Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: Difference between revisions

The Requests for Page Protection page is backlogged. If an admin or two could take a look, it would be appericated. - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 27, 2008 @ 04:50 (archiving comment) Fram (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commodore Sloat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

csloat has been engaging in disruptive editing on John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 since October 25, 2008. After a month of disruptive behavior, administrative intervention is required.

• His first edit was a POV contribution with a section title name that drew a conclusion that the source material did not. The first diff, and a later edit which sourced it. This initial contribution was also incorrectly placed in a section which lists events chronologically. The result of this edit was a long heated content dispute which was ultimately resolved satisfying everyone involved to some degree. In the interest of keeping this brief, I'll just say that csloat's contribution to the consensus was hardly constructive and he exercised no compromise whatsoever. Upon request, multiple specific incidents can be diffed.
• Repeatedly reverted deletion of libelous material only supported by biased media outlets. Here, here, and here. The content is no longer in the article. Again, contributions related to this on the talk page were hardly constructive.
• Insistence on using pejorative terms. Related to this first contribution, multiple sources have been found showing that Muslims find the term "jihadist" offensive, so general consensus on the talk page determined that "Islamic extremist" is a more appropriate term. His only "proof" is links on Amazon and pretentious comments. Yet again, no real constructive contribution to consensus. A few examples here, here, here, and here where he claimed the argument was "conceded" after a mere 20 hours of inactivity on the talk page.
• Removed factual information from World Opinion section, claiming that a source which drew no conclusion drew a conclusion. First collection of edits here, and more here where he also unilaterally restored the "jihadist" term. He then switched his tactic to tag abuse, applying a totally-disputed section tag which claims neutrality and factual accuracy are in dispute. After applying this tag abusively multiple times, and being warned that it was not the appropriate tag to apply, I finally warned him on his user page, indicating this would be his last warning. The warning was for a mention on the Vandalism noticeboard, but considering all of his incidents I think a disruptive editor report was more warranted. He shortly after removed the warning, calling the warning an abusive lie, (similarly to how he removed a 3RR warning calling it "incorrect" in the edit summary) and then reapply the inappropriate tag yet again -- at the same time restoring the pejorative "jihadist" term (he's done that a lot to say the least).

There's more evidence available if needed related to these incidents, but I think in this brief report there is enough to indicate disruptive behavior. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 18:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above is all a content dispute. The dispute got disruptive because Amwestover refused to abide by typical Wikipedia policy which allows the use of such tags as the NPOV tag and the Totally-disputed tag to warn readers that the material they are about to read is disputed. I chose to employ the tag in order to avoid an ongoing edit war with Amwestover. The other editors on the page have been more reasonable and have tried to talk the issues out; Amwestover has instead chosen to personally attack me over and over, and to edit war over the tag. His removal of the tag is extremely unjustified - even if he feels that I am wrong in the content dispute, he should leave the tag up and attempt to resolve the dispute in talk, as I tried to do. Instead, he bullied me in talk and kept removing the tag without addressing my arguments on the talk page at all. Then he posted a phony warning on my talk page falsely accusing me of vandalism. I removed the warning and warned him on the article talk page to stop being disruptive. I see he has now escalated his disruption to the AN/I page in the hopes of getting me sanctioned. It is inappropriate to attempt to resolve a content dispute through sanctions.

If anyone would like a fuller explanation of the reason I felt that the term "jihadist" is appropriate on the page or the reason that the totally-disputed tag should stay on the page until the dispute is resolved, please consult the talk page (read the last sections in order rather than just the comments cherry-picked by Amwestover to make me look bad), but I don't feel that we should extend the content dispute over to AN/I so I will not address them here. Thanks. csloat (talk) 23:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Often a tactic that csloat used was diversionary arguments instead of addressing the actual issue, of which this is a fine example (and the subsection below, too). Since any content disputes that may have related to csloat's edits have been resolved, this is clearly about his disruptive editing behavior. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 02:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The content disputes have not been resolved; that was the point of the tag that you disruptively kept deleting, Amwestover. Again, I'm happy to discuss them, and we will no doubt continue discussing them on the talk page of the article, but the only relevant issue for AN/I is your disruptive behavior, as outlined below. csloat (talk) 02:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amwestover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've created a subsection here so that Amwestover's userlinks are easily accessible to admins. I am certain that if this incident is investigated it will be Amwestover, not csloat, who is found to have been editing disruptively. My actions have been focused entirely on trying to add factual material to the article. There is some dispute about whether the material belongs in the article -- I have tried to address those disputes civilly and have bent over backwards to compromise. But I feel it is disruptive for Amwestover to continually portray basic content disputes as "libel" issues or as "vandalism." It is also disruptive for him to lie in warnings to my talk page, to constantly insult me on the article talk page (the NPA violations flow in nearly every post he makes to me), and to waste everyone's time with an AN/I report that is obviously lacking in any basis whatsoever. csloat (talk) 23:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You guys seem to be arguing over a quote from Washington Post. That's a content dispute. I don't see what admins could do here (besides locking the page, which they've already done). Both of you need to follow WP:DR. Did anyone consider drafting a WP:RfC on this issue? Pcap ping 19:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The content dispute related to Islamic extremists supporting McCain on the internet was solved several weeks ago. All productive editors involved contributed to the consensus and the compromise which solved that content dispute. Speaking of which, csloat did not participate in the consensus or compromise which resolved this issue whatsoever, other than to voice his opposition to any suggestions which differed from his original edit. No, this report is about his disruptive editing habits on the article and talk pages, which goes beyond this particular issue. If you believe that more evidence is necessary, please let me know. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 21:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"libelous material only supported by biased media outlets" [1]. The outlet would be MSNBC. Yeah, I find the material very marginal, so I would argue it should be removed per WP:UNDUE, but you'll have a hard time getting someone blocked for this. Pcap ping 21:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, this report is about disruptive editing rather than content. Disruptive editing can involve the content of someone's edits, so I mentioned that where I felt appropriate. Since I organized the report around the content issues, I'll make an effort to reorganize the report around each aspect of his behavior that is disruptive in order to make a stronger case. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 22:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

csloat, you also need to be less aggressive in editing, and avoid edit warring over contentious material. I know it can take a long time to find consensus on politically charged articles, but insisting on every minor point will aggravate editors holding the opposite POV. If you guys cannot come to an agreement, try WP:3O first. This is all I'm going to say here; I put a {inuse} tag on an article, and I need to get back to it. Pcap ping 21:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind it taking a long time to reach consensus; my problem is with an editor falsely proclaiming consensus when there is none and then removing legitimate warning tags that are meant to help dispute resolution. I also get annoyed with an editor completely misrepresenting what is happening in the dispute when I have participated in good faith (and, contrary to his false statement above, I have attempted several compromises). I would be all for an RfC if that's what it takes to settle what should be extremely minor issues here. Anyway I hope this will encourage Amwestover to follow WP:DR rather than removing tags or filing phony AN/I reports. Have a good day. csloat (talk) 01:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I happened upon JARIAN (talk · contribs) via a report on AIV. This user was blocked for three days in February for disruption. He's returned twice since then--once in August and again in November. In that time he's created several articles that appear to be hoaxes (but to my mind, escape being G3'd by an eyelash) and inserted apparently false information into articles. He's also edit-warred by way of IP 97.89.6.61 (talk · contribs) and moved his talk page "because I am getting tired of complaints."

I decided he needed a month-long block to rethink his behavior--the only reason I didn't indef him was because, as mentioned above, those articles he created don't appear to be blatant hoaxes. Please review. Blueboy96 03:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've stretched the block out to indefinite, because he's been creating very subtle hoax articles, and linking to them from multiple articles. He's engaged in an active campaign to damage the encyclopedia by introducing non-obvious false content. We have no need of this nonsense. It's going to take me a while to go and undo his contributions.

If there are any Checkusers about, it might be a good idea to have a look for other accounts in the sock drawer. This is obviously an experienced editor. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:32, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arrgh...he's been tampering with MADtv season summaries to insert references to his imaginary actors. I've deleted the actors' articles, but the removal of the junk that he's added is slow going. He's edited both as JARIAN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and as the IP 97.89.6.61 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log).

Any article-space entries that come up in the "what links here" for Tisha Williams, Kevin Barrymore, Eddie Mitchell, Jeremy Wayne, Judith Foxworth need to be cleaned up. What a twit. (I've cleaned up links to the struckthrough articles already.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie Mitchell leads to a huge number of red-linked names at Home Improvement. They all look like nonsense since I can't seem to find them at IMDb (yes, I actually stopped once I saw Q2 listed there). Does this go any further? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, those were all added by JARIAN while logged out (diff), under his already-identified IP address. For now I'm going to say that I think we've got them all...but I've filed a Checkuser request to be sure: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/JARIAN. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fully endorse the ramping up to indef. A classic case of gaming the system, in my mind. Given TenofAllTrades' evidence, the results of that checkuser ought to me mighty interesting. Blueboy96 18:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And he was operating at least one sleeper account as well. Good grief. Blueboy96 19:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone take a look at the edit history of RichHandsmGuy (talk · contribs) - virtually all of his edits seems to be reverting to article versions (sometimes those versions are over a year old) of Rassmguy (talk · contribs). Sockpuppet? team editing? I'm going to take a look but some eyes would be helpful and maybe if it is disruptive - a block to prevent further damage. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK clearly disruptive - virtually all of his edits revert article back at least six months and in every case seriously degrade the quality of the articles by reverting clean-up work, removing sources etc. The guy is a menace. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both accounts indef. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great and as far as I can see the edits have been rolled back. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

huh? claims that it's a bot account. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may well be written to be somewhat automated. However, this particular task ("revert to the last version by me") would never be approved for a bot. In any case, an indef block seems reasonable for the time being. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This edit looks suspicious, too. Why would another unrelated user make that edit? -- The Anome (talk) 13:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now trying to get unblocked on the basis that it's a autoblock of a bot account. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rassmguy (talk · contribs) has posted two unblock requests at his talkpage - the first is on the basis of "I know nothing about this" - but what's odd is that he's posted a second on the basis that the first one was declined - but nobody has edited the page in-between his edits to decline the request? huh? --Cameron Scott (talk) 23:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Compromised by his 11 year old daughter who doesn't know any better." As compared with the average adult troll. That's an interesting twist on the "evil roommate" story. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Returned today as Handllrich (talk · contribs) reverting to 69.122.210.59 (talk). DoubleBlue (talk) 12:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Unblocked. Thatcher 16:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PaxEquilibrium (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was indefinitely blocked in July as a result of Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/PravdaRuss, which I was responsible for as checkuser. He has been in contact with me since, and claims innocence. There is undoubtedly a sockpuppet user who has been persistently reverting and harassing Rjecina (talk · contribs). This person edits from a particular residential ISP and a university in a certain city. While investigating Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/PravdaRuss I found that PaxEquilibrium edited from the same university. However, the university only has two outward-facing IP addresses that are massively shared, and PaxEquilibrium only had 3 total edits from there. In addition, he posts from a different residential ISP in that city, not the same one as the harasser. He claims he is the victim of a Joe job (See the accounts PaxPaxicus, PaxVendetimus and ToxToxicus, for example). On review I think there is at least room for doubt, and Pax has been calm and polite in pursuing his unblock request. He has appealed to Arbcom but has not received an answer either way, possibly they are preoccupied. I propose unblocking. He can be monitored if necessary. (And Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of PaxEquilibrium will have to be renamed to Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of PaxPaxicus or something.) Thatcher 13:16, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support an unblock. I always knew him as a decent contributor and was surprised when I heard he'd been indef'ed for sockpuppeting, something that just didn't seem like him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I support this unblock. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I echo Rlevse, should be fine to give the user a new chance in the spirit of good faith. --Kanonkas :  Talk  17:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For users which are not knowing this case I must say about my surprise with finding in Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/PravdaRuss, because I have never dreamed that Pax is behind this attacks. On other side this unblock demand for me is very funny and I am afraid that wiki community will became victim of this user joke.

We are having good faith but second time we are having claim that his account is victim of another user [2] !? For me is very hard to imagine that he is somebody victim because few of puppets in question are 2 years old accounts. Somebody has worked in silence 2 years only to block Pax (example 1 year old accounts User:Roramaster user:Roremaster). Has anybody noticed that after Pax blocking we are not having anymore problems with Belgrade IP ?

Second problem is that we are having 2 checkuser cases. First is PravdaRuss and second is behind accounts user:PPNjegos, user:NICrneGore, user:Anti-Note. He has been blocked because of puppetry in this second case (17 July) and banned because of PravdaRuss (30 July)

For me 3rd problems that for me it is not possible to agree with you Fut.Perf. that Pax is decent contributor. I will agree with you that he is decent in many articles but there is number in article where account Pax has been edit warring against all other users (articles Pagania, Podgorica Assembly and Creation of Yugoslavia).

Reason for creation of puppets: Pax style of work in articles which are very important in his thinking has been very simple: He will write POV versions with explanation that article is not finished and he will finish job in near future (Creation of Yugoslavia, Podgorica Assembly, Pagania). In my thinking Pax has started to create puppets after I have started to delete his POV versions [3] [4]. --Rjecina (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have not writen about 1 small thing. In discussion with you Thatcher Pax has not spoken truth... Claim that he has not edited from Belgrade University (or has edited small number of times) is false. We are having many older Pax statement that he is editing from university in question. When he has first time "lost" his account Pax words has been "The IP adress that I use (174...) is not only used by me but by the entire Internet Computer Center of the Electro-technic University as well" (user page of user:HRE). Now he is saying I am rarely using university IP ? Are we on wiki so naive that we will believe his today words and not his earlier words ??--Rjecina (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know what IPs he uses. The doubt arises because most of his recent edits (recent at the time of his last block) are from a particular residential ISP that is different from the residential ISP that is responsible for most of the harassment accounts. Clearly "PaxPaxicus" and PaxEquilibrium have access to the same University; that alone is not proof of anything as all edits to Wikipedia from that University come from two IPs. I feel that the use of different residential ISPs raises some doubt. It would be as if someone in New York City used both Time Warner Cable and Verizon DSL. It is not impossible, but it raises doubts. Thatcher 01:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Outdented) Like the others I support the unblock. Even if he was guilty before, giving him a chance to turn over a new leaf is always a good idea. And in this case, if there is any trouble Thatcher or another checkuser will know where to look.Bucketsofg 01:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the PravdaRuss checkuser case, Thatcher's comment and the evidence given above by Rjecina and it seems that the sock case is not at all persuasive. I support an unblock. If Pax resumes editing, it seems likely to heat up some of the Balkan debates but I see no policy ground to continue the block. Pax and Rjecina have conflicted on some articles like Creation of Yugoslavia and Podgorica Assembly, but Pax's total reverts appear to be few in number. If Thatcher talks to Pax any further, perhaps he could get him to list any alternate accounts he might have used in the past. EdJohnston (talk) 05:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly support this unblock and can only repeat what has been stated above. I've known Pax as a level-headed, polite editor for quite some time now and have a really hard time believing he should have been a sockpuppeteer. —Nightstallion 09:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a long, ongoing dispute regarding Dungeons & Dragons articles between User:Gavin.collins and the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject (prominent members who have been involved in the dispute recently include User:BOZ, User:Drilnoth, User:Shadzar, and User:Webwarlock) for approximately the past 14 months.

Problems: The issue started because of Gavin.collins's tagging. He often tags articles with templates such as {{notability}}, {{context}}, {{in-universe}}, {{plot}}, {{nofootnotes}}, {{Primarysources}}, {{Original research}}, and {{unreferenced}}, typically adding multiple tags at once. Examples include (although there are many more, as seen in his contributions): [5], [6]. Some members of the project have come to believe that he also does not read the articles he tags. For example, he made the following edits within a 1 minute period: [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16] Gavin has stated that he reads articles and then tags them all at once[17]. Some users have found this difficult to believe because he often applies almost identical tags to all articles (in the ten samples above, he added four tags to each, three of which were identical on all the articles) and because a quick look through his contributions shows that the tags are typically added at a fairly constant rate of one every few minutes any time that he is actively tagged, with only some larger clumps of successive edits like those listd).

Disagreements have revolved around which tags are appropriate, whether sources are reliable secondary sources, and whether uncited content is original research or simply unsourced. The primary focus of his edits over the span of the dispute seems to revolve around placing tags on D&D articles rather than attempting to help resolve the issues (with a secondary focus on discussion on Wikipedia policy and guideline talk pages relating to the same concerns he has on the articles he tags); as there are only a few active members of the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject, the sheer volume of this tagging places an excessive burden on these few editors.

At this point, unfortunately, the high volume of tagging for a small group of editors to handle is only part of the problem. Gavin seems to be quick to accuse others of vandalism[18], Conflict of Interest[19], and of "hiding something"[20], with little or no evidence. There have been large amounts of edit warring (visible on most D&D articles, including [21], [22]) and unproductive discussion, which oftentimes gets rather heated on both sides (evident by the following: [23], [24], and most of the archives at WT:D&D, most notably [25], [26], [27], and [28]). Attempts at reasonable discussion between Gavin and WikiProject members often result in no conclusion, compromise, or consensus, as Gavin seems to be resistant to any view but his own (example: [29]). He has also admitted that he knows little of RPGs, but that is probably due to the "poor quality" of the articles he's been looking at.[30] An attempt at mediation seemed to pause the conflict rather than end it.

