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Pettifer use should be avoided

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Pettifer, who is the only source that claims Spiro Koleka a Greek (and then all the others have taken from him), in my humble opinion should not be used as a source in the article or should be used with caution for a simple reason: He is incorrect about Koleka in most things he says. In fact Pettifer says that Spiro Koleka is from Himara, and he gets that wrong, because multiple sources say that Koleka was born in Vuno (see "Albania, from Anarchy to a Balkan identity" p189 New York University Press 1990). That means that he got that information wrong since the beginning (1990), when he published one of his first books about Albania. Pettifer back then didn't know much about Albania, of course, and he would get reports from second hand sources.

In the reference I provided Pettifer doesn't say "Himara region", he specifically says "from the coastal town of Himara" in the reference above, so he incorrectly reports the town where Koleka is born. As a result, the source (Pettifer) is to be taken cautiously, and possibily avoided. Now in general Pettifer is a reliable source, but even the most reliable source can have mistakes, and that's when the process of weighing the sources starts. When sources contradict one another, a broader discussion could be started here, and the outcome, as weighted by experienced editors, could be that of avoiding the source for a certain issue. Of course this will take some time, but it is possible when you calmly discuss the source and take appropriate action in a calm manner. Again, I want to warn that in general Pettifer is a reliable source, but in this case he got it wrong. --Gjidede (talk) 22:25, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the Pettifer source is an issue. Its can stay due to it meet Wikipedia policy. Nonetheless, it must remain in the seperate Ethnicity section due to neutrality reasons. Any integration of the spruce or section into the main article will be POV pushing. I have outlined repeatedly to many the reasons why.Resnjari (talk) 14:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that keeping the paragraph on "Ethnicity" separate was perhaps dictated by having to deal with disagreement on POV issues. However we are forcing too much the "Ethnicity" paragraph and I think that it should be split into what should go into his "early life", including ethnicity, and what should go within his activities as a politician for minorities. Those are separate issues. The paragraph on ethnicity doesn't flow for a distant reader, as it's written now, and all it does is giving too much weight to an error that Mr. Pettifer made. --Gjidede (talk) 14:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get me wrong, but this went to third party adjudication and after much, much deliberation of this that and the other, non-balkan editors came up with that section as a solution. You can see the above discussion (and archive) and there are links to the dispute thing also. Gjidede it took a lot of time over something that should be small. Please, abide by the decision. I know the flow is a little out of whack, but the material is a issue. It cannot be removed, yet it has been noted to be problematic (Burridheut's concerns where acknowledged as legitimate by the administrators). Best leave it as it is now and just do page patrols. The stuff on minorities is also an issue because of Dimitopoulos as well. He states that Northern Epirotes said that. What does he mean by "Northern Epirotes" ? Was is Orthodox Albanian speakers from the area or Greek speakers that said that etc, etc. Third party adjudication made the section separate for all those sources which are contentious etc, etc. As for much weight, not really because the Kondo obituary article followed by Edi Rama's comments about the family give it balance.Resnjari (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry I'm easy and will abide by the consensus: just thought of dropping by and giving my two cents about an issue that has affected Burridheut personally in a bad way and given him a bitter taste of wikipedia. To be honest with you I have despised Spiro Koleka's political activities, so I can freely admit that I didn't like the politician at all. For all he's done to the Albanians he can very well have been a Greek, and the Greeks (Alexikoua and Zoupan) can keep him. Alas for them, we all know he was an Albanian. Gjidede (talk) 15:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And how, may I ask, you, a brand new account, are worried about a user you never met before and how is it that your first edit was to the talkpage of this obscure article? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 15:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Obscure article? Are you kidding me mister? Spiro Koleka was the President of the State Planning Commission for his entire life, i.e. practically #3 person in power in Albania (after Secretary of the Party and Prime Minister). I have followed these guys for weeks now, as the article keeps changing. All you are doing here is to talk how he was a Greek. You say nothing in the article about how Spiro Koleka's ideas tranformed the buildings of the Albanians into hen houses, and how the roads in Albania were never built. I am sure that the Greek party in wikipedia, once they'll know how hated Koleka was in Albania, won't touch the article anymore. --Gjidede (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get too excited. It is weird for a brand new account to start commenting as soon as a user gets banned from the same article. It is even weirder to start feeling sorry for the banned user and to know what taste Wikipedia left him in his mouth. That's a bit too personal for someone who never met the now-banned editor. Just sayin'. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 15:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dr.K., it's nothing to worry about, it's just good old Sulmues stopping by to make some noise. He does that from time to time. Athenean (talk) 21:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Atnenean. That this account is a sock is obvious. I was just wondering about the master. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 23:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Guys don't allege. I said if there are suspicions, take them them to the obvious forums so it can be investigated. Otherwise refrain from such commentary. Wikipedia is about good faith.Resnjari (talk) 21:32, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it is. But this sock is too obvious for that. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 23:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, how do you know. Regarding this sockpuppet detection stuff what do you use? I only thought as the policy says that an admin has access to do a check with the Wikipedia software. I am aware of that Sulmues account, i looked that editor after cited here. What do you look for ? I am asking because i don't want to accuse someone and then it turns out not to be the case. That would be acting in bad faith. Advice on the matter would be most helpful. Resnjari (talk) 11:59, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have already explained why this user is an obvious sock. Having done so I will not repeat myself. This is also the talkpage of the article. Further elaborating on what constitutes a sock will not help improve it. Please focus on that from now on. As far as details of what is a sock please see WP:SOCK. And please always WP:AAGF. Thank you. Dr.K. (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I see now. Just to be precise then what occurred here would fall under WP:MEAT. I got to read these in detail. For the time being i will remain neutral.Resnjari (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Gjidede: I admit your sockpuppeting skills are at a very amateur level. According to my "humble" opinion you should self-remove your comments from this talkpage, else I will be in the unfortunate position to fill another report against you, this time for sockpuppeting and block evasion.Alexikoua (talk) 15:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Block evasion? That doesn't sound too good. Who could that be? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 16:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, any suspicions of sockpuppetry should be made in the appropriate forums. Also, Spiro Koleka is a controversial figure and may comments amongst Albanians exist which are not favourable. Burridheut has never said anything negative about Koleka as he is from Vuno and is of his kin. For now i will say that Gjidede is someone who has taken a interest in the article by coming across it and creating an account to comment on it. If suspicions of that nature exist about it being not the case, there are mechanisms for it. Good faith must be maintained.Resnjari (talk) 16:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
... and every banned user should remained as such. @Resnjari: your obsession to defend your compatriot has reached a new level of disruption. Taking into account that you oppenly offer advice to sockpuppets & wp:spa accounts on how evade an possible investigation is not acceptable. Also, recycling again and again the 'arguments' of a banned editor is actionable too.Alexikoua (talk) 16:53, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You are going to report him too for disrupting "obsession" or for "reusing arguments"? Mondiad (talk) 17:37, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Mondiad, don't worry about it. You saw with the whole Burridheut thing that an attempt if one can call it that to sanction me was proposed by a editor in regards to myself. Administrators just ignored it. If they report me, i will make my case. Anyway i am after outside oversight and i want administrators to pay more attention to these matters. Actually we may get more change occurring and propaganda removed. Anyway the evidence speaks for itself. It still has not been determined at this point if Gjidede is a sockpuppet. Innocent until proven guilty. If proven, various actions will follow regarding that particular editor. Anyway any report of me will be dismissed again by the administrators, if its made regarding me giving advice to a sockpuppet or whatever. They have made an assumption. My words are all here for one to see. I have nothing to hide.Resnjari (talk) 18:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Alexikoua please refrain from using language that goes outside the bounds of good faith. Words such as "obsession" and "disruption", are your interpretations and opinions which do not indicate this. One we don't know its Burridheut and there are procedures to follow on that. Two we don't know its a sockpuppet and i said very clearly that if there is a suspicion that should be looked into. Don't infer something from what i have not said. My comments stand are are there for all to see. I offer no advice to sockpupperts. At the moment it is a allegation that been made. I will treat the user above Gjidede as a separate user. I am showing good faith to all.Resnjari (talk) 17:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Everything that User:Alexikoua doesn't like is marked as "disruptive". This goes far back.Mondiad (talk) 17:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm getting used to the dynamics of certain editors. Regarding Alexikoua when undertaking robust dialogue eventually things get sorted out. Sometimes things have been pointed out to me for a rethink and i have likewise done the same the other way and eventually the sources sort things out. In the end as long as that happens, it ok but its only through robust discussion. Its only one editor who says no for the sake of no. At Burridheut's recent arbitration case that editor attempted a sanction against me and was ignored by the administrators. Anyway, I've learned that Wikipedia has its comic moments even if the people doing them don't realise it. Its all in good measure.Resnjari (talk) 18:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am obliged to write about this "sock" accusation, since it is implied that he/she is me. I have no other accounts here, one was enough, you Greeks made me a favor to ban me as I was losing too much time here on Wikipedia. Please realize that I have no interest to contribute to wikipedia any further until the topic ban placed on me is lifted. I do not consider wikipedia (or perhaps this dark neighborhood of it) as a worthwhile place to store knowledge. As a matter of fact I now avoid wikipedia whenever I can for obtaining ANY information, since I know how that information is produced. The fact that Greek editors are allowed to do as they please and accuse with indecent language and without consequence the Albanian editors is appalling. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the remarks coming from Gjidede about Koleka (Gjidede it was a communist system, you could not expect the state to build villas for people and hand them for free, all was built using very limited resources. However, as you realize our contrary opinions don't matter here, the aim is for the greeks to look as if they are protagonists in our history, in all periods and settings). The accusations against Gjidede as a "sock" should be proven or the users who repeat those accusations should be warned and perhaps topic banned. That happened to me when I accused these users as vandals, some of you might remember. Anyway, I am not even sure if I am allowed to write here in the talk section, but I looked at the rule exceptions and as I understood it I could, since I was accused of "socketry" or "puppetry" (not sure what you call it, I did not hang out enough here to learn it). Burridheut (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vuno in 1900s or 1995?

