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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 15.ai (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ltbdl (talk · contribs)
• Thought 1915 (talk · contribs)
• RocketKnightX (talk · contribs)
• SuperStain (talk · contribs)
• VexVector (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

the dispute is whether 15.ai is abandoned or not.

15.ai is an ai text-to-speech program that has been down for ~19 months. the article said that 15.ai was under maintenance until thought 1915 edited the article to say 15.ai was abandoned, and rocketknightx edited the article back to the status quo. i and rocketknightx edit warred over this, and i apologize for that.

those who support saying that 15.ai is abandoned include myself, thought 1915, and superstain. those who support saying that 15.ai is under maintenance include rocketknightx and vexvector.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:15.ai § Editing with respect to the last two topics of Past Tense

Talk:15.ai § The project is not abandoned.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

by determining whether the article on 15.ai should say it is operational or abandoned.

I am so sorry if this comes off as biased or too casual; this is my first time having disputes happen. After seeing multiple talk pages in the article that suggested changing the article to past tense, I applied the change. This, seemingly, started an edit war against one who wanted to revert my change and those who were fine with my change. Talk topics have been attempted to solve this issue, one started by me after realizing that an edit war may occur without intervention. At this point, the reasoning for keeping the site in the present tense and not calling the site abandoned is that there are not enough citations and a sentiment that the site could come back up. This sentiment is only felt by one editor, as everybody else involved that I see listed in this dispute holds the opposite opinion. The opposite opinion that has been quite common among the editors involved is that the site indeed has been abandoned. This is because of a lack of contact for over 18 months, the domain being used to host completely unrelated projects (see tf2[dot]15[dot]ai), and the fact that multiple other sites allegedly made by 15 (see pony[dot]best) have been found. After third-party intervention, a decision to stop editing until a consensus was reached occurred. Some of the editors claim that RocketKnightX may have a bias that prevents neutrality in the article. Checking RocketKnightX's user contributions can help a third party conclude this general sentiment. There is one point I would like to highlight in this dispute: there has been no contact or mention of 15[dot]ai for more than a year; the site no longer appears on a search engine. If we were to classify the site as abandoned or under maintenance, how would it be cited? Would the amount of time without any contact and the usage of the domain for different projects be enough to consider the site abandoned? Once again, I apologize for any bias in my statement.

Okay. So, 15 said "I've been alerted that there appears to be a coordinated attack against my project by another service, with affiliated groups spreading rumors that I had abandoned 15.ai, or that I had placed it behind a paywall, or that I had killed myself, etc. I assure you that I am still the same stubborn person I was three years ago when I first launched my project – please don't believe these malicious lies. I'm doing the best I can, and I'll always continue to do so." They tried to mean that the project was not abandoned and is in under maintenance, but some people still not convinced due to waiting too long. The only reason why the project isn't up is that it needs to be perfect, as quality is more important than quantity.

My involvement in this dispute began some months ago when I noticed that an editor had been reverting edits made to the 15.ai page that could be interpreted as painting the website in a negative light. After noticing these edits, I took it upon myself to clean up the page, removing irrelevant and potentially biased passages, fixing certain spelling errors and adding archived references. A few months later, I returned to the article's talk page to provide insight into a discussion being held on the status of 15.ai, some of which now serves as the foundation for arguments in favour of classifying the website as abandoned. A few weeks later, I checked on the article again and found that an edit war had arisen between two editors, one believing the site to be abandoned and the other holding out hope for the site's return. Feeling that 15.ai had been down for long enough to justify classifying the website as abandoned, I edited parts of the page in order to counteract revisions made to label the site as "under maintenance". Conscious of potential 3RR violations, I made sure to limit myself to two of these edits before moving on with my day. Echoing Thought 1915's feelings, I believe RocketKnightX to be biased in favour of 15.ai. However, I also feel that another editor, HackerKnownAs, who I alluded to previously in my statement, to hold similar biases, as their account was created the same day as many of the articles sourced, and their contribution history seems to be comprised exclusively of edits made to protect the website's image and to remove mentions of competing websites/15.ai's ongoing downtime. I feel the best course of action here would be to classify 15.ai as abandoned, and to investigate the article's overall edit history to determine how much of this page was written with bias.

To be clear, I do not, “support saying that 15.ai is under maintenance”. This is a misrepresentation of my involvement. I merely added a citation-needed tag to the claim that the site was abandoned, and reverted an edit which removed the tag without resolving the need for it. If the site is claimed to be abandoned, then it should be a claim which is cited or explained somehow. The page did not have any rationale for considering it abandoned. What is the cut-off point? Is there præexisting policy on this matter? An explanation is all I ask for, along with the explanation being included on the public page.

I am ready to act as the moderator for this content dispute. Please read DRN Rule A and state whether you are willing to follow the ground rules. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise.

It appears that the main question is whether to characterize the web site as abandoned or defunct, or whether to characterize it as under maintenance. Is that correct? In Wikipedia, we report what reliable sources have said, including about the (lack of) availability of the site. So my first question to the editors is whether they can refer to any reliable sources that comment on the status of the web site. If so, please identify the source(s).

The purpose of dispute resolution, including moderated discussion, is to improve the article. So my second question is whether there are any other portions or sections of the article that you want to change that another editor wants to leave unchanged, or any portions of the article that you want to leave unchanged that another editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct in what the main question is about the categorization of the website as either abandoned/defunct or under maintenance.

Directly answering your first question, we were unable to find specifically reliable sources regarding the status of 15[dot]ai. We do have alledged sites made by 15, tweets that 15 had said about the status (and an implied release timeframe that has already passed), and the current usage of the domain 15[dot]ai under tf2[dot]15[dot]ai, but I assume that these do not qualify as reliable sources.

As for your second question, a new talk topic on the page asked whether the CMU Dictionary section of the page was necessary, although the topic is too new for any consensus to be formed yet.

If any editors have information that contradicts my statement, please correct me. I may make mistakes by accident. Thought 1915 (talk) 05:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to answer you on the first point, sorry. I will, to my best knowledge, try to follow the stated ground rules. Please let me know if I made a mistake though. Thought 1915 (talk) 05:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i can follow the ground rules. i have nothing to add to thought 1915's summary. ltbdl☃ (talk) 10:44, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I personally very much think that 15.ai has definitely been abandoned and the article needs to be updated. It's not gotten any changes within the last few months and I haven't seen any updates about it. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If reliable sources do not say that the web site has been abandoned, we should not say that the web site has been abandoned, but we can state what the reliable sources report about the status of the web site. Stating that it has been abandoned would be original research. However, stating that it is under maintenance would also be original research unless that has been reported by a reliable source.

Is there any disagreement about any other content issue? Are there any continuing issues about how to report the status of the web site? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This goes in tandem with considering the site abandoned, but, the tense of the article seemed to be disputed. I placed it under past tense under the suggestion of the talk topics above me; the story of how that went is the same as considering the site abandoned.

