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#indiewebcamp 2013-08-21

2013-08-21 UTC
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aaronparecki.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+183) "add xkcd and strehle.de article" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell barnabywalters yeah I'm using the twitter shim thing (or at least a hacky version of it)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@lynnebaer MT @jddunn: Until [FOSS/Indieweb] foreground how normal humans interact w tech, won't lure enough people away from Facebook et al to matter. (twitter.com/_/status/369994175703703552)
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christopheducamp.com created /Google+-fr (+3699) "[fr:first draft translation]" (view diff)
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christopheducamp.com edited /Google+-fr (-6) "[fr: /* Pourquoi */ grammaire]" (view diff)
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@Richardbishop RT @WIRED: Meet the hackers who want to jailbreak the internet http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/08/indie-web/?mbid=social10894254 #IndieWebCamp (twitter.com/_/status/370059966679646208)
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@xtof_fr Pourquoi #POSSE ...r vers #Google+ ? #indieweb #seo http://xtof.me/b/t/1AVz4 (twitter.com/_/status/370065079057653760)
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@AnserGIS RT @WIRED: Meet the hackers who want to jailbreak the internet http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/08/indie-web/?mbid=social10894254 #IndieWebCamp (twitter.com/_/status/370083982685110272)
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Jihaisse hello
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Loqi Jihaisse: barnabywalters left you a message on 8/20 at 8:34am: I updated web action toolbelt to work with new twitter.com markup, haven’t looked at like buttons yet. thanks for the heads-up!
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Jihaisse tell barnabywalters thanks for the update
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Jihaisse hum....
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Jihaisse !tell barnabywalters thanks for the update
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Jihaisse thans Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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Loqi [@tistre] @bastianallgeier Thanks! I’ve been watching #indieweb for a while now &amp
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Loqi wanted to link to the fantastic stuff others have written/built :-) (http://twtr.io/bi_5LGQTj0)
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aral Beware of geeks bearing gifts. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/beware-of-geeks-bearing-gifts/
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 9 hours, 52 minutes ago: yeah I'm using the twitter shim thing (or at least a hacky version of it)
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Loqi barnabywalters: Jihaisse left you a message 1 hour, 33 minutes ago: thanks for the update
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@tobiastom In other news, if some designer wants to contribute a better design for http://pavatar.com I think @jeena wouldn't mind. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/370127084020322304)
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@tobiastom @fhemberger Weil im imaginären #indieweb jeder eine Webseite hat. Bei a@gmail.com hast Du halt keinen Einfluss auf http://t.co/X46soaWOa2. (twitter.com/_/status/370129643783073792)
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@CraigExposed Meet the hackers who want to jailbreak the internet, eliminating vendor lock-in #indieweb #openid #camlistore http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/08/indie-web/?utm_content=buffer5faac&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer (twitter.com/_/status/370131423505956864)
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@jimimimi The First Federated #Indieweb Comment Thread http://tantek.com/2013/113/b1/first-federated-indieweb-comment-thread (twitter.com/_/status/370157535820410880)
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@0DC6E394 RT @jimimimi: The First Federated #Indieweb Comment Thread http://tantek.com/2013/113/b1/first-federated-indieweb-comment-thread (twitter.com/_/status/370161025686859776)
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@tobiastom I start to believe the web is not ready for the #indieweb. Everybody seems to hope that someone else will solve all the problems. (twitter.com/_/status/370163501756874752)
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@helloanselm @tobiastom have some but never did more than thinking about it. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/370166310514458624)
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barnabywalters can’t figure out what that thread’s intention is
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@paulrobertlloyd @getkirby Are you coming to @dconstruct / IndieWebCamp UK? (twitter.com/_/status/370176717253779456)
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@_aeroseo_ Pourquoi « POSSE »r vers Google + ? (#indieweb ##SEO) (xtof - Premiers pas sur Wordpress) http://labs.ebuzzing.fr/info?id=404186494 (twitter.com/_/status/370192516886179840)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+117) (view diff)
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@hugoroyd @BarnabyWalters @ar i'm curious how you get suggestions from ddg.gg (just testing the comments and indieauth) (twitter.com/_/status/370208860797030400)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I’m venturing into the world of IRC servers and bots — any suggestions of useful resources?
