (april 24, see above) and not giving an edit summary
• Posted the problem on Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard, ahmed was notified. No reply from him. Notice closed "Inactivity of Ahmed 313-326"
• ChrisGualtieri, who closed the dispute resolution case for lack of reply from ahmed, suggested I try Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct but I wasn't sure it would qualify as it appears I am the only user whose clashed with ahmed in this particular issue.
• Since then Ahmed has been active and has gotten an edit warring notice
  --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:57, 15 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
• one other thing, one of ahmed's edits was reverted by User Doc Tropics May 13. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Restore deleted edits (for reasons given above). --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
• Restore the content is verified to a source. If the individual wishes to dispute whether the source is an RS, they can begin a discussion at WP:RSN. If it is found to be reliable, keep the content; if it is not, remove the content or find an RS to verify the content.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
• Restore I commented on this matter above. An editor claims that Maududi never used the term. But a snippet taken from an article by him shows that he did, although he placed it in quotes.[8] He does not appear to know that the Mormons had earlier used this term (why would he?) so we should not imply that he was using it in the same sense, unless sources say he was. TFD (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
• Restore with note - The term 'Theodemocracy' is a bit of a neologism, specifically attribute it to Abul A'la Mawdudi's writings and cite it with two notes, or even expand a full footnote to list the neologism as receiving considerable comment from third parties and identifying the idea as such. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
• Restore, though it doesn't really matter at this point, as consensus seems to have been reached. I do want to add that I thoroughly reviewed the RfC and details, though, and agree with the above opinions on the matter, in particular those of RightCowLeftCoast and TFD. No comment on ChrisGualtieri's note, as it isn't part of this RfC, but it is an interesting comment that's worth delving into  . --Jackson Peebles (talk) 06:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

My comment is part of this RFC. Even a simple Google search shows the term being used and referenced back to Maududi/Mawdudi numerous times. I just wanted to make clear that because it isn't in a dictionary and their is an active dispute, citing it is a requirement. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

My apologies if my comments were interpreted to be an attack on your position. I viewed the issue as a separate (but still important) issue, but I see your point. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 14:15, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Restore. Seems legit to me. I agree with taking the issue to RSN, if there's a dispute over the source. Otherwise, it should stand. As a neologism, it should probably make an explicit statement of its notability, to prevent further misunderstandings from zealous editors. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Since the time of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and the huge influence of Kemalist ideology on the formation of the Turkish Republic, Turkey has been widely considered the most secular majority-Muslim government in the middle east, and the government least influenced by Islamists. Reading this article, it appears to imply the exact opposite. -- Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 18:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Compare with Communist Poland - it had a secular government but a religious population. TFD (talk) 19:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

True, but I thought the definition of "Islamist" in this article was a Muslim who wants government to play some religious roles rather than having a purely secular government (as in Turkey). So I would think we should consider the majority of Turkey's population as devout practitioners of Islam but not Islamists. -- Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 22:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

What does the role that the government played have to do with what role citizens thought it should play? TFD (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

The voters of Turkey have voted to maintain the most secular and least Islamist majority-Muslim government in the middle east for about a hundred years. This is not consistent with the section's claim that Turkey has a strong Islamist tradition, therefore I don't think it is written from a NPOV. -- Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

And the voters of Poland voted to maintain one of the most secular and least Christian majority governments in Europe for about fifty years. TFD (talk) 10:41, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

If there was a article that said "Poland has a strong Christianist tradition", then I think the NPOV of that article should be questioned as well. You get that many devout Christians are not Christianists, and many devout practitioners of Islam are not Islamists, right? -Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

We should ask what makes it "strong"? I suggest removing this. Liesbeth98 (talk) 12:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Copying the following from WP:Christianism for clarification -Thebuscamebyandigoton (talk) 14:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Christianism had various definitions over the years. It was originally defined as "the Christian religion" or "the Christian world",^[1] with cognates in languages like Spanish (cristianismo) or French (christianisme) retaining this meaning. In recent years, Christianism (or Christianist) has also been used as a descriptive term of Christian fundamentalists, mostly in the United States, for the ideology of the Christian right, meant as a counterpoint to "Islamism".^[2][3] Writing in 2005, the New York Times language columnist William Safire attributed the term (in its modern usage) to conservative blogger Andrew Sullivan, who wrote on June 1, 2003 :^[2]

I have a new term for those on the fringes of the religious right who have used the Gospels to perpetuate their own aspirations for power, control and oppression: Christianists. They are as anathema to true Christians as the Islamists are to true Islam.

The liberal bloggers Tristero and David Neiwert used the term shortly after.^[4][5] Sullivan later expanded on his usage of the term in a Time magazine column.^[6] Uses of the term can be found dating back to the seventeenth century, but these are unrelated to its modern meaning.^[2]

There is no Christian equivalent of Islamism. The Christian Right for example do not plan to eliminate the U.S. federal, state and municipal governments, laws, borders, and citizenship. For example, to them Mexicans are foreigners, not "Christians" with the right to live and work anywhere within Christendom.

TFD (talk) 17:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

>> Whither political Islam? (Lihaas (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)).Reply

A Word About tide, discussants think unclear, indistinct, not prezies. That's why print with long sentences, kompleziert, little understood. Or, do it to blur the issue, do not talk interesting. Show Psy - Simptomen / Sorry /.1-CVH-420Peg (talk) 14:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I have flagged the "Counter-response" section as "dubious" insofar as it appears to confuse "Islamism" with "terrorism."* In my research, there is no indication that the USG has explicitly (or even implicitly) engaged in efforts to undermine political expressions of Islam (Islamism). The section was a bit too "post hoc ergo propter hoc" for Wikipedia. To be clear, the USG does does seek to counter violent terrorists who profess a faith in Islam, but does not (as far as I can tell) seek to counter Islamists or Islamism. The section does mention "violent Islamists," which is closer to reality, but the USG is still explicitly oriented toward "terrorism." It is below the usual standard of Wikipedia to conflate Islamism and terrorism without a much deeper discussion than what is included here.

