Talk:Raymond Chan Chi-chuen

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the article, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ray Chan → Raymond Chan Chi-chuen – Or Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician) or Ray Chan Chi-chuen? WP:NCP doesn't mention names of people from Hong Kong at all. Therefore, let's analyze sources, shall we? "Ray Chan Chi Chuen" is used by 10–13 articles. "Raymond Chan" is used by five articles. "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen" is used by 15 articles. However, I included additional search terms to skim down results, so results may vary. I don't see articles exactly using "Ray Chan" without any other. WP:DIVIDEDUSE may apply in case of amount of sources. If these policies and guidelines inadequately apply, then let's follow natural disambiguation because HK-style names of this person are neither obscure nor inaccurate. WP:NC-ZH does mention names of HK people, but I'm unsure if it helps or conflicts with WP:AT. George Ho (talk) 00:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Use Raymond Chan Chi-chuen or Ray Chan Chi-chuen, HK style of naming -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved for lack of consensus favoring the proposed move. Since Ray Chan is already an occupied title, WP:NATURALDIS also comes into play here, and favors using a natural variation of the name over the addition of a parenthetical. bd2412 T 00:42, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Chan Chi-chuen → Ray Chan – I'm surprise I was not made aware of the previous move, even though I created this page. It all seems like someone is trying quietly make all these moves to this non-existing HK convention as that IP stalker is saying without notifying anyone. There's no standard for Hong Kong names nor there is a convention on Wikipedia, so we follow the Chinese convention or English convention. If you got a Hong Kong convention, show it to me. Raymond is an English name, therefore follows the English convention with only First and Last name in the title, in this case Raymond Chan or Ray Chan. If he's more notable by his Chinese name, then rename the title to Chan Chi-chuen TheAvatar (discuss–?) 17:25, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I strongly suggest you refactor your proposal here, which does not appear to assume good faith on the part of George and is a personal attack on the IP editor. Move requests are collected at a central location, WP:RMCD, and it is not at all unusual for the same group of editors to be aware of and comment on the same requests. Please restrict your comments to the changes you would like to see to the titles of the articles in question. Dekimasuよ! 17:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Did the nominator notice that there's already a different article at Raymond Chan? I see no suggestion of what to do with that existing article. (Another suggested name, Ray Chan, is also already populated.) —BarrelProof (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I changed to Ray Chan, there's only two notable pages, a dab is not needed and hatnotes should have been used instead. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 18:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on whether one of them is considered the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. If neither is primary, we need a dab page. No information has been provided to establish that one of them is primary. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I'd like to see some proof beyond bing results (which don't work for me somehow). Are there official English-language (government) websites where he has an entry? Hekerui (talk) 18:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This .gov.hk website uses "Chan Chi-chuen". Other sources use full name, either Ray or Raymond: ABS-CBN, GayStarNews, ZDNet. --George Ho (talk) 19:47, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Haven't you paid attention lately? Sources have used both names, but choosing one over the other makes searching for this article harder for average readers. "Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician)" is a form of parenthetical disambiguation and has longer characters than the current title. Perhaps someone would rather drop out the parenthesis and act as if the article should be "Ray Chan" or "Raymond Chan". Speaking of Raymond Chan, there is Raymond Chan, a Canadian politician. Sources have barely or rarely used Ray Chan in referring to the HK politician. "Raymond Chan Hong Kong" has 100+ results, but there are many Raymond Wongs. Current title and Chinese name are easier searches. --George Ho (talk) 23:30, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, this is a low-profile politician whom we are discussing here. He is neither Jackie Chan nor Chow Yun-fat nor Donald Tsang. He is Raymond Chan Chi-chuen here, a politician whom many may not be familiar with, so we must take his level of notability so seriously, especially if you are concerned about the naming of the person. --George Ho (talk) 01:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"so we must take his level of notability so seriously" - I don't understand what you mean, please explain. Hekerui (talk) 18:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll rephrase: his notability may impact his recognition as either "Raymond Chan" or "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen" or "Chan Chi-chuen" per WP:CRITERIA. --George Ho (talk) 19:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, Speedy procedural close the last move was only recently closed. If the nominator wants to dispute the closure, he should use WP:MRV. Flipflop move requests right after the last move request is bad process -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 06:18, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the request resulted from frustration because the user was not contacted. To throw out "flipflop move requests" as if the user does this regularly is not necessary either, how about some deescalation, we're here to find a resolution for the best of the encyclopedia, no? Hekerui (talk) 18:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The user already knows about the article alerts page at WP:HK, as the previous request would have shown up there, since he's talked about it at WT:HK. The user has made a bunch of move requests to flipflop the result recent of moves. He's even called them "speedy moves" in other some of the other flipflop nominations, even though the move requests were not bold request nor did they appear at WP:RMTR, they were open for longer than the standard open request period for WP:RM discussions as standard move requests. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 10:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a move to something shorter, e.g. Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician), Ray Chan, or Chan Chi-chuen. A title should not be an exhaustive list of all names a subject has ever been known by. Typically, HK politicians articles use the format of Engrish first name followed by surname or surname plus Chinese given name, not a combination (see other entries at Category:Members of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong). Redirects will get readers where they want to go. —  AjaxSmack  02:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Choose one, AjaxSmack. Raymond or "Chi-chuen"? You can't oppose the current title without a choice. --George Ho (talk) 00:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you're wrong: "Chi-chuen" is shorter than "(Hong Kong politician)". --George Ho (talk) 00:45, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move as proposed. It appears the previous move happened with very little discussion, and there is a clear consensus to reverse that decision. (non-admin closure) Bradv 17:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chan Chi-chuen → Raymond Chan Chi-chuen – The article was renamed as result of the multi-page move. However, that discussion lacked participants. I was unaware of the moves. I propose reinsertion of "Raymond" into the title. Other sources still use "Raymond". Besides sources, criteria, to which WP:COMMONNAMES refers, have not been discussed. Also, we put ourselves or sources before "general audience"/"readers". This needs proper discussion. More will be explained at the Discussion section. George Ho (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support. Significantly more recognisable to the average reader. Andrewa (talk) 00:39, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Kdm852 (talk) 02:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. References to subject in the English-speaking world confirm the use of "Raymond". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:17, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support – I also believe the name "Raymond Chan" is more commonly used in English media, and hence the proposed title would be more recognisable to most readers. Citobun (talk) 05:32, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Any additional comments:

Sources using "Raymond Chan": RTHK, Hindustan Times, Radio Free Asia, Hong Kong Free Press. --George Ho (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Very few sources or less use "Ray Chan Chi-chuen", like (again) HK Free Press. Multiple sources use "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen"; Google and Bing can prove that. I tried finding sources using just "Chan Chi-chuen" but found none. --George Ho (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria may be goals (not rules), but a title must generally meet all five criteria. My analysis:

• Recognizability - The full name is recognizable. Sources adding "Chan Chi-chuen" also use "Raymond"; but made "Chan Chi-chuen" recognizable.
• Conciseness - The proposed title is more concise than previous title "Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician)". However, the present name is more concise.
• Naturalness - "Chan Chi-chuen" might be the name for quicker search, but "Raymond" is also natural name to search for. Also, the person is lesser known to readers.
• Precision - "Chan Chi-chuen" could be precise, but the present title is more precise. Also, it distinguishes from the other Raymond Wong, the Canadian politician.
• Consistency - There are Raymond Wong Pak-ming, Tony Leung Chiu-wai, Keith Chan Siu-kei, etc. However, some articles don't use full name, like Chow Yun-fat and Priscilla Chan (singer). Consistency is tricky.

Meeting criteria isn't enough. In fact, "recognizability" is also insufficient. However, very little or no sources, independent of .gov.hk websites, abandoned "Raymond" in favor of "Chan Chi-chuen". The present title "Chan Chi-chuen" might meet all criteria, but WP:COMMONNAMES would not accept the abandonment of Raymond. WP:NC-ZH is insufficient; so are WP:NCP. Another sufficient page would be WP:NCUE; multiple English-language sources use "Raymond" and "Chan Chi-chuen" in similar articles. Default to "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen" instead. --George Ho (talk) 22:38, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statistics would say that he is very less known to general audience. George Ho (talk) 22:47, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus to overturn the previous move. It appears that it is somewhat unconventional to use both English and Chinese names together, but there does not appear to be consensus on an alternative at this time. (non-admin closure) Bradv 20:17, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Chan Chi-chuen → Chan Chi-chuen – I was the one who requested to change it to the previous title so I wonder why it was reverted back to the current title without being invited to the discussion until now. But my reasons for making the move is as stated before: There are some articles who use the "English name+Chinese family name+Chinese given name" but as you can see they are not the created by trained wikipedia editors who are familiar with the common practice. On the contrary, there are more examples which use just "English name+Chinese family name" or "Chinese family name+Chinese given name". If you see the legco.gov.hk you can see that Chan Chi-chuen goes by his Chinese name only. To be honest, although George Ho says there are many English sources use "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen" rather than "Chan Chi-chuen", but let me remind you that is the common practice for them to use the "English name+Chinese family name+Chinese given name" just to be clearer, such as "Donald Tsang Yam-kuen" instead of "Donald Tsang" or "Albert Ho Chun-yan" than "Albert Ho", but that would not make the basis for changing the title from "Donald Tsang" to "Donald Tsang Yam-kuen" or "Albert Ho" to "Albert Ho Chun-yan". So I would like to revert it back to what it was, that is "Chan Chi-chuen" instead of the long and unnecessary "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen". Lmmnhn (talk) 12:09, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - This has gone far enough. I did invite you, but that was when no one showed up at the time. Multiple secondary sources use "Raymond Chan" and "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen". Official governmental website is not the only source to rely on at all. George Ho (talk) 12:17, 13 December 2016 (UTC); My bad. 07:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the consensus in the above RM agrees with the