As there have been no reliable sources on both considering the site abandoned or under maintenance, I wonder how it should be classified under these circumstances. Thought 1915 (talk) 01:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's very hard to find an actual reference that would document that the site is abandoned. We might need to do a ^{[citation needed]} instead. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would be fine with this. Thought 1915 (talk) 00:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. Anyone else up for ^{[citation needed]} in place of a reference? Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 00:15, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]} with what? ltbdl☃ (talk) 00:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's hard to find a reference, it might just be easier to put a ^{[citation needed]} in place of it. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

placing a ^{[citation needed]} next to "is" is a little silly. ltbdl☃ (talk) 05:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All I am saying is we just need to find some way to incorporate saying that the 15.ai platform has been abandoned, and write a ^{[citation needed]} at the end. I don't really care how it is placed, I guess it just needs to follow WP:MOS Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there agreement now that the web site should be reported as abandoned, and that a {{citation needed}} note should be used for that statement? If so, do we have agreement, and is this issue resolved? If not, please state what the remaining disagreement is. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that reporting the site as abandoned and simply placing a *citation needed tag* is appropriate. I know of one editor who may oppose this decision, but said editor has not participated in any part of this dispute discussion yet. If I see that the majority of editors also share this sentiment, I feel that we could then talk about how to properly edit the site as abanoned and properly placing a *citation needed tag*. Thought 1915 (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

they’ll definitely oppose this decision, but i agree to this. ltbdl☃ (talk) 05:45, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can only think of one singular editor who may oppose this. May you please elaborate? Thought 1915 (talk) 15:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

singular they ltbdl☃ (talk) 03:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I apologise for the confusion. Should we wait for their confirmation, or should something else be done? Thought 1915 (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i'll notify them again, let's see if they answer. ltbdl☃ (talk) 01:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Im the person who proposed the ^{[citation needed]} replacement. We could for example place in the text, like this:

As of date, it is unknown if 15.ai is abandoned or not, as no activity has been seen in a long time. ^{[citation needed]}

(this is an example only)

in the event that it may not be suitable to just blatantly place a ^{[citation needed]}, To prove that this is abandoned, since we can't add original research as of WP:NOR, we might be able to use discussion threads as seen on Reddit and these other websites. I have provided the links to them below.

Link one

Link two

Link three

Link four

Link five

In my opinion, this one below might be the best as it is independent.You should still see the above references.

Link 6. I definitely think that a reliable source is needed, so here are some examples if the ^{[citation needed]} is not appropriate. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 02:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I worry that the referenced sites may not seem reliable, but I might be wrong. I feel more comfortable with using the *citation needed tag*. Thought 1915 (talk) 22:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. Keep me updated if we see any good references. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 00:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if this is informal, but I believe that we should try to finalise how we should edit the Wikipedia page as we search for sources. I like your proposal of a citation needed tag, and it seems many do as well. How should we go about finalising a decision or making the proposal more concrete? Thought 1915 (talk) 21:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Before we close this, we also could use the ^{[verification needed]} tag instead of ^{[citation needed]} (just saying before we finalize) Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 00:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RocketKnightX made a response on their talk page:

Okay. So, 15 said "I've been alerted that there appears to be a coordinated attack against my project by another service, with affiliated groups spreading rumors that I had abandoned 15.ai, or that I had placed it behind a paywall, or that I had killed myself, etc. I assure you that I am still the same stubborn person I was three years ago when I first launched my project – please don't believe these malicious lies. I'm doing the best I can, and I'll always continue to do so." They tried to mean that the project was not abandoned and is in under maintenance, but some people still not convinced due to waiting too long. The only reason why the project isn't up is that it needs to be perfect, as quality is more important than quantity. RocketKnightX (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

ltbdl☃ (talk) 02:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to the response made by @RocketKnightX:

The website has not even a placeholder page and its subdomain (tf2[dot]15[ai]) is being used for something completely unrelated. Although having absolutely no contact for 1.5 years is part of the reasoning, I feel that the subdomain usage should be a reason to consider.

I appologise if this breaks formality, but saying "only reason" in the last sentence severely oversimplifies the complexity of things. The last clause does not seem to have a relation to the topic. I would also like to mention that 15 has lied before; 15 went onto Twitter before finishing the site despite saying otherwise (the Wikipedia page logo was 15's former profile picture).

This is the responce to the suggestion by @Cooldudeseven7:

As for the *verification needed tag*, I ask if linking the subdomain and 15's other unrelated projects would be sufficient as verification. I personally prefer the *citation needed tag*, as I feel that the main problem is the reliability of the aquired sources for WIkipedian standards. Thought 1915 (talk) 03:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright! It seems that ^{[citation needed]} fits better.

I also saw some other things:

No source code in the website. At the moment, it's just a blank HTML page that has no actual content. the tf2dot15dotai website seems to be something related to a platform named "sourcebans", so it definitely isn't related to 15.ai and might just be the ban page of a team fortress two server. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a minute, I see this in the article:

In September 2022, a year after its last stable release, 15.ai was temporarily taken down in preparation for a future update. As of October 2024, the website is still offline, with 15's most recent post being dated February 2023.

Does this already count as "abandoned?" it has a reference, too.

Due to the recent posts by 15, we might have to instead write in the article

"Although there is supposedly supposed to be an update, due to the long time period, it is usually thought that 15.ai is abandoned.^{[citation needed]}". We don't have to put it in the way I just put it- just an example. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that it could if used alongside another tweet 15 said regarding an implied timeframe. But for "it is usually thought" in the text you suggested, I could place a couple user-generated content with this sentiment to back this statement up. I simply worry if citing user-generated content for opinions is considered reliable in terms of the types of citations that should be done. Thought 1915 (talk) 13:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with the tweet idea either, however it might be hard to find a notable one. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 14:13, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, very little independent sources regarding 15 are currently going around besides Tweets, the domains, and the sources you showed. This thread is getting quite long, so I plan on using the Editor Statement space to propose how the page should be edited once I have time. Thought 1915 (talk) 20:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I, Thought 1915, would like to propose the following:
The article will be in the past tense since the website currently has no content. The state will be placed as abandoned with the ^{[citation needed]} tag added at the end, since most of the sources that prove this are either original research or not reliable yet. The ^{[citation needed]} tag will only be temporary until a reliable source proving it can be found.
For context behind stating this, I propose directly citing user sentiments as the reason and a lack of any response (this can include Tweets mentioning 15[dot]ai, the possible user threads shown, and the other projects being worked on.) As additional context, the subdomain and the side projects can be used as context and cited.
I apologize if this seems like a stretch, but I hope this proposal can help bring a consensus. I would also like to mention that an editor on one of the disputed page's talk pages made a very good point on how 15's work on other projects is good proof that the site is abandoned. If it would be possible to use the side projects as citations for the abandonment please tell me.
I also attempted to integrate all of the suggestions by the volunteer and other editors when creating this proposal, so please tell me if you have problems with the proposal or if you would like changes to it.
I hope for the best as Thought 1915 (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This message is a copy of the message I sent to the moderator down below.

Instead of the direct statement of "the site is abandoned" We should take the idea of trying to say a text that I said earlier.

Personally, I think this text below shows that 15.ai may not be fully abandoned, but it is just thought by the community.

Although there is supposedly an update coming, due to the long time period, it is usually thought that 15.ai is abandoned.^{[citation needed]}

This text shows how 15.ai may still be alive but it is just thought that it is abandoned.

Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The filing editor has been blocked indefinitely. However, there are remaining editors who originally said that the site was abandoned, and who said that it was under maintenance. So we can continue to work toward a version of the article that states that the site is abandoned, but is marked with a {{citation needed}} tag, or toward some similar compromise.