He also rarely, if ever, answers direct questions that he can't answer by citing a Wikipedia policy or guideline.[31], [32].

Gavin's arguments have also spread beyond Dungeons & Dragons articles and to areas related to what he is arguing for, such as at WT:FICT (for examples, see the entire discussions that took place around the following edits: [33], [34], [35]) -Drilnoth (talk) 14:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Drilnoth, if two people have tried (and failed) to resolve this with him (which I suspect may be the case), then WP:RFC is the place to log a request for comment. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the only problem being that one has already been done. Granted, however, that discussion was before the RfM and his slight change of tactics. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this is the wrong place for this sort of thing, then we can basically copy the complaint into a new RFC/U. BOZ (talk) 01:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be noted that there have been many attempts at dispute resolution; most recently my own attempt at discussion here. But the members of the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject have exhausted nearly every step of dispute resolution, starting with talk page discussions,[36][37][38]. A third opinion was sought twice and giventwice. A request for comment was also opened, resulting in a 36-8 endorsement favoring the basis of the dispute. Lastly, a request for mediation was opened. We can open another RFC, but it has had little effect on his behavior, historically. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 01:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

About the only thing that seems to have changed as a result of the RFC/U was its main focus: deletion. He hasn't nominated an article in several months that I'm aware of; when at one point we were talking about a high volume of AFDs and PRODs, he hasn't seen fit to approach that avenue recently. However, as far as I can see, all of the other issues (presented as secondary) from the prior RFC/U remain. If we were to do another RFC/U, these issues would have to be presented as primary concerns, rather than secondary. I'd like to see what, if anything, can be resolved through this current avenue before bringing about another RFC/U. BOZ (talk) 01:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that another RFC, even with a different focus, would be the right course of action? With everything that's been tried (per COS), I personally don't think that an RFC would help very much at all. Based on the sheer amount of discussion done attempting to reach a consensus after the previous RFC that did practically nothing, I think that an ArbCom has to be the next step. Now believe me, I don't want to get involved in an ArbCom anymore than anyone else, but I think that this dispute needs to be resolved soon, and more discussion, RFCs, RFMs, 3rd opinions, etc., won't really help us get there.

Why do I think that it needs to be resolved soon? Well, Gavin hasn't really changed since he returned after the RFM, and things are getting worse. The discussion surrounding his edits have caused one user (User:Shadzar) to leave the WikiProject. The debates on particular articles has gotten longer and more heated by the day. Since he returned from the RFM, my experience on Wikipedia has gotten much worse, to the point where I'm not working on D&D articles as much due to the unpleasantness of working around him. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this AN/I resolves nothing, then an RFC/U is probably the right thing to do... but I have to share your pessimism about what it will achieve. If Gavin weren't so aggressive, I honestly couldn't be bothered with any of this. I agree that an ArbCom might be the only way to bring some sort of resolution, becuase you are right that no amount of discussion has dissuaded Gavin from his current course of action. I don't know what else to do and would appreciate some guidance. BOZ (talk) 03:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a new section at WT:D&D regarding a possible RFC/U because, although I don't really think that it will change much, it really is the correct next step, going to ArbCom only if and when the RFC fails. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• If any of you wish to discuss a particular article with me, I am open to discussion, which I feel is the most constructive process for both sides. However, using the Administrators' noticeboard to voice your dissatisfaction with me is I think a waste of admin time. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• We have, over and over again for 14+ months now. You have shown over and over again you have no interest in working with us unless we seek outside intervention. Frankly I am ready to leave en:Wikipedia all together unless something is done. Web Warlock (talk) 11:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• In answer to Web Warlock, Role playing games and Dungeons & Dragons Wikiprojects are not "editorial walled gardens", so your threats to leave because you disagree with the views of another contributor is misplaced. As regards working in collaboration with other editors, I think I have contributed to the substantial improvement of the article Kender, so I think your criticism is actually groundless. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• No one but you has ever said that. And unless you were dragged into it you have yet to contribute anything other than cutting and pasting tags on a subject you know nothing about. Web Warlock (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I do not consider the projects to be in an "editorial walled garden". If you read my original post here, you can see that the problem now more is the simple unpleasantness of working around you because of your accusals of COI, bad faith, vandalism, etc., than your position on the notability of topics. The articles need work to establish notability; but you are going about it the wrong way. Looking for sources to articles before just tagging them would be a good start. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Gavin, prior to today I have never heard ANY WikiProject referred to as a "walled garden", editorial or otherwise. Now unless you can give proof to your accusations, I suggest you tone down your rhetoric. -Jéské Couriano ^{(v^_^v)} 20:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The following is not an accusation, just a note. When I first started becoming aware of the situation, it came across to me (at first just a third party) that Mr. Collins was wikicrusading. After more looking into it, it seems more 50/50. Some of the articles he tags are legit, but when you're tagging at such a high volume then of course some have to be right. I think Dan Willis is an example of bad tagging. How many other articles on wikipedia are barely 3 paragraphs and require 12 sources? Mr. Collins has repeatedly denied the consensus, and even went as far as to describe the photograph as promotional. I just want an outcome where A)the articles are being improved (which is the whole purpose of the wikiproject), B)no one on either side is wikicrusading, and C)That all users, Mr. Collins included, don't come across to future newcomers (such as I was) as being acting in bad faith. Not saying he is, I don't now think he is, but as a newcomer it appeared so. Hooper (talk) 17:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your position completely. I just started edit a little over a month ago, before Gavin.collins returned after the RFM ended, and when he started his tagging again and I found out about all of the older RFCs, RFMs, and extensive arguements over articles for no apparent reason, I assumed bad faith. Now, though, I think he's really trying to help -really trying- but just doesn't really know a better way to help out. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe he's acting in bad faith. However, his good-faith contributions are starting to cross the line into disruptive, and his general unresponsiveness to criticism isn't helping to defuse the situation. -Jéské Couriano ^{(v^_^v)} 20:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well put, Jeske. I couldn't have said that better myself. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I believe that he believes that he is acting in good faith, and that those who disagree with him are acting in bad faith, which explains most of his reactions towards us. BOZ (talk) 16:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't look to be going anywhere fast, probably because (despite advice to the contrary) the complaint goes beyond "things which require administrative intervention" and into "laundry lists of complaints about an editor" territory. I'd recommend another RfC. I would also strongly recommend dropping all the general complaints about said editor's attitude towards our notability guidelines (which really, really aren't going to be resolved with an RfC) and the canvassing of fiction-friendly members of WP:DND to that effect. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. I want to give this another day or two, and see what Gavin does during that time, before starting an RFC. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• If you had a serious complaint about me, I would have thought you would have started an RFC long ago; wanting to "give this another day or two" seems to me that your complaints may be trivial, and that you do fishing for reasons to find fault with me rather than discuss the issues about individual or groups of articles. I have a different opinion from yours about how D&D articles need to be cleaned up, it does not follow that I don't "really know a better way to help out" at all. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• We do have a serious complaint, not about your tagging now as much as your other disruptive edits and argumentative tone. We haven't jumped into an RFC or ArbCom because that isn't a step to be taken lightly; we'd rather try to resolve the dispute outside of such a situation. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly, posting sarcastic "quotes of the week" on public policy talk pages about people disagreeing with you isn't going to endear you to anyone, and it doesn't speak to wanting to work better with others. BOZ (talk) 16:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nishidani (talk · contribs) was recently warned by an administrator about personal attacks aimed at User:Jaakobou. After he complained about the warning, three additional uninvolved editors, including 2 administrators, stepped in, and voiced concern over Nishandi's behavior in this matter. ([39], [40],[41], [42]). Apparently displeased with this outcome, Nishandi has taken to using his personal space to write a critique of his critics, in what appears to be an attack page. Though presented in the form of a "ballad", his critique nevertheless continues to accuse User:Jaakobou of off-wiki canvassing, gaming the system and administrator shopping. I believe this is inappropriate use of user space, and have asked Nishandi to remove it but he's refused. NoCal100 (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now that has left me slack-jawed. It might be grossly inappropriate etc etc etc but this has got to be the most impressive attack page I ever saw. Truly speechless. – iridescent 18:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who ever saw a ballad made up of sonnets? The guy ought to be trout-slapped for playing fast and loose with our literary genres, surely. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Especially as his iambic pentameter is all over the place. I mean, honestly. Black Kite 18:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• NoCal100, what is the interest of scrutinizing Nishidani's userspace that closely? You should see some of the crap I have in mine. Nishidani's "attack" is part of an archived usertalk page! If it had been a separate page called User:Nishidani/Ballad about bad people you might have had a point; but hidden away in an archive? Who would even have seen it, to be offended by it, if you hadn't brought it to this noticeboard? I'm not saying people can have whatever they want in their userspace, there certainly are limits; but please try to cultivate a higher degree of tolerance for things like a sarcastic sonnet cycle in a discreet corner. It seems Nishidani feels stalked by you.[43], [44] Please walk away. (Incidentally, have you told him you've put the issue on ANI, as courtesy requires?) Bishonen | talk 20:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC).[reply]

The interest is in keeping Wikipedia a place where editing is done in a collegial manner, vs. one where an editor may abuse user space to baselessly attack another editor, after being warned by 3 administrators about just such behaviour. I would have thought it obvious. NoCal100 (talk) 21:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Somebody once said insults in rhyming couplet should be cherished forever. I agree, you should at least try to cultivate a sense of humor. — CharlotteWebb 20:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• User:Geogre said that. Bishonen | talk 22:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Just so that I'm clear on this - it is ok to accuse another editor, without evidence, of off-wiki canvassing and forum shopping, so long as it is done with rhymes? NoCal100 (talk) 21:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read Bish's reply. If having potentially abusive messages in your talk archive were a blocking offence, pretty much every user on this site would be blocked. If it weren't for your coming here, no-one would even have read it. – iridescent 21:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've got to agree- frankly, I'd be proud to know someone had gone through the trouble to write a ballad to complain about me. Walk it off. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• It looks like you still haven't informed Nishidani, NoCal100. Never mind, I've done it for you. Bishonen | talk 22:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Wow - I wonder how many hours it took him to write that fine piece of attack literature. It ought to be preserved if only for the sake of art. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I wished to stay neutral in this, but it appears that there is a gross misconception here which should be cleared up—this "ballad" is indeed archived, but it's from yesterday, so it's kind of fresh. I think Nishidani should just strike it out and the case should be closed. But somehow I have a feeling that this is now what will happen (*sigh*). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure it's fresh. If it had been a month old, NoCal100 would presumably have taken it to ANI a month ago. Did anybody here suggest it wasn't fresh? It's still in a discreet corner of the userspace, that's the point. Bishonen | talk 23:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC).[reply]

So, It is ok to have an attack page, as long as it is under an Archivenn page in user space? NoCal100 (talk) 00:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I hope to someday piss off another editor to the point that they spend that amoung of time writing poetic odes to my rottenness. Awesome.GJC 23:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

✓ Done

I have to say, it seems a shame

That every misguided new-article creator

When warned for incorrect capitalization of proper names

Will cite Gladys j cortez, Wikipedia administrator – iridescent 00:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than editors commenting about how they, personally, would be honored by such a tribute, I would like an administrator to answer my question, while specifically addressing WP:UP#NOT #9 and #10. Those guidleines seem fairly clear, and have no exceptions for rhyming content, or content filed under an Archivenn page, as far as I can see. NoCal100 (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All right then, I'll bite.

• Have any of the editors being "attacked" complained about this?
• Has anyone other than yourself shown any sign of being upset by this?
• If it weren't for you reading the last post in a talk archive would anyone even know about this?
• Has a single person among all the people posting above, other than yourself, got any problem with this?
• Is this really the most incivil thing you've ever seen in userspace?
• Do you really think continuing to waste the time of the multiple administrators who don't see a problem here by continuing to flog what is obviously a dead horse is starting to cross the line from "raising a legitimate concern" to "refusing to take no for an answer"?

Seriously, let it go. – iridescent 00:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please reread what I wrote, I would like an answer that specifically addresses WP:UP#NOT #9 and #10, which is a wikipedia content guideline. Whether or not this is the worst example of attack pages is irrelevant, and to answer your other rather pointless question, yes,Ynhockey has indicated that he thinks the offending remarks should be stricken. I am trying to get a straight answer to a content question - is it appropriate to have attack pages in user space, if they are in filed under an Archive? NoCal100 (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section of the userpage guideline WP:UP#NOT is titled "What may I not have on my user page?" (emphasis mine). An archived talk page is not the user's userpage. —Travis^talk 00:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, even if you do want to argue that WP:UP applies to user talk archives, see at the top of WP:UP where it says "guideline, not policy"? See where it says "with the occasional exception"? Aside from yourself, every single person here has agreed that this is one of those occasional exceptions. If this is so offensive to those editors he has named, I'd like to think they're perfectly capable of complaining about it themselves. Incidentally, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't even a guideline, but a personal essay by (now indefblocked, incidentally) User:VigilancePrime representing his own personal opinions. – iridescent 00:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are factually incorrect - I have already pointed out another editor who thinks the comments should be stricken. Be that as it may, I have taken this to Wikipedia talk:User page, to see if indeed, as you seem to think, WP:UP does not apply to archived pages. NoCal100 (talk) 00:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Take a look at the very first line of WP:ATTACK. It matters not whether anyone complains; they may not have seen it. It still creates a poisonous atmosphere wehich I suggest we could well do without. Throwing one's toys out of the pram is bad enough, but doing it loudly should not be tolerated. --Rodhullandemu 00:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I boringly agree with Rod, resist.
Destroy my wikienemies in rhyme?
Those whose offences make me wish to mock
Or to create exposes of their sins
I leave them to the fates they weave themselves
The bored frustration bringing Wiki sin
Appalling poetry a case in point
To every man comes, like the need for pie.

(i.e WP:NPA policy exists.) Sticky Parkin 01:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While speech is somewhat free, it seems,
That does not liberate thy dreams
of insults and of criticisms
couched in whatever witticisms.

Here we live with one and another,
fighting vandals as did "your mother",
and although it may seem prosaic
we are still parts of one mosaic.

Cooperation is our avowéd aim,
but dissent isn't quite the same;
Whether you're interesting, or bland,
you must fit in, or be banned.
--Rodhullandemu 01:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's times like this that make me wish BJAODN was still around. :P bibliomaniac15 01:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"An attack is an attack is an attack is an attack." -- Gert Rude Stein. (E.g. what purpose does the page serve?) IronDuke 03:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although not necessarily the correct response, Nocal100 could have rejoined Nishidani's well-written poem with one of his own, filled with aesthetically pleasing but devastating, asteistic retorts to Nishidani's points, and then immediately archived it as well. If only more editor conflicts would evolve in such a manner. Cla68 (talk) 06:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Inquiring minds would like to know: How did you find this? By tracking Nishidani (talk · contribs)'s every move trying to catch him "out"? Or by meandering over to Wikipedia Review, spotting the topic, and then attacking? Either option doesn't make you look good :) Its discreet, its well written, QQ :) Jacina (talk) 09:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read WP:AGF lately? The incident which is at the root of this whole thing was discussed on AN/I some weeks ago, with my participation and Nishandi's, and was not resolved to my satisfaction. I came to comment on it on Nishandi's Talk page a couple of weeks ago, and found it conspicuously empty, and noticed he had taken to immediately "archiving" every comment made there. Just so that I'm clear- your are of the opinion that attack pages are ok, so long as they are "well written", and placed in archived pages? And as you ponder that, those same inquiring minds would like to know how you know that this topic is being discussed on Wikipedia Review. NoCal100 (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All I know is, the amount of times I go hunting through archives is practically nil, barring the archives of this page ;)So what I see happening is 1. Nish makes the post, 2. WITHIN 24 hours its on ANI? By someone with an axe to grind... well well well... But ok AGF you're doing this for the good of the wiki yeah, well I'm the man on the moon then. I don't see how its "for the good of the wiki" to push into public eyes something that someone may have found in two years time if someone hadn't been tracing Nish's moves closely. I also don't see how its "for the good of the wiki" to cry wolf, when obviously someone is ranting, and doing so without trying to cause drama. Jacina (talk) 08:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There once was a page on the Wiki
Whose location was a point very sticky
It was parked in the 'chives
Yet affecting the lives
Of editors both mad and not-picky

So the issue came down to one point
Does the archive allow one to annoint
One's writings 'gainst others
(including some mothers)
Or should they be purged from the joint.
►BMW◄ 12:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the fair damsel in distress,
Who Nishidani meant to protect,
I plead for the masses
To not bray like asses
Calling for his head