current title. Even when you would have voted "oppose", the results would be the same. --George Ho (talk) 12:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My bad: that was when others showed up on the same day. Also, Lmmnhn, "Chan Chi-chuen" is not commonly used by sources without "Ray" or "Raymond". We can't go by "official names" unless the name itself is commonly used as well as other names, like Hawaii Five-0. George Ho (talk) 07:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes you did, at 07:08, 12 December 2016 (UTC) but the move was made at 17:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC), 10 hours after your invitation in which other concerned editors and I would have very limited time to raise our objection. In all due respect, the editors who supported the moves are unfamiliar to me and not main contributors in the article or in Hong Kong biographies. Lmmnhn (talk) 12:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• "Raymond" or "Ray" - English-language news sources tend towards using Raymond or Ray rather than Chi-chuen as the primary form of his given name. Deryck C. 11:12, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no objection to change it to "Ray Chan" (like it was used to be before George Ho changed it) or "Raymond Chan (politician)" if that is the case. But the "English first name+Chinese family name+Chinese given name" format is just not the common practice and too redundant. Lmmnhn (talk) 11:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• There is the Canadian politician named Raymond Chan; pinging Lmmnhn, Citobun, and Deryck. --George Ho (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Also, the current title better than a longer "(Hong Kong politician)", which would push away readers. George Ho (talk) 20:20, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm okay with both disambiguation schemes - Ray[|mond] Chan [(Hong Kong politician)|Chi-chuen] are all acceptable to me. If I have to prioritise I'd do 1st "Ray Chan (Hong Kong politician)", 2nd "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen". Deryck C. 22:56, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To prevent another RM again, I would not object to "Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician)" or "Ray Chan (Hong Kong politician)" per WP:PARENDIS. However, per WP:NATURALDIS, the current title is neither made-up nor obscure per sources, but I will let anyone else decide. I still object to removing "Raymond". George Ho (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• It appears that "Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician)" or "Ray Chan (politician)" would be the most satisfactory solution for all parts. Lmmnhn (talk) 18:10, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Not "Ray Chan (politician)". I'm currently discussing the Canadian politician of the same name. "Ray Chan (politician)" should redirect to the dabpage. George Ho (talk) 18:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Agreed, it seems "Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician)" seems to be the clearest way considering the way the name is most commonly rendered in HK Eng media Kdm852 (talk) 02:18, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Late to the discussion... "Raymond Chan (Hong Kong politician)" seems to be the best title to satisfy consistency tavatar (discuss–?) 19:12, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I am OK with anything with "Raymond" in the title, per common use in English media. Citobun (talk) 12:12, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Before closing the discussion, I must notify this: the article is no longer move-protected. Also, there have been discussions before this one. George Ho (talk) 05:37, 18 December 2016 (UTC); edited 21:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. It's possible that a case can be made for Raymond Chan or Ray Chan, disambiguated if necessary (this brings up other issues), but the proposal under discussion here has no legs whatsoever. Andrewa (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per arguments in favor of using "Raymond" (or "Ray") which have been presented here and in the previous discussion. Also per WP:COMMONNAME as referenced in English-language sources. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:44, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose This is similar to the naming conventions we follow for Singapore related articles. If the English name is widely used in the media, we use it as well - regardless of the legal names. For example, if I go by this document on the LegCo website (see page 13, line 4), Joshua Wong is actually called "Wong Chi-fung". But we don't use that - we use the common name used in English language sources. Over here, I see a lot of mentions for "Raymond Chan". As such, the article should stay where it is. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:41, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I had a look at Singaporean media and it tends to refer to him as either "Raymond Chan Chi-chuen" or "Raymond Chan". --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:46, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Based on a look at sources, reliable sources tend to refer to the article subject by this name. This also provides natural disambiguation with the only other person who goes by "Raymond Chan" on Wikipedia. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 16:05, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Chan Chi-chuen → Chan Chi-chuen – (1) His official name is Chan Chi-chuen without the English name as shown in [1]. (2) We seldom use the "English name + Chinese family name + Chinese given name" format but usually either go with "English name + Chinese family name" such as Donald Tsang or simply "Chinese family name + Chinese given name" such as Leung Chun-ying or Hui Chi-fung. Lmmnhn (talk) 10:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Jenks24 (talk) 06:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• This was requested at WP:RM/TR but as a quick perusal of this talk page will show, it is far from uncontroversial. Pinging Lmmnhn so they are aware a discussion has been opened in their name. Jenks24 (talk) 06:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Straits Times uses "Raymond". So do Harbour Times, The Standard and others. The proposed title is very seldom used, i.e. only one this year uses it. The government source should not be the only source for change. Let's assume that the subject of the article himself uses "Ray" or "Raymond". The proposer has been against the current name for very similar reasons, especially in the past. --George Ho (talk) 16:40, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.