• This also appears to have hidden the section, which was not my intent, but I am not savvy enough to know how to flag a section as questionable without hiding it entirely. I welcome changes by Wikipedia gurus that displays the section but notes my critique. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TX Ciclista (talk • contribs) 18:44, 25 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Why do we need ^[who?] tags
(example: Some observers^[who?] suggest Islamism's tenets are less strict, and can be defined as a form of identity politics or "support for [Muslim] identity, authenticity, broader regionalism, revivalism, [and] revitalization of the community".^[1])
when a citation is given? It seems like an excuse to mess up the article.

Here is a example of even worse use:

In this context, the publications of Jamal ad-din al-Afghani (1837–97), Muhammad Abduh (1849–1905) and Rashid Rida (1865–1935) preached Islamic alternatives to the political, economic, and cultural decline of the empire.^[2] Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida formed the beginning of the Salafist movement,^{[3][4][5][6][7]} as well as the reformist Islamist movement.^[8]

Their ideas included the creation of a truly Islamic society under sharia law, and the rejection of taqlid, the blind imitation of earlier authorities, which they^[who?] believed deviated from the true messages of Islam.^[9] Unlike some later Islamists, Salafists strongly emphasized the restoration of the Caliphate.^[10]

A sentence talking about Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida forming a movement is followed by a sentence using the pronoun "they" ... which is tagged with ^[who?].
I ask you good people, who reading this is not going to make the obvious assumption that "they" refers to Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida? what reason can for their be for the tag except to make the article look bad to the casual reader? --BoogaLouie (talk)

--BoogaLouie (talk) 16:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

Is prophet Muhammad a Islamist too? He was political by establishing the first Muslim state in Medina. Was prophet Muhammad a central figure in Islamism, should we include that into the article? Moorrests (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

No. Information in articles must present what reliable conclude, not our conclusions. TFD (talk) 16:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Moorrests, the question isn't whether we think Muhammad was an "Islamist", it's whether we can demonstrate that using reliable sources. It's not appropriate to stick his name into a sourced statement based on our own reasoning, suggesting the source says that when really it's our own original research. EastTN (talk) 21:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Can somebody explain to me what is the difference between these two articles Political aspects of Islam and Islamism? Aren't they talking about the same topic. Shouldn't they be merged? Moorrests (talk) 21:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Jamal ad din afghani is not the originator of Salafism. His movement used the word salafi but now what is known as salafism today was established by the Wahhabi movement.The salafi movement is known today as Islamic modernism.It ispired the Contemporary islamist movements.

As for contemporary Salafism.It is the state religion of Saudi Arabia is according to Stephane Lacroix (a Postdoctoral Fellow and Lecturer at Sciences Po in Paris)

" As opposed to Wahhabism, Salafism refers here to all the hybridations that have taken place since the 1960s between the teachings of Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and other Islamic schools of thought. Al-Albani’s discourse can therefore be a form of Salafism, while being critical of Wahhabism"

(ref: https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/17210/ISIM_21_Al-Albani-s_Revolutionary_Approach_to_Hadith.pdf?sequence=1 , page-2)

and according to Dillon, Michael R:

" Salafism of 19th century under such key figures as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Rida, which were referred to as Islamic modernists. Their form of Salafism was fundamentally different from contemporary Salafism

(ref: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a509109.pdf , page-33)

The confusion you are facing can be understood from below qoute:

" There has been some confusion in recent years because both the Islamic modernists and the contemporary Salafis refer (referred) to themselves as al-salafiyya, leading some observers to erroneously conclude a common ideological lineage. The earlier salafiyya, however, were predominantly rationalist Asharis. During an interview in Jordan, one Salafi emphasized this distinction by citing Muhammad Abduh’s interpretation of the jinn, a creature referenced in the Qur’an. According to this respondent, Abduh’s understanding of the jinn as microbes or germs demonstrates his rationalist credentials: not only does it indicate a metaphorical approach to the Qur’an, but it also implies the influence of the West on his thinking.17 Muhammad Abduh and other similar thinkers are frequently excoriated as deviant rationalists. Some go as far as to claim they were British agents, planted to specifically undermine the purity of Islam."

(ref: http://archives.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/WIKTOROWICZ_2006_Anatomy_of_the_Salafi_Movement.pdf ,Page-212)

Many more proofs can be found

Ejaz92 (talk) 14:22, 2 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Heroeswithmetaphors: I noticed that you redirected "Islamic extremist groups" to this page. Is there any distinction between Islamism and "Islamic extremism"? Jarble (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Not that I know of. (Heroeswithmetaphors) talk 16:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Heroeswithmetaphors: Why does Islamic extremist groups redirect to Islamism instead of Islamic extremism? Jarble (talk) 20:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I don't know. (Heroeswithmetaphors) talk 00:46, 9 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