To prosecute a knight
for his fingers flight
over the keyboard at night
just does not seem right
particularly when his rhyme is much better than mine, or yours.Tiamut^talk 13:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While attacks shouldn't be condoned, I think Nish did go out of his way to make it discreet. A block isn't necessary I don't feel, just remind him to strike it out and remind him that though he took care to make it as pleasant and unobstrusive as possible, perhaps the same level of thought could be better put into moving forward. Certainly just because one attacks in a clever fashion it should no be totally ignored. --Narson ~ Talk • 14:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who is asking for a block? All I want is the offending attacks struck out, or a clarification from the community that attack pages are ok if placed in archived pages. NoCal100 (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In other words: let them remove any actual names (or shortforms/semblances thereof) and any Wikilinks to any actual editors, and the poem is fine - venting in its own way. If not, someone remove the entire page for them. ►BMW◄ 17:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I may lack the Wisdom of Solomon (I can't figure out why he had 700 wives and 300 concubines - why not one wife and 999 concubines or 999 wives and one concubine?) but I believe that I have provided a wise solution to this problem. [45] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.182.2.26 (talk)

Yes, but it appears to have been reverted, as outsider edits to other users' talk page archives are likely frowned upon. Seems like much ado about thing, really; a creative venting of frustrations shouldn't be met with a reactionary "OMG NPA NPA!". If people around the project were a bit more relaxed and developed at least a slightly thicker skin, we'd probably have more time to, y'know, edit, with less time spent on...this. Tarc (talk) 19:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever happened to WP:AGF No Cal ton? I see you have tucked away, a nice little user page of your own 86.128.120.234 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AGF rears its ugly head again. Account User:NoCal100 seems to have been created for the purpose of... well, not stalking obviously, but reverting the edits of User:Calton (note that ton is slang for 100). NoCal100's response to questions about that has varied from "AGF" to "go away". SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 22:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. More than a week ago, several different polls were opened on Ireland (disambiguation), Ireland and Republic of Ireland, and another at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force. A veritable mess. The issue is a recurring one. Proponents wanted Republic of Ireland to be at Ireland (state) or a variation . Some of the proponents exhibit an Irish republican POV, which holds that Ireland being qualified by "Republic of" undermines its credibility as the only legitimate government in Ireland. Though support for the move was broader than this, it could therefore be taken into the orbit of Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles.
2. Today, these polls were closed by Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [congratulations for his bravery!] .
3. Later today, Srnec (talk · contribs) reverted the move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) (Ireland (island), which was salted by the new dab page Ireland )
4. Even later today, Matt Lewis (talk · contribs) copy-pasted Republic of Ireland into Ireland (state) (a redirect at that occasion), and vice-versa [46][47]
5. Polaron (talk · contribs) reverted the copy and paste move[48]

This could well be a big drama fest, but no heads have to roll just yet and no passions need be inflamed. To put it mildly, it is probably unlikely that review of this move close will lead to agreement that the moves had consensus, but in fairness the poll at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force is more strongly in favour of the move than the article pages. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is currently working on this. Please lets wait for him to comment before adding yet more voices to the cacophony. Rockpocket 20:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that there's a separate thread open at AN. This needs exactly one cook to prevent broth spoilage. Oh, and "could well be a big drama fest" passed a long time ago. Essentially anything related to the word "Ireland" needs to be handled with care. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone want to be the brave person to decide whether AN or ANI is the right place for this and so unify discussion? --Narson ~ Talk • 20:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done it already. AN/I is really the appropriate place anyway. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My response is User talk:Tariqabjotu#My response. No further comment at this point. -- tariqabjotu 20:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unable to comment at User talk:Tariqabjotu#My response as the page is locked for IP's, but it strikes me that Tariqabjotu decision to keep his move is based on his opinion on the matter rather than consensus or the mountains of discussion that has taken place on the matter (much of which cited alternative reasons based on policy for keeping things as they were). --89.101.221.42 (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will also add that it has a ring of making a faulty decision in good faith then justifying it retrospectively. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's based on the consensus that you all clearly can't decide. Hence, disambiguation. -- tariqabjotu 21:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was no consensus to move Ireland -> Ireland (island), so you moved Ireland -> Ireland (island)? You are clearly operating on a wholly different level, Tariqabjotu. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say I'm very impressed with admin revert warring each other over a page move and then using protection powers to make their version stick. Whatever happened to Bold Revert Discuss? The admin closed and was bold in applying local consensus elsewhere onto a page, and was reverted. Shouldn't he then have engaged in discussion at the local where the dispute was? --Narson ~ Talk • 20:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC) (edit conflict)[reply]

Administrator Tariqabjotu's conduct is in good faith. He's done no wrong. GoodDay (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and when I say "then justifying it retrospectively" - I mean only that that kind of decision-making is fault prone. I don't meant any implication of bad faith on the part of Tariqabjotu, just one mistaken decision followed by a fault-prone one. Wheel warring is not pretty though. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And in good faith I criticise the process he decided to use. I think applying local consensus to other locals is most definatly wrong GD. Even RM points you towards the talk page of an article for moves rather than gaining the consensus on the RM page. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC) (ec)[reply]

My move wasn't part of the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle. It was based on an analysis of a move request discussion. Even with the evidence I missed initially, I am staying with my position, for reasons I explained in my response. The editor reverted the result of a move discussion – that's out of process. If (s)he disagrees with the discussion, this type of forum is the appropriate place to go. -- tariqabjotu 21:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still looking for that move discussion at Talk:Ireland (state)... Srnec (talk) 21:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was discussed as recently as September. The decision was to NOT MOVE the page. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was no move discussion as I would view it, there was a small clique discussing this in a remote location. Can WP:F1 now conduct move requests on its talk page? Certainly consensus can be developed on those pages, but it must always go back to the talk page of the article in question to achieve consensus among all editors. By taking this behind doors, so to speak, we disenfranchise casual editors and IP editors who are unlikely to delve that many layers beyond the article talk page. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is a clique like a cabal, but with disparate people in it? I would be happy with that. It has taken a stern will to battle at times. I set up the WP:IDTF taskforce on Ireland (being WP:bold), and boy the diffs I could show of the same-face aggressive opposition to it! But sense survived the AfD, and sense will service this. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and you simply cannot stop progress forever. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no desire to stop progress, Matt. However, I do not view the method you used to be progress. I know it was an attempt to avoid the fight that have dogged the pages for years, but I don't think that small groups deciding consensus away from the pages is the answer. Especially when such a well thought out solution had been reached. You skipped a step that validates the decision you reached. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tariqabjotu, would you be willing to expand a little on what you meant when you wrote, "Now, I'm done... you are welcome to open a WP:AN or WP:ANI post, but I'm sticking with this position regardless." Do you think that such a statement could be interpreted as meaning that you are unwilling to discuss mistakes you may have made in haste? Do you think that this is a constructive statement to make on an issue that you know to be contentious? --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Do you think that such a statement could be interpreted as meaning that you are unwilling to discuss mistakes you may have made in haste?" Yes, it might be interpreted as that. Either way, in my response, I addressed the mistake many people pointed out. I explained why I think, despite that, this is still the best solution. You all are trying to drag me into this debate; I'm not falling for it. This is your debate; I am just here to look at the evidence and decide whether a move is warranted. I did that, so my job is done. You are free to launch an appeal. You are free to continue to bicker about this -- but without me. I have stated my position -- and that's it. Me repeating my reasoning interminably is unproductive. You repeating yours interminably is unproductive.

"Do you think that this is a constructive statement to make on an issue that you know to be contentious?" Yes. -- tariqabjotu 21:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You say this is "our debate" and that we are trying to "drag you into it" but that you won't "fall for it" - yet your final decision was based on your opinion, not ours. Can you reconcile this contradiction?

(Incidentally, while not asking you for your opinion on it or on the issue itself, here was my contribution to this round of polling on the requested move, simply as an FYI. I think that there is more to policy on articles moves to consider than you give credit for in your response. Many of these were discussed in the pages and archives that you ignored.) --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to acknowledge there are differing cases for each of the moves on your talk page. I'd suggest the solution is, at the very least, reverting Ireland (State) to Republic of Ireland and engaging for a local discussion on that page. Though as some people suggest this likely needs mediation or arbitration, I do think out of process move procedures do need to be reversed before such things can occur so as not to present a fait accompli. Though, I do hope that if a move procedure is begun on the talk page that a convincing consensus is reached. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a noninvolved party, I applaud Tariqabjotu for taking on an contentious issue and making a decision. No matter the decision, someone was going to be unhappy. Moving to a disambiguation, given the confusion that clearly exists, was only proper (if in doubt, disambiguate). Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That was only half the move though. As Tariq himself says, there was no need to disambiguate RoI. There are also the issues to do with the process which wa pretty obviously a bit unorthodox. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

⬅ Appeal it and let it go to Arbcom, its bound to end up there anyway and the two factions will never reach agreement. It needs some objectivity. --Snowded TALK 22:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or someone could file a RM on the RoI page and present a good argument, as been done elsewhere, and so acctually try to build consensus? It may end up at ArbCom if people continue to believe this assbackwards method of remote page moves is acctually valid, but lets give it a chance to acctually do it properly. Revert the move, put up a RM. --Narson ~ Talk • 10:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the state is Ireland, and I wanted primary use for the Ireland article to go to the sovereign state of Ireland, but unfortunately that did not happen. I strongly disagree with Narson. PurpleA (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Over what? You think this was a totally proper way to perform a move? --Narson ~ Talk • 12:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An RfC on the recent multi-page move has been opened at Talk:Ireland#RfC: controversial multi-page move. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 12:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compliments to Tariq for trying to sort this out. His solution must be the right one, becuase neither side is happy about it. IT looks like the best solution to me, removing either 'right' answer with one that gives access to the new reader to choose which 'Ireland' they are asking about. For the record, the 89.101 IP which is so abusive to Tariq (Above asking if he's stopped beating his wife yet) is from Ireland, and thus an obvious and plain POV pusher. ThuranX (talk) 12:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I cannot help replying to your remarks above. Many of the editors involved in this dispute are actually British, some like yourself are from Scotland. It would not be very civil of me to say that because you're from Scotland you are a POV-pusher. I think you should withdraw your last remarks. PurpleA (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) "For the record, the 89.101 IP ... is from Ireland, and thus an obvious and plain POV pusher." Thus? Gosh. Racism. Nice. At least you're good enough to put it on the record. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 12:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, let's try this: The IP who refuses to register is from Ireland, which explains why he's such a loud POV Pusher. How's that? I haven't associated you with one view or another, and your own agitation makes it plain you're pushing a POV. As for the Brits and Scots involved, they're all POV pushers as well, here for nationalistic, jingoistic reasons, and not arguing on logical principles, but for political and emotional ones, as are the Irish POV pushers. I further note that neither of you addressed the substance of my post, which is that since no one's happy, he did the right thing. I'll assume that's because you know I'm right. I'm also interested in why the IP wont' register. Sock? Banned User? Someone with a Real Life conflict of interests here? ThuranX (talk) 21:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So basically we're all POV pushers. Looks like AGF went out the window. --Cameron* 21:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I must say I am very disappointed by these moves, especially as it was retrospectively justified. I saw quite a discussion going on on the what is now Ireland (island) article that was well and truly ignored. In my eyes, this was not a case of being bold, but rather an abuse of administrative powers, in an attempt to get this thing over with. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 13:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The articles have been moved and protected despite consensus tending toward keeping the status quo. Bearing this in mind, we now need neutral admins to help us move forward. We are at your mercy! :) Please help! --Cameron* 15:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With every respect to the admin involved, and remaining concious that I do not want to stray from "comment on actions, not editor", I am also more than a little dismayed by the manner in which this change occurred. Per Cameron and TheChrisD, it looks to me like the admin (in good faith) only wandered in to one part of a complex discussion, failed to notice that the issue was WAY more complex than the simple "straw poll" he happened to read, and took premature action as a result. Per TheChrisD, these actions were then retro-actively justified. It seems to me that, in the course of making these changes:

• Due consideration was not given to the points raised in other areas of the discussion page (namely that the task force remit was to confirm a set of guidelines around "how to refer to the 2 Irelands within articles". And was NOT just about article names. As such, a move in the absence of a guideline change was premature)
• Not enough time was taken to familiarise himself/herself with the issues involved before acting (Admin appears to have arrived on the taskforce project page - after several weeks of absence from the project - took a look at just ONE discussion (in a page with 5 or more open discussions), and acting based on inferred "consensus". Where no consensus existed.)
• Not enough notice was given to the parties involved in the task force before making the changes. (In fact, I can see no notice of intent of any kind. The least I would have expected was a one liner that said: "OK, looks like CON to me, here's what I'm going to do...")

Beyond the issues involved in the manner in which the move itself occured, I have serious reservations about the result. The new naming scheme addresses one of the issues raised by the taskforce, but does not represent a complete solution in terms of COMMONNAME (parens suffix have no standing in common use), DAB (Ireland (state) is not a clear label), ease of use (every single derived link will need a pipe), etc. At the VERY least, the "Ireland (state)" article should be moved back to "Republic of Ireland". Until a more complete set of guidelines can be agreed around when/where/how to use and link. Guliolopez (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Cannot agree to that alone. All articles must be moved back to what was the status quo only two days ago. My contention is that "Ireland" was a primary article. Only an article in that format could give the 9,000 years of history in Ireland, and it was universally accepted, contrary to what some editors have said, by almost all. Please return all the articles to what they were two days ago. Thank you. PurpleA (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We cannot return all the articles because per WP:COMMONNAME "Ireland" must be a dab page, as for example "America" is. The closing Admin made what is a vital first step in making Ireland-related articles adhere to normal Wiki policies and conventions. The most damning example of the mess current and past editors have made in this area is that they have achieved a situation where the province of Northern Ireland is defined as a country on Wiki while the most common meaning of the word "Ireland" in modern usage, the country with the capital city Dublin, cannot be described as a country in its title article. This was an excellent, courageous and long-overdue application of WP:NPOV in this area. Sarah777 (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

btw, by my count this is now the tenth forum actively discussing this issue. It seems that the first thing anyone who thinks that there is forum-shopping going on does is to start the argument in a new place. Sarah777 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This 'multiple conversations in multiple locations' behavior is a serious problem. Centralized discussions help, fractured ones do not. By maintaining multiple conversations, the combatants in this, and other disagreements, effectively insulate themselves from outside adjudications. These conversations often start as Forks or forum shopping by a side which is currently losing. Because each side in turn loses ground, each side starts up the argument anew in new places, seeking more consensus for their side. They then justify their decision and consensus in whatever way they can - 'More people weighed in here, thus a bigger consensus', 'This group is specialized in this area and know it better than you', 'This was actually the right place to do this', 'this editor/admin has more authority to decide this', and so on. Each justification 'trumps' the other side in the combatants' minds. When an admin steps in they can point to the other discussions and say, you need to read this one, or that one, or many others, intimidating admins into not messing with it, or into reversing decisions. Each side can suddenly point to the other side for this effect as well: "You ignored these arguments we used on their fork to counter this idea or that one of yours..." and so it goes.

We had an admin come in on a large one of these fractured parts, evaluate it, and BOLDly solve it. He sliced the Gordian knot, halved the baby, and so on. Now the sword he swung is being hoist high over his head. The simple fact is that years of dancing and dodging on this are over, and both sides are angry they didn't get their way, and that the fight is over. These are two separate issues, and both need to be mentioned here. One, Neither side got its way. The article Ireland is now a disambig, not about the Island nor the Political entity, and both sides are incensed that their article didn't get the coveted place. Second,both sides see this argument as an extension of their political leanings, and to have this forum for their grievances removed feels like a personal insult to them. This, they need to man up, hold their sack, and get over (Women too). Tariqabjuto did something truly impressive here, and the community and admins should be backing him. Again I appluad his work here ,and hope for more of the same. ThuranX (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree 100%. My original position here was that Ireland meant, first and foremost, my country (aka RoI). After years of futile polls and argument I came to appreciate that there must be a compromise position. While I would still maintain the the average reader means the the sovereign country of Ireland when they search or use the term "Ireland" I have nonetheless come to realise that there will never be consensus around that solution:

• (1) Because Unionists in NI and people in Britain feel that calling the State simply "Ireland" implies that NI isn't on the island of Ireland in some sense or that it represents a nationalist claim on NI
• (2) Because nationalist Irish editors feel that applying the term to the 26 county sovereign state excludes nationalists from six counties from being as "Irish" as someone from Kerry and/or that it surrenders the idea of a politically United Ireland.

The victim in all of this is (a) WP:COMMONNAME, because "Ireland" is the near universally used and recognised term for the Southern state and (b) WP:NPOV because this fact is ignored or set aside for purely political reasons. (And also, some editors who have fought this move for 8 years have a vast amount of personal emotion wrapped up in maintaining the POV versions of the articles).