Are there any specific questions about how to revise the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of the direct statement of "the site is abandoned" We should take the idea of trying to say a text that I said earlier.

Personally, I think this text below shows that 15.ai may not be fully abandoned, but it is just thought by the community.

Although there is supposedly an update coming, due to the long time period, it is usually thought that 15.ai is abandoned.^{[citation needed]}

This text shows how 15.ai may still be alive but it is just thought that it is abandoned. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fair compromise that I am fine with and that I feel that others would be fine with as well. I cannot speak for others however, so if anybody objects this, please say so.

For the "it is usually thought...." bit of the compromise, I assume that citing user-generated content showing the sentiment was decided against. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thought 1915 (talk) 12:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright! When do you think we should finalize the change if no one objects Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 12:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the same day that one of the files on the page deletes itself for non-fair use (24 October, 2024). For confirmation, keep present tense, and add small section regarding community sense of abandonment, correct? Thought 1915 (talk) 13:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel this would be the best way forward. SuperStain (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion between the editors about how to word the article seems to be constructive. At the start of this moderated discussion, I said not to engage in back-and-forth discussion, and that rule has been ignored, but has been ignored usefully, so I am suspending that rule. Please continue the discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to the rules that were proposed at the onset. I had been invited to participate in this DRN by one of the involved editors due to my activity on other sections of the page, so I just want to state something real quick. I initially did not want to get involved in this case, but this feels to me like a very clear case of WP:PEDANTRY from the single opponent to declaring the site abandoned. The creator of the project has demonstrably worked on other projects, the site has been down for over a year, and the site is excluded from being archived, so we cannot even direct readers of the encyclopedia to an archived version of the site. Furthermore, the domain is being used to host a TF2 server. We do not need "citation needed" tags to state the obvious. It is self-evident per Wikipedia:Citation_needed#When_to_use_this_tag When adding a tag, ask yourself:... Is the knowledge so self-evident that it really does not need to be cited at all?. If the owner magically returns and the project comes to life again, then it can be changed just as easily from abandoned. Abandoned things can be reclaimed, afterall. But also, I invite editors to ask yourselves why this even matters when per Template:Infobox_website the current_status tag is optional. If you all do not agree that a citation needed tag isn't needed because it is self-evident that the website is abandoned, then I propose instead to just remove current status entirely rather than throw "Citation Needed" in the infobox and be done with the problem. See also the incredibly relevant MOS:INFOBOXCITE References are acceptable in some cases, but generally not needed in infoboxes... or if the information is obvious. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I understoof you correctly, your suggestion was to simply remove that "Current Status" part from the infobox, correct? I'd be fine with that.

You also mentioned Pedantry for the citation of abanonment. Since most of the editors have seemingly been fine with the origninal edit I preformed before (with the exception of the one you claim to do Pedantry), I honestly forgot why a dispute discussion occured.

I appologize for the confusion, but @SuperStain and @Cooldudeseven7, please remind me what this dispute was about, if not about the state of the site, which already is considered clear by many of the editors and talk page topics. Because I feel that I am missing something, I will create a sanbox in my user page of what I believe the problems to be. I saw this method used in the other dispute resolutions and feel that this method will allow me to be specific in my questions and concerns without me faultering over what words to say. Please tell me if there are any problems with my approach in sharing my confusion. Thought 1915 (talk) 23:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what the description says:

15.ai is an ai text-to-speech program that has been down for ~19 months. the article said that 15.ai was under maintenance until thought 1915 edited the article to say 15.ai was abandoned, and rocketknightx edited the article back to the status quo. i and rocketknightx edit warred over this, and i apologize for that.

Basically, this is talking about whether or not 15.Ai is abandoned as well as if this should be incorporated into the text.

Thank you, Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 00:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am referring to the fact that editor Rocketknightx has used language implying a personal dislike of the notion that the site is abandoned, followed by insistence in a citation of some sort to prove the site was abandoned. WP:PEDANTRY defines pedantry as Sometimes editors will insist on citations for material simply because they dislike it or prefer some other material, not because the material in any way needs verification Adding emphasis. Given statements like Special:Diff/1249204103 this entire dispute seems to stem from the fact that one editor feels passionately that the project isn't abandoned, and potentially has some sort of personal stake in it Something tells me 15 will make the project not just perfect, but something new and interesting isn't enough to refute the plainly obvious fact that the site is abandoned.

If I understoof you correctly, your suggestion was to simply remove that "Current Status" part from the infobox, correct? I'd be fine with that.

As alternative to including "citation needed", yes, just removing "Current Status" from the infobox is a better choice since we are generally recommended against including citations in infboxes per MOS:INFOBOXCITE, and there is no requirement that the infobox has "current status". The dispute began over edit warring over the infobox, which was changed from "Under Maintenance" to "Abandoned. The Edit Warring party on one side has been indeffed for a different offense, and the other edit warring party hasn't participated in this dispute resolution in 3 days now.

Frankly, the consensus seems to be that the site is obviously abandoned, and since it is self-evident there isn't a need for a citation. Don't get me wrong, the compromise you all worked out is a great example of how things should work, but it might be an entirely unnecessary compromise at this point. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 01:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you that many of the other editors feel the same way about the user mentioned. I feel a bit conflicted about the compromise personally as well; neither side that caused the original dispute can (for one blocked editor's case) or had (in the one you mentioned by name) given explicitly agreement on the compromise to an extent I can properly feel that sentiments over the page are properly solved, and one editor's (the one mentioned by name) only interaction with the dispute has been through the user statement, saying things that had already been said before in the talk topic pages.

In terms of what I would have personally preferred to do, I would have done what the talk pages suggested: call the site abandoned and place it into past tense (but that is what caused the edit war). Thought 1915 (talk) 02:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree I personally feel the same way about this user Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would have done what the talk pages suggested: call the site abandoned and place it into past tense (but that is what caused the edit war)

At which point that becomes a user conduct issue which can be taken up at the relevant edit warring noticeboard. It can also be made note of that dispute resolution has been attempted, and while voluntary, the user in question didn't participate in a meaningful manner. That said, the edit war took place between an indeffed user and a user who isn't participating in the DRN. I don't think we should be making consensus-altering choices on the basis of appeasement to a single party just because they declare WP:IDONTLIKETHAT and now we're concerned they'll edit war over it, is my general point. If you want to double-down on whether or not there is a consensus, we could attempt to run an RfC on the question of whether to depict the site as abandoned or under maintenance, but it feels like that would just be a waste of editor time when there's a single person who opposed the change. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 22:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree! The complete removal of the area might help, however there are a few eye-catching things in the article that might conflict with the article

In September 2022, a year after its last stable release, 15.ai was temporarily taken down in preparation for a future update. As of October 2024, the website is still offline, with 15's most recent post being dated February 2023.

This text may be malformed and shaped into abandoned just like the infobox

I also propose the idea of saying that the community might think that it is abandoned in some form of footnote or side text. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer side text if this option is done, as footnotes are generally rare in Wikipedia articles and I believe that there is enough text and information regarding the community's sentiment that a side text could be feasibly done.