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There are two citations for "Vuno, an Orthodox Albanian village", but this sentence obviously relates to the present, and not when he was born. Nitsiakos explicitly says "According to the latest census in the area". There has been several questions on this earlier, but they have remained unanswered.--Zoupan 03:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kallivretakis did fieldwork in the area separate to the census data. Orthodox Albanian speaking people have a complicated history as outlined in Kallivratakis' article. The wording stays at it is. Otherwise other references to Greek get removed if that gets removed.Resnjari (talk) 07:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And you base this one for one on what? The citations explicitly says "according to the latest census in the area". The wording should be changed to reflect the sources.--Zoupan 12:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kallivretakis who did fieldwork in the makes a series of observations and conclusions regarding the matter dealt here:
Kallivretakis, Leonidas (1995). "Η ελληνική κοινότητα της Αλβανίας υπό το πρίσμα της ιστορικής γεωγραφίας και δημογραφίας [The Greek Community of Albania in terms of historical geography and demography ]." In Nikolakopoulos, Ilias, Kouloubis Theodoros A. & Thanos M. Veremis (eds). Ο Ελληνισμός της Αλβανίας [The Greeks of Albania]. University of Athens.
> p. 51. " ΑΧ Αλβανοί Ορθόδοξοι Χριστιανοί, ; p.53. VUNOS ΒΟΥΝΟΣ 555 ΑΧ
Vuno was inhabited by an Orthodox Albanian population. Kallivretakis states regarding the methodology:
"p. 34. "Στα πλαίσια της επιτόπιας έρευνας που πραγματοποιήσαμε στην Αλβανία (Νοέμβριος-Δεκέμβριος 1992), μελετήσαμε το ζήτημα των εθνοπολιτισμικών ομάδων, όπως αυτές συνειδητοποιούνται σήμερα επί τόπου. Είναι ενδιαφέρον καταρχήν το γεγονός ότι οι ντόπιοι Έλληνες που βιώνουν μια πραγματικότητα και δεν αντλούν την εμπειρία τους από επιτελικούς χάρτες, χρησιμοποιούν χαρακτηρισμούς που λαμβάνουν υπόψιν την πολυπλοκότητα του φαινομένου και αποφεύγουν τις απλουστεύσεις. Έτσι τα χωριά χαρακτηρίστηκαν αυθορμήτως ως Ελληνικά, Αλβανικά Χριστιανικά, Αλβανικά Μουσουλμανικά —με ιδιαίτερη μνεία των Τσάμικων— και Βλάχικα. Οι χαρακτηρισμοί αυτοί συμπίπτουν σε σημαντικό βαθμό με εκείνους των πηγών του 19ου αιώνα. Περισσότερο πολύπλοκες είναι οι περιπτώσεις που σχετίζονται με τις πόλεις, τα μικτά χωριά, τα νέα χωρία και τις μετακινήσεις πληθυσμών που έχουν λάβει χώρα τα τελευταία χρόνια. [During the fieldwork we held in Albania (November-December 1992), we studied the issue of ethnocultural groups as are realized today on the spot. Interestingly the principle that the local Greeks who experience a reality and are not drawn that expertise from headquarters of maps, instead using descriptions that take into account the complexity of the phenomenon and avoid simplifications. So the villages spontaneously characterized as Greek, Albanian Christian, Muslim Albanian -with special reference to Cham- and Vlach. These designations are largely the same as those of the sources of the 19th century. More complex cases are associated with cities, the mixed villages, new villages and population displacements that have taken place in recent years.]"
