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#indiewebcamp 2013-08-21

2013-08-21 UTC
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+183) "add xkcd and strehle.de article"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
!tell barnabywalters yeah I'm using the twitter shim thing (or at least a hacky version of it)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@lynnebaer
MT @jddunn: Until [FOSS/Indieweb] foreground how normal humans interact w tech, won't lure enough people away from Facebook et al to matter.
(twitter.com/_/status/369994175703703552)
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christopheducamp.com
created /Google+-fr (+3699) "[fr:first draft translation]"
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christopheducamp.com
edited /Google+-fr (-6) "[fr: /* Pourquoi */ grammaire]"
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@xtof_fr
Pourquoi #POSSE ...r vers #Google+ ? #indieweb #seo http://xtof.me/b/t/1AVz4
(twitter.com/_/status/370065079057653760)
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Loqi
Jihaisse: barnabywalters left you a message on 8/20 at 8:34am: I updated web action toolbelt to work with new twitter.com markup, haven’t looked at like buttons yet. thanks for the heads-up!
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Jihaisse
tell barnabywalters thanks for the update
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Jihaisse
hum....
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Jihaisse
!tell barnabywalters thanks for the update
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Jihaisse
thans Loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
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Loqi
[@tistre] @bastianallgeier Thanks! I’ve been watching #indieweb for a while now &amp
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Loqi
wanted to link to the fantastic stuff others have written/built :-) (http://twtr.io/bi_5LGQTj0)
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Loqi
barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 9 hours, 52 minutes ago: yeah I'm using the twitter shim thing (or at least a hacky version of it)
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Loqi
barnabywalters: Jihaisse left you a message 1 hour, 33 minutes ago: thanks for the update
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@tobiastom
In other news, if some designer wants to contribute a better design for http://pavatar.com I think @jeena wouldn't mind. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/370127084020322304)
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@tobiastom
@fhemberger Weil im imaginären #indieweb jeder eine Webseite hat. Bei a@gmail.com hast Du halt keinen Einfluss auf http://t.co/X46soaWOa2.
(twitter.com/_/status/370129643783073792)
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@tobiastom
I start to believe the web is not ready for the #indieweb. Everybody seems to hope that someone else will solve all the problems.
(twitter.com/_/status/370163501756874752)
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@helloanselm
@tobiastom have some but never did more than thinking about it. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/370166310514458624)
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barnabywalters
can’t figure out what that thread’s intention is
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@_aeroseo_
Pourquoi « POSSE »r vers Google + ? (#indieweb ##SEO) (xtof - Premiers pas sur Wordpress) http://labs.ebuzzing.fr/info?id=404186494
(twitter.com/_/status/370192516886179840)
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@hugoroyd
@BarnabyWalters @ar i'm curious how you get suggestions from ddg.gg (just testing the comments and indieauth)
(twitter.com/_/status/370208860797030400)
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: I’m venturing into the world of IRC servers and bots — any suggestions of useful resources?
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@hugoroyd
@BarnabyWalters OK. BTW Taproot looks amazing, well done! but what's the indieauth for? I can auth but then, what can i do?
(twitter.com/_/status/370210343252799488)
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: if you use the zenircbot framework then you will be able to add stuff to Loqi :) http://zenircbot.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
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aaronpk
it's a good framework, written in node.js but you can write services in any language since it passes all the messages through redis
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Loqi
PASSES ALL THE MESSAGES http://loqi.me/7q0
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barnabywalters
cool! I’ve been using it as a way to learn more Go
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barnabywalters
the bot in #bw-bot-test is my first semi-useful one
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aaronpk
ah! interesting
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aaronpk
you could definitely write services for zenircbot in Go
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barnabywalters
say a URL and it’ll tell you if it’s up or not
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barnabywalters
I’ll check out how to do that
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aaronpk
most of loqi's logic is a PHP service for zenircbot
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aaronpk
basically the IRC process sits connected to the server and sends incoming lines to a redis pubsub channel
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aaronpk
and if you want to make the bot say something in IRC, you send a message over a different redis channel
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aaronpk
it decouples the IRC process from whatever you're actually trying to do, making it way easier to develop and change stuff, and add new functionality
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barnabywalters
cool _ I imagine you can hook up the same logic to different protocols then too?