An example of how the side text could go is as follows (taken from my sandbox):

After 1.5 years of waiting, much of the community has felt that 15 had abandoned the project due to a lack of contact, 15's usage of the domain for other projects [something about tf2.15.ai would go here], and working on other activities. The community surrounding this projects believes it to be abandoned. Thought 1915 (talk) 13:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the tf2 15.ai site seems to be down? this seems to be merely a Team fortress two server management platform. (unless im wrong) Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 14:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not wanting to get into potentially outing territory, but the TF2 Server is very much alive. The aforementioned tf2 URL shows activity related to the TF2 server in question and serves as a backend for logging in, banning users, and appealing bans. The TF2 server which it seemingly manages is /mlp/ - Pony on TF2. I agree that the body text should represent that the community think it is abandoned. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 22:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed Ah, seemed that it was probably my network. Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 22:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About 20 hours remain before the dispute resolution finalisations occur. Are there any closing statements that anybody would like to make before a green light to apply the dispute compromise occurs? Thought 1915 (talk) 03:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, just double checking. We are removing "current status" from the infobox and then adding a footnote that says the community thinks that 15.ai is abandoned? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 11:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that we would be doing side text (basically a small section added). Besides that, correct. Thought 1915 (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A footnote is when you have a small mark like a [a] here and a note at the bottom if i'm right at least for wikipedia. Do you want a footnote or a small section added? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 12:59, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer a small section. Thought 1915 (talk) 13:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind placing one on my talk page just to see how we can format it into the text? Also, is this Accepted by everyone? Thanks, ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 13:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the dispute is close to concluding. Shall we begin applying the resolution from this dispute onto the article? (The ongoing article reassessment unrelated to this dispute may make it take longer, but it we agree to begin applying the dispute resolution, I will try to work with the reassessment person so that we can edit while or before/after/during a pause of the reassessment.) Thought 1915 (talk) 01:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with it. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 05:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. It really seems that this works.

Conclusion:

1. Remove current status from infobox

2. Add small section of how it is thought that the 15.ai website is abandoned. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 11:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure how it is communicated to the original moderator that a conclusion has been reached and that we are ready to apply the conclusion edits, but I will try to work things out with the reassessment, as editing an article during an article reassessment may cause problems. I am glad that the problem has been solved. Thought 1915 (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon We are happy to inform that we have reached a conclusion on how to resolve the 15.ai dispute. Please help us finalize on how to finally conclude/finalize. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 12:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was constructive discussion between the editors, and they have informed me that they have reached an agreement. At this point, I am lifting the rule against editing the article. Please edit the article to reflect the agreement that has been reached. Once the article has been edited, this case will be closed as resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will now perform the change into the article. Thank you. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 17:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Thought 1915 thing just happened- do we need a reference for the text I am about to add?

I will not edit this article until I get a reply for verifiability reasons. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 17:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe so, but if one is needed, we can use the links that you have sent earlier in this dispute or some of the replies used in 15's twitter page. Thought 1915 (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will now edit the article. No references added.

Removing: Current Status.

Adding text:

After 1.5 years of waiting, much of the community has felt that 15 had abandoned the project due to a lack of contact, 15's usage of the domain for other projects, and working on other activities. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 21:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. All is well. Thought 1915 (talk) 22:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great to see we have

 Resolved this with an Accepted solution.  Great! work,  Thanks for all of your work, Everything is  Implemented in the article now. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 00:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit was just reverted for violating WP:NPOV. Aw man. What should we do?? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 11:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit clearly violates WP:NPOV, more specifically WP:YESPOV, specifically "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts". Furthermore, there is no citation that supports the edit, so its inclusion is not appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia. HackerKnownAs (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to the text that Thought 1915 said, "I do not believe so, but if one is needed, we can use the links that you have sent earlier in this dispute or some of the replies used in 15's twitter page. " If you need us to cite a source, that is OK. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 17:26, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The inclusion of "much of the community has felt" frames the section as an opinion, and not a fact. Besides the citations, is there any other problem with the section that you would like to address? Thought 1915 (talk) 20:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:HackerKnownAs - Do you wish to take part in moderated discussion, subject to the rules described above? I have two questions. First, I see that you restored the status in the infobox to read Under Maintenance. Please explain how this is consistent with Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. Second, do you have a compromise to suggest? I also have a question for all editors. Should I develop an RFC on the status of the web site? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would greatly appreciate extra RFC regarding this topic. Thought 1915 (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a draft RFC on the status of 15.ai for review at Talk:15.ai/Draft RFC on Status . I will move it to the article talk page and remove the tag from the {{rfc}} to activate it after we have agreement that this RFC addresses the issue. Are these the options for the Current Status field in the infobox?

Are there any other questions that need to be addressed in the RFC, such as any wording the body of the article? The description of the status in the body of the article should be consistent with the infobox.

Are there any other content issues that need to be addressed? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When this issue was originally brought up, I wanted to bring the question of whether the article was to be in past or present tense. I plan on being less active regarding this dispute though, so I hope there are other editors here that can go forth with helping bring over a conclusion while I take a step back for some time. Thank you for your patience through all of this. Thought 1915 (talk) 05:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As Thought said, I also feel the need to be partially omitted from this discussion as it has been going for quite a while now, Other editors can voice their opinion too. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 11:13, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Tuner (radio) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Andrevan (talk · contribs)
• Kvng (talk · contribs)
• Fountains_of_Bryn_Mawr (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Are WP:GALLERY and other images appropriate to illustrate the progress and development of tuners over time and their varying design considerations?

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Tuner_(radio)#Image_gallery

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Users are arguing policy that doesn't exist or doesn't apply. I am trying to improve the article and these editors are throwing weight around without a sane rational basis to remove good faith improvements.

WP:GALLERY is clear that these are generally undesirable. Andrevan claims that the gallery documents the development of tuners but I don't immediately get that from the pictures or captions. If we're going to try to tell that story, we need improvements but I'm not convinced telling this story is important and may introduce an WP:UNDUE issue. There is already a Commons link where these images can be perused by readers. ~Kvng (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andrevan seems to be unaware of consensus guidelines on image use in articles,in this case adding 10 redundant[1] images of radio tuner face-plates, some scattered across unrelated sections. Trying to explan that Wikipedia is not a repository of images and that they should have MOS:PERTINENCE, be placed in context and against descriptive text, and be readable at thumbnail resulted in WP:ICANTHEARYOU on the part of Andrevan [2] [3] and reverts of any attempted improvement [4]. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am ready to try to act as the moderator for discussion of this content dispute. Please read DRN Rule A. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of moderated discussion, as of any dispute resolution procedure, is to improve the article (not to address the conduct of the editors). Please state that you agree to follow the rules for the discussion. It appears that the main issue, or maybe the only issue, has to do with images. It seems that one editor wants to include a large number of images in the article, and two other editors disagree with the inclusion of the images. The editors have already referred to the image use policy and in particular the policy on image galleries, but please read it again. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My first question is: Is there an issue about the inclusion of certain images in the article?

My second question is: Are there any other article content issues other than an image dispute? If so, what is the other issue?

My third and fourth questions are about the images. Third, are all of the images in Commons? If not, what is their copyright and fair use status? Fourth, will each editor please state concisely why they think that the the image use policy supports their view about images? Address all of your answers to the moderator (me) and the community. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. The dispute is about the number of images and their MOS:PERTINENCE to the content.
2. I'm not aware of any other content dispute.
3. All images are in Commons and I don't know of any fair use issues.

~Kvng (talk) 20:08, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an issue about the inclusion of certain images in the article?