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People seem to be very inclined to removing parties or groups they don't perceive as extremists or terrorists from the list near the bottom of the article. Are we listing Islamic extremists and terrorist groups? If yes, the list does not belong in this article because this article doesn't define Islamism as the same as Islamic extremism. Or are we listing organisations which fall into the definition of Islamism as put forth in this article (even the moderate interpretations like Moderation and Development Party in Iran and Justice and Development Party (Turkey) (AKP))? I just added an intro sentence for that section defining exactly what we're listing, but wanted more discussion before adding more groups. If a lot of people disagree with me that we should add AKP and MDP and other theocratic parties here, I think the definition of Islamism should be made far clearer in the article, since those two groups use Muslim identity politics to gain power, or have been widely described as such by others. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 20:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

Inasmuch as this is an English Language article, why do we have Arabic and Urdu characters in the introduction without including their English (Latin Alphabet) transliterations? This is typically done for foreign alphabets such as Greek. For example, in the Wikipedia article on Christ, the title is followed by the Greek source "ριστός", which is then Anglicized as "Christós". English speakers cannot ordinarily be expected to understand these entries without an Anglicized translation or transliteration. I am not suggesting that those non-English characters be removed, as they present valuable subsidiary information, however, it would be helpful to the reader should a competent editor add an English, i.e. Latin alphabet, transliteration. Tresmegistus (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello.

I have found various surveys that examine the views of Muslims around the world regarding different issues, including how many that prefer a system of Sharia law and its various applications.

Of particular interest was a survey in 2013 from the highly respected PEW Research Center, which had performed interviews with 38000 Muslims in 39 different predominantly Islamic countries.

http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I believe that it is in the public interest, and in line with Wikipedia's ideal role as an unbiased fact-based educator, to showcase the relevant information matter-of-fact without any distortions.

Thanks in advance for any help. David A (talk) 13:43, 11 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

Help and input would be very appreciated. David A (talk) 13:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

This survey is being used in Apostasy in Islam and Sharia, though I'm not sure how it would be used here. Eperoton (talk) 14:37, 15 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

Well, we could check through it for the average percentages that support Sharia, and its more severe applications. I also have links to several more statistical surveys, but this one is the most thorough and prominent that I know about. David A (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

Here is a list of survey results that I googled. The larger page itself is obviously very biased, but the linked opinion poll statistics seem useful and matter of fact regarding how large percentages that hold different extremist beliefs: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx David A (talk) 20:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

A cautious discussion of surveys on some issues associated with Islamism elsewhere in the article (especially Pew's sections "Islamic Political Parties" and "Religious Leaders’ Role in Politics" ) seems to be appropriate. I'm not sure about discussing Sharia support. As Pew's chapter illustrates, this is a complex subject, and it may be better left to the Sharia article. The other site seems to have mostly surveys on violence. I would also suggest naming the section "Surveys" or "Opinion polls". Islamism is more like socialism than catholicism in that a person may shift their opinion on these issues without a major change in their identity, hence "prevalence" sounds odd. Eperoton (talk) 22:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

Okay. That sounds sensible. Would you be willing to help out to sift through what may be relevant to include in such a section? I am not a scholar after all. I just read some articles citing PEW's survey, saw some videos by the Clarion Project, turned worried, and think that it seems to be in the public interest to know about the more reliable matter-of-fact statistics. David A (talk) 13:15, 16 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

I'm not exactly a scholar either, but I play one on WP. :) I'll try to review how this article defines the nebulous notion of Islamism and how Pew formulated their questions. Eperoton (talk) 03:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

Okay. Thank you for the help. If you wish, feel free to check through the list of surveys as well. David A (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

A question: Would it be more appropriate if I write a "statistical surveys" section for this page instead? David A (talk) 14:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

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Santasa99 deletes cited material saying that BH is an islamist state, with this comment: "(really, what should we quote, 2 obituaries as refs? 1 contradicting other - Editors need to prove its verifiability & notability WP:UNDUE ! not to mention, even if not contradictory, obituaries r insufficient for such claim of profound consequences.)"

Santasa99: Are you saying that BH is not an islamist state, and that is why you are deleting this material? Or are you deleting it because its inclusion gives WP:UNDUE weight to the source, even if the claim is true?

I have the impression that you have a dog in this race - most of the edits you've made seem to be related to former Yugoslavia. Are you pushing a POV?

FWIW, I will now give up here - I don't have time for wikipolitics, I'm not interested in wiki lawyering. I just try to make small improvements when I see defects in articles. MrDemeanour (talk) 07:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

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As has been noted in the section "Relation to Islam" Islamism is a controversial term. One could even argue that it is a typically Eurocentric colonialist term which prescribes Muslims the nature of their belief: On the one hand there is the good Islam, on the other hand and there is evil Islamism. This implies a philosophical question: Is Evil an essential part or the basic nature of Islam, as asserted by its critics? I do not know whether there has been done any serious - non-polemical - philosophical research on an academic level on this topic, but to me it seems clear that the answer to this question will be of prime importance for political decision making. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 10:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

As far as I understand, Islamism is defined as the political agenda to instill theocratic Sharia law as completely dominant, and above secular and democratic political systems. David A (talk) 14:08, 21 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but why is this political agenda not called Islam by western thinkers? The point is it is called Islam by those Muslims westerners call Islamists. What if we follow the logic of Islamists and view Islamism as true Islam and what western thinkers call Islam as an 'impure' Islam 'contaminated' by Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment values? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 20:13, 25 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Please note that WP is not a discussion forum (see WP:NOT#FORUM). Article talk pages are there for the sole purpose of discussing how to improve the corresponding article in accordance with WP policies. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 20:25, 25 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Dear Eperoton, I think that the article needs a chapter on the philosophical implications of the term Islamism, because every term has this kind of implications. So far the article empirically traces the history of the term and the controversies around it. However, the article does not yet describe the different philosophical backgrounds and prerequisites of its history as well as the controversies. I argue for introducing a deep structure into the article in a way a New Historicist would do it. This simply is the current academic standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 20:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Article content has to be backed up by reliable sources (WP:RS). If you're aware of academic sources dealing with this subject, you're welcome to summarize them in the article. Eperoton (talk) 20:48, 25 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