In the light of all this Ireland as a dab is, frankly, the only solution, though it is painful to both sides as the various arguments show. After this, much follow-up work is required, with doubtless much more debate. But, for now, the boil has finally been lanced; a prerequisite for healing to start. Sarah777 (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since when did we get invaded by stereotypes? Could it not be that you oppose use of RoI because...you are Sarah and you, as an individual, chose to oppose it having made a decision based on your view of policy and guidelines? There are plenty of Brits on what is supposed to be the 'nationalist' side and Irish on the 'Unionist' side that perhaps we might have to accept we arn't dealing with stereotypes but fellow editors who are perfectly capable of coming to a rationale opinion based on policy and that we don't need admin to cut the 'Gordian knot' of consensus. I admire the taskforce for what they were doing, I just regret they let their patience fail at the last moment in welcoming this fait accompli --Narson ~ Talk • 22:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wish you were part of the taskforce Narson- I've never seen you comment so much since over the last day! I do thing you are making too big a drama out of this, when so seldom dipping into it before. the admin merely made a per-policy decision anyone could have done - and nobody was 'robbed' of an ROI poll. Many 'opposers' to change were admitting that keeping the name 'Republic of Ireland' wasn't really the central issue - and we were all focusing on Ireland, where the real problem was. I know you've had half an eye on things - but I wonder if you know how much has been covered? I'm happy with what I see as a natural progression here, even if it wasn't the route I expected. The "Mixed Ireland" status-quo bunch have had their chance to progress their own often-hidden preferences (and some of them did have them), and believe me, they stonewalled and they block-voted to breaking point. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should I retort that you arn't making a big enough drama out of it? :) TBH last I saw of the taskforce it had stagnated. The RoI/Ireland (State) page remained on my watchlist from...god knows when I last contributed there. I am amazed at what you guys managed to achieve and hell, as I've said, the /result/ is likely what I would want. However the process? Meh. This was a cock up. and I realise it is no-one fault really. A mistake was made. However, the actions after that mistake are just trying to perpetuate the cock up. There needs to be a solution that is /just/. For something to be just, process must be followed. Then the issue can be buried. Until then, you just leave an open wound, for lack of a better term. I truly admire what you have achieved in forging a compromise with Sarah and how much she has worked to compromise with you. It is just in the haste to act a lot of the good in that process was negated. --Narson ~ Talk • 23:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two big points:

1. There was no need to change the status quo. The Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland/Ireland compromise matched our other treatments of geographic areas with multiple governments (i.e., People's Republic of China/Republic of China/China/Taiwan). You're never going to make everybody happy with stuff like this, but it was a stable and accepted solution by the vast majority of the community.
2. The debate took place in a small corner of the projectspace, with little input from the community at large. This may perhaps be the most obscure corner of the encyclopedia to hold a discussion on a move as major as this. Re-arranging our Ireland article names forces the renaming of the entire categorization structure (a long and tedious process in and of itself) and the renaming of hundreds of subsidiary articles, as well as dozens of templates related to European and European Union topics. This is a huge huge debate. Rather than being held in the article talkpage (where it had been shot down back in September), it was shuffled off to a distant hidden corner of the WikiProject Ireland project space. When the discussion took place there, it became a hivemind scenario. While I have no doubt as to the good faith of many of the editors, Tariqabjotu included, this is unreasonable and unfair to the community. While I certainly sympathize with the need to provide for an orderly debate, this was a bit overboard and ultimately (and unintentionally) disenfranchising.

Therefore I urge the reversal of the moves and the opening of a new straw poll, advertised throughout the community noticeboards, in which this debate can be carried out fairly and equitably.--Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On point two sir, I doff my cap. You put my point eloquently. It is the process that appears to have gone awry here, despite I am sure good intentions. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For an American administrator to write all that, clearly without researching anything!! I don't like the emotive language, and talk of "hivemind" either. I have not been part on an 'obscure corner' of anything thank you very much. Read WP:IDTF and do not risk offending decent people who have given their spare time to work for a better encyclopedia. I've spoken to several admin now who have voiced regret with the status who (from top dogs to lesser known ones), but who have said it is too difficult/dramatic/unapealling/etc/etc for them to try themselves to change so is best kept/worked on if possible. The 2-state forking issue simply grew out of hand in the end. I'm not having all the hard work, the article locks, endless debate and dramas etc 'glossed over' by an ingnorant bold-text intrusion like this. Really - I mean it. People have done nothing but work - and people on all sides accepted there should be some kind of change in the end. Thousands of messed-up meanings of Ireland in articles have now been put right. Ireland was never my own argument originally, but it stopped me from editing Wikpedia, and I am kind enough to do as much of the tidying-up work as I can. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is starting to get a bit own-ish Matt. --Narson ~ Talk • 23:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be so pedantic - I'm simply speaking my mind. We all share Wikipedia. --Matt Lewis (talk) 04:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We do all share one which is why the impression you are giving of ownership seems so bizzare. And certainly edits like this don't make it very easy to work with you. --Narson ~ Talk • 15:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote it neither as an American nor as an administrator. I have nothing but good faith that you've been working hard towards solving this dispute, I merely take issue with the manner in which you carried it out. This discussion has widespread effects and implications and should not be left to a workgroup to hammer out in isolation. If you are confident that your conclusions as to what should happen with the Ireland articles are valid, then they should be subjected to the community as a whole for approval. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's a bit better after reading that, but I think the community thing can be a bit of an ideal, or even a myth. The RM at Ireland advertised on the main Countries wikiproject, and all the country articles and wikiprojects involved, including the UK article and project. The admin who polled it went to an admin page requesting neutral help before-hand - none came (people run a mile, we've tried before). What do you suggest? I personally suggested Arbcom to look over it, but it didn't happen - as people were just tired of the debates and the stonewalling, and it could have meant a labourious and tedious re-start - so the taksforce broke its 'bond' under the stress, and a 'half approach' RM was placed at Ireland instead. This (island/state) approach Tariqabjatu has moved on was recently straw-polled at the well-advertised WP:IDTF taskforce to a broadly 50/50 result (it possibly had the edge, and at least one who would have gone for it held their vote). Yes it would have been great to get an even wider audience than the few new people that poll pulled in - but this is Wikipedia, and sometimes it's a smaller room than people admit.--Matt Lewis (talk) 04:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to point one by Hemlock Martinis: Clearly there was a need, as evidenced by the ridiculous amount of discussion on this matter. If that's not call for a serious action on this matter, then there will never be, and we are condemned to a permanent war here about which Ireland we can call Ireland. Irony. Instead, we can all accept that no side won this war, and move on. Irony again. ThuranX (talk) 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Every step is a step towards stability.. I really believe that, and it;s kept me sane too. --Matt Lewis (talk) 04:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, to rephrase that, a small group of editors who are willing to keep complaining and never shut up will always get their way? Even when it results in the absurdities I point out below? I don't think that's how we do things. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a small number. It's an ongoing problem. Consensus can be revisited. Edit warring is bad. And on and on and on. There are plenty of good reasons to change to what we have now, and plenty of problems, fights, arguments and attacks on what we had. I don't understand why peace is so hard for Ireland. In all forms. ThuranX (talk) 03:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should get your facts right Hemlock. It was not shuffled off to an obscure place, the discussion was notified. The discussion has gone on from a long time and the subject had been new, then on several occasions Ireland (state) would have replaced Republic of Ireland. Consensus was used to prevent change not to reach agreement. Republic of Ireland is incorrect for reasons previously outlined. If you don't know the politics then you need to research it a bit more. To suggest that a small number of editors are complaining (angus) and this is the only reason for the change is a nonsense. There are several small groups of complaining editors on both sides, including several who are throwing their rattles out of their prams here. There have also been a large number of editors who work on other sites than Ireland with some knowledge of history who are disturbed by the perpetuation of language which is now longer used and was specifically excluded by the Good Friday Agreement. What this needs is not the sort of "we find this inconvenient" and inaccurate position you adopted above, but a few serious admins to actually look at the facts and reach a conclusion which can be enforced. That means researching the facts before commenting by the way. --Snowded TALK 03:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was no need to change the status quo. I very much concur with Hemlock Martinis on this one. Much of the argument of those favouring Tariqabjotu's moves is based on the assumption that the presence of talk page discussion, controversy, a taskforce, and continuous polling pointed to the necessity of a move. It didn't not. It merely showed, as Angus pointed out already, that a minority of editors did not like the status quo. That's fine, and they have every right to challenge it through the appropriate channels. The problem with making moves based on the taskforce was that some of us (i.e. me) did not participate there because we believed (apparently falsely) that it would not have any direct effect on page locations: that, we thought, would be decided, per usual, by move proposals launched at the articles' talk pages and announced at WP:RM. Srnec (talk) 04:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In other words you avoided all discussion, and simply kept your block vote in a drawer. This cynicism is exactly what has been avoided. You had a chance to help forge the change, but you wouldn't play. And your use of "we" speaks volumes in my eyes - I've got very close to this, and I've known well the score.--Matt Lewis (talk) 05:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the taskforce had come forward with a consensus proposal... who knows? Maybe I'd have supported it. You have no idea what cynicism is. By using "we" I include other editors who feel as I do. We both know who they are. Srnec (talk) 05:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The notifaction was pretty weak too, at least on the former RoI page. There was a move proposal in...August? September?....and then a message two days before the move. 2 days? Really? THat is an appropiate tme for such a controversial move? --Narson ~ Talk • 07:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether the move was correctly closed or not, and I say not, the current situation is entirely unacceptable. There are now > 25000 links (mainspace only) to a disambiguation page. The status quo is positively harmful. Perhaps some uninvolved administrator could remove the need for these 25000+ pointless edits and just put Ireland (island) back to Ireland? Thanks Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If proof were needed that this is not even wrong, here are the page view stats from October:

• Ireland (disambiguation) 1455 views, unranked
• Republic of Ireland 131156 views, ranked 1877
• Ireland 302792 views, ranked 467.

So, instead of having the primary name for the most viewed article, and one of the 500 most viewed in October, we have a disambiguation page there that nobody ever read. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even more proof as to why the decision above was ill-conceived. We should revert it back to before the moves and continue the discussion from there. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 03:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read bold below: --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined to believe they should probably be moved back now. Angus' arguments are strong, plus it's quite obvious that such a drastic change needs more legitimacy and credibility to stick. If the community actually does want these changes - and various users have to do lots of work to reorganize everything if this is the case - then there is nothing wrong with "confirming" this, and if it doesn't, then we should see that too. This should probably happen quite soon now, as time has already cleared the issues up. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Angus has a huge stake in this - please don't fall for what he is trying to do (ie make Ireland (island) a second country page again - it would be a disaster). --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meh. -- tariqabjotu 04:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from tariqabjotu's Talk re Angus' bot suggestion:

In no way have a bot change all the Ireland links into Ireland (island) - the majority of Ireland links refer to the country, NOT the island (and this can be proven). This fact is one of the main arguments for changing the status quo: Ireland (per common-name usage) has been habitually used instead of Republic of Ireland to mean the contemporary or the historical Irish state. A bot sending them all to the new island article is an absolute nightmare scenario! The idea with the approach Tariqabjotu moved on is that they all now sensibly go to the new Ireland disam page. --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously - we have a workable situation now, and you all could ruin it by doing this crazy 'bot' move. I don't even want to think about the consequences of it, but it will all start all over again (probably trying to make Ireland the main country article). We CANNOT have two state articles, and this move will instantly make Ireland (island) one again (as it was as Ireland), and the last 2 days editing work will start to reversed in an way I don't even want to think about. We MUST acknowledge why people wanted this change!!!!--Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We had a workable situation before. If you had a problem with content at Ireland you should have just edited it. Most people didn't want this change. Srnec (talk) 05:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"We MUST acknowledge why people wanted this change!!!!" Lets acknowledge it then. A small group of persistent POV pushers have been trying for a long time to get Republic of Ireland moved to Ireland, and the island article moved elsewhere because they object to the term ROI because it was created by the British. The move request at ROI failed multiple times, meaning they had to come up with another solution to remove the primacy of the island article. No doubt in a few months we will see a request to get Ireland (state) moved over to Ireland now that the island article has moved. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A significant group of editors objected to the use of the term ROI for a range of reasons including the fact that the two governments concerned had agreed to no longer use it. At various times there has been a majority in favour of the change, but a minority used 'consensus' to prevent change. Some of that group wanted to use Ireland (to confirm with other wiki use) but in various debates agreed to compromise to Ireland (state). Of course it is very easy to see the mote in someone else's eye while not seeing the log in your own. --Snowded TALK 10:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you could be bothered to look at the taskforce where most of us 'opened up' to a degree, nearly all af us agreed that 'ROI' was a red herring (though some don't like it, and some like me are neutral, nobody loves it) - deep down this was always about Ireland the island, and the complex ways people see it. And having two forking (time sharing, even) 'country' articles HAD to stop. And for many, it was about the disambiguation mess surrounding it all - though some are happy with that side effect of course. You have had a clear stake in this in the past, number57 - and your accusations of others you are repeating verbatim are simply open to yourself. You are behind the times, and are fighting an old war here - Ireland the island is widely known to be the central issue now, and you can't kid anyone with the creeky "small group of persistent POV pushers" line any more.--Matt Lewis (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"You have had a clear stake in this in the past" - I wouldn't say that commenting on a couple of debates since the nonsense at Flag of the Republic of Ireland in mid/late October and !voting on one of the many past RMs back in August - is a clear stake in the past, especially when compared to the fact that some of the editors have been involved in move requests dating back to early 2007 or even 2006. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Administrator note I took the bold liberty of returning the pages back to their stable locations, as enough time for deliberation has passed considering the nature of the affair. Administrator opinion as expressed is that the moves didn't have consensus, and its effects are disruptive. As RfCs etc are proceeding, and as tens of thousands of links are currently misplaced, further discussion and firm consensus for future moves should take place from the status quo ante. PS, I left the redirects to the bot, but if there is anything else now wonky because of the moves that I can fix, please let me know. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to be the first to object to your bold liberty. Evidently it is time to take this to Arbcom. -- Evertype·✆ 16:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good work - sanity has returned (at least temporarily). Lets hope this doesn't turn into a wheel war like Burma/Myanmar did though... пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What? Straight to arbcom? A move could be undertaken locally on the pages to move them, in the proper fashion, to this proposed set of names. Or on one of the pages providing notification is posted on the other pages making it clear what is going on. It was last tried in september? Might be worth having annother go, see where consensus is. --Narson ~ Talk • 16:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One thing you could do Deacon is see the section below on Matt's innappropriate refactoring of Talk:Ireland (now Talk:Ireland (disambiguation). If anybody is to have a chance at understanding the events of the last couple of days, especially in light of this latest move, that page needs to be restored to its correct timeline, and I don't want a block for doing so. MickMacNee (talk) 16:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a problem here that I'm not quite sure how to handle. docartemis (talk · contribs) has had an account since Oct 2007, and during that time has done nothing except add external links. Until today the total number of edits was 9, but just today there were 18 more edits, all adding links to podcasts hosted on http://docartemis.com. The website is owned by Ginger Campbell, M.D., and the podcasts actually appear relevant to the articles, so I don't think this needs to be handled harshly, at least at the start, but on the other hand I don't think the links can be allowed to stay. I bring this here because it seems delicate enough that it ought to be handled by an admin. user:JHunterJ has left a message on the editor's talk page concerning this, but I think something stronger needs to be done. Looie496 (talk) 03:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See how he responds to the warning before considering him a spammer. Daniel Case (talk) 05:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd wait too, this may get handled editorially. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – Obvious sock shown the door. Guy (Help!) 00:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page has been full protected for 3 months in apparent contravention of Wikipedia standards. From the wikipedia protection policies: "Brief periods of full protection are used, rarely, when a large number of autoconfirmed accounts are used to make a sustained vandalism attack on an article." In this case it appears it is not autoconfirmed accounts editing the article. Also 3 months could hardly be considered "brief." Also note, (again from protection policies)"Persistent vandalism, or the possibility of such for high-trafficked articles does not usually provide a basis for full-protection." I hesitate to say this is an abuse of power, but it certainly appears to be an overreaction. This article should not be protected, or at the most -extreme should only be semi-protected. Yofton (talk) 20:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]

The wikilawyering on our rules as to when and where protection is used is one thing. But the rules as written allow for variation. You can, and should, argue which changes you need to make on the talk page of the article; or even argue for unprotection - but not on the grounds that we're not obeying our own rules. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 21:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the new user has concerns, he is free to go to that article's talk page and propose some ideas. It's also worth pointing out that full protection was only applied on the 29th, due to persistent vandalism. Prior to that point it has largely been only semi-protected, and in fact wasn't protected at all for 11 days preceding, until the siege by various sockpuppets of User:Pioneercourthouse forced the issue. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse protection. The article is the target of continuous sockpuppet disruption.  Sandstein  07:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The unbelievable persistence of the single-issue sockpuppets is what forces us into this result, in my opinion. Full protection is a desperate remedy, but it is needed in this case. If the article were not being so strongly attacked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Inviting Yofton to join in discussion will probably have no useful result, just as with the prior warriors on this topic. Anyone who keeps trying to insert the same few sentences for two years probably feels very strongly, as shown by Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Pioneercourthouse, which names 30 sock accounts. But this person doesn't feel strongly enough to make a convincing argument on the article's Talk page, one that includes a proper reference. EdJohnston (talk) 21:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protecton seems perfectly reasonable given the single-minded disruption of this person. As evidenced in the checkuser case linked above, semiprotection was circumvented by a few accounts to further disrupt this page. At this point, since this issue has been around for two years, it may be time to get the ISP involved... — Scientizzle 21:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I make a comment about how an article should get unprotected and I automatically get labeled a "sock" on my userpage? I really don't appreciate that. I wonder if the Pioneer Courthouse Square "vandal" got pi**ed after he was treated poorly by Wikipedia editors like I have been. Ever thought that might be driving his "vandalism?" I glanced through the discussion history on Pioneer Courthouse Square and it seems that at various times he/she has been willing to work with the community but they have treated him like s**t. Stop treating me poorly just because I suggested a page ought to be unprotected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yofton (talk • contribs) 23:48, December 1, 2008 This template must be substituted.