Yes, Images unreadable at thumb MOS:IMAGEQUALITY --:> showing the subject too small... so Yamaha T-420, Onkyo T-4000 are too small - unreadable at thumb.

Are there any other article content issues other than an image dispute? If so, what is the other issue?

No

Are all of the images in Commons?

Yes

Please state concisely why they think that the the image use policy supports their view about images?

WP:IMAGEPOL - WP:IG is pretty clear:

• A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article - This is a shoehorn per adding editors own statement.

• a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the below paragraphs or moved to Wikimedia Commons. This is an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject, no way to discern one from the other or why they are there, and no way to improve the images - they are generally unreadable.other than looking like a tuner (and some of them don't even look like a tuner). And they are already in the Wikimedia Commons.

• cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images Text already describes the evolution of Tuners and, per the current text, two images are all you need: an image of tuner vacuum tubes, an image of tuner transistors.

• Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article while avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made These images do not collectively add to the reader's understanding because they are barely readable and repetitive so no contrast or comparison can be made.

Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Yes, the issue is about the images. 2. No, there is no other dispute other than the value of the images and image gallery and whether it is telling a useful story or illustrating something useful. 3. All images are on Commons and there are no issues with copyright. 4. Basically my argument hinges on such text in WP:GALLERY as A gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images...Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article while avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made....Images should be captioned to explain their relevance to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery...Some subjects easily lend themselves to image-heavy articles for which image galleries are suitable, such as plants (e.g., Lily), fashion (e.g., Wedding dress), and the visual arts (e.g., Oil painting). Others do not My argument is that these images are not, as has been claimed, blurry, dark, unreadable, low quality, or redundant. They are clear illustrations of what a Tuner is and what a Tuner has looked like. They are selected to show a good cross-section of different images - front and back, inside and outside, Japanese, German, American, analog, digital, wood, metal, plastic, tube, solid state, etc. It is not necessary to be able to read the writing or the numbers, as those do not contribute to anything useful that isn't explained in the article itself. The point of the images is to illustrate consumer electronics and digital products industrial design. The arguments made don't hold up to scrutiny regarding the images or the policy or the consensus. Originally, I had placed the images all as thumbnails alongside the text, but I changed it to a gallery as many other articles do. There is no blanket consensus not to place these useful images, as has been claimed. If a specific image is perceived to be problematic, we could find a replacement or remove that one, but I do not see that overall, the criticisms that have been rendered on the images are policy-based or justifiable. Andre🚐 02:29, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The galleries in the examples given in green text contribute to the article in specific ways. In Tuner (radio), the gallery is just dropped at the end of an already overloaded section. It may turn out that a gallery is a good thing to have in an improved version of the article. Per WP:DEMOLISH I'm not actually opposed to retaining it if that's where we're heading (I do, however, have some skepticism about how well that will work out) but I don't yet see the beginnings of any of that in the text. The only hints that this may be coming are talk page statements from Andrevan and inclusion of dates and countries in the gallery captions. If Andrevan can show us a source or two we can use to back the story of tuner development, that would help convince me that this direction has some promise. ~Kvng (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that one editor wants to include a gallery of images of radio tuners, and two other editors disagree. I am asking each editor to provide a revised statement of why they think that the image gallery either is consistent with the policy on images or is not consistent with it. If there is no agreement, we will develop a Request for Comments on the yes-no question of whether to include the gallery in the article. So, in preparing your statement, develop a statement that will be included in the RFC for the attention of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any other content issues?

The image gallery is consistent with both the image use policy as well as the examples of many other articles which have detailed image galleries, much larger and taking up more space and more redundant than the modest image gallery on Tuner (radio). I originally created this article back in 2004 and it was in a very poor state until I started working on it again recently. I already have a detailed narrative in the works in the article with references, and a big part of that has to do with the early growth of the FM radio and TV and American consumer electronics industry after World War II, followed by the growth of electronics development and production primarily in Japan and the production of cheap, miniaturized transistors and the growth of digital electronics. That is illustrated by the photos which show the evolution of the tuner from the days of the vacuum tube to solid state circuit boards. You do not need to be an expert to understand what a tube is and what a board is and see the little capacitors and filters and stuff and then see how the analog knobs give way to digital, tape deck looking, black, plastic hi-fi. If the specific images look a bit bad to someone, I am open to swapping out the images for better-looking images, but there's absolutely no policy basis that categorically rules out having image galleries. I do not at all see how it is a constructive or consensus building activity to just come along and remove image galleries when many many other pages have them. The images I have selected for the page are a small sampling of the many images on Commons for this topic, the ones that have decent lighting and a well-framed subject that clearly shows what it is without bad framing, reflections or weird shadows or darkness. I've chosen a chronology from 1960 to 1990, and several American units, a German unit, and a Japanese unit, one of each showing the guts, ie tube, board, or another kind of board. In some cases it's the front and back of the same thing to show a different angle and give a better idea of what you're looking at. All of this to me is reasonable to try to show what a tuner is, which shows you something you don't get from the text. You wouldn't know that a vacuum tube is a weird round thingy like a tin can or that a ceramic filter is a tiny diode that solders onto a small lead, but you do actually kind of get that from the images. You wouldn't necessarily understand the idea of turning a dial to manipulate a radio if you never saw one in real life. There are kids on this website who were born in 2005 let's say, who have never seen one of these. I think they improve the article and improve Wikipedia. Andre🚐 08:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:IG Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery of images must explain (something). Images should not be redundant such as a 1960 dial with knobs, a 1977 dial with knobs and a 1978 dial with knobs. Parts on a circuit board are by their very nature hidden in clutter, ambiguous, and the subject is too small to be read at thumb. WP:OTHERCONTENT arguments are not a good reason to keep something. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 12:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am on vacation this week and won't participate again until next week. Hopefully you can keep this moving based on what I've already said. ~Kvng (talk) 14:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a draft RFC at Talk:Tuner (radio)/Gallery RFC. I am asking the proponent of including the image gallery to put the proposed image gallery in the draft RFC. It will go live after we review and discuss it. Do the editors want to include statements for and against the inclusion of the image gallery in the RFC, or are they satisfied to make their cases in the Discussion section when the RFC is live?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I added the gallery to it and I'm fine with the discussion having the statemens after live if everyone else is. Andre🚐 18:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm back. My primary objection is that the gallery doesn't tell the story it is purported to tell. Deletion is not the only option. Improving the gallery may address my objection. I'm willing to help make improvements to see where that goes. In the spirit of WP:ATD I think we should give due consideration to non-deletion alternatives. ~Kvng (talk) 23:48, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to include two concise statements, one in support of an image gallery, and one opposed to an image gallery for this article. Since one of the editors who opposes the image gallery is on break, probably the other one can compose the statement. After that is done, the RFC can be activated. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am ready to activate the RFC if there is still an impasse. However, one of the editors who had previously disagreed with the addition of the image gallery says that they are willing to discuss changes to the image gallery or compromise. So I will ask each of the editors who has disagreed with the image gallery what changes, if any, they think should be made. I will also ask the editor who has proposed the image gallery whether they have any ideas for changes to the gallery. We will keep the RFC in draft to activate if it becomes necessary. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:02, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be happy to compromise by advancing more constructive changes to the image gallery such as swapping out individual images if some are less liked for whatever reason, reducing the number or otherwise making adjustments. I'm also still working on, though I haven't been in the last few days, expanding the article narrative to explain more of the detail around the history of consumer electronics and stereo equipment with an eye to radio tuners specifically and the evolution of vintage hi-fi vis globalization, miniaturization, and the evolution of user interfaces, or collaborate on how we might do that. Andre🚐 04:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, my main concern is that the story of tuner evolution be more clearly told in the gallery. We can talk about how to do that but if we are doing this as original research it's not going to fly. Do we have some reliable sources to base this story on? ~Kvng (talk) 14:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not original research. Everything in the article is well-referenced and I'm making sure it's all grounded in reliable sources. Andre🚐 17:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My thought was to create a separate section for the gallery and add an introduction based on what you've said here and at Talk:Tuner (radio). If I created such an introduction, would you be able to source it? ~Kvng (talk) 17:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I'm open to that. Andre🚐 17:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also interested to know whether Fountains of Bryn Mawr thinks this approach has promise, because as you've pointed out, even if this works for the both of us, 2 vs 1 is not a consensus. ~Kvng (talk) 17:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:V -->All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. WP:IG --> Generally, a gallery or cluster of images should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text. We are not reinventing the wheel here, policy and consensus guidelines already cover this. It looks to me that there is not much more to "history of tuners" that can't be told in 3 or 4 images. The gallery as it stands now has no context and is primary sourced. There would have to be secondary sources backing up an intro and making these comparisons, in photographs you can read. None of that exists now. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 11:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PRIMARY says primary sources can be used with care for simple facts. The primary sources are simply used for the names and release information for the tuners. I am not using primary sources for interpretation. Andre🚐 18:26, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are putting them in sequence as specific steps in development, that is interpretation. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, the sequence is based on the years.... are you saying knowing that 1990 is later than 1960 is OR? Andre🚐 01:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a convincing no to my question to Fountains of Bryn Mawr. I think we should proceed with the RFC. We still need text for Talk:Tuner_(radio)/Gallery_RFC#Reason_against_Image_Gallery. I can work on that but it will take a day or two to get to. ~Kvng (talk) 02:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the statement. Please review and improve if necessary. ~Kvng (talk) 19:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I don't really think "An effort to improve the gallery to address this ran up against concerns" is accurate, as all editors did was try to remove the gallery. Andre🚐 06:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The effort I'm referring to the discussion in this section. I've edited the statement to clarify. ~Kvng (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have continued disagreement about whether to include the image gallery? Please take another look at the RFC, because if we still have disagreement, I will activate the RFC and close this discussion.