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@hugoroyd @BarnabyWalters OK. BTW Taproot looks amazing, well done! but what's the indieauth for? I can auth but then, what can i do? (twitter.com/_/status/370210343252799488)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: if you use the zenircbot framework then you will be able to add stuff to Loqi :) http://zenircbot.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
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aaronpk it's a good framework, written in node.js but you can write services in any language since it passes all the messages through redis
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Loqi PASSES ALL THE MESSAGES http://loqi.me/7q0
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barnabywalters cool! I’ve been using it as a way to learn more Go
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barnabywalters the bot in #bw-bot-test is my first semi-useful one
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aaronpk ah! interesting
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aaronpk you could definitely write services for zenircbot in Go
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barnabywalters say a URL and it’ll tell you if it’s up or not
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barnabywalters I’ll check out how to do that
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aaronpk most of loqi's logic is a PHP service for zenircbot
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aaronpk basically the IRC process sits connected to the server and sends incoming lines to a redis pubsub channel
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aaronpk and if you want to make the bot say something in IRC, you send a message over a different redis channel
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aaronpk it decouples the IRC process from whatever you're actually trying to do, making it way easier to develop and change stuff, and add new functionality
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barnabywalters cool _ I imagine you can hook up the same logic to different protocols then too?
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aaronpk like things other than IRC?
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aaronpk yeah you totally could. that's something i haven't done much with yet, but would definitely be possible
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barnabywalters I did look at hubot but decided I didn’t want to learn coffeescript
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aaronpk yeah frameworks that force you to learn a specific language are silly
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@BarnabyWalters @hugoroyd thanks! Currently indieauth login is just for me to post stuff, in the future I’ll use it to implement p… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RdFtc/ (twitter.com/_/status/370212102608551936)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RdFtc/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To (pingback)
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@hugoroyd @BarnabyWalters but that private content use of indieauth is a very, very good idea. (twitter.com/_/status/370218057051803648)
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caseorganic.com edited /site-deaths (+234) "/* 2013 */ Added Alice.com shutdown" (view diff)
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@0DC6E394 @meganberry @RebelMouse There it is.. the one feature missing to a great storytelling! webmention would be great to include #indieweb ideas (twitter.com/_/status/370244619071934464)
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rknLA good morning indieweb!
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wardn morning!
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josephg hi!
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pdurbin josephg: hi
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neuro` Evening
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josephg boom, released sharejs's new REST api
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+118) "was alice.com a content host of any kind? or just a random service shutting down?" (view diff)
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rknLA josephg: link?
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@fdevillamil @McCob non, c'est pour éviter un duplicate post quand le tweet est court. Cf. http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter (fv.gs ueBYg3) (twitter.com/_/status/370285852381159424)
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@fdevillamil A way to explain #indiewebcamp: build your home on the Internet first, then go out and meet other people. (fv.gs T0i606) (twitter.com/_/status/370290306568429568)
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@pivwan RT @fdevillamil: A way to explain #indiewebcamp: build your home on the Internet first, then go out and meet other people. (fv.gs T0i606) (twitter.com/_/status/370291957685563392)
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josephg rknLA: http://github.com/share/ShareJS/wiki/REST-API
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rknLA neat
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josephg .... aaand now I'm writing a blog post about the identity stuff we were talking about at the drinks
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josephg I'm now annoyed that I can't ping people in my post about them, and do that linkback stuff we were talking about
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370314846408957952)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a… (twitter.com/_/status/370317371124490240)
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josephg `.~.
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josephg ... stupid SSH freezing, and control codes including pressing enter
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josephg https://josephg.com/blog/identity-crisis-on-the-we <-- thoughts about identity on the web after our chat on monday night
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josephg tldr
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josephg I'm still not entirely convinced by the identity-as-URL idea.
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aaronpk josephg: care to post on indienews? http://news.indiewebcamp.com/submit
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josephg sure
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aaronpk sweet
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josephg Its not my best writing, but its an interesting problem
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bret cool josephg
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bret reading now
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bret dig the minimal design btw
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barnabywalters_ josephg: just read the article — thanks for writing that up for those of use who couldn’t be there
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barnabywalters_ “who are we making software for” is an easy question, not a hard one. make software for yourself which you use daily and rely on, instead of targeting some other demographic
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bret I like the sound of key kitten
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bret I'm getting distracted by a tangent
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barnabywalters_ it’s the granny problem
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bret what is the crossover with webfinger/fist?
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barnabywalters_ if I make software for my granny, am I ever going to rely on it? unlikely
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bret hopefully she could use the software, at some level, that you make for yourself?