At least this one's not writing in fake broken English. It's kind of sad, though - I was hoping he could find a citation for his ongoing claim - that the homeless in the Square are mostly harmless, except for the occasional murderer. It was kind of funny the first time, but it gets old after awhile. He nees some new material. "A funny thing happened on the way to Pioneer Courthouse Square - I met a guy wearing one shoe. I asked him, 'Lose a shoe?' He answered, 'Nope. Found one.'" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, quack. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 00:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oregon Ducks, that is. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – AFD nomination reopened. SoWhy 14:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I boldly closed the AFD as a speedy keep (as a non-admin, obviously) due to the nomination being done by a banned editor. I closed it as such as I thought it was within WP:NAC as well as clearly within the speedy keep criteria to do so. As expected, one of the users to sided for deletion does not agree with the outcome ([49]). My rationale (I am echoing from my talk page response) is that banned editors are not supposed to edit and are to be reverted on sight, which includes banned editors AFDing articles. I do not think ignoring the rules is wise here as it sets a bad example in regards to banned users; it doesn't matter how constructive their edits may happen to be. Banned users are not supposed to be editing in the first place, and it undermines the work and tough decisions made by those who have decided to ban those users.

If the consensus among admins feels that I was incorrect in the AFD closure, then feel free to revert the closure. MuZemike (talk) 07:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I have to side with Ironholds here. From WP:SK:

In this case the consensus was developing despite the nominating user's status and should not be interfered with. After all, things created by banned users are not automatically deleted but may be kept if that is more useful to the project. Regards SoWhy 08:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing for how many cases we actually have written policies. I agree with SoWhy (and thanks for digging up that policy bit.) Any objections if I just re-open the AfD? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do it! --Orange Mike | Talk 22:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Editor, Well I want to mention here a fact that i have noticed on Wikipedia n is disturbing a large population f the world. And the fact is that an article about Prophet MUHAMMAD ( PBUH) shows his pics as well which is extremely disturbing for all the muslim population in the world who visit and see this article in wikipedia. It is so as in our religion it is not appropriate to make a sketch of our Holy Prophet and even impersonification in any form is not allowed. I dont know if any one before me has discussed this fact here or not but i as a regular user of wikipedia and as a responsible citizen of this world requests you to kindly take out all small pictures n sketch which some one has posted on wikipedia and are representing ( and thats a mistake n offense for large number of muslim population and may create a big conflict ) Our Holy Prophet. I hope you will care for emotions and will respect our religious facts and will take it out so that we may continue using wikipedia once again with more ease. more to hear a good news soon from you. Thanks.

Kindest regards, Nuktaa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuktaa (talk • contribs)

We have discussed this ad nauseam in various places on Wikipedia and have decided as a community that Wikipedia's no-censorship rule overrides all. We respectfully request that, if an article on Wikipedia offends somebody, they avoid visiting that page. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 09:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nuktaa, please see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ as this may help. Pedro :  Chat  09:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder how difficult it would be for our devs to provide an ignore list for the casual reader? One that pops up so you can add various names, places, whatever, so you can be sure that you will not be perturbed by accidentally reading about them... If possible, could they trail it with a test subject of Kenny Rogers being made unavailable for anyone in Cornwall? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An editor raised some concerns on my talk page regarding the FAQ. It seems unnecessary to have the "other offensive content" section with the links to blasphemy, gruesome images and, in particular, pornographic images. That seems highly disrespectful. Consider that this is still basically the talk page of Muhammad, and the page is meant to address concerns by those who are offended by the images in the article. Is it really necessary to basically take a position of "Hey, if you think those images are offensive, check out what else we've got..."? I'm all about keeping the FAQ pretty much as it is as far as explanations go, but do we really need visual examples of how we're not censored? Can text not achieve the message? لennavecia 04:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're best off keeping that section. One of the frequently-made accusations back when this subject blew up originally was that we were specifically descriminating against a particular group, singling them out for offensive content in a way that we didn't do for other groups. The "other offensive articles you might like" section helps to counter that accusation by providing the truth: we set out to deliberately offend virtually everybody in one way or another across our encyclopedia, because that's what encyclopedias do. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 09:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I thought the same as Jennavecia when I saw that page - I understand the need for an explanation and think the existing text does a good job, but the "look who else we offend" section seems egregious. EyeSerene^talk 09:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, Redvers, but that's a terrible explanation. Why can this not be explained without linking to images? Luckily the section is not named "Other offenseive articles you might like", which is just further disrespect. Perhaps best to instead link to previous discussions about it, where such images may be linked as examples given during debate. However, linking these blasphemous and pornographic images on the talk page of Muhammad's article is highly disrespectful, and I'm neither religious nor easily offended. لennavecia 13:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the explanation is correct. Those offended by some pictures of their prophet are most likely thinking that there is a anti-muslim bias and the section specifically tells them two things: 1.) were are not censored, nowhere and 2.) "hurting feelings" is not a valid reason to delete things.

Noone forces anyone to click those links and we could just rename the page to Wikipedia:FAQ for people who think we are discriminating against one particular group if someone really thinks that just because it's on that particular FAQ it's wrong. But "disrespectful" is not a term I'd use to argue rationally and I see no logical reasons why those links should be removed, because they are very useful to prove the point. Regards SoWhy 13:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know what to do here, so I'll ping this here notice-board-thingamajig. The above user is on the very edge of disruption. They add information about "new" episodes for various cartoon articles. Most of the episodes are non-verifiable, and most (if not all) of their edits have been been reverted by numerous people. They're contributions are not constructive, nor are they being communicative (messages on the user talk page have been unanswered). Notification of the discussion has been placed. Yngvarr (t) (c) 14:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. Isn't there a serial sockpuppeteer that does exactly this? Will have a dig in the archives. CIreland (talk) 15:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may be thinking of User:Squirepants101/Danny Daniel or Wikipedia:Long term abuse/Komodo lover. This case doesn't appear to match either of those very well though. —BradV 17:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – Ragusino's main account is still blocked. Jayron32 has renewed the semi-protection on DIREKTOR's talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 01:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This guy does not quit. Just to bring everyone up to speed, User:Ragusino got blocked 31 hours for 3RR violation by Tiptoety [50]. He completely ignored the block and continued to edit and harass with his IP, which resulted in an extension to one week by EdJohnston [51], and again to one month [52]. After that he immediately proceeded to harass me on my talkpage by posting his "detective nonsense" and reverting my edits (see history [53]). I gave him some time to give up on his own and, when that failed, reported him here on WP:AN/I [54]. Jayron32 then semi-protected my talkpage for 24 hours [55] which apparently does not deter this guy as he duly resumed his harassment [56] once the short-term protection expired.
I feel a block extension would not be overkill, and may deter him from further harassment. As far as I'm concerned, I'm getting sick of his messages and I hope someone will find the time to semi-protect my talkpage, preferably for a longer period this time. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would be appreciative if an admin can take a look at good faith editor Monegasque. Placing biographies into categories, the problem is that the user's basis is the surname of the article subject ONLY. That's it. If the person has a Welsh surname (or it sounds like it could have originally been Welsh), they are categorized as a Welsh American. If the person's surname is English, they become an English American. It doesn't matter if the person had one, single English descendant 200 years prior. The surname could have been a stage name or a married name - doesn't matter: they're an English American. This might seem innocent, but it is categorizing not based on fact or referencing - merely the subject's surname. Several folks have kindly mentioned similar observations on the user's talk page, but the user's tireless work continues. An admin's kind words of clarification would be very helpful because a ton of misinformation is being sprinkled around in Wikipedia daily. Best, A Sniper (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"a stage name or a married name"... That quite simply isn't true. I have systematically checked for stage names and married names. "or it sounds like it could have originally been Welsh"... That isn't true either. I haven't been working on a "sounds like" basis. I have only mentioned the family background in cases where the name is unequivocally of Welsh/Irish etc origin. I have also systematically excluded surnames used as anglicized versions of corresponding Scandinavian/German/etc names such as Anderson, Johnson, Nelson, Miller, Smith etc. "It doesn't matter if the person had one, single English descendant 200 years prior"... Anybody should understand that in the U.S., where descendancy from a single country is very much the exception and found almost exclusively among people of fairly recent immigrant background, a characterization as an English/Irish/Welsh etc American does not constitute a claim of exclusive descendancy from this or that country. Anybody who is familiar with Wikipedia articles about persons born in the U.S. knows that it's not uncommon for a person to be characterized as, for example, both Irish American" and "Italian American". In some cases a third and fourth characterization as "Dutch American", "Swedish American" etc may be included. It's clear that according to Wikipedia practice, partial descendancy does count and a mention of (partial) descendancy is normally not understood as a claim of exclusive descendancy from any particular country. Monegasque (talk) 10:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categorizing a biography based on no evidence other than the person's surname seems like a waste of article space. Lorrie Morgan became a Welsh-American solely due to Monegasque's belief about the nationality of her surname. Reliable sources to justify these assumptions about nationality are not being added anywhere. 'All people named Morgan are of Welsh descent' seems unlikely to be true, and is not even claimed in our article on Morgan (surname). EdJohnston (talk) 15:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Srkris (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The first block in the log on December 2006: "Repeated incivility and probable copyright violations after final warning. Persistent and frivolous charges of Wikistalking after administrator explanation that no Wikistalking has occurred." Srkris recently returned to editing and has recommenced with this problematic conduct in November 2008 - some examples specified below:

• Uncivil edit summaries:
  • (Mitsube - clueless reverts)
  • (Undid revision 254810541 - if you are clueless, stop !!!)
  • (Ever heard of linguistic periods? They merely represent stages of the development of languages. Stop your clueless reverts.)
  • (rv Dbachmann, you are clueless about extant Vedic vs historical vedic of the early vedic period.)
  • (ever heard of metrical and other restoration of vedic?)

• Uncivil commentary:
  • Suggesting a professor who is an editor is incompetent
  • You missed the wood for the trees, that's all I pointed out. Ultimately I got blocked for trying to protect referenced content from being removed. I have no wish to come between your edit wars. Have fun.
  • Dbachmann is also then your Voice of India worker, look he enlarged it first. Have fun reverting. The professional linguist User_talk:Dbachmann#Persistent_vandalism_of_Sanskrit_page said something in your talkpage, remember? Atleast I'm trying to contribute content with the good intent of improving the article (like I did to pronouns section, compounds section etc) much of which were repeatedly reverted in bad faith by you-know-who. Sudharsansn, the sociolinguistics professor, hasnt made a single meaningful contribution to any of the sanskrit-related language articles. Need I then go into the question of who is disruptive and who's not?
  • Diff of Srkris warned about incivility
  • It is obvious who has behavioural problems (perhaps from childhood). I had to indicate the consensus that was reached a long time back to not include images of current musicians because of POV concerns raised by the same editor then who makes these POV inclusions of images now. Talk of adamancy, hypocrisy and pure stupidity. Kindly dont edit unless you really understand what's written at WP:NPOV. Just because DKP is your favourite artiste or her grandmother doesnt merit an exception for wikipedia. - unsupported accusations.

• Frivolous charges against more than one user:
  • [57]
  • [58]

• Wikihounding me by editing on pages I've edited or created, where he has not edited before:
  • [59]
  • [60]
  • [61]

This is similar to the disruptive and uncivil behavior of User:Sarvagnya, who although was found not to be a sockpuppet, engages in similar unacceptable behavior. Srkris has also been disruptively warring on multiple articles, including Sanskrit (which he was blocked for recently) and related articles, as well as Carnatic music. He fails to comply with content guidelines or policies, or similarly on conduct issues.

It appears that the only purpose here for is to use this site as a battleground against multiple editors and persistently engage in misconduct. Whether this is through direct violations of policy, or POV pushing, it's simply not unhelpful for this project. This, and more, may also be evidenced in his contribution history.

I request that Srkris be banned from editing Wikipedia. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ec - You upload copyvios, somebody calls you on it and you want them banned. Sweet! Sarvagnya 19:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use/copyvio images are an area of concern for me (I nominated some images Ncmvocalist had uploaded for deletion when he mentioned this issue to me) but the issue is still a serious one. Srkris has been persistently attacking Ncmvocalist and others despite warnings- poor image uploads from other editors have nothing to do with it. J Milburn (talk) 20:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copy vivo violations does not mean that one has to violate civility to point them out.Taprobanus (talk) 21:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ec- Maybe antagonism, team tagging and browbeating with uninformed reverts like the one mentioned here has something to do with it. Sarvagnya 20:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In order to keep this discussion orderly, please raise copyright concerns in a different thread. I fail to see the relevance. Durova^Charge! 20:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry.. but if you're happy to accept random links as evidence of "wikihounding", you might as well bear with me while I point out that there's been no wikihounding whatsoever in the three links Ncmvocalist has dumped above (under "wikihounding"). Unsubstantiated accusations are personal attacks and there's plenty of it in Ncmvocalist's message above. I have not yet heard what Srkris has to say, but I've heard what Ncm has had to say and I see quite a few holes in his accusations. Sarvagnya 20:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please do address any shortcomings in the presentation. It would be more effective to do so, however, if you parse individual instances with diffs and explain the background, rather than making broad assertions. Durova^Charge! 21:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely a problem. The editor had very low activity from January 2007 until September 2008, and the behavior itself hasn't changed. Badly out of step with site standards, demonstrates no receptiveness to feedback. Durova^Charge! 19:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The fact Srkris continues to attack other editors and behave in a completely inappropriate way, despite warning after warning, block after block suggests to me that he is not going to change his ways. J Milburn (talk) 19:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will, of course, provide this link to a WQA report filed today by Srkris against Ncmvocalist. ►BMW◄ 19:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, please note the diff I used under frivolous charges. Cheers, Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you refer to the WQA report, please note that I suggested that this be brought to AN/I. To me it seemed clear looking at the evidence presented that this was an entirely frivolous report with no justification whatsoever and seemed to be abusing dispute resolution processes to make a point. Having taken the time to review this editors past history it would appear a number of editors and admins have tried to educate Srkris about wiki processes and the standards of behaviour expected. That seems to have failed, his contributions seem to be unnecessarily confrontational and disruptive. Justin talk 20:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I presented a very strong case to do the same just a few weeks ago, however, Srkris did get banned for something different. Right now, he is engaged in edit-warring with me in the Sanskrit page and has intimidated me several times. Srkris repeatedly talk about my profession, 1, 2 and 3 even this is something he inferred from my mention of that in another talk page. However, when I replied back and asked him to mind his own business and stay away from my profession, in a rightfully intimidated tone, he jumps on me by reporting at the [62] board. Now he takes one extreme step further and in spite of having gotten me banned for 12 hours, looks at my routine and wants it extended further. Now those who have dealth with Srkris really know that he is here only to push the Aryan-Sanskrit supremacy agenda and out on a rampage against all Wiki processes and guidelines. He has no place in Wikipedia and his continue presence after six blocks is only a failure of the policies and guidelines. Now Srkris is going to come back here and start going on the frivolous offensive against write everyone and try to get Ncmvocalist or myself banned elsewhere by intimidation. That is also being recorded here. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 20:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Btw, some of the comments that both of us, Ncmvocalist and I missed mentioning:

• This is for the Sociolinguistics professor - look who first..