Of a Greek early 19th century source which he cites:
p. 32. "Ήδη ο Αθανάσιος Ψαλίδας, διά χειρός Κοσμά Θεσπρωτού, στις αρχές του 19ου αιώνα, διαιρεί τους κατοίκους της περιοχής σε: α) Γραικούς Χριστιανούς, που τους τοποθετεί σε ολα τα δυτικά χωριά της Δρόπολης ως την Δερβιτζάνη (εκτός από δύο), σε όλα τα ανατολικά χωριά της ίδιας κοιλάδας (εκτός από τρία), σε επτά μεγάλα και αρκετά μικρά χωριά του Δελβίνου και σε τρία χωριά της Χιμάρας. β) Αλβανούς Χριστιανούς, στα βόρεια και βορειοανατολικά χωριά της Δρόπολης (περιοχές Λιτζουριάς και Ρίζας), σε ορισμένα χωριά του Δέλβινου, της Χιμάρας, της Πρεμετής και της Κολόνιας καθώς και 20 περίπου χωριά της Κορυτσάς. γ) Αλβανούς Τούρκους, δηλαδή Μουσουλμάνους, που καλύπτουν εκτός ελαχίστων εξαιρέσεων το υπόλοιπο έδαφος. [Already Athanasios Psalidas, known as Kosmas Thesprotos in early 19th century, divides local residents to: a) Greeks Christians, who puts in all the western villages of Dropull up until Dervicani (except two) in all eastern villages of the same valley (except three) in seven large and several small villages Delvina and three villages of Himara. b) Albanian Christians in the north and northeast villages of Dropull (Lunxheri and Rreza areas), in some villages of Delvina, Himara, Permet and Kolonja and approximately 20 villages of Korca. c) Albanians, Turks, Muslims say, covering a few exceptions on the remaining soil.]"
Only 3 Greek speaking villages in Himara in the early 19th century and Kallivratakis states that on a whole most of the fieldwork he did in the 1990s corresponds to previous works on such matters apart from population flux's to the cities and a few settlements (such as 3 that where created for the Cham population that came from Greece during the interwar period. Kallivretakis gives Vuno's population as being inhabited solely by an Orthodox Albanian population. That is not in dispute. Nitsikoas also cites Kallivretakis and then also refers to the census. You can read the whole Kallivretakis peer reviewed book chapter in full.Resnjari (talk) 14:32, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]


@Zoupan:, I would agree with you if you went first and corrected the article Himara Revolt of 1596. There is no Greek element mentioned in the article or the references, yet you marked it as "Northern Epirotes" (in this case for sure you place it to mark the revolt as Greek!). How do you know the ethnicity of the Himara people in 1596?

I don't agree on how the Himara related articles are built, but from it is written it is clear that Vuno is a village where Albanian is predominant. In fact, it is the village of the area which had chetas aligned with the League of Prizren (Odhise Kasneci), and people with Ismail Qemali in 1912.