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the RFC is ready to go. Andre🚐 06:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've made one requested adjustment to the RFC. I think it is ready to go. ~Kvng (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have activated the RFC, which will run for thirty days. If there are no other issues, I will close this thread as being resolved by the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for facilitating. Andre🚐 02:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Wolf (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nagging Prawn (talk · contribs)
• Wolverine_XI (talk · contribs)
• Moxy (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I attempted to add a sentence on the Wolf Wikipedia page citing a report from a peer-reviewed scientific journal of one wolf eating 181 Payette's Short-Winged Grasshoppers. Unfortunately, I encountered unexpected resistance, despite there having been no such disputes regarding this report in the citing literature. I was told to bring it up to the talk page, which I did. I was told to justify my edit, which I tried to do, citing precedent for similar dietary detail in other Wikipedia articles. An anonymous user concurred that it seemed worthy of inclusion, but I did not receive a rebuttal. After waiting for several weeks, I believed the support from a third party and lack of response otherwise might justify reverting the reversion. However, my edit was reverted again. Upon requesting reasons why this occurred on the talk page, I was told there was no context for the fact I was trying to add to the article. However, the citation provides this context, and upon mentioning this I received no response. After some days, I tried again to add this fact to the article, but after a few more days it was reverted again, with no new arguments given. As far as I can tell, this edit does not violate Wikipedia guidelines, so I am at a loss.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

I was told to open a topic about this on the Wolf talk page, so I acquiesced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wolf#Including_a_note_about_a_paper_reporting_a_lone_wolf_that_ate_181_grasshoppers When objections were raised, I made good faith attempts to address them in this topic.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Hopefully, I would like to be able to add this observation to the article, as it is such a surprising report. It neatly demonstrates the dietary breadth mentioned in the sentence that would have preceded this edit. Failing that, I would like robust reasons why this should be excluded. I hope moderation can encourage either the addition of this fact or meaningful dialogue about why it shouldn't be added.

One wolf eating 181 grasshoppers is hardly surprising. Why this user keeps on pushing this useless fact is beyond me. I'd like to hear what others have to say. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Odd random trivia about ONE wolf WP:INDISCRIMINATE.Moxy🍁 11:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to act as a meditator in this dispute. I have no connection to the article or any of the users involved.

DRN is a voluntary process, and further meditation is on hold pending a summary to be provided by User:Wolverine XI. Should he not respond by next Monday, the dispute will be moderated between only you two.

In the meantime, please confirm in the respective sections below that you agree on having a moderated dispute and will follow WP:DRNA. NotAGenious (talk) 14:26, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to a moderated dispute and accept the ground rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagging Prawn (talk • contribs) 03:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure.Moxy🍁 12:39, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will, at least temporarily, act as the moderator. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. I am asking each editor to state concisely what they want to change in the article that another editor wants to leave the same, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Do not explain why you want that, at this time. I am only asking "What?", because "Why?" can come later. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add an example of wolves' dietary breadth; namely a wolf consuming 181 grasshoppers. The two other editors involved here do not want this added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagging Prawn (talk • contribs) 20:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Randomstaplers (talk · contribs)
• Bon courage (talk · contribs)
• Crossroads (talk · contribs)
• Conyo14 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is my first extensive talking through a semi-controversial dispute, so forgive me if I wasn't perfect.

So, for the past month, I've had a bit of a problem with the articles wording. I edited it, it was reverted, discussion ensued. Eventually, we settled on a consensus for about a month from Mid-September to October of 2024. It was on a dispute between findings from source C and this source J, which cites source P. This is reflected in Special:Permalink/1245461692 on September 13th.

In the meantime, I decided to post some information I'd found for readers to see. I was not warned about this behavior at the time, but I feel it necessary, because I don't censor my own thoughts and biases.

On October 17th, I noticed that there were text-source integrity issues with source C, first documented at Special:Permalink/1251618081.

As a result I felt the need to rephrase certain parts of the article to better reflect the newly found reliability problems.

As I said, I'm inexperienced, but I feel there might be a content problem here, especially after seeing the referencing problems in Special:Permalink/1251618081, and the use of sources by the review that have been rejected.

Anyways, I hope working through DRN will help us improve dispute resolution in the future, and highlight areas where I, and we, need improvement.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarifying policy, and also, what to do about this article, with regards to how it treats its references, linked here (archived)

(involved; apologies if I am not getting the formatting right) The fundamental problem here is that Randomstaplers is engaging in what another editor succinctly labeled perform[ing] amateur peer-review on WP:MEDRS sources - in this case, the Cochrane review article above called "Source C". [5] It is not the place of Wikpedia editors to negate the findings of such MEDRS sources based on personal analysis, only to reflect expert views as expressed in the highest quality published sources.