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aaronpk
like things other than IRC?
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aaronpk
yeah you totally could. that's something i haven't done much with yet, but would definitely be possible
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barnabywalters
I did look at hubot but decided I didn’t want to learn coffeescript
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aaronpk
yeah frameworks that force you to learn a specific language are silly
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@BarnabyWalters
@hugoroyd thanks! Currently indieauth login is just for me to post stuff, in the future I’ll use it to implement p… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RdFtc/
(twitter.com/_/status/370212102608551936)
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@hugoroyd
@BarnabyWalters but that private content use of indieauth is a very, very good idea.
(twitter.com/_/status/370218057051803648)
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caseorganic.com
edited /site-deaths (+234) "/* 2013 */ Added Alice.com shutdown"
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@0DC6E394
@meganberry @RebelMouse There it is.. the one feature missing to a great storytelling! webmention would be great to include #indieweb ideas
(twitter.com/_/status/370244619071934464)
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rknLA
good morning indieweb!
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wardn
morning!
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pdurbin
josephg: hi
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neuro`
Evening
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josephg
boom, released sharejs's new REST api
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tantek.com
edited /site-deaths (+118) "was alice.com a content host of any kind? or just a random service shutting down?"
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rknLA
josephg: link?
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@fdevillamil
@McCob non, c'est pour éviter un duplicate post quand le tweet est court. Cf. http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter (fv.gs ueBYg3)
(twitter.com/_/status/370285852381159424)
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@fdevillamil
A way to explain #indiewebcamp: build your home on the Internet first, then go out and meet other people. (fv.gs T0i606)
(twitter.com/_/status/370290306568429568)
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@pivwan
RT @fdevillamil: A way to explain #indiewebcamp: build your home on the Internet first, then go out and meet other people. (fv.gs T0i606)
(twitter.com/_/status/370291957685563392)
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josephg
.... aaand now I'm writing a blog post about the identity stuff we were talking about at the drinks
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josephg
I'm now annoyed that I can't ping people in my post about them, and do that linkback stuff we were talking about
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@_Ayudos
Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films
(twitter.com/_/status/370314846408957952)
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@FilmCrowdfunder
RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a…
(twitter.com/_/status/370317371124490240)
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josephg
... stupid SSH freezing, and control codes including pressing enter
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josephg
https://josephg.com/blog/identity-crisis-on-the-we <-- thoughts about identity on the web after our chat on monday night
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josephg
I'm still not entirely convinced by the identity-as-URL idea.
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aaronpk
josephg: care to post on indienews? http://news.indiewebcamp.com/submit
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josephg
Its not my best writing, but its an interesting problem
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bret
cool josephg
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bret
reading now
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bret
dig the minimal design btw
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barnabywalters_
josephg: just read the article — thanks for writing that up for those of use who couldn’t be there
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barnabywalters_
“who are we making software for” is an easy question, not a hard one. make software for yourself which you use daily and rely on, instead of targeting some other demographic
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bret
I like the sound of key kitten
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bret
I'm getting distracted by a tangent
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barnabywalters_
it’s the granny problem
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bret
what is the crossover with webfinger/fist?
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barnabywalters_
if I make software for my granny, am I ever going to rely on it? unlikely
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bret
hopefully she could use the software, at some level, that you make for yourself?
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barnabywalters_
if I make software which solves my own problems in a useful way, might others find it useful? much more likely
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aaronpk
i mean yea i have a higher tolerance for my own stupidly designed interfaces than my granny would, but at some point i'm going to get frustrated by inefficiencies in my interface and make it better for me, which then makes it better for everyone
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barnabywalters_
I actually kinda take offence at “URLs are a fun idea”. no, they’re the foundations of the web
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aaronpk
come to think of it...
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aaronpk
URLs == web
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aaronpk
email addresses != web
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barnabywalters_
and (no longer directed at josephg’s article, just ranting in general) I’m getting sick of insulting the general public’s intelligence by saying people don’t understand URLs
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aaronpk
email addresses are internet identifiers, not web identifiers, by definition
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barnabywalters_
do people “understand” email addresses any more or less than URLs?
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barnabywalters_
email: if I send a message to an email address, it’ll go to that person
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barnabywalters_
urls: if I type it in the address bar, I’ll see a website
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josephg
bret: thanks
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aaronpk
one argument for email addresses as identifiers is an analogy to tribal organization of people
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aaronpk
real names like "first name of city"
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barnabywalters_
btw aaronpk — I just upgraded my irc bot to show me PHP method signatures crawled from the php.net site
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josephg
well, this is a bit of a tangent, but my mum doesn't know what a url is
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josephg
my dad googles by typing 'google' into the gmail address bar, then clicking the first search result (which is google.com)
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josephg
then he types his search result in there...
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josephg
but leaving that aside, even if the answer is "Make software for yourself", bootstrapping identity using email still makes sense
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josephg
... its much closer to what people are using, and we all already have email addresses
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wardn
phone numbers made sense for a long time... now I only use them to identify someone new while I type the name I'll remember them by in my phone book
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wardn
I don't even know my wife's phone number
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josephg
... there's also another unmentioned issue I have with hcard, which is that its html based instead of json based
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josephg
and I hate parsing
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barnabywalters_
josephg: thankfully, other people already took care of that http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
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josephg
today, if I want to put aaronpk's avatar image on my website, its still easier using gravatar rather than something linked on an hcard
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barnabywalters_
that is a valid criticism
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josephg
.. yeah, i could run someone's crazy script, or I could just img src=<generated URL>.
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barnabywalters_
well, we already have something close to that
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josephg
do we?
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barnabywalters_
e.g. to transform waterpigs.co.uk into a photo URL, just append /favicon.ico
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josephg
ha, true
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josephg
.... though the image isn't exactly ideal
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josephg
(they're usually kinda small)
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barnabywalters_
that’s a problem which is easily solved
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aaronpk
josephg: there are many many arguments for html as the API instead of JSON data. also most of us don't actually parse the HTML microformats each time, we run it through a parser and deal with the resulting JSON in our code
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@tombrossman
@stevestreeting have you tried web sign-in with your own domain? http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain I'm going to try to set it up this week.
(twitter.com/_/status/370233238364901376)
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barnabywalters_
aaronpk: I really think we need to start clarifying how we talk about mf2 “JSON∏
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aaronpk
agreed
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barnabywalters_
because typically we’re not actually talking about JSON as an exchange format
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aaronpk
we're all pretty much using JSON APIs, it's just that we're passing around HTML
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barnabywalters_
but nested maps and lists
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barnabywalters_
we’re not using the N part of mf2 JSON for any cross-site data transfer
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barnabywalters_
or even within a parser. it’s not the serialisation which is a big deal about the standard mf2 structure, it’s the structure
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aaronpk
it was actually the fact that microformats2 has a canonical JSON representation that finally got me to the tipping point of marking everything up with mf2
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josephg
+1 to all of that
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barnabywalters_
not even a JSON representation — a standard structure
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aaronpk
yeah that's a better way to put it
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aaronpk
although i've only ever dealt with it after serializing it to JSON
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barnabywalters_
really, I see the use of JSON in mf2 documentation as a superfluous buzzword
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barnabywalters_
aaronpk: sure, but you could have used yaml or python pickle or whatever
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barnabywalters_
but we don’t say “mf2, now with a standard python pickle representation!”
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aaronpk
ok yea actually you're right because I don't even parse JSON myself, PHP or Ruby de-serializes the JSON to native hashes and arrays
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aaronpk
so really I take HTML and end up with native language objects, and I don't care what happened in the middle
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barnabywalters_
aaronpk: yes. that is the big deal
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josephg
Idk, I just feel like JSON is the canonical representation of machine-readable data on the web
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barnabywalters_
JSON is a convenient buzzword which i personally think leads to confusion
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aaronpk
josephg: and the same was said about XML 10 years ago
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barnabywalters_
in this context
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aaronpk
and we all know how that ended
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josephg
aaronpk: HTML is much closer to XML than JSON is
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aaronpk
doesn't matter. everybody thought XML was the way of the future. every API should speak XML.
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josephg
referencing XML is a strawman here - it died because it was hard to parse & use, both problems JSON solves
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aaronpk
and then we have things like XMLRPC and SOAP interfaces
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josephg
shudders
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josephg
but its not like anyone's suggesting using xml, xmlrpc or soap
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josephg
... its just, if we're using hcard, I want to be able to read someone's hcard easily
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aaronpk
i'm just saying that JSON is the current hotness, and in 10 years something else will probably replace JSON
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josephg
and not using a 3rd party web service
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josephg
well, something else might replace html too
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aaronpk
not likely. HTML has stuck around since the beginning of the web
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barnabywalters_
josephg: which is why we wrote the aforementioned parsers
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barnabywalters_
and are building more tools to make consuming mf2 data easier and easier
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aaronpk
JSON isn't really part of the Web, it's part of the Internet. same way email isn't part of the Web
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josephg
Q: Do you honestly think JSON will go the way of XML in a few years?
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barnabywalters_
that’s the wrong question
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aaronpk
A: Not 100% sure, but I think there is a strong possibility
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aaronpk
also yea it's the wrong question
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josephg
If the argument against having a standard JSON representation is that it might die some day, then its relevant
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josephg
but I don't think that argument is particularly relevant
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barnabywalters_
josephg: that is a small part of the argument
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josephg
Agreed.
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aaronpk
no barnabywalters clarified that, it's not the JSON that's important, it's the standard structure
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wardn
that's my issue with html... the notion of "standard"
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barnabywalters_
ftr, I believe aaronpk was referring to the standard structure of parsed mf2 data
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aaronpk
josephg: I appreciate the thoughts/criticism, but fair warning: you're not likely to get any sympathy for anything besides HTML here. frankly HTML is the reason that we've all made so much progress so quickly with things like distributed comments
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josephg
So, I don't really care about JSON in particular, I just want to be able to consume someone's hCard easily.
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josephg
thats the problem I care about the most
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aaronpk
josephg: that I can agree with
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barnabywalters_
okay, that is a much more actionable statement :)
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josephg
Great :)
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barnabywalters_
so what are the walls you’re running up against?
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josephg
So, I want to solve the problem of enter identity -> recieve encryption keys
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josephg
thats what I want to do with keykitten
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barnabywalters_
ah, this is something I‘ve brainstormed and researched a little
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josephg
I was intending to build it on top of email addresses - and I'm still not convinced that thats a bad idea
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josephg
great :)
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barnabywalters_
so you want to go from url -> PGP key?
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josephg
... sure!
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josephg
and the simplest way is probably to just have your pgp key linked from the hcard
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barnabywalters_
I believe it’s already in there
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josephg
:) cool.
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barnabywalters_
I believe there’s also a rel value for that
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barnabywalters_
which would reduce the need for parsing mf
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josephg
<link rel="pgpkey" type="application/pgp-keys" href="..." />
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barnabywalters_
that’s the one
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barnabywalters_
so for best of both worlds, <div class="h-card"><a href="" rel="pgpkey" class="u=key"></a></div>
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barnabywalters_
adds that markup to his homepage
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josephg
I don't know enough about <link rel= > - would a parser look for < rel=> or <link rel=>?
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barnabywalters_
josephg: okay, added to my personal site, both forms appear here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2F
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barnabywalters_
aaronpk: any chance you could set pin13 up to resolve relative URLs?
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barnabywalters_
or were we still having problems with that annoying library?
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aaronpk
i think still having problems with the library
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barnabywalters_
bah. I’ll write a replacement tomorrow
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josephg
adds that markup to his site too
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barnabywalters_
good conversations, thanks people. I’m off for the night. bye!
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bret
Solving problems for email + encryption is fine, its just a different set of problems than what most people are working on here. I'm sure their is room for both :) Although you may not get much sympathy from tantek if you are working on email stuffs
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bret
The primary concern here is own your data.
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bret
So, that means, start posting copies of your data into silos referencing back to the real copy on your own turf
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bret
Also, finding common ways to talk to people outside of silos channels
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bret
Owning your data is difficult with email