I will do some research on this, but it will take some time. Methodologically I suggest the following: Since Islam came about (and until at least its classical area) developed within an predominantly Christian, Jewish, Gnostic and Pagan environment the first question to ask will be what is genuine about Islam? Does Islam have anything Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism and Paganism do not have? If yes, is this genuine Islamic core what westerners call Islamism or is it what they call Islam? And what did the inventors of the term Islamism do with this core? If, on the other hand, Islam will turn out to be a 100% composite or patchwork religion the question will be why did the inventors of the term Islamism choose certain patches of Islam to be Islamistic and others to be Islamic? What is the agenda behind this? I do not know yet to what extent this kind of interreligious research has been done on Islam and the Qur'an. But I will find out. One thing is sure since these kind of questions are hotly debated for about 200 years now with regard to Christianity and Judaism (leading authorities being here for instance Peter Machinist from Harvard regarding the Hebrew Bible and the late Martin Hengel from Tubingen regarding the New Testament) the Wikipedia article will not deliver a final answer. Does anyone know who the leading authority for research on the Qur'an and Islam within their Christian, Jewish, Gnostic and Pagan backgrounds is? To my knowledge David Nirenberg from Chicago currently is dealing with these kind of issues in his research project "History as Prophecy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 09:34, 27 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Good places to look for current academic authorities on Islamic origins are Brill's Encyclopedia of the Quran and the Qur'an Seminar at Notre Dame. Just be sure you're aware of WP's no original research policy and particularly its editorial synthesis section. Eperoton (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

I have done some bibliographic research and come to the conclusion that it is not yet possible to deal with the philosophical implications of the term Islamism on an academic level. While there are a lot of opinions of writers, journalists, reverends, politicians, etc. out there on the topic, all of them biased, I have found almost nothing that meets academic standards. The only exception are the publications of the German orientalist Tilman Nagel. However, almost nothing by Tilman Nagel is translated into English. Tilman Nagel is a well known critic of Islam as well as an open freemason. In order to be able to deal with his research one needs to know Islamic sources in their original languages. Since I am not able to read Arabic, etc. I will not write about the books and articles of Prof. Nagel. However, he would be a starting point, even if one does not agree with him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.95.59.132 (talk) 14:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

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Sex segregation is the bloodline of Islam/Islamism.--98.88.130.250 (talk) 18:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)Reply

That may very well be, but you need to insert references. David A (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2016 (UTC)Reply

Also it is not, it is one fascite of Islamism. In fact Islamism is a morally and socially conservative fundamentalist take on Islam, of which Gender segregation (and Islam is not alone in this) is part (bit not the whole).Slatersteven (talk) 10:01, 19 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Per WP policy (WP:V, WP:NOR), to be added here, a definition has to match the phrasing given by some reliable source. It does not seem to appear in any of the citations. If you believe it does, please quote below the exact passage where it appears. Adding more citations that do not support the added content does not help you meet WP policy, so please stop trying to readd improper citations that have already failed verification. Eperoton (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

The body of the article has a reasonably extensive discussion of the diverse uses of the term "Islamism", but the lead doesn't do a good job summarizing it. The definition right away makes the misstep of asserting that Islamism is a "movement", when it is rather a term that is used with various meanings and can refer to many different movements. I'll start by replacing the definition, which is sourced to weak tertiary sources, by a summary of tertiary sources which are also secondary (i.e., written by academic specilists - see WP:PSTS). Eperoton (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

@2A1ZA: It's not clear what the "Generally speaking" in the source refers to, but there's no indication that it refers to "Western media". Please explain 1) why you think we should highlight an opinion column, which is not a WP:RS; 2) what value it would add to all the definitions we already have in that section. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 16:59, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Eperoton: The term "Islamism" has a pretty sharp meaning/definition in general Western media usage. I am not sure why you object to stating this in the lead, but an intro suggesting that "nobody really knows what the term means, its usage must be some form of racist hate against Muslim people" is contrary to well sourced reality and misleading. And even if you passionately wish to defend the lead as you made it against such statement of the pretty sharp meaning/definition in general Western media usage, then at least move it to the text body instead of blank deletion. I will re-insert, with this source that is fine or with more, if I quickly find one of the many around. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:05, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

@2A1ZA: It looks like you've missed my comment above. Here it again: It's not clear what the "Generally speaking" in the source refers to, but there's no indication that it refers to "Western media". Please explain 1) why you think we should highlight an opinion column, which is not a WP:RS; 2) what value it would add to all the definitions we already have in that section.

Please read the lead again. It has nothing in common with your characterization. It discusses various uses of the term: more general, more specific, media trends and related terms. The Definitions section illustrates the broad range of its usage. What you're trying do here is highlight your preferred definition (which is not even properly sourced) in violation of WP:NPOV. Eperoton (talk) 17:15, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I did read the lead again. Without the clarification, I read what I perceive as implying the term has no clear and sharp meaning in general media usage, and in context insinuating that its usage must be some form of racist hate against Muslim people. In my well reasoned and sourced view, that is contrary to well sourced reality and misleading. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

The source says nothing about this being a western media thing.Slatersteven (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I happily added an additional source, an Washington Post piece which is all about "What do we mean by ‘Islamist’?". -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

Where does it mention the west?Slatersteven (talk) 17:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I am abolutely fine with deleting the term "Western". I just added it because discussions with Islamists usually end with the compromise that this term must be inserted, so I did this from the beginning to spare all of us lifetime. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:30, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

If it's not a statement about Western media usage, then it's just repeating what the paragraph has already stated: "movements which call for full implementation of sharia [...] commonly used interchangeably with the terms political Islam". Eperoton (talk) 17:59, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

My problem with your version is exactly this sentence:

The term can refer to diverse forms of social and political activism advocating that public and political life should be guided by Islamic principles,[1] or more specifically to movements which call for full implementation of sharia.