• Sudharsansn the sociolinguistics professor

• The professional linguist said something in your talkpage

• Sudharsansn, the sociolinguistics professor, hasnt made a single meaningful contribution to any of the sanskrit-related language articles

Within a day, he has brought up my profession four times. Now this is extremely inappropriate. First, he peeped into another userpage to find about my mention of being a Sociolinguistics professor. Second, he brings it up in unrelated talk pages. Third, he brings it up to degrade one's profession and makes it look as though Wikipedia is a place only for people like him, who should actually find themselves a job at Voice of India, and not for academics. This is extremely uncivil. If any of you even remotely understand how irritating it is to have some disruptive, uncivil editor repeatedly talk about one's qualifications!! [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 21:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

From Talk:Sanskrit -

Wow! Wow. And you're complaining that he called you a "sociolinguistics professor"?! Wow and good luck. Sarvagnya 21:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please turn down the heat and let's have a reasoned discussion. Durova^Charge! 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the history through the talk pages, this seems to be the style. Goad editors into making a comment, then complaining of incivility, quoting the involved editor out of context. Look at the complete history Talk:Sanskrit#region. I speak as a completely uninvolved editor who stumbled on this when I noticed a post on wikiquette alerts. I've also noticed that Sarvagnya and Srkris seem to act as a tag team, I believe a check user has eliminated the possibility of sockpuppetry but there does seem to be a strong indication of off-wiki co-ordination. Justin talk 22:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So there's been a formal wikiquette alert? Any other dispute resolution? Durova^Charge! 03:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sarvagnya, I know that you are very concerned about your POV buddy Srkris without who you would feel very lonely in several edit wars involving the two of you pushing a blatant agenda, including your presence here backing him by trashing me. I have been blocked for 12 hours for making that comment, so I cannot be prosecuted for that again and again. The point, however, is the fact that Srkris is literally goading people into making comments and then, as Justin has suggested, quote them out of context and get them blocked so that he can unobstructedly continue with his usual thing. I had requested for a checkuser some time ago, between Sarvagnya and Srkris and apparently it got cleared. However, it becomes evidently clear that both of you are indeed working a tag-team, perhaps, offline coordination. It is time such disruptive coordinated POV behavior gets penalized. Otherwise, it is seriously pointless to have pages and pages of guidelines and policies. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 23:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So any two editors who disagree with you on a talk page are in cahoots? And may I point out to you that stuff like "POV buddies" is uncivil and borders on a personal attack. Cease and desist. This applies to Justin too. Sarvagnya 23:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest you 'cease and desist' templating the regulars with meaningless warnings for policies they havn't breached. Really, there is no point to it. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(add) I wanna jump in on this n all, I've just seen Justin's talk page. Your multiple accusations of "personal attacks" remind me of the sort of amateur tricks used by trolls, IPs and POV warriors. I also realise by your logic this too will constitute as a "personal attack", I suggest you re-read WP:NPA, especially (and somewhat ironically) the part that says; "Accusing someone without justification of making personal attacks is also considered a form of personal attack". Ryan4314 (talk) 02:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sarvagnya, you don't really need every single admin to come and tell you that what you are doing is simply nothing more than POV pushing by forming 'swat' teams, and defending the team members, do you? Your cooperation with Srkris, coordinated POV pushing (and several others that I don't even want to start talking about) and even your very presence here, out on a rampage against anyone saying anything condemning behavior that is very similar to yours (an example) is definitely dubious. If POV buddy is uncivil, then even your 'cease and desist' is very, very uncivil. The very fact that you are out on a rampage against all those who shun such blatant violations of Wiki policies and guidelines, by frivolously branding others of violating it, proves many things. I would recommend that this case be taken up by Srkris, involved editors and the admins. I am quite certain that no one here needs tech-support and I don't want to help you in diverting attention and hijacking this thread from focusing on Srkris's behavior. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 01:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

As noted on the two open cases at Wikiquette Alerts, the aforementioned citations provide no evidence of personal attacks or slander, or any depreciated terms. What the administrators have seen thus far, and have commented on, is clear misrepresentation of not only notices, but edit summaries. Calling one a 'troll' is not a personal attack; it is an approperiate term used to describe the editing patterns of a particular user. As someone else noted, the assertions of stalking are nonsense. On Carnatic, Ncmvocalist first edited the page more than a year ago; ditto with Chemblai. One should note that the OP has accused others of vandalism where none exists.

These frivolous reports are becoming tiring, especially when users such as Neon white (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) believes that this is an "attack." I suggest that the OP and others involved back away from the article and take a break; Ncmvocalist has performed no ills here, and while his characterizations may have been off, they are by means not a personal attack. seicer | talk | contribs 04:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I heartily agree with Ncmvocalist and Sudharsansn. Skris has promoted a strange anachronistic and nationalist slant on the history of Sanskrit and Indian cultural influence. User:Srkris often doesn't use sources. He has also been caught attributing things to sources that do not appear in them. Further he revert wars to advance his agenda, without properly using sources, or by deleting properly sourced material. He also thinks his knowledge is greater than it is, and was caught incorrectly declining a simple nominative case adjective in the first line of the Sanskrit article (he changed it to something incorrect, on his own authority). Other users seem to have lost interest in dialogue with him, for these reasons. Mitsube (talk) 04:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is, I hope, no need to dig into my past edits to prove that I have been blocked for edit warring etc; I know I have been less than perfect in the past, and I dont need to be reminded that I have already been chastized for that. To know why Ncmvocalist has raised this issue against me, see Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Ncmvocalist. This is apparently his mode of retaliation for my complaints against him there. Sudharsansn & Mitsube have ganged up with Ncmvocalist above simply because I represent their "common enemy", so to speak. So reporting my actions here from 2006 is the only thing Ncmvocalist could do with the hope I would be blocked for the same edits again and again. I dont think wikipedia works like that, though.­ Kris (talk) 05:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As someone has pointed out elsewhere, this is called WP:DRAMA. Nmvocalist is not bringing up incidents from 2006 but the ones that went unnoticed and unpunished. This whole ganging up business is mere nonsense. Your complaints against Ncmvocalist, Dbachmann and myself in the Wikiquette noticeboard are basically attempts at goading other editors, quoting them out of context and of course reading between the lines. The complaints against Ncmvocalist and Dbachmann have been unanimously accepted as frivolous charges with the intention of creating a fuss about nothing. For example, it is fairly obvious that a troll does not mean the hairy creature that eats goats and is indicative of frivolous edit patterns and accusations. However, you called tech-support from Sarvagnya and he is right there backing all your incivility while, understandably, going on a rampage against frivolous issues. Even your attempts at 'defending' your position are merely frivolousness and not to mention, going on an outright rampage against the editors here. It is very ironic to see you write about the way Wikipedia works. What most seem to know is that Wikipedia should not work the way you intend it to, it is not a mouthpiece of your ideas or POVs and is guided by a set of policies and guidelines which you utterly disregard. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 05:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

We understand that everyone loses their cool now and again but the concerns brought up in [63] againt yourself were valid so i dont think that is a good example to use as abuse of process. In most edit waring and entrenched dispute, there is fault on all sides to some degree. As i stated on the alert, i believe this editor has some good contributions to wikipedia that are not disruptive and it is this particular dispute that has become 'entrenched' for those reasons i believe involuntary mentorship would be a good solution. --neon white talk 05:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the overwhelming majority of his edits I have been compelled to observe have damaged the project. I don't know what contributions you are describing as "good." Mitsube (talk) 05:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might have to go back to earlier this year but there are edits that do not look disruptive to me.[64] --neon white talk 06:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This looks to me like blatant customer support. If all you can bring up to substantiate your claim about good edits is one single edit, ignoring ALL the other disruptive POV edit-warring and other aforesaid behavior, then this is exactly just an insurance policy. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 06:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

That was just one example there are many edits around that time and earlier that do not seem on the face of it to be disruptive. I'm not suggesting ignoring the recent behaviour, i'm suggesting that we can see that the editor did at one stage make some good edits and mentorship would allow oversight of any future edits. --neon white talk 07:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neonwhite's backing of Srkris's meaningless complaint is exactly what is being explained as a frivolous charge. To call someone a troll does not indicate a personal attack and this has been pointed out by several other admins and editors in the sections of this same page in which Srkris has framed frivolous charges against other editors. Trolling indicates editing patterns and NOT the hairy creature from Norse mythology that eats goats and smells awful. Just because you or Srkris cite something as a personal attack does not make it one. It has to be accounted for as a personal attack and consensus gained to establish it. Srkris cannot unilaterally establish consensus that it is a personal attack.

Srkris repeatedly talking about my profession in the disparaging sense and mapping that to what he considers as 'incompetence' thereby degrading me, my profession and my professional competence is what called goading someone. Accusing someone without justification of making personal attacks is also considered a form of personal attack. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 06:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The compliant showed very clear evidence of personal attacks and you were blocked for 12 hrs as a result. I think everyone is more than aware of User Srkris' behaviour but regardless you still need to maintain your own and not react in kind. --neon white talk 06:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am contesting the block because I was not even using Wikipedia during the time I was banned. Even otherwise, your baseless backing of Srkris by bringing my behavior into question is pointless. Even assuming that I was indeed 'uncivil', in spite of being quoted out of context, I was given a 12 hour ban and it is over. That has no relevance to the behavior being discussed here. Quoting my behavior or that of the other editors here does NOT absolve Srkris, at all. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 06:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not 'backing' anyone and regardless it would be my choice to do so should i wish. I'm pointing out that at least one of the WQAs had very valid points. and am repeating the advice at Wikipedia:NPA#Responding to personal attacks. --neon white talk 07:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• To whatever admin wants to take this up: I have closed the frivolous WQA alerts filed by this user. Gaming the system is unacceptable and diminishes our mechanisms for good faith dispute resolution and decorum issues. Some kind of sanction is certainly in order. Eusebeus (talk) 06:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only replies I see are a series of frivolous charges against all the editors who have all raised valid issues, that have had consensus as genuine issues from several other editors, making a big fuss out of nothing and able customer-support backing all the frivolousness and drama. Seriously, nothing else. In fact, the best policy that describes it, amongst some other relevant ones, is gaming the system which falls under WP:POINT. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 06:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

To make things clear, this report against me was filed in retaliation after I reported the incivility of Ncmvocalist and Dbachmann at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Dbachmann and Wikiquette_alerts#User:Ncmvocalist. Those were civility issues which were arbitrarily closed by Eusebeus saying that the same is being discussed here, and that I am involved in gaming the system by raising those WQA alerts. This ANI report itself was not existing when I raised those alerts. I wish the WQA alerts filed by me are reopened without prejudice to this ANI discussion. ­ Kris (talk) 06:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree I called some editors clueless, but that was not in a pejorative way. I genuinely still believe they are clueless about the articles in question when they were making those edits. I did not intend to make any personal attacks.
• The WQA alerts that I raised against those editors' incivility are all well founded, if you see those diffs. This ANI report was raised against me much later, so it is not me that is seeking to game the system. ­ Kris (talk) 07:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but what? On the WQA, I went through every single diff you provided and commented on their lack of uncivil activity. As such, no, I'm sorry, but they were quite sadly not "well-founded". The ANI was raised to bring admin attention to your unfounded complaints - I believe you had ample time to review your actions and withdraw before creating additional issues. ►BMW◄ 12:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• After I reported Sudharsansn for incivility, he was banned once. Again he was incivil, and I reported him again, no action on that yet, see Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Sudharsansn. You dont agree he was uncivil?

• Dbachmann calls me a troll. You think that's not an insult? Yeah yeah i know you will repeat that it represents a pattern of edits and all that judgemental crap, but it is a pejorative and an insult (to most people). That is uncivil and was also reported at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Dbachmann. You think this is also not uncivil?

• Ncmvocalist follows me around (WP:Stalk) and makes disruptive edits immediately after I edit some articles where his earlier content contribution is nil. This was reported as stalking at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Ncmvocalist.

• Thereafter Ncmvocalist starts this ANI asking for my ban. One admin closes the WQA reports I filed against Ncmvocalist and Dbachmann accusing me of "gaming the system by raising counter-allegations". I have repeated that this is the retaliation filed against me, and it is Ncmvocalist, Dbachmann and Sudharsansn who are gaming the system, not me. ­ Kris (talk) 14:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from the obvious WP:DTTR, the addition to my Talk Page [65], nicely illustrates the way the two editors in question have been abusing wiki processes to be disruptive and to intimidate other editors. Again the tactic seems to be generate heat and noise to distract from the central issue, that being two editors apparently working together to push a POV agenda. Further to the comment above, it was the clearly frivolous and abusive nature of the WQA that caused me to suggest that the issue was raised here. Note this was the suggestion of a completely uninvolved editor who had merely looked at the dispute. Justin talk 06:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, so you are suggesting that I be punished because someone else supports me? Thanks very much for your conspiracy theory. ­ Kris (talk) 07:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's fair to say that this is the issue that needs to be resolved and all the allegations and counter allegations of incivility could be dropped as they are going nowhere fast. --neon white talk 07:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To add to what Neon White has said above, he (an admin that has worked on related edits before) has already earlier warned the users of incivility even before I raised the WQA, so the subsequent instances of incivility I reported at WQA were not on frivolous grounds. These comments by Justin above are the kind of conspiracy allegations I am being levelled against for quite some time, and based on which I am sought to be blocked. ­ Kris (talk) 07:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See above regarding the unfounded calls of incivility ►BMW◄ 12:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You see again now. ­ Kris (talk) 14:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the talk page history of Srkris, the discussion here (and his responses), it is clear that this is an ongoing problem. Evidently, there has been a lack of receptiveness to feedback, his behavior is badly out of step with site standards, and has not changed since 2006. Gaming the system is unacceptable and diminishes our mechanisms for good faith dispute resolution, and his repeated frivolous charges can no longer be overlooked. Srkris continues to attack other editors and behave in a completely inappropriate way, despite warning after warning, block after block, and this suggests he is not going to change his ways, even on content issues such as POV pushing. Given the sheer long term nature of this disruption and the variety of misconduct, and the multiple topics (as well as articles, and contributors affected by it), I put forward this proposal: "Srkris is banned from editing Wikipedia for 1 year." Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongly support. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 09:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Skris has done more harm than good so far, it is true. I still don't see why he should be blocked for a full year immediately. Block him for a month. If he doesn't get the message, block him for two months after that, then for four months, and after that, if he still doesn't get it, for a year. I have the impression we often fail to make use of the tool of block length escalation. There is nothing wrong with placing a moderate block in order to push home the message "you're not helping. Think about it. No, do". Some people will reconsider their attitude. If they don't, they can always be slapped with a longer block still. --dab (𒁳) 10:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I think the message has been emphasized over six times with the latest one being a perfect indication of the fact that things just wouldn't change. Uncivility, stalking, sockpuppetry, most importantly, repeated instances of ALL of these after bans, there you go, one has a picture perfect frame of repeated violations of most of Wikipedia's policies. Any attempt at prorating this would only lead to similar long pointless threads, that would essentially ignore all previous blocks and behavior. Srkris would only come back and ask for all previous behavior to be discounted by going on a rampage against the admins and editors concerned. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 11:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Per Dbachmann William M. Connolley (talk) 10:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can see that viewpoint Dbachmann and William, but perhaps 3-6 months may be a better alternative? I feel 1 month is at the other extreme, given the extended duration of these problems, as well as what occurred after the first block in December 2006 - something that was completely unacceptable. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I believe I have caused more harm than good only to the above (except Connolley) editors who were intent mainly on edit warring as a method of pushing POV, not to wikipedia. It makes no surprise for me that the very same editors have now ganged up to get me out of "their" way. Way to go. Banning me for life would be the best remedy for the above editors to push their POV unchecked, any less would satisfy them on a pro-rata manner. All the above editors (again except Connolley) have been warned and/or blocked for their incivility earlier, reported by me. No surprise that they are strongly supporting this ban request raised by Ncmvocalist. ­ Kris (talk) 11:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ncmvocalist and Sudharsansn (probably also Mitsube who hasnt commented so far) will keep bumping this request for ban again and again till their objective is achieved, and that wouldnt surprise me either. This whole ANI report against me was made as a retaliation for my reports against these editors at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Dbachmann, Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Ncmvocalist amd Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Sudharsansn, who want me banned now ­ Kris (talk) 12:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I am going to be blocked/banned, I request that I be banned for life. Not only would that satisfy the above editors no end, it would also save me a lot of time knowing that wikipedia is not for me. ­ Kris (talk) 12:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Can you please stop this whole 'drama queen' behavior and let admins and editors vote? You are not garnering any sympathy by playing the 'victim mentality' card and constantly repeating 'oh-prosecute-me-I-am-so-poor' trick since your behavior does not really correlate to that anywhere!! Everyone who has voted so far are endorsing a ban, the only point that has come up seems to be the prescribed length. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 12:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment As much as I hate to use the banstick, I sadly now believe that should any ban/block of Srkris occur, we will likely see an increased level of problems/complaints from a certain supporter (who unfortunately borders on meatpuppetry (and no, that's not uncivil)). In my original WQA reply, I stated that at the time I did not recommend additional admin action against Srkris. Unfortunately, both Srkris and their #1 supporter then took turns taking potshots at me throughout the WQA. Yes, I have a tough skin, but at this point I see that at least one (if not more) actions will need to be taken. Everyone has something to add to Wikipedia, and perhaps a little break might just give some people new focus on how to do so. ►BMW◄ 12:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meatpuppetry??? LOL you guys are now paranoid, aren't you? ­ Kris (talk) 14:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I was going to bring that up too. Sarvagnya would go on an open rampage against all the editors who voted against Srkris by disruptive behavior and thereby bearing grudge. This is becoming a serious issue here, the whole problem of having tag-teams overrun Wiki policies and guidelines. While I am obviously not recommending anything for Sarvagnya, I am just writing this for it to show up on the record. I will let the community decide what would best preserve the policies and guidelines. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 12:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support 3 month ban لennavecia 13:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose an outright ban but would support a topic ban on the grounds that all evidence of disruption is related to a particular set of subjects. Taking a break from these and the POV pushing might help. I would like to see the editor involved in unrelated topics away from the editors that he/she has found communication has been difficult with. If, however, it becomes apparent that these problems are not restricted to certain editors and subjects then further action would need to be considered. I think this is a better way of dealing with it, we are at least attempting to help the editor rather than simply dismissing them as 'bad editor'. --neon white talk 14:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Read this ­ Kris (talk) 15:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:All the admins here strongly recommend a ban of some form or the other, so to keep picking on Ncmvocalist and me is totally pointless. What you have posted here is again merely diffs from this same thread. All this is just an attempt to keep the thread growing longer until one fine day everyone gets tired of this behavior. [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 15:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support He shows no more receptiveness to feedback than he did two years ago when I first blocked him, which is unfortunate because we do need more contributors in the area. Reluctantly supporting: problematic behavior occurs on too many levels to consider a topic ban, unfortunately. Blocks and formal dispute resolution have been tried without success. Politics is not a substitute for policies. Durova^Charge! 16:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose - Srkris' incivility has been no worse, in fact, much less worse than those of his opponents on the said pages. Surely calling someone "clueless" cannot be wrong when calling someone a "troll" isnt. Surely calling someone a "sociolinguistics professor" cannot be wrong when calling someone a "drunk going berserk" isnt. Sarvagnya 16:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Just so that you know, this is called as comparing apples and oranges!! [[::User:Sudharsansn|Sudharsansn]] ([[::User talk:Sudharsansn|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Sudharsansn|contribs]]) 17:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support I dont belive in banning anyone outright but giving people enough chance to reform would be ideal goal to aspire to, 3 to 6 months to cool off would be good for all.Taprobanus (talk) 17:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Support As a non-involved editor, I'd support an escalating block starting with a month, and escalating for one, two, six months if the same behaviours reoccur. Normally I'd be very reluctant to suggest use of an extended block but the response of Srkris to comments about his behaviour appears to be to try and deflect attention to other editor's behaviour rather than recognising that his own behaviour is a problem. As I noted earlier selectively quoting an editor's behaviour following a period of extensive goading is purely designed to deflect attention from what he must recognise is an inappropriate manner for editors to interact. I'd also reluctantly have to suggest that the same sanction is applied to Sarvagnya. His own incivility is just as bad and there certainly seems to be a suggestion of meat puppetry. I must admit to a similar suspicion myself based on the way these editors seem to collude; there certainly appears to be some off-wiki co-ordination. Justin talk 17:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(If you're not aware of this issue, please see here for a recap)