Since we find place for a non-reliable reference as Pettifer's one that claims his ethnicity, while Spiro's daughter Iliriana claims otherwise, I think we should leave the statement about Vuno where it is. It has to do with Koleka's identity.--Mondiad (talk) 20:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Himara (Vuno included) didn't sent any representatives in Vlore to Qemali, in fact the Himariotes were in battle against Qemalis men in Logara. In general the structure of Himara related articles is fine although some additional features may be fine.Alexikoua (talk) 21:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me but i will remind all of you here that Kallivratkis did extensive fieldwork in southern Albania on the ethnic demographic makeup of the region in the 1990s. He also looked at the past (Greek) sources from the 19th century and did a evaluation of them. His work meet WP:reliable and analysis. I have cited a important part of his book chapter where he says that for most settlements, the demographic data corresponds to past data. Apart from placing a inline from Kallivretakis in the main article about Vuno, the matter as outlined by a peer reviewed scholar (who mind you has been cited by other Greek scholars such as sociologist Vassilis Nitisikos) ends the matter in its entirety. So stop POV pushing. Vuno has an Albanian speaking population. As to whether some supported the Greek movements or not just like other Orthodox speaking people, i.e. the Arvanites is not a matter for the Spiro Koleka article.Resnjari (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Zoupan:, I hope you understand what I want to say. This kind of issues are very common, and since there are users like Alexikoua that don't do anything else but this kind of "tricky" edits that scatter conflicts, we will get stuck on this longer. It is all or none. I would prefer not to have any disputable ethnicity info on Koleka's article, especially since he was a Communist. But since Alexikoua wants to mark him as Greek, then we have to place as much as info as there is available.--Mondiad (talk) 23:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The question is simple. Was Vuno identified as Albanian or Greek in the 1900s (or 19th century)? Is there an anthropological work regarding Himara older than 1995? 19th-century Greek-based ethnographic maps show Himara, and west from it, including Vuno, as Greek (both by religion and language). The map is based on ethnographer P. Aravandinos. Could somebody also look through Kosmas Thesprotos?--Zoupan 08:46, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zoupan:, the answer is simple though i am not sure if you read Kallivratakis there. But he meets the criteria for wp:reliable. He clearly states after examining much of the sources (and also doing fieldwork on the ground) that most villages had almost the same ethnic designations as in the 19th century. Kallivratkis is a peer reviewed scholar and has done analysis of the research. You looking at ethnic maps of certain Greek authors (or 19th century Greek authors outright) and making a determination of them (when there have been multiple material published to their problematic nature) is original research > wp:original. Kallivretkis also cites Psalidas, who gives three villages for Himara as Greek speaking (early 19th century). Kallivratiks also states in case anyone missed it: " Οι χαρακτηρισμοί αυτοί συμπίπτουν σε σημαντικό βαθμό με εκείνους των πηγών του 19ου αιώνα. [These designations are largely the same as those of the sources of the 19th century.]" Don't POV push. Kallivretakis identifies Vuno as Albanian speaking Orthodox village. Read the peer reviewed source in full as i take you also can read Greek. Unless you can disprove Kallivretakis findings and call into question the scholar or his work (using qualified scholarship), there is nothing more on the matter.Resnjari (talk) 10:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am not questioning Kallivratkis. You have misunderstood OR (...such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.). We need clearer answers, not an evaluation of studies. Vuno is the subject.--Zoupan 10:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Vuno is the subject and i have pointed to parts of the wideranging and indepth study on the matter. And Kallivretakis in his fieldwork gives Vuno's population as Orthodox Albanian. He also states that those ethnic designations of settlements that are given for the period he did fieldwork (1990s) are the same as that of the 19th century, given by (Greek) authors that he has done a in depth investigation (your comment there seems to be questioning that scholarly conclusion given by Kallivretakis. Unless you have sscholarship calling the scholar and his work into question, there is no doubt to his findings). One of those authors Psalidas which is cited in Kallivretakis' study gives 3 Greek (speaking) villages for the Himara area which tallies up with today's data (as outlined by Kallivretakis). Qeparo is mixed with one neighbourhood Orthodox Albanian and the other Greek. Read the article in full. Kallivretakis is very clear on the matter. Vuno is Orthodox Albanian.Resnjari (talk) 12:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

An ethnic Greek without native name mentioned

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This needs to be addressed: why an athnic Greek (based on RS) should not have his native name mentioned in infobox?Alexikoua (talk) 20:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The "RS" does not even know where Koleka was born. He was not born in the village of Himara, as Pettifer claims (all those English works are Pettifer's). He was born in the village of Vuno. You have been trying to push that for years, and even tried that. The idea that a family surnamed Koleka is Greek is quite hilarious. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:30, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As editors have suggested in the section above, I think that those sources should be removed, they provide completely inaccurate information. The Koleka are not from the village/town of Himara, they are from Vuno, and they have a clear historical background of Albanian patriotism. – Βατο (talk) 22:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you make a good point. As far as I can see, only Pettifer's works make that claim. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Koleka had roots in both Vuno and Himara, it's very weird you turn Petiffer useless in the specific matter because it simply claim something diferrent from the Albanian nationalist narative. Also this work [[1]] isn't written by Petiffer neither the author states that Koleka's ethnicity was claimed by P.: It's written by Stein and he feels convinient to cite Pettifer.Alexikoua (talk) 02:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, Pettifer is cited three separate times in three separate works in the same sentence. It gives the impression that multiple authors are calling Koleka Greek, when that is really not the case. Even Vickers does not go as far as to call him Greek. Pettifer's work should come under WP:FRINGE since he does not even understand where Koleka's family hails from. Also, 'Kol Leka'... Botushali (talk) 05:55, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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