This sentence suggests that the adjective "Islamist" would be widely used other than with reference to a political Sharia law agenda. And this suggestion is not true. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

The sentence doesn't make any assertions about wide usage, it summarizes what the cited source says. Why don't you click on the link and read it? It's right there in the first paragraph. Likewise, from The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World: "Since the 1979 Iranian Revolution and especially since the 9/11 attacks, the term has often acquired a quasi-criminal connotation close to that of political extremism, religious sectarianism, or bigotry. In Western mainstream media, “Islamists” are those who want to establish, preferably through violent means, an “Islamic state” or impose sharīʿah (Islamic religious law)—goals that are often perceived merely as a series of violations of human rights or the rights of women. In the Muslim world, insiders use the term as a positive reference. In the academic sphere, although it is still debated, the term designates a more complex phenomenon. However, the functionality of the distinction between a positive “Islam” and a possibly sectarian “Islamism” is limited, since the border between the two is not clearly defined." Please stop trying to insert your preconceptions about what is and isn't true and concentrate on summarizing the generalizations made in standard references, as required per WP:NPOV. Eperoton (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

In Western mainstream media, “Islamists” are those who want to establish, preferably through violent means, an “Islamic state” or impose sharīʿah (Islamic religious law)

This is exactly what the sentence you are fighting against says. I will happily add this source to the sentence, which you yourself declared as most reliable now. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 19:49, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

Well, it looks like instead of trying to get consensus as you're required to do per WP:ONUS, you're doubling down on OR, now synthesizing definitions from select media source into your own generalization about "media". I'll add another tag for now, but without policy compliance and consensus, this is going to be removed before long. Eperoton (talk) 18:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I am not "synthesizing", I am adding more sources which all say literally the same thing. Literally. Read them. Please do not make me doubt your good faith. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 18:53, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

To make a generalization about "media", you need to cite a RS which makes that generalization. Please point me to the part in your citations where the generalization about "media" is made. Citing a couple of specific definitions and turning them into your own generalization violates WP:SYN. Eperoton (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

From the OED

Islamist NOUN

An advocate or supporter of Islamic militancy or fundamentalism: ‘radical Islamists’

ADJECTIVE

Relating to, advocating, or supporting Islamic militancy or fundamentalism: ‘hardline Islamist groups’ ‘Islamist ideology’

So, no, it is not just about Sharia law.Slatersteven (talk) 19:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

We should not use opinion pieces as sources for facts per "News organizations." It seems that the Turkish premier objected to the term "Islamist terrorism." Note that the Obama administration never used the term "Islamic terrorism." But that does not mean he objected to the term Islamist. The observation that Islamists seek sharia as a political system is confusing. Sharia is the legal system in most Islamic nations. The controversy lies in how to interpret it. Under common law for example, witches were burned at the stake, but that does not mean advocates of common law necessarily support that punishment. Sharia means among other things that interest cannot be applied to debts. TFD (talk) 19:18, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

The Associated Press Stylebook, one of the sources, certainly is not an "opinion piece", but rather the most serious and reliable reference for media usage of a term. And it clearly says: No Sharia law based government, no Islamism. And as to your other point, this is not about any random Sharia law, but about Sharia as the legitimizing constitution of the political and legal system. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

It looks like you're ignoring this comment above: To make a generalization about "media", you need to cite a RS which makes that generalization. Please point me to the part in your citations where the generalization about "media" is made. Citing a couple of specific definitions and turning them into your own generalization violates WP:SYN. Eperoton (talk) 19:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

There is no WP:SYN involved. For example the Hurriyet sources most explicitly states the generalization about "media". I will happily in the coming hours add more perfectly reliable sources which make this generalization about "media" in the most possible explicit form. And as the fact is so obviously true with so many most reliable sources which make exactly this explicit generalizing claim about "media", it will be my pleasure. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

The Hurriyet (which as an opinion piece may not be RS) does not say this is a media usage.Slatersteven (talk) 19:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I do not mind saying in the lead that some people do not like the term, provided that is true and we can source it, specifying which people, but the lead is mostly about that. And it is not a "neologism" any more, but a generally used term. Of course it is vague where mainstream Islamic politics ends and Islamist politics begins. The Saudis practice inhumane punishments for example but are not Islamists. TFD (talk) 21:04, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

I wasn't personally comfortable with using the term "neologism" myself, but this was how the cited Islamism article from the 2015 The Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Politics defined it. Given that I haven't come across other RSs using that designation, I think there's a rationale for removing it as giving undue weight to that source, authoritative as it is. Eperoton (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