Looks like I ticked off "The Network" pretty good. They're now attacking Tampa, Florida and letting me know [on my talk page] that they're back. They've also attacked Benjamin Franklin Bridge, as they started to do before Thanksgiving. Have we found out if that picture can be locked yet? EaglesFanInTampa 21:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How depressingly childish from people so privileged. Still, a week's semi-prot on the two articles will give the rich boys time to get bored and move on to urinating in public or whatever these fraternities do in this day and age. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 22:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I wholeheartedly agree they need to get a life, I don't think a week-long semi-protect will work (or else I would have gone to WP:RFP); just look at the histories of Camden, New Jersey and Cooper River (New Jersey) after their weeklong blocks were removed. I personally believe that the pic needs to be locked, like was discussed in the previous thread out here on ANI. I know that locking pics is usually reserved for penis and poop pics, but let's be real; what articles, other than the ones now, really need a pic of the 1906 San Fran earthquake? It's not a generic smiley, or even a bombed-out landscape in some unknown land. We know when and where it is, so shouldn't that be enough to restrict its insertion? EaglesFanInTampa 23:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seicer has bumped the protection up to three months. That should give them plenty of time to get bored. As for the misuse of the image... well, I don't think you'll get anyone to agree to blacklist a non-offensive free image, but point yourself at MediaWiki talk:Bad image list for instructions on how to try to get it blacklisted. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 09:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's why I say that the pic needs to be blacklisted: Tampa Bay Rays diff. Now it's just getting stupid. While I think it's actually pretty funny (and actually kind of proud) that I've aggravated them so much they're coming after me now, they're finding articles unrelated to Camden, New Jersey and just dealing with articles related to me. Obviously, a semi-protect on Tampa Bay Rays is now needed, but am I just going to have to go in circles every time something gets attacked? If I could just get some admins behind me in blacklisting a pic that doesn't belong anywhere but on pages related to the 1906 San Fran quake, this may makes this stupidity end and let me get back to real edits. EaglesFanInTampa 13:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Threeafterthree (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is revert warring across perhaps a dozen and a half articles I created up to (but as of now not exceeding) WP:3RR on a style dispute. His edits (adding the adjective "American" to the first part of the first sentence in each bio, and in many cases deleting more specific statements of residency and scope of professional work), were in my opinion clumsy and degraded the articles. Giving him the benefit of doubt on the close cases I selectedly reverted about half of the edits. So far so good, that's how BRD/consens works.

Now the problem. Without discussion the editor simply reverted his changes back. I asked him to stop and self revert, he refused. I reverted some back myself with explanation. He reverted his changes back in, going up to WP:3RR (for example, here[66][67][68]) claiming that because he is acting per the MOS my opinion does not count.

At my insistence he brought the issue up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Nationality in the lede of bios. The discussion is new but there is already a difference of opinion on the subject of how to describe nationality, and a fairly strong sentiment that this is a case-by-case decision for editors of each article. Undaunted, and after many warnings by me to stop edit warring, he just expanded the edit war to other articles I edit, continuing that I need to get consensus to stop him. Check out these edits,[69][70][71][72][73][74] which are occuring after the informal dispute resolution on the MOS talk page in full swing. So he's edit warring while participating in dispute resolution, not instead of dispute resolution. Plus, he's going down a list of my articles, and no others, so whatever his intentions it feels a lot like harassment and wikistalking.

We've dealt before with contentious editors who make mass article edits and edit war to enforce their positions, claiming that WP:CONSENSUS does not apply to them because they know the WP:TRUTH about the guideline. A quick check shows that this editor has been blocked three times in quick succession last month for edit warring against consensus on what he considers style matters, the most recent on Barack Obama - I hope he did not follow me from there.

I do not wish to edit war, but I need a way to engage in reasonable editing. You may or may not agree on the style edits but as a behavioral matter I'm completely boxed in. If I do nothing he makes bad edits to articles I've worked on. If I revert the worst of them he will edit war up to 3RR (I wonder if he would break 3RR but I'm not about to find out - that's what ANI and consensus are for). He won't wait for consensus or discussion. And he's doing it to all of the bio articles I've worked on.

Could someone please warn him to follow process rather than edit war and/or deal with him if he continues? Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 22:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that looks rather inappropriate. Tom has very obviously followed Wikidemon to a number of articles just to make a point. Grsz¹¹ 23:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to find out from him what it was, exactly, that provoked this methodical and most likely retaliatory behaviour? If it's — excuse me — tit for tat, addressing the tat might discourage the tit? — Writegeist (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While that sounds like a promising approach, I doubt it will be productive. Asking for an explanation would be tantamount to asking for an admission that this is a cmpaign of bad-faith edits. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK

The user name rings a bell but I have absolutely no recollection of dealings with this editor. Although blocked for revert warring on Obama-related articles he does not all seem connected to the sockpuppeter and allies who disrupted the page so much. Looking through his talk page and block history the only prior interaction I can find is a warm and fuzzy 3RR caution I gave last month.[75] There is something curious - he's a prolific good faith editor with more than 10,000 edits and only a single block over a period of nearly 3 years. Yet in the past couple month he's been accumulating one warning after another for edit warring all over the place, and three blocks in short order. Running out of civility perhaps? Anyway, although his wikigaming and stalking is bad more or less by definition, I have no reason to question his motives. He's probably just trying to spiff up the encyclopedia, and doesn't react well when I disagree.Wikidemon (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Running out of civility perhaps?" Or meds? — Writegeist (talk) 02:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? Many things more serious than this have been deemed "content disputes" - i am quite surprised to see editors above reacting as if this were clear-cut vandalism or something. I for one find inherent value (and common sense) in mentioning a basic thing such as nationality (not ethnicity, not regional identity) in the lead of an article, and, on wikipedia in general, so does the majority of editors. In fact, I would advise not just using the nationality in the lead, but linking to the article ("American"). Just who would find this problematic but people who imagine that there's America and then there's the rest of the world? What's more, in those cases were said editor replaced a (whimsical) exception with the standard version, what prevents his scandalized adversary (-ies) to change to a compromise version that would feature both tidbits? What exactly prevents Albert L. Farr from being an "American residential architect, based in San Francisco", instead of the two incomplete versions that are not in fact contradictory? Dahn (talk) 03:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot say this enough. Edit warring a bunch of articles simultaneously en masse in response to one's personal view of the guidelines is a very bad idea, as is the attitude that consensus does not matter when guidelines are at stake. If you look at Threeafterthree's blocks and warnings, most are for this very sort of thing - edit warring rather than accepting consensus on things that are relatively trivial stylistic matter. The last one, that got him blocked for a week, was changing Barak Obama to Barak Hussein Obama II in the infobox, or maybe it was the other way around. I forget which because I was totally uninterested in the issue. The problem wasn't that he is right or wrong, because both of them are legitimate names for Obama. The issue was that he kept reverting despite article probation and the efforts of the dozens of other editors to find and respect a consensus on the matter, thereby causing lots of wikidrama, wasted time, and instability to the article.

Wikipedia is all about editors with different opinions working collaboratively. If you look at the attempt at dispute resolution one editor was solidly behind me in principal, one was solidly behind Threeafterthree, and a third said it is a case by case decision with no clear answer (which supports my position). So we had a split result in the hour or two before he started edit warring the exact same issue on a new set of articles.

I do not own any of the 100+ articles I started or the hundreds more to which I have contributed. Many have been greatly improved by the work of other editors. Others have been vandalized or degraded and I pitch in to fix any bad edits. At least half of Threeafterthree's changes were for the better or at least acceptable and I left them alone - I reverted the ones that did not make sense to me. At that point he should have attempted to reason, or work with me, or discuss the mater. Instead he simultaneously reverted up to 3RR on every single article, a dozen or more of these, then instead of respecting a dispute resolution process opened up a new front on the same matter on a new set of articles. If you say that's a content dispute, what am I supposed to do? Revert him again until we are both at 3RR? Then we'll have a contest on the 3RR notice board about which one of us will be blocked, and likely we will both be. Let him have his way because he's more stubborn than me? That's no way to edit an encyclopedia. The only reasonable outcome I can see is to tell him to stop and follow reasonable BRD, collaborative editing. He won't, which is why I came here. Wikidemon (talk) 03:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not find these edits to be bad in any way. User:Threeafterthree appears to have made good faith edits that he believed would improve the articles and which followed the guidelines at WP:MOSBIO. User:Wikidemon changed them straight back, apparently believing, against guidelines and (in my opinion) common sense, that inserting the individual's nationality in the lead of a biographical article was unnecessary. It then developed into some form of edit war, with both reverting the other. Maybe it should have been taken to some form of conflict resolution earlier, but for Wikidemon to accuse Threeafterthree of edit warring is, I'm afraid, laughable. It was Threeafterthree who made perfectly acceptable and sensible edits and Wikidemon who reverted them. To then accuse him of edit warring is disingenuous in the extreme. May I say that had I spotted an article without a nationality in the lead, I would have done exactly the same thing. I would also, had I been in the mood and given the vociferous nature of the reversions, have checked the editor's contribution list to see whether he had written any other articles in the same way. That is not stalking or harrassment; that is good editing to bring articles in line with guidelines. It seems to me that this is a simple disagreement in which one editor is in line with guidelines and one is not; oddly, it is the editor who is not who is reporting the other for edit warring. Wikidemon's apparent claim that the guidelines are ambiguous is simply not true - the first section of WP:MOSBIO sets out quite clearly that nationality should appear in the lead paragraph - it is therefore not in any way POV to add nationalities to the lead paragraph. And, incidentally, the fact that Threeafterthree has been blocked in the past is utterly irrelevant - this is an entirely different issue. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The mind reels. I do not know where to begin. Let's make it simple. Don't edit war and don't systematically go after another editor. Threeafterthree was doing that and it is onerous, tendentious, and disruptive. My version of the edits I selecively reverted is better and more in line with guidelines. You and Threeafterthree are free to your own opinion but again, don't edit war and throw policies like WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EW out the window just because you are convinced you are right. Calling me "laughable", "disingenuous", and beating the drum that you would wikistalk me too are all counterproductive. Threeafterthree's recent block and warning history indicates a pretty serious problem. If we ignore or encourage it, it's going to get worse and from my experience watching editors on comparable paths the outcome will not be pleasant. Wikidemon (talk) 12:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Folks, I usually don’t like to spend this much time or space on disputes but I must in this case. I will try to provide some background. I find biographies very interesting and do quite a bit of editing to make sure they comply with MOSBIO. My first block was due to a group of coordinated ip editors adding “Jewish-American” to approximately 800-1,000 bios a few years back. I reverted 100s of these and had a misunderstanding with an admin. Recently I have ventured into Political articles, which can be quite contentious, and admittly broke 3rr, which I am sorry for and will try hard not to repeat this mistake. I will admit that I probably could have dealt with Wikidemon better but it is very frustrating to be reverted by a user who seems to have taken ownership of articles and takes it personally. All I can say is thank god for user Necrothesp’s input and voice of reason. He has articulated my position perfectly. I feel that I am following a very well laid out and thoughtful MOS but I am the one being brought before this court and I am the one getting slammed. Also, the joke above about being on meds is totally uncalled for since this actually is the case. The number one thing I like about Wikipedia is the transparancy. I am sure that if you spend only a few minutes reviewing this, you would not get the full picture, but if folks were really willing to spend a great deal of time review contributions ect., they would see that I do try to follow policy and work with other editors. Have I had disputes with others? Of course, but it usually takes two to tango. Anyways, this will be my last post since I have decided to retire since this type of drama is not good for my health and will defer to the community. It is user’s like Necrothesp that renew my faith that I am not totally crazy, just slightly :) Please feel free to revert any edit I made recently and best to all. Cheers! --Tom 15:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikidemon: "My version of the edits I selecively reverted is better and more in line with guidelines." In what way? Care to provide some evidence? Which guidelines are your edits in line with? You are very fond of accusing others of edit warring (now you appear to be accusing me of it too simply because I disagree with you!) and being in breach of guidelines, so maybe you'd like to actually back up those claims. Because as far as I can see this is a pure case of a difference of opinion. I suggest you calm down, stop throwing accusations around, and provide some evidence to back up your claims that your edits are "more in line with guidelines". I'll provide some, from WP:MOSBIO: "The opening paragraph should give:...Nationality". Pretty unequivocal and unambiguous. You've contributed plenty of good stuff to Wikipedia, you seem generally reasonable, so I'm not sure why you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Threeafterthree's perfectly sensible edits. Nationality is an important piece of information to put into the introduction. The guidelines say it is. Most editors do it. What's the problem? Accusing Threeafterthree of edit warring and of stalking and harrassing you because he added something perfectly standard and sensible to some articles you've created seems a bit of an overreaction to say the least. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An image is being repeatedly put into the article Cat litter. IMO it is advertising. I've now removed it three times and another editor has also removed it. CBHA (talk) 23:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reported the IP editor as a probable spambot. --GoodDamon 23:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I didn't know that was the world's greatest cat litter. I'll have to go out and get some now - and I don't even own a cat. (Or vice versa.) However, a more appropriate photo might be a cat litter box, with "before" and "after" photos, if you get my drift. That would dispell any questions the casual reader might have about the product. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's too funny. World's greatest cat litter indeed. Some cat litters are just born great, some achieve greatness through hard effort, yet others have cat litter thrust upon them. Wikidemon (talk) 23:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ewww... Can I pass on the cat litter thrusting, please? --GoodDamon 02:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Thrusting"????

I actually use this litter for my cat! seicer | talk | contribs 02:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's sad is that I might actually go buy it...cat has been having issues with Tidy Cat. --Smashville^talk 03:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One thing you definitely don't need is a cat with litterbox "issues". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great. Now everybody at work wants to know what I'm laughing at and I have no way of explaining that doesn't sound insane. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 09:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do like I do and tell them to read it for themselves.--Alf ^{an unsweet and tough shameless thing} 11:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Admins, if you did not ever edit in any article related to Scientology you should have a look at this. I am not interested in Scientology much but I got attacked instantly when adding a scholar reference to Dianetics some days ago. Now I am suspected to be the "sockpuppet" Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Highfructosecornsyrup of a banned editor by User:Cirt. Admin Cirt is busy adding a lot of content to scientology articles himself and IMHO seems to do this to discourage me to give my opinion. Something does not seem right here. Shrampes (talk) 00:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something indeed does not seem right here. I welcome admins to look into the case page at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Highfructosecornsyrup and this relatively inactive user's sudden interest in WP:AE. Please direct further comments to the WP:SSP case page. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 04:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Philip Baird Shearer unilaterally moved the page Big Ben from Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster despite no clear consensus and against established policy.