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barnabywalters_ if I make software which solves my own problems in a useful way, might others find it useful? much more likely
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aaronpk i mean yea i have a higher tolerance for my own stupidly designed interfaces than my granny would, but at some point i'm going to get frustrated by inefficiencies in my interface and make it better for me, which then makes it better for everyone
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barnabywalters_ I actually kinda take offence at “URLs are a fun idea”. no, they’re the foundations of the web
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aaronpk come to think of it...
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aaronpk URLs == web
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aaronpk email addresses != web
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barnabywalters_ and (no longer directed at josephg’s article, just ranting in general) I’m getting sick of insulting the general public’s intelligence by saying people don’t understand URLs
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aaronpk email addresses are internet identifiers, not web identifiers, by definition
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barnabywalters_ do people “understand” email addresses any more or less than URLs?
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barnabywalters_ email: if I send a message to an email address, it’ll go to that person
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barnabywalters_ urls: if I type it in the address bar, I’ll see a website
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josephg bret: thanks
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aaronpk one argument for email addresses as identifiers is an analogy to tribal organization of people
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aaronpk real names like "first name of city"
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barnabywalters_ btw aaronpk — I just upgraded my irc bot to show me PHP method signatures crawled from the php.net site
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josephg well, this is a bit of a tangent, but my mum doesn't know what a url is
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josephg my dad googles by typing 'google' into the gmail address bar, then clicking the first search result (which is google.com)
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josephg then he types his search result in there...
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josephg but leaving that aside, even if the answer is "Make software for yourself", bootstrapping identity using email still makes sense
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josephg ... its much closer to what people are using, and we all already have email addresses
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wardn phone numbers made sense for a long time... now I only use them to identify someone new while I type the name I'll remember them by in my phone book
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wardn I don't even know my wife's phone number
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josephg ... there's also another unmentioned issue I have with hcard, which is that its html based instead of json based
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josephg and I hate parsing
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barnabywalters_ josephg: thankfully, other people already took care of that http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
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josephg today, if I want to put aaronpk's avatar image on my website, its still easier using gravatar rather than something linked on an hcard
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barnabywalters_ that is a valid criticism
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josephg .. yeah, i could run someone's crazy script, or I could just img src=<generated URL>.
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barnabywalters_ well, we already have something close to that
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josephg do we?
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barnabywalters_ e.g. to transform waterpigs.co.uk into a photo URL, just append /favicon.ico
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josephg ha, true
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josephg .... though the image isn't exactly ideal
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josephg (they're usually kinda small)
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barnabywalters_ that’s a problem which is easily solved
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aaronpk josephg: there are many many arguments for html as the API instead of JSON data. also most of us don't actually parse the HTML microformats each time, we run it through a parser and deal with the resulting JSON in our code
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@tombrossman @stevestreeting have you tried web sign-in with your own domain? http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain I'm going to try to set it up this week. (twitter.com/_/status/370233238364901376)
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barnabywalters_ aaronpk: I really think we need to start clarifying how we talk about mf2 “JSON∏
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barnabywalters_ ”
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aaronpk agreed
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barnabywalters_ because typically we’re not actually talking about JSON as an exchange format
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aaronpk we're all pretty much using JSON APIs, it's just that we're passing around HTML
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barnabywalters_ but nested maps and lists
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barnabywalters_ we’re not using the N part of mf2 JSON for any cross-site data transfer
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barnabywalters_ or even within a parser. it’s not the serialisation which is a big deal about the standard mf2 structure, it’s the structure
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aaronpk it was actually the fact that microformats2 has a canonical JSON representation that finally got me to the tipping point of marking everything up with mf2
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josephg +1 to all of that
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barnabywalters_ not even a JSON representation — a standard structure
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aaronpk yeah that's a better way to put it
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aaronpk although i've only ever dealt with it after serializing it to JSON
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barnabywalters_ really, I see the use of JSON in mf2 documentation as a superfluous buzzword
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barnabywalters_ aaronpk: sure, but you could have used yaml or python pickle or whatever
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barnabywalters_ but we don’t say “mf2, now with a standard python pickle representation!”
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aaronpk ok yea actually you're right because I don't even parse JSON myself, PHP or Ruby de-serializes the JSON to native hashes and arrays
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aaronpk so really I take HTML and end up with native language objects, and I don't care what happened in the middle
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barnabywalters_ aaronpk: yes. that is the big deal
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josephg Idk, I just feel like JSON is the canonical representation of machine-readable data on the web
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barnabywalters_ JSON is a convenient buzzword which i personally think leads to confusion
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aaronpk josephg: and the same was said about XML 10 years ago
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barnabywalters_ in this context
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aaronpk and we all know how that ended
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josephg aaronpk: HTML is much closer to XML than JSON is
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aaronpk doesn't matter. everybody thought XML was the way of the future. every API should speak XML.