@2A1ZA: You're welcome to look for additional sources, but this is getting silly. You'll actually need to convince someone that you're using the sources properly. You've been given slack in letting you keep the disputed passage in a very prominent spot while the discussion was going on. With opposition from three editors and no support, I think it's safe to say that you haven't gotten consensus for that passage with current sourcing. The passage I quoted, which you're referring to above (you've added the wrong ref, by the way), doesn't support your formulation either, since it emphasizes the negative connotations of media usage, and was already summarized in the paragraph as "implying political extremism". Instead of just removing your addition, I'll do my best to extract from your comments above what seems to be a valid concern about the current summary of the available sources. It is that we could do a better job distinguishing the broader and more neutral sense of Islamism (roughly equivalent to Islamic activism) used mostly by academics and Muslims, from the range of meanings used in the media, which is not necessarily precise (as illustrated by AP's efforts to rein in the loose usage of their reporters), but generally excludes more "moderate" groups. I'll rewrite the end of the paragraph to reflect it in more detail. Eperoton (talk) 22:53, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

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The results from the largest statistical Muslim opinion poll ever made, interviewing 38000 Muslims in 39 different countries. Among other things, 84% of the population of Afghanistan want all "adulterers" to be stoned to death:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

42% of young Muslims in France, and 35% of young Muslims in Britain support suicide bombings:

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Further information about the subject. Among other things, 59% of all Palestinians support suicide bombings:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/

33% of Muslims students in France are sympathetic towards terrorism:

http://www.la-croix.com/France/Exclusion/La-tentation-radicalite-chez-jeunes-musulmans-banlieue-2017-03-20-1200833366

There are 23000 Jihadists in Britain:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

Only 34% of British Muslims would contact the police if somebody they knew had been involved with terrorism:

http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/

17000 French Muslims are known to be potential terrorists:

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/05/france-doesnt-know-what-to-do-with-the-17000-people-it-labels-potential-terrorists/

18884 Belgian Muslims are known to have connections to terrorism:

http://mobile.lesoir.be/1487295/article/actualite/belgique/2017-04-21/18884-personnes-fichees-pour-terrorisme-en-belgique

The Jihadists are winning the propaganda warfare with western countries, which drastically increases radicalisation, and turns it harder to stop:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39448987

The Islamic State has 30000 Internet pages that spread its propaganda:

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-has-30000-website-strong-virtual-caliphate-warns-eu-terror-chief-632534?amp=1

A study about jihadism and islamic radicalisation in the western countries:

https://icct.nl/publication/fear-thy-neighbor-radicalization-and-jihadist-attacks-in-the-west/

21% of Syrians support ISIS:

https://www.statista.com/chart/4227/support-for-isis-in-muslim-countries/

Europol reports that the Islamic State is radicalising Muslim immigrants into jihadists:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/islamic-state-changing-terror-tactics-to-maintain-threat-in-europe

Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are directly inciting Islamist extremism in Europe via their thousands of Wahhabist/Salafist mosques:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/saudi-arabia-gulf-states-fund-islamic-extremism-germany-salafism-wahhabism-qatar-kuwait-islamists-a7473551.html

The Saudi-financed Salafist/Wahhabist mosques in Germany are even too extremist for Syrians:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-mosques-insig-idUSKCN12S0HE

Saudi Arabia and Qatar directly finance and give logistics aid to the Islamic State terrorist organisation:

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/12/hillary-clinton-acknowledges-saudi-terror-financing-in-hacked-email-hinting-at-tougher-approach/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/clinton-foundation-donors-saudi-arabia-and-qatar-give-isis-clandestine-financial-and-logistic-support-says-hillary-clinton-in-leaked-emails-35121625.html

The Global Gender Gap Report for 2016. The Islamic countries are at the bottom of the list:

http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/rankings/

64% of the men in Egypt admit to having sexually harrassed women:

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/06/15/532977361/why-do-men-harass-women-new-study-sheds-light-on-motivations

Saudi Arabia has been elected into the United Nations women's rights council:

https://www.unwatch.org/no-joke-u-n-elects-saudi-arabia-womens-rights-commission/

Over 60% of the populations of Austria, France, and Belgium want a complete stop for Muslim immigration:

https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration#

Several statistics regarding what Europeans think about Islam, terrorism, and national security:

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/looking-to-germany-to-protect-the-world-order-779939/

How the Islamic State indoctrinates children:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-the-children-of-isis-target-practice-starts-at-age-6-by-their-teens-theyre-ready-to-be-suicide-bombers/2016/10/06/3b59f0fc-8664-11e6-92c2-14b64f3d453f_story.html

240 textbooks in United Nations sponsored schools in Palestine teach the Muslim children to murder Jews:

http://jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-text-books-in-UNWRA-schools-reportedly-teach-of-killing-Jews-472012

Iran with nuclear weapons would be a bigger threat than Syria and North Korea combined:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-is-a-bigger-threat-than-syria-and-north-korea-combined-1492210411

The ongoing genocide on Christians in the Middle-East will likely have exterminated all of them within 10 years:

http://www.acnuk.org/persecuted

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/christianity-on-course-to-disappear-in-parts-of-middle-east-as-ethnic-cleansing-continues-report-a6728831.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3311716/Christians-face-wiped-Middle-East-TEN-YEARS-killed-ISIS-forced-flee-persecution-warn-Catholic-aid-groups.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bloody-sunday-on-joyous-holiday-parents-search-for_us_58ebeab6e4b081da6ad006c0?