Please see:

• Talk:Big Ben#Requested move
• Talk:Big Ben#Questioning the move - abuse of admin power.3F
• Talk:Big Ben#Brilliant move
• User talk:Philip Baird Shearer#Big Ben move despite lack of consensus
• User talk:Chillysnow#Big Ben

This matter has already been discussed on the relevant user talk pages, and I raised a case at the Mediation Cabal. However, PBS refused to get involved.

Subsequently the content of the Big Ben page has been changed making a request to move the article back to its original name less relevant; however what remains is PBS's original unacceptable behaviour. I request this matter be investigated and the appropriate action taken. His behaviour has already caused a valuable editor to leave in disgust. Chillysnow (talk) 01:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

actally, moving pages an be done by any editor, although it srequires consensus unless the move is really really unconroversial. i dont know much about the issue but its not an abuse of admnstratve behavior. Smith Jones (talk) 03:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect he might be making a similar point here, although there is no abuse involved. Although I disagree with him in that specific case, I see the broader argument.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PBS made no use of admin powers in this matter, so he cannot be accused of admin abuse. If you disagree with the move, take it up at the talk page of the article in question, or pursue dispute resolution methods, including request for comment. There is no action for admins to take here, since this is purely a content issue. That one of the disputants happens to have the admin bit does NOT make it admin abuse automatically. Solve this as you would solve any dispute with any other editor, admin or not... (and here is not the place to solve disputes like this). --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, a bit of an issue here, and some insight might be helpful. Tool2Die4 (talk · contribs) has been removing the reference tag in the Terminator film article, calling it stale. Old it might be, but as the need for citations didn't magically evaporate, I at first reverted the [removal as a well intentioned mistake, and suggested discussion. It was reverted by Tool again (1), which prompted me to head to his UserTalk page and request he use article discussion to make his point. His fun-filled reply to "not be a dipshit" was prefaced by a pretty uncivil post in article discussion (2) and again revert out the tag with an equally unfriendly remark(3).
The user doesn't have a lot of edits here, and I am exercising restraint in not biting the user's head off, as I genuinely feel they want to add something helpful. That said, it is clear that the user isn't going to listen to me, so perhaps someone else might step in, and help them get back on track?
I think this goes a little beyond dancing along the electric 3RR fence, and further interaction on my part would have prompted the user to likely break it (the user was very recently blocked November 16th for 3RR, and in April for the same sorts of aggressive edit summaries in evidence here). I'd recommend a block, but mentoring might be of more use. Thoughts? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 05:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts? You're a pain in the ass, and you know you are. Accept it, and move on. Tool2Die4 (talk) 09:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support block - Per the comment above mine, it is obvious this editor will not get a clue, or provide any useful contributions. At least in this moment in time. Maybe a block will wake him up to that.— Dædαlus ^Contribs /_Improve 12:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, i can't believe someone would make such a big personal attack like that one right in front of a whole bunch of admins, but i'm more than sure that as soon as he 24 hours expires, that he will start will his disruptive edits again. Elbutler (talk) 13:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still thinking the user might benefit from mentoring, and probably less caffeine. If he can spank his Inner Child into behaving, he might turn into a pretty good editor. That said, I appreciate the time-out for the user. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Frank Dux article has been under a barrage of edits from single purpose accounts, presumably to censor any criticism over his history. It's bad enough that we've had to apply for semi-protection three times, but now there are legal threats arising from ip accounts. I'm at a loss over how to deal with this level of meatpuppetry. Any help would be appreciated. Djma12 ^(talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the IP is saying that "Wiki" *slap* "Wikipedia as well as Jimbo Wales are in the wrong" rather than "I am going to sue you." It seems more like normal disruption rather than a direct legal threat. I would recommend that the IP "put down his Dux." *rimshot*. MuZemike (talk) 05:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPLT seems to apply. Toddst1 (talk) 06:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Toddst1 here as it is the perception left by the IP that is most flagrant. IP is a pest and this is one part of his arsenal - I have also semi-protected article for a month but willing to give it much more if IP or friends return.--VS ^talk

Despite several comments [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] indicating to User:Thunderbird2 not to edit closed archived RfC pages the user has continued to do so [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87]. We don't allow closed archived RfC/U pages to be edited with new content after the close date because they are meant to reflect what went on at the time they were closed and not what some users think should be happening months after the closure. Otherwise we would have the situation where one user, like Thunderbird2, would be able to keep an RfC open forever by adding fallacious content every month. The recent edits by Thunderbird2 to the RfC are part of a larger pattern of disruptive editing documented in the open RfC. Since the user doesn't appear to be taking notice of the comments on his behaviour and continues his disruptive pattern I'm asking for some help in dealing with the behaviour, such as a block or very stern warning from an admin that User:Thunderbird2 will be blocked if the behaviour continues. Fnagaton 06:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your helpful comment Arcayne, I hope the user listens to what you have to say. Fnagaton 07:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – No action required. User has demonstrated that the block was sound. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

EliasAlucard (talk · contribs · count · api · block log) was blocked by me in February for "racist rants, incivility, POV pushing, edit warring, disruption".

• EliasAlucard still posting anti-Semitic rants on Wikipedia
• Other relevant ANI threads, in reverse order: [88][89][90][91][92][93][94][95][96][97]

At the time of the block I said that I was open to the user returning under the mentorship of a strong editor. The user is now requesting a mentorship and unblock. On his user page I wrote, "Please comment on the behavior that caused problems before. What did you do wrong then that you won't do again?" Here is his response:

• I got blocked for writing "Holohoax" during a heated discussion in which User:Boodlesthecat was involved (who, probably, will be blocked soon, for being a trouble user fishing for problems: Proposed mentorship for Boodlesthecat). During my almost one year block, I've had time to cool off, and reflect on my blocking incident. I've come to understand that, Wikipedia is, to some extent, fiercely opposed to free speech. In the words of User:Avruch on my talk page: “Wikipedia isn't a government, you do not have a right to free speech here”.^[98] (as if questioning and/or doubting the Holocaust was allowed by some governments). There is of course a double standard in all this. Wikipedians (mostly of Turkish descent) who question the Armenian Genocide and Assyrian Genocide, don't get blocked (and neither should they be blocked, either, because it shouldn't be a thoughtcrime to be of a different opinion on any historical event). This indicates that Wikipedia is fairly politicised as an Encyclopedia and in no way allows neutral editors on the Holocaust article. But I can't recall ever having edited the Holocaust article, and I'm not about to start any time soon, because it simply doesn't interest me enough. Looking back, at my so called "behavior", I think it was obvious that I needed a break from Wiki, and that I perhaps had gotten too emotional on the discussion pages. I've had my break, and it's been almost an entire year. Aside from that, in all my chutzpah, I think you owe me an apology for blocking me indefinitely. I also think it's your responsibility Will, to mentor me, if you can't find anyone else who wants to mentor me. You being the one who blocked me indefinitely, it's only fair the task should be up to you, because you seem to be the only one who is requesting this. What I won't do again is to raise any critical thought, opinion or dissidence against the Holocaust. This is apparently forbidden here on Wikipedia, and chances are you will get blocked indefinitely for it. I really ought to boycott Wikipedia on general principle for this, and many established Wikipedians who understand the importance of free speech in this day and age, very rightly so, protested against my block. Now, all that being said, I promise to behave this time around, because I'm interested in contributing with high quality edits on several population genetics entries here on Wikipedia (I've been reading lots of genetics related articles on PubMed Central as a good waste of time, and frankly it's a annoying me that I can't improve some sections that are lacking in quality). EliasAlucard / Discussion 08:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not inclined to mentor him and in light of this response I am no longer sure that unblocking, even with mentoring, is a good idea. Is there a consensus for unblocking? If so, should there be a mentorship or other constraints? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good Lord, no. No unblock, no mentoring. He doesn't seem at all to get it. Dayewalker (talk) 09:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely no. He's not saying he will change his behaviour, just his targets. dougweller (talk) 10:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yeah, I completely agree with an absolute no. The point seems to have passed him by...at very high speeds. We don't need to dump the same problems on another area of the 'pedia. Shell ^babelfish 10:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my, no. Lack of clue on an epic scale. // roux   editor review 11:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No unblocking. Mentoring exists for people who show genuine promise in changing their behavior. This guy just wants an excuse to continue his POV crusade... Absolutely not... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 11:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh. Nice WP:SOAPBOX. And they want to focus on "population genetics"?? Isn't that what causes ethnic cleansing to begin with? "I promise to focus not on the result, I promise instead to focus on the cause". Um, no thanks. ►BMW◄ 12:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, paraphrasing: "Screw all you fascist pigs; that being said, I promise to behave this time around". Your first act of mentoring should be showing him how to better fake sincerity. Kuru ^talk 12:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Just piling on here, an unblock seems to be an unwise idea. — neuro^(talk) 17:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – cleaned up by Cosmic Latte (talk · contribs) –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 14:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If somebody could clean up after Whimperingcoward (talk · contribs), it would be appreciated: I have an early meeting to go to and don't have the time. Acroterion _(talk) 11:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done, apart from my typo (see below). Cosmic Latte (talk) 11:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Much appreciated. Acroterion _(talk) 16:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone redirect Tongue splittling back to Tongue splitting? I made a typo in my initial attempt to revert page-move vandalism by a Grawp sock (see above), and cannot figure out how to undo my own error. Thanks. Cosmic Latte (talk) 11:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Y Moved back and cleaned up all the redirects. Regards SoWhy 11:39, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See our latest visit from our little friend. He started moving pages with only 1 edit. How could this happen? Didn't we implement, like 2 months ago, a new 10 edit minimum on autoconfirmation? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's probably deleted edits, as the internal edit count is 11. MER-C 12:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are indeed almost exactly ten deleted edits. Kuru ^talk 12:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That should maybe be fixed. That means someone can make a completely useless easily deletable article then is treated as autoconfirmed. Maybe it should require 10 edits which aren't deleted? JoshuaZ (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it would really make much difference. A completely useless deletable article at least gets them on someone's radar. 10 completely useless edits to the sandbox will still get them past the basically worthless autoconfirm barrier. --Onorem♠Dil 15:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is why pagemove should be taken out of autoconfirmed and moved into a separate pseudogroup. 50 or 100 undeleted mainspace edits would pretty much nail any gr*wp-style pagemove vandalism. New users have almost zero need to move pages anyway. // roux   editor review 17:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On Saturday night, I blocked HPJoker (talk · contribs) for 72 hours for grossly incivil comments toward Atlantabravz (talk · contribs) and Bwilkins (talk · contribs). Well, this morning 74.50.119.142 (talk · contribs) left incivil remarks in a similar vein--and in the very same section--of Atlantabravz' talk page. I initially reset his timer (it had 12 hours to go, no less!) and was about to leave a "one more stunt and it's indef" message when something made me check out his history. Not one constructive edit from November 22 onward--instead, mostly a raft of uncivil comments on user talk pages. Given this track record and what appears to be a social networking approach to the project, I ran it up to indef. Please review and/or endorse. Blueboy96 14:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse - To an extent. Maybe an indef is a bit too much, but it does pass WP:DUCK... hm, I probably would have suggested 6 months or something. Maybe I'm just too lenient. — neuro^(talk) 17:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know i'm not an admin, but here me out. You probally remember Simulation12, the so-called "kindergartner" who's recently been blocked for indefinitley. Ever since then, i've been keeping a close eye on PBS Kids aricles in case Riley tries something sneaky, like using a sock-puppet account. I noticed someone named "Marcellusb" who also edited children's articles. Most of his edits are unconstructive and/or vandalism. I know that it's a long shot, but i think he may be Riley. He keeps creating useless articles and creating pages that are just copied from pre-exsisting articles. I have no clue what to do, i've already contacted Gladys, so i'm hoping that someone may come up with a solution (AKA Block him).(Elbutler (talk) 21:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Marcellusb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for the lazy. Protonk (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Can you post some diffs of Simulation12 (talk · contribs · page moves · current autoblocks · block log)'s edits that match this editors? Likewise, can you post some diffs of this user that are clear and obvious vandalism or deliberate errors (I'm looking through the contribs now). Protonk (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... i can't find anything similar (beside creating non-imporatant articles for Martha Speaks), i was so sure. But the edits are still disruptive. Elbutler (talk) 21:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait! this edit by Marcellubs, is similar to this edit by Simulation12. Elbutler (talk) 21:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That strikes me as a pretty tenuous comparison. I'd AGF for now (Trust but verify, of course), it isn't outside the realm of possibility that there are two users who create disruptive/test pages on PBS entries. If you think of some more obviously disruptive edits then bring them here. If I'm missing something obvious (like a string of obvious vandalism), then feel free to say so. :) Protonk (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just remembered a cool tool. Only one article has shared edits between the two users. May not be a sock. Or if it is, it may be a sock designed specifically to get around a ban, not edit identical articles.Protonk (talk) 23:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, Gladys has been asleep all day (I'm on vacation, I can do that!:) and just now logged on to edit. I'm not 100% sure this is Sim12; in fact, I'm not even 50% sure. There are some similarities, but more dissimilarities, IMHO. I'm definitely not dismissing ElB's concern, though; I say we watch and wait. (Though it does strain credulity that two separate editors would be creating trivial articles about "Martha Speaks"--if only because it's easily one of the crappiest PBS Kids' shows I've ever seen, nearly as crappy as "It's a Big Big World". Seriously, PBS has kinda lost the plot.)GJC 23:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What you see above you, is a copy of the previous discussion. Why did i re-add this? Because Cellubs is on the move again, and starting to show more Sim12 characteristics. He often uploads images without explaining where he got them from (a common thing that Simulation12 did) and today he left this on Protonk's talk page (When Riley's page was deleted she first came to me, insulting me). I don't know wether or not it is Riley, but that personal attack deserves a temporary block. What do the rest of you have to say? Elbutler (talk) 14:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • Checkuser indicates  Unrelated. Thatcher 16:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This IP user was blocked earlier for repeated edit-warring and ignoring requests to follow accepted procedures. Now that the block has been lifted, he's doing exactly the same thing as before (see Polygamy's recent history). Sadly, his edit summaries suggest he simply does not understand why reasonable people should have a problem with his editing style. Richwales (talk) 15:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Lewis has made four substantial changes to the order of the Ireland talk page in the last 24 hours, they are listed below. Related discussion can be found at Talk:Ireland#Note_on_article_discussion. MickMacNee (talk) 16:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• 15:39, 2 December 2008
• 15:18, 2 December 2008
• 06:01, 2 December 2008
• 20:52, 1 December 2008

Myself and another editor reverted these changes, and other editors on the page (in the RFC section I believe) also asked him to stop his confusing changes. The page order he is trying to alter already complies with WP:TALK, with sections ordered in the chronological time of posting. This is just a basic convention anyway, but with the recent major change in the page to a dab page, and subsequent admin actions such as protections, and the existence of an open RFC, following this convention is even more important, and edit warring over it is even more disruptive to people newly entering or re-visiting the page at this time of rapid discussions.

Matt Lewis states without diffs to have had admin approval to do this. Without looking I suspect this merely related to allowing protected edit requests to be refactored as new bottom sections, not approval to move entire discussion sections, changing the apparent chronological position of an RFC and other discussions surrounding recent events.

Could members of the admin corps investigate all of the above and advise anybody who has misunderstood WP:TALK accordingly. Or not, y'know, DGAF and all that.

MickMacNee (talk) 16:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. The current page version is in Matt's rearranged timeline, and an admin has recently restored the Ireland page and moved that page back to Ireland (disambiguation). MickMacNee (talk) 16:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MickMacNee will be excited to know I am taking a 1 week wikibreak (decided before this silly report by him). I cannot edit with this contentious editor acting entirely against the spirit and progress of Wikipedia as he is doing. I hope someone here will tell him exactly what he is doing by preventing these to be seen: 1) edit requests for a locked page 2) a live poll and seriously pressing debate on the main dabs of the Ireland dab page (for heaven's sake! I mean - for heaven's sake!). He simply (and openly) didn't like the recent Ireland page Moves (that made Ireland a dab page), and he doesn't want us to sort out the pressing issue. There can be no other possible explanation - and I know him to well anyway - he is notorious. An admin once advised me to move urgent stuff to the bottom of the page - that is all I have done, nothing else. He (and first an IP yesterday) 'edit warred' it - not me. And what is he doing now? Trying to get the poll creator into trouble. Over 10,000 people visit 'Ireland' (now a dab) every day. I'm just knackered trying to help the situation, and am taking a break.

I'd like to make this an report against him disrupting progress, as I am sure the policy he says he has is nonexistent. The stuff he says above about breaking chronology is just silly (nothing at all to notice), and 'the other editor' was an IP who announced to us all that he is 'resetting his router' and will be back. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see here and the user's talk page as to why. Bearian (talk) 17:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]