Yet, Randomstaplers is insisting on this edit. It contains the text A review from the Cochrane Collaboration, updated in 2023, claimed (contrary to the claims of some of its cited papers[165][166]) that masking had little effect on the spread of viral illness.[6] 6 is the Cochrane review itself; 165 and 166 are individual studies Cochrane cites, which Randomstaplers is here clearly using to argue against the review's conclusions. This is original research and completely contrary to the instructions of MEDRS.

That previous edit also has at least some other problems. It states about randomized controlled trials (RCTs) that Various reviews on RCTs find that masking reduces the rate of respiratory infection, but cites for this at least some sources that do not review RCTs at all, such as this and this. I can't ignore the irony that this is a clear lack of text-source integrity in their own content, the very thing they are accusing Cochrane of. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed edit(s) seem to be a long and elaborate way of not simply saying with the best sources say (specifically, a Cochrane Review). I think we should just summarize the best sources faithfully. Bon courage (talk) 06:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The filing editor has not listed and notified the other editors. One of the other editors has replied, and so does not need to be notified, but should be listed. Other editors who were involved in the discussion on the article talk page must be listed and notified. The filing editor and the editor who has replied should read DRN Rule D and the ArbCom ruling on COVID controversies, and should acknowledge that they have read those rules. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:36, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Acknowledged. I did notify @Bon Courage with substituted {{drn-notice}}, but they appear to have deleted the template. If we come to a resolution, we might need to notify a proxy editor, because I... kinda don't want to be the one to write it.

When I said that the other editors should be listed by the filing editor, I meant that the other editors should be listed by the filing editor. I meant that they should be listed, regardless of whether they had responded without being notified, and regardless of whether they had declined to participate in moderated discussion. The filing editor should still list all of the other editors.

I said that the editors should acknowledge that they have read the ArbCom decision that COVID is a contentious topic. I did not ask for an 800-word history, which I do not need.

Since two editors have posted, we can continue, although the listing of other editors is still required, and is the responsibility of the filing editor. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. So I will ask each editor to make a concise statement about what part of the article they want to change that another editor wants to leave the same, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. It is not important to explain why you want to change the article or leave it the same. We can discuss that later. Just tell what in the article is the subject of the dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Listed.⸺(Random)staplers 04:37, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll ignore the previous issues that got consensus last month. The issue right now is that this contribution, which I implemented following noticing issues with Source C. It was reverted by Crossroads, and then we agreed to implement in stages. The first paragraph got added. The second paragraph then got reverted by Bon Voyage courage. Further discussion did not go anywhere with regards to improving the paragraph. ⸺(Random)staplers 04:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Corrected a typo. Dang it... they pop up more often for me than the average editor, AFAICT.⸺(Random)staplers 16:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Late addition: It just occurred to me: I'd like to also discuss the addition of {{unbalanced}} to the relevant section. I posited the analogy of life jackets earlier (with regards to regulation), since for some reason, no paper has decided to cite the relevant regulation they are following for their RCT (this drove me nuts, given how much I have written on respirators).

Although we can't conduct original research, I feel we do have an obligation to let viewers know what research needs to be conducted to improve the article, because RCTs... also show that a lot of scientists read Wikipedia first. See [6] (linked paper) and particularly this paper (which is cited by the former).

I apologize for not making it clear earlier that I had read these papers earlier with regards to my copyright work, which inevitably influenced my judgement on my talk page.⸺(Random)staplers 20:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, I tried to gather all I could from the talk page and it seems that you're disputing peer-reviewed articles with what content should be addressed in the article. Granted, WP:PERENNIAL allows you to view and discuss whether a website or journal is reliable. But if two peer-reviewed journals are disagreeing with each other, then that's content in of itself. I would go with whatever is more prevalent/frequent in discussed literature/news articles. Many scientific journals can exist on RTCs and offer differing opinions, but what you're trying to edit in, feels out of place. I also feel it borders some more original research. It also doesn't exactly have a WP:NPOV. The very first statement, feels false, given that Cochrane was disputed by other journals and there was only one other non-disputed journal. The rest of the paragraph doesn't even line up correctly compared to what it would have been after the constructive edits completed. I don't think what's current is perfect though, but I also don't think your edits would have made it better. Try re-writing it again? Conyo14 (talk) 04:54, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Conyo14, well you see, that's the problem. I don't have any other perspectives to work with. And the initial bold edits weren't refined, (other than the first paragraph, which was accepted).

The big problem, IMO, is a logical one. From the life jacket analogy earlier: How are we supposed to explain regulatory context of each RCT? That's why I brought up 29 CFR 1910 earlier. You change the regulation, you change the results. You change the way life jackets are regulated, the police patrols, etc. You change how effective they are.

There are a couple papers that I read in the article that point out that RCTs can't be relied on alone, and trying to imply the elephant in the room, so to speak, without directly bringing up the elephant is a challenge. (I already know WP:NOR exists, but the talk page allows a bit more leeway, and it's been bothering me, as you can tell).

I tried removal way back in September, obviously that was rejected, since I missed/forgot a few guidelines.

Now, I'm trying to figure out an edit, keeping in mind all these editorial consensuses, how to explain to readers this discrepancy, with the sources we have at the moment. (And also keeping in mind there are scientists reading this, as I pointed out above).

And on top of all that: The Cochrane source has mislinks and links to a study whose protocols were failed by the authors, and the review does not disclose this! WP:Inaccuracy, and all that.⸺(Random)staplers 05:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• By the way, if any of you happen to have a ref, feel free to interject. Just because I'm making these claims doesn't mean it's original research, since I may have heard the statement from someone else and missed or forgot the source. See the first section in Wikipedia:These are not original research. Off topic: There were statements in the N95 article that were implied in the FR documents I read, before I was able to confirm them through publications and the Wayback machine for instance. But that took a while. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Definitely don't be worried about scientists quoting Wikipedia. They should not be reliable if they're quoting Wikipedia.

  Second off, hearing from a source but not providing it is kinda sorta OR. Conyo14 (talk) 06:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Conyo14 - Of course most scientists won't say they are quoting Wikipedia... But even if they aren't quoting them, it influences their judgement. It's been documented in the judicial system, see [7]. Speaking of kinda sorta... yeah. If you've been editing like I have, you can see how my POV can shift, which I emphasize my POV to try and account for this.⸺(Random)staplers 06:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Conyo14 So I thought about this a little more, and it's occurred to me why our OR perspectives seem to differ. I wrote the part on the Hawks Nest Tunnel Disaster, which was caused by voluntary respirator regulations. So... nobody in the disaster wore respirators.

There is also the 2001 DOL study, plus papers like this one from 2024 and this one from 2011, and this one exploring the reasons why. [8], which I mentioned on the talk page, is one of the few RCTs that actually takes usage into account, but they don't cite 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(a) when it comes to why they excluded people with facial hair.

Like, these connections seem obvious to me as someone who has written about respirators a lot. But obviously, I can't (and haven't) mention (or mentioned) all of this directly in the article, because this is an article about the pandemic, and I can't draw conclusions about the paper from 2024, because it just presents data.

Sidenote: A lot more papers have been published about this pandemic than any other, so it is possible that someone with my POV has written something. On the other hand, a lot of the AIHA's perspective is very much locked behind paywalls.⸺(Random)staplers 17:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a fair assessment, though I think quoting yourself (I know you won't be doing that) would be a WP:COI. The point I'm trying to make is that a source that quotes other sources can do so as long as it is considered reliable. If you are questioning the reliability of a source, you ought to open a discussion at WP:PERENNIAL.

That being said, I very much see the connection of dots. If there is a source that shows this connection, I think that would be something that can be added in. Provided Bon courage and Crossroads agree on the language that will be added. Conyo14 (talk) 17:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are sources in the article, some put in place well before I got involved, that push back on the reliability of RCTs. The question is how to phrase it properly. If we were to give it too much detail, we would run the risk of making it seem like the RCT conversation is more important than it actually is, and obscure the lack of information. That's what I was trying to avoid with my last edit, by consolidating views as briefly as possible, per WP:Inaccuracy#Approaches to reporting potentially inaccurate material. That last edit was also trying to remove thread mode, which... might also make it more likely that the issue will be noticed (due to the WP:REALWORLD concern of having scientists being influenced by Wikipedia) rather than glossed over as a controversy, IMO.

This might be a lot to take in, so I'll put together a proposal in a few days. ⸺(Random)staplers 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This still looks like a lot of WP:OR on your part, especially about N95s. It's not as simple as you seem to be saying; N95s meeting safety regulation is largely irrelevant here. There are all sorts of reasons why N95s might nevertheless be less effective than they are designed to be when worn by the general public; they may have poor fit, adjust them a lot, not follow mandates, etc. Plus, the topic of the Cochrane review, of the article, and of almost all mask mandates ever implemented, are "masks", not N95s specifically. All that matters here is what MEDRS reviews say about the topic of the article. If the Cochrane review is criticized by another review, that can be included, but not OR. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Crossroads As I have said before, there are citations already included in the article, even before I got involved, criticizing the Cochrane study. And there's still the issue of the mis-linking to work out, which has been noted in the web archive. We can work that out later, for now, I need to come up with a workable proposal.⸺(Random)staplers 03:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you didn't notice that DRN Rule A says that there should not be any back-and-forth discussion between the editors. However, because there has been extended back-and-forth discussion, and it has been civil, we don't need that restriction, so I am changing to DRN Rule B, and I will allow the discussion to continue. We have one editor who wasn't listed. I am adding their name. Continue discussion. If you (the participating editors) conclude that discussion is not making any progress, I will try to refocus it. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Crossroads @Conyo14 - Crossroads, your continuous comments on WP:OR annoyed me, so after more searching, yes, policy design RCT is indeed a missing POV - from Policy Design for COVID-19:

However, without conducting a randomized controlled trial, it is highly difficult to compare different government mandates’ efficacies (Haushofer and Metcalf 2020). Given the inherent challenges in launching randomized experiments (e.g., Abaluck et al. 2021), is it feasible to design an observational study with existing data on worldwide mandate adoptions to gauge their relative efficacies? [Continues on in a paper not about RCTs]

The following is more... anecdotal, but I feel it's worth mentioning:

• This paper mentioned before doesn't cite 1910.134,
• But Willeke, when he's testing surgical masks and DFM respirator filtration efficiency of all things, and only really needs to cite 30 CFR 11 (citation 23), nonetheless cites 1910.134 in citation 21 [9]. (This paper, if you recall, was cited by the NIOSH TB guide).

Isn't that weird? The POV slant of over-focusing on 1910.134 doesn't seem unheard of.

I would be careful, Crossroads, about mentioning "OR" over and over and over again without considering the situations in Wikipedia:These are not original research, or the fact people might not have the forethought of looking things up at the moment if they are busy arguing their point. I would also suggest asking for sources respectfully before making a claim about an editor.⸺(Random)staplers 09:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I had totally forgot that I had cited this link from CIDRAP news in the past: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/study-masks-vs-n95-respirators-health-workers-spurs-concerns

By the way, heads up: I should have my proposal up in a few hours. It'll take a couple weeks to implement, even though it doesn't change all that much TBH.——Randomstapler's alt 21:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Genocide (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Bogazicili (talk · contribs)
• Buidhe (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue concerns examples used in Genocide studies, History and Methods sections. (Primarily, removal of examples about Americas Bogazicili (talk) 04:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC))[reply]

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Genocide#European_colonialism
• Talk:Genocide#Removal_of_sourced_information
• Talk:Genocide#Incomplete_information_in_history_section
• Talk:Genocide#Additional_problems_with_recent_edits

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

1) Help with resolving potential WP:DUE and WP:NPOV issues 2) Help with representing the sources in the best possible way

To be honest, I have not found DR helpful before. And in this case, I'm not sure what the dispute is, so I will have a hard time summarizing it. Does BG still want to reinstate all of his edits? If so, I already explained on the talk page why I don't think they are beneficial to the encyclopedia, so I'm not sure it would be helpful to rehash. (t · c) buidhe 04:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am ready to act as the moderator if two (or more) editors want moderated discussion. Please read DRN Rule A and state whether you agree to moderated discussion subject to those rules. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. (The purpose of any dispute resolution procedure is to improve the encyclopedia.) Please state concisely what you want to change in the article that the other editor wants to leave the same, or what you want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. It is not necessary at this point to explain why you want to change the article or leave it unchanged; we will discuss that later. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to moderated discussion subject to those rules. These issues are mainly the difference in this diff. These are:
1) Giving examples to colonial (and settler colonial) genocides in Genocide#History, using United States and Australia as examples. I had also said more examples can be given in history section, overall.
2) Giving examples to genocide methods in Genocide#Methods, with some of the methods used in Americas (and these methods were not mentioned in that section).
3) Definition of settler colonies, and giving examples of settler colonies, in Genocide#Genocide_studies
4) Wording issues in second and third paragraphs in Genocide#History and other wording issues in above areas

To show WP:DUE for those examples, I provided quotes from the introduction chapters in WP:Secondary sources, such as The Cambridge World History of Genocide Volume 2 and in Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies. I also gave examples from genocide entries in WP:Tertiary sources, such as The Social Science Encyclopedia, The Encyclopedia of Politics and Religion, and Encyclopedia of Global Justice. I tried to accommodate wording concerns (for example: [14][15]). But we've been unable to resolve the issues.

Overall, my main concern is examples mentioning Americas or indigenous people are being removed in the article. This concern is amplified by this journal article: Wikipedia’s Indian problem: settler colonial erasure of native American knowledge and history on the world’s largest encyclopedia Bogazicili (talk) 16:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Titan2456 (talk · contribs)
• SheriffIsInTown (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A large paragraph on the page titled “May 9 riots and crackdown” is the issue. There is already a main article on the May 9 riots so the section should summarize it. There used to be one paragraph talking about the riots and the government’s view, while one paragraph talking about the PTI’s view and crackdown, balanced. But user SheriffIsInTown added a large paragraph talking about a court order against PTI’s founder which is clearly not notable in my view as the section the “May 9 riots and crackdown” section is under is about PTI’s history. The entire section should talk about significant moments in PTI’s history but spends a whole paragraph on one court order by an Anti terrorism court issued by one judge. The paragraph seems to be almost the length of the source itself and is not notable in my view, while SheriffIsInTown has argued that it is notable. I have argued for the removal or heavy trimming of the section while Sheriff has only agreed to trim it slightly.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf#May_9_riots_ATC_order

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Providing a third opinion is needed to decide whether to remove the information. Discussions between me and SheriffIsInTown usually result in stalemates so a third opinion to decide an action is necessary.