13 Islamic countries where atheism is punished by death:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/10/atheists-death-penalty-_n_4417994.html

10 countries where homosexuality is punished by death:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/

The Islamic countries where apostasy is punished by death:

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/

Bill Gates says that bioterrorism is one of the greatest existential threats to humanity, alongside nuclear war and global warming:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/18/technology/bill-gates-bio-terrorism/index.html

The Muslim Brotherhood spends a great amount of money on lobbying, to avoid the terrorist designation:

http://mobile.wnd.com/2017/03/muslim-brotherhood-spending-millions-to-fight-terror-designation/

David A (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Do you have an edit to suggest?Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

I am not good with massive re-editing of articles in a proper academic manner. I am however pretty good at finding important information, and am extremely worried about this issue, so I am hoping that more skilled editors will be able to incorporate some of the information. David A (talk) 16:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

That is why you suggest one edit at a time. Just providing a wall of links is not a good way to go To illustrate, this article is not about Islam, so articles about Islamic countries are irrelevant, what they need to be talking about is Islamism.Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

I have found far too much information for that procedure. However, I would appreciate your and other editors' help in sifting through and finding what is useful. David A (talk) 17:45, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Frankly all I have looked at so far looks largely irrelevant, articles about (for example) general terrorism have no usefulness here. This just looks like a rather random list of articles related to terrorism (irrelevant to this article), Islam (irrelevant to this article) or material better placed in articles about specific subjects (like ISIL).Slatersteven (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Well, I think that these are largely very informative links, with important information. Dismissing all of them wholesale, rather than picking and choosing, seems very unreasonable. David A (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

It is down to you to prove they have useful and informative information, not me. So what does the bill Gates article (for example) have to say about Islamism, why should it be included in the article?Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Ideally, Wikipedia editors should be concerned with helping each other to get out the truth about the nature of reality, not to argue against informing the public. The Bill Gates article is just one of many, and should not serve as a convenient distraction from the main issues, but Islamic terrorism is far more prevalent than all other forms, and once it starts to efficiently use bioterrorism weapons, millions will likely die. David A (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

No Wikipedia editors should make suggestions about how to improve an article, not ask others to make them without explaining what they want. As another example of the problem here, the Daily mail (any more) is not RS.Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

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I do on a personal level have full empathy for every citizen of Turkey who might feel embarrassed by seeing mentions of AKP/Erdogan promotion of Islamism in this article. However, as the topic has numerous coverage in media for many years, it cannot simply be ignored from an encyclopedic approach to Islamism. You might wish to improve the article by elaboration, but bulk deletion cannot be an option. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

I would like to see a better source for this.Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Currently I plan to take my time somewhen in the rest of the year to further elaborate in Turkey subsections both in the country section and in the international promotion section, and will certainly include many sources. I would appreciate each and every collaboration. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 12:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Put them here, and any suggested text so we can judge it.Slatersteven (talk) 15:30, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• @2A1ZA: firstly, what makes you think that you have the right to do judge that my removal has anything to do with me being a citizen of Turkey (which is not even true) and feeling embarrassed? Such ethnic-based, dismissive and borderline derogatory personal references are completely unacceptable and unwelcome on Wikipedia, see the first two bullet points in WP:NPA. Furthermore, this is not the first time I am exposed to such behaviour from you and unfortunately I feel that I need to call it out explicitly. This forestalls any constructive collaboration and I will not tolerate many more repeated instances.
• Secondly, I am reverting to the stable version before your additions per WP:BRD. As in previous instances, I am open to all proposals to find a middle ground and ensure that the content is acceptable.
• Thirdly, if the topic has received "numerous coverage in media for many years", as you put it, that is of course clearly encyclopedic. But that is not the subject of the current discussion. The current discussion only concerns the remarks made by a single American official in a single press conference, which is what you insist on retaining. This is not a newscast and a single press release is very WP:UNDUE and recentist for such an article. I cannot even begin to imagine reading such a sentence on an article in Islamism in any proper encyclopedia. Turkey being a funder for Islamism is a huge and controversial subject. I trust that you will be able to find some of the long-term media coverage that you have talked about, combine that with some recent academic work and add the relevant encyclopedic content in compliance with our guidelines. That is how an encyclopedia is written, not by quotefarming. This would be more than fully welcome and would get my full support. --GGT (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

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The article here is written in the same vain as "jihad".

Jihad does not mean war and killing for the sake of Allah, it means the struggle to practice ones faith. Yet the meaning has changed and become very specific. Just because other people are using the word as propaganda (Both ISIL and various newscasters) it doesn't mean you change the original meaning.

In the same vain, a Islamist is synonymous with a Muslim which is synonymous to Islam. A Islamist is someone who follows Islam and a Islamist view would regard the thoughts of the sharia of Allah as stated in the book of the recitation, the Quran.

If you have a lack of understanding of Islam, then the authors of the page should not be writing it, because it's clear they don't understand. Anything that is Islamist is backed up with the Quran and yet the Quran is hardly used as a references for most Islamic articles.

Marcramarcram (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I notice the article seems to be lacking information about Islamism in European countries. Given a rise in Islamophobia across the continent, many Muslim-dominant and Muslim-focused parties have emerged. These should be included in the article, painting a picture of how diverse the Islamist movement is and what its priorities, structures, etc. look like based on differing regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noahroos (talk • contribs) 18:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Abul ala maududi.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:08, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

The most ridiculous thing about the whole moslem thing is that Allah is Jesus and they are just a schismatic sect that has been utterly corrupted by their Sheiks, Imams and clerics. It has always just been a power and money grab that they have tortured the earth with for over 1,300 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.146.83.207 (talk) 15:51, 25 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

No, we believe that Jesus was a prophet, not the son of Allah. Because we don't believe that Allah has any partners in divinity. For futher information, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam 2600:6C4E:1200:1E85:EC4B:413:D10F:95C6 (talk) 01:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

The quote from Maududi that User:Iskandar323 deleted is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://zulkiflihasan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/towardsunderstanding.pdf It is from a blog of a DR. ZULKIFLI HASAN, but looking at the posting (of an e-book published by UKIM Dawah Centre) there certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

The quote from Maududi you keep deleting is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism&diff=next&oldid=1134872162 There certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