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josephg referencing XML is a strawman here - it died because it was hard to parse & use, both problems JSON solves
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aaronpk and then we have things like XMLRPC and SOAP interfaces
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josephg shudders
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josephg but its not like anyone's suggesting using xml, xmlrpc or soap
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josephg ... its just, if we're using hcard, I want to be able to read someone's hcard easily
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aaronpk i'm just saying that JSON is the current hotness, and in 10 years something else will probably replace JSON
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josephg and not using a 3rd party web service
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josephg well, something else might replace html too
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aaronpk not likely. HTML has stuck around since the beginning of the web
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barnabywalters_ josephg: which is why we wrote the aforementioned parsers
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barnabywalters_ and are building more tools to make consuming mf2 data easier and easier
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josephg sighs
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aaronpk JSON isn't really part of the Web, it's part of the Internet. same way email isn't part of the Web
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josephg true.
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josephg Q: Do you honestly think JSON will go the way of XML in a few years?
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barnabywalters_ that’s the wrong question
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aaronpk A: Not 100% sure, but I think there is a strong possibility
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barnabywalters_ will HTML?
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aaronpk also yea it's the wrong question
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josephg If the argument against having a standard JSON representation is that it might die some day, then its relevant
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josephg but I don't think that argument is particularly relevant
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barnabywalters_ josephg: that is a small part of the argument
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josephg Agreed.
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aaronpk no barnabywalters clarified that, it's not the JSON that's important, it's the standard structure
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wardn that's my issue with html... the notion of "standard"
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barnabywalters_ ftr, I believe aaronpk was referring to the standard structure of parsed mf2 data
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aaronpk josephg: I appreciate the thoughts/criticism, but fair warning: you're not likely to get any sympathy for anything besides HTML here. frankly HTML is the reason that we've all made so much progress so quickly with things like distributed comments
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aaronpk yes ^
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josephg So, I don't really care about JSON in particular, I just want to be able to consume someone's hCard easily.
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josephg thats the problem I care about the most
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aaronpk josephg: that I can agree with
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barnabywalters_ okay, that is a much more actionable statement :)
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josephg Great :)
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barnabywalters_ so what are the walls you’re running up against?
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josephg So, I want to solve the problem of enter identity -> recieve encryption keys
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josephg thats what I want to do with keykitten
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barnabywalters_ ah, this is something I‘ve brainstormed and researched a little
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josephg I was intending to build it on top of email addresses - and I'm still not convinced that thats a bad idea
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josephg great :)
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barnabywalters_ so you want to go from url -> PGP key?
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josephg ... sure!
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josephg and the simplest way is probably to just have your pgp key linked from the hcard
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barnabywalters_ I believe it’s already in there
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barnabywalters_ yep, http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card -> properties -> u-key
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josephg :) cool.
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barnabywalters_ I believe there’s also a rel value for that
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barnabywalters_ which would reduce the need for parsing mf
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josephg http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000325.html
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josephg <link rel="pgpkey" type="application/pgp-keys" href="..." />
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barnabywalters_ that’s the one
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barnabywalters_ so for best of both worlds, <div class="h-card"><a href="" rel="pgpkey" class="u=key"></a></div>
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barnabywalters_ adds that markup to his homepage
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josephg I don't know enough about <link rel= > - would a parser look for < rel=> or <link rel=>?
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barnabywalters_ josephg: okay, added to my personal site, both forms appear here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2F
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barnabywalters_ aaronpk: any chance you could set pin13 up to resolve relative URLs?
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barnabywalters_ or were we still having problems with that annoying library?
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aaronpk i think still having problems with the library
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josephg nice.
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barnabywalters_ bah. I’ll write a replacement tomorrow
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aaronpk <3
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josephg adds that markup to his site too
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barnabywalters_ good conversations, thanks people. I’m off for the night. bye!
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bret Solving problems for email + encryption is fine, its just a different set of problems than what most people are working on here. I'm sure their is room for both :) Although you may not get much sympathy from tantek if you are working on email stuffs
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bret The primary concern here is own your data.
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bret So, that means, start posting copies of your data into silos referencing back to the real copy on your own turf
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bret Also, finding common ways to talk to people outside of silos channels
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bret Owning your data is difficult with email