The quote from Maududi you keep deleting is found in more than one posting of a full text of the work Towards Understanding Islam. Here is another not from archive.org: https://zulkiflihasan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/towardsunderstanding.pdf It is from a blog of a DR. ZULKIFLI HASAN, but the looking at the posting (of an e-book published by UKIM Dawah Centre) there certainly seems to be no reason to declare it "unreliable". --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Louis P. Boog: geocities.com was the problem with that source - it is, as far as I am aware, a self-published domain, and the exact provenance and integrity of any of material available on such a domain is fundamentally unverifiable. If you wish to reinclude that quote, why not simply quote the source directly? [9] But even so, isn't this a primary source for Maududi's thoughts? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't understand. How can the published work of an author not be considered a sources for his thoughts? Especially for a person most famous for his published work?? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:57, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Louis P. Boog: To be clear, I have little interest and/or skin in the inclusion of the quote one way or another. I was merely working to clean up what is an incredibly bloated page, and sources hosted at patently unreliable domains are typically a pretty reasonable place to start. geocities.com is additionally a domain that is flagged by the unreliable.js script. However, to the thrust of your question, I was not familiar with the work and simply saw a blog. Now that I am aware that Towards Understanding Islam is a work of some prominence, even though I can't precisely pinpoint the original publisher, I have no particular objections to it. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Iskandar323: I too have a strong desire to cleaning up the mess that is the Islamism article and hope we will not be working at cross purposes. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Louis P. Boog: If you want the quote to endure, however, I suggest citing it to Google Books - you can always link the book's name on page and then add any potential useful online copies in its external links. Otherwise, I wouldn't rule out another trigger-happy editor like me just coming along, seeing wordpress and having the red mist descend. As it is, even without those issues, your reference is currently afflicted with an error. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Iskandar323 cite added. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

This definition:

a religio-political ideology which posits that modern states and regions should be reconstituted in constitutional, economic and judicial terms, in accordance with what is conceived as a revival or a return to authentic Islamic practice in its totality.

has got to go. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:44, 6 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Why? Slatersteven (talk) 18:51, 6 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unreadable gobbledygook. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Iskandar323 The material was a copy-paste before, until Louis P. Boog recently expanded the Islamist Shi'ism page, a seperate article detailing on the topic. Moreover, Iranian revolution is already mentioned in the History section which makes this WP:REPETITION.

There are many other sub-sections which are either summarised or blanked in this page, and these topics are explained in other articles. Example: "Rise of Islamism by country" section is blanked and it has a seperate page. I dont see the point in expanding an Iran-centric section regarding a topic already detailed in another page; and this page is focused on Islamism worldwide. This article is not discussing regional Islamist movements; there are many other pages for that; but I think this article emphasizes an international perspective.

-- Shadowwarrior8 (talk 6:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323 No response? In that case, I shall proceed to blank the section.

Relevant contents can be inserted into other sections. -- Shadowwarrior8 (talk 8:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

How far back was the older version that this was copied from? (I'll take a look myself, but if you know the exact point and can tell me, that would be handy.) I would quite like to check the contents side-by-side to ensure there isn't material being lost. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:40, 8 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Ok, I found this version and I can see that the Cold war section and the one below it are very close duplicates. The parts above that seem to have some novel information and sources not present in the original. More generally, is it the best idea to removal all of this material, rather than just reducing and summarizing it? Obviously there are two Islamism trends, one Sunni and one Shia, and this section helps explain the different contexts. I agree that it is undue as largely duplicated material, but I think trimming would beat deletion. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Iskandar323 Note that I didnt fully blank the section, I left a summary and linked the section to its main article so that readers can go over there.

The Shia trend has already been explained in other general sections. Due to elaborating it in seperate sections, it has led to repetition. For ex: Iranian revolution is repetitively explained in 2 large sub-sections "History" and "Islamism in Shia World" sections which is both WP:REPETITION and WP:UNDUE. "Islamism in Shia World" section is also written in an Iran-centric way. There is little to no detailed elaboration of Islamism in countries like Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Algeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Indonesia, etc and other countries with a history of local Islamist movements.

-- Shadowwarrior8 (talk) UTC 12:14 8 May 2023 Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 12:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Fair enough. I'll trust your judgment. I'm not hugely invested in this, and only objected because at an initial glance I saw plenty of signs that this material was not an unambiguous copy-paste, but given your explanation that what was copied was from a much older version, and seeing that older versions are indeed much closer, I trust that the material has since changed on the other page for good reason, and, trusting the reassurances that you have provided here, I have no real further reason to object. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Iskandar323 @Shadowwarrior8

Am attempting to improve the Shi'i section (yes, that means making it longer). My hope is to make the Shi'i section about differences between Shii and Sunni "types" of Islamism , where as the Iranian Revolution section would be more about the history. Haven't removed the big ugly tag as I hope to do more. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

The text says: Syrian Sunni cleric Muhammad Rashid Riḍā, a fervent opponent of Westernization, Zionism and nationalism, advocated Sunni internationalism through revolutionary restoration of a pan-Islamic Caliphate to politically unite the Muslim World.

I can’t access the sources quoted at the end of the sentence but do they honestly support this assertion? I am somewhat surprised because Albert Hourani and others (I think Elizabeth Thompson as well) have argued Rida’s conceptualisation of the caliphate was framed in nationalistic terms. Interested if anyone can enlighten? Yr Enw (talk) 09:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia prefers common terminology, not formal; certainly not when the terminology changes direct quotes such as those from this article.   –Skywatcher68 (talk) 21:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply