Nomination Hearing For Mark Rey and Hilda Gay Legg

S. HRG.
107437
NOMINATION HEARING FOR MARK REY AND

HILDA GAY LEGG
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION
JULY 26, 2001
Printed for the use of the

Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
(
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COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
TOM HARKIN, Iowa, Chairman
PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont RICHARD G. LUGAR, Indiana
KENT CONRAD, North Dakota JESSE HELMS, North Carolina
THOMAS A. DASCHLE, South Dakota THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
MAX BAUCUS, Montana MITCH MCCONNELL, Kentucky
BLANCHE L. LINCOLN, Arkansas PAT ROBERTS, Kansas
ZELL MILLER, Georgia PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
DEBBIE A. STABENOW, Michigan CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming
BEN NELSON, Nebraska WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota TIM HUTCHINSON, Arkansas
PAUL DAVID WELLSTONE, Minnesota MICHEAL D. CRAPO, Idaho
MARK HALVERSON, Staff Director

DAVID L. JOHNSON, Chief Counsel
ROBERT E. STURM, Chief Clerk
KEITH LUSE, Staff Director for the Minority
(II)
CONTENTS
Page
HEARING(S):
Nomination Hearing for Mark Rey and Hilda Gay Legg ..................................... 01
Thursday, July 26, 2001
STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS

Harkin, Hon. Tom, a U.S. Senator from Iowa, Chairman, Committee on
Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry .................................................................. 01
Craig, Hon. Larry, a U.S. Senator from Idaho ...................................................... 05
McConnell, Hon. Mitch, a U.S. Senator from Kentucky ....................................... 02
Murkowski, Hon. Frank H., a U.S. Senator from Alaska .................................... 03
Rogers, Hon. Harold, a U.S. Senator from Kentucky ........................................... 06
WITNESSES
Legg, Hilda Gay of Somerset, Kentucky, to be Administrator, Rural Utilities
Service, United States Department of Agriculture ........................................... 10
Rey, Mark of Canton, Ohio, to be Under Secretary for Natural Resources
and the Environment, United States Department of Agriculture ................... 08
APPENDIX
PREPARED STATEMENTS:
Baucus, Hon. Max ............................................................................................ 42
Bunning, Hon. Jim ........................................................................................... 31
Crapo, Hon. Mike ............................................................................................. 30
McConnell, Hon. Mitch .................................................................................... 32
Legg, Hilda Gay ................................................................................................ 37
Rey, Mark .......................................................................................................... 33
DOCUMENT(S) SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD:
Legg, Hilda Gay, Biography ............................................................................ 60
Rey, Mark, Biography ...................................................................................... 44
Support Letters and Testimonies for the Nomination of Mark Rey ............. 81
Opposition Letters and Testimonies for the Nomination of Mark Rey ........ 85
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Harkin, Hon. Tom ............................................................................................ 102
Baucus, Hon. Max ............................................................................................ 145
Daschle, Hon. Thomas ...................................................................................... 138
Lugar, Hon. Richard G. .................................................................................... 134
(III)
NOMINATION HEARING: MARK REY AND
HILDA GAY LEGG
THURSDAY, JULY 26, 2001
U.S. SENATE,
COMMITTEE AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY,
ON
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:41 a.m., in room
SR328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Tom Harkin,
[Chairman of the Committee], presiding.
Present or submitting a statement: Senators Harkin, Conrad,
Lugar, McConnell, Thomas, Allard, and Crapo.
STATEMENT OF HON. TOM HARKIN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
IOWA, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
The CHAIRMAN. The Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition,
and Forestry will come to order. I apologize to all for being late.
This morning we are considering two nominations for important
positions at the Department of Agriculture. Mr. Mark Rey is nomi-
nated to serve as Under Secretary for Natural Resources and the
Environment, and Hilda Legg is nominated to serve as Adminis-
trator of the Rural Utilities Service.
The committee welcomes you, Mr. Rey and Ms. Legg, and looks
forward to your testimony.
The Under Secretary for Natural Resources and Environment
oversees both the Forest Service and the Natural Resources Con-
servation Service at USDA. This position is one of great respon-
sibility involving both public and private lands. The health and
conservation of forests and agricultural lands is critically important
to all of us. If we do not respect and properly care for the land, we
will impoverish ourselves and future generations, both materially
and spiritually.
The Under Secretary will have a crucial role in developing and
carrying out our Nations policies affecting farm and forest lands.
The Administrator of the Rural Utilities Service also has a very
important responsibility involving the quality of life and economic
progress of rural communities.
From its beginning, the Department of Agriculture has sought to
help enhance the lives of Americans on farms and ranches and in
small towns across our Nation. Since the formation of the Rural
Electrification Administration under President Roosevelt, USDA
has played a key role in helping rural America secure amenities
that are taken for granted in urban areas. Yet even in times of na-
tional prosperity, rural communities still lag behind the rest of the
(1)
2
country. Surely we can do more both in Congress and the Depart-

ment to help close that gap.
I am pleased to welcome our colleagues, Senator Murkowski,
Senator Craig, and Congressman Rogers.
I would also like to recognize and welcome several members of
Mr. Reys family who are here. I will permit him to introduce them
when we call upon Mr. Rey. Again, we are pleased to have all of
you here.
I will turn to the distinguished ranking member, Senator Lugar,
for any opening statement he may have.
Senator LUGAR. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will fore-
go an opening statement. I am looking forward to the introductions
by our colleagues of these distinguished nominees. I appreciate
their willingness to serve. They are able people. For the record, as
the Chairman knows, he and I are given the FBI file. I have exam-
ined those carefully in preparation for the hearing. We look for-
ward to hearing the testimony.
Senator MCCONNELL. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I am also going
to want to say a word about Hilda Legg, who is a friend and con-
stituent of mine, whenever you think that is appropriate.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think now would be the appropriate time,
Senator.
STATEMENT OF HON. MITCH McCONNELL, A U.S. SENATOR
FROM KENTUCKY
Senator MCCONNELL. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to join my
friend and colleague, Hal Rogers, in introducing our constituent,
Hilda Legg, of Somerset, Kentucky. Hilda is an old friend and
former staffer from years ago who has had a truly distinguished ca-
reer and is an outstanding choice by the President for the Rural
Utilities Service.
Hilda is in Washington accompanied by her 16-month-old son,
Dane, and we want to welcome you and him, wherever he may be.
The Rural Utilities Service is an agency dedicated to helping
rural America finance water, electricity, and telecommunications
projects, as well as providing loans and grants for rural distance
learning and telemedicine projects.
The Administrator of RUS must be well versed in the needs of
our rural communities and in the role that rural development
projects play in the overall economy and the well-being of rural
America.
Nobody could be better qualified for this job than Hilda, who
comes to us from the Center for Rural Development, which is really
the brainchild of Congressman Rogers, where she is presently serv-
ing as executive director and CEO. She has also served as past Al-
ternate Federal Co-Chair of the Appalachian Regional Commission.
She has been responsible for the overall management of this cen-
ter that I just referred to that has been a national model for eco-
nomic development in rural areas. Her expertise includes agri-
culture, advanced technology, export assistance, and small business
development.
Hilda is no stranger to the Senate. As I mentioned earlier, she
was confirmed by the Senate as Co-Chair of the Appalachian Re-
gional Commission. As Co-Chair, she worked with the Governors of
3
13 States and with a budget of over $190 million in a position

aimed at job creation, building infrastructure, education and work
force training, and numerous research projects.
She has a long resume, and in the interest of time, I am just
going to hit on the highlights of her career, which, as I would sus-
pect you expect me to say, the highlight of her career was when
she worked for me.
[Laughter.]
The CHAIRMAN. Lets hear from her on that one.
Senator MCCONNELL. From 1985 to 1987. Obviously I am very
proud and pleased to be here to introduce Hilda and to wish her
well in this new position. I am sure she will bring great distinction
to the job and to our State and to the United States.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator McConnell.
The prepared statement of Senator McConnell can be found in
the appendix on page 32.]
Senator Thomas, did you have any statement?
Senator THOMAS. No, sir. I just welcome Mark. I worked with
him, of course, on the committee, and I am very interested in what
Ms. Legg will be doing, as I was manager of the Rural Electric As-
sociation. So I welcome our folks and am very proud to support
them.
The CHAIRMAN. Very good.
Senator Crapo.
Senator CRAPO. I, too, simply welcome both Ms. Legg and Mr.
Rey to the committee today, and I look forward to a prompt and
expeditious treatment of their nominations.
The CHAIRMAN. Very good. Also, for the record, both Senator
Lugar and I have a letter from Senator Bunning that I will make
part of the record. He says, I support your committee in taking up
the nomination of Hilda Legg to be the next Administrator of the
Rural Utilities Service at USDA. The President has made an excel-
lent choice by selecting Hilda, and I hope that you are able to vote
her out of committee soon.
Again, the President has made a fine choice. I wholeheartedly
endorse her nomination, and I look forward to her confirmation by
your committee in the full Senate. Signed by Senator Jim
Bunning.
[The prepared statement of Senator Bunning can be found in the
appendix on page 31.]
The CHAIRMAN. Now I will turn to our distinguished Senators
who are here for the purpose of introduction and support and what-
ever they want to add to these proceedings. I will first recognize
the Senator from Alaska, Senator Murkowski.
STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK H. MURKOWSKI, A U.S. SENATOR
FROM ALASKA
Senator MURKOWSKI. Thank you very much, Senator Harkin, and
let me thank you, Senator Lugar, and the other members for sched-
uling this hearing today. I am going to speak on behalf of the nomi-
nee, Mark Rey, for Under Secretary for Natural Resources and En-
vironment, and I think it is very appropriate that you are able to
expedite this nominee by holding this hearing.
4
I have had the pleasure of working with Mark for a number of

years. He has served the Senate Energy and Natural Resources
Committee as a professional staff member since the 104th Con-
gress, so we have had an opportunity to work together for some
time. He has an extraordinary knowledge of issues, individuals, or-
ganizations involved in the Department of Agriculture Natural Re-
sources and Environment portfolio, which is certainly a significant
responsibility of this committee.
He has handled some of the tough issues, particularly in the Pa-
cific Northwest relative to resource development. He has worked
closely with Senator Craig, who was the subcommittee chairman.
I certainly urge your favorable consideration.
He can be tough. He can be skilledhe is always skilled. He is
not always tough. He is always sensitive and responsive in trying
to work toward a solution.
His experience over the years I think is extraordinary in the
sense of having the balance to come into this position. He has cov-
ered wilderness designations, county payments to improve forest
management. He has worked on issues such as the Quincy Library,
which was an effort to bring about a compromise between the log-
ging and the environmental groups. Senator Craig can perhaps
speak specifically of some of the areas where they have worked to-
gether. Having had the overall responsibility for the functioning of
that particular area of the Energy and Natural Resources Commit-
tee relative to resource development, his departure is certainly a
loss to our committee. It is a loss to the Senate. I am thankful that
he will proceed here on behalf of our country and in a role of serv-
ice.
Let me make a final note to give you some idea of how he is held
by his peers. In 1997, the National Journal developed a list of the
100 most influential men and women in the Federal Government.
Mark Rey was on that list. That gives you some idea of how effec-
tive he is and how knowledgeable he is. I cant think of an individ-
ual who is more qualified for this position, and I am very grateful
that he is willing to serve the Nation in the capacity the President
has nominated him, and I would certainly urge favorably reporting
his nomination. It has been a pleasure working with him.
I would like to add for the record letters of endorsement from the
United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners, the International
Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, the National
Education Association, the National Federation of Federal Employ-
ees. Then we move down to such esteemed organizations as the
Ruffled Grouse Society, Foundation for North American Wild
Sheep, the Bear Trust International, the Campfire Clubs of Amer-
ica, the Safari Club International, the Conservation Forests, the
Cherokee Safari Club. The list goes on and on, and I wont bore you
other than to ask that these be included in the record to give you
some idea of the depth of support of this nominee.
Senator MURKOWSKI. Mark, I wish you well. It has been a pleas-
ure working with you, and we look forward to your continued con-
tribution.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Murkowski.
Senator Craig.
5
STATEMENT OF HON. LARRY CRAIG, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
IDAHO
Senator CRAIG. Well, Mr. Chairman, thank you. It is good to be
back before the committee. I still wish I were on the committee.
[Laughter.]
Senator CRAIG. Especially with the work that you and the Rank-
ing Member, Senator Lugar, are doing now in the shaping of a new
Farm bill. We know how critical that is to our country, and I will
play a role in it, but not an active role of the kind that I would
have, had I been here.
I also join Chairman, now Ranking Member Frank Murkowski in
thanking you for expediting these hearings. I have been involved
with others in encouraging our chairman to move some of these
nominees as quickly as possible. We need them on the ground. We
need them working on behalf of the citizens of our country, and
your choice to have this hearing today for these two individuals is
extremely important.
Frank has well outlined the relationship that he and I have had
with Mark Rey over the last good number of years. I chaired the
Subcommittee on Public Lands and the Forest Service, and over
the course of the last good number of years, Mark and I have held
over 150 hearings on the U.S. Forest Service. Some people have
said we have turned it upside down and shaken it on more than
one occasion, all for the purpose of trying to make it work, and
work better.
In fact, one observer mentioned that it was the first time that
kind of comprehensive overview had been done since the days of
Hubert Humphrey and the crafting of the National Forest Manage-
ment Act.
Throughout all of this time, there is only one clear thing I can
say about Mark Rey. He is without question, in my opinion, the
most knowledgeable person I have ever met on the U.S. Forest
Service, not only in the way it functions or fails to function, but
every law, every regulation that interfaces or fails to interface to
bring about decisions on the ground or ultimate decisions by the
chief here in Washington.
When the Bush administration began to recognize Mark for the
opportunity to serve this country as Under Secretary for Natural
Resources and the Environment, I thought of no better choice than
Mark.
I say that because, while there are those who would criticize
and there will beone of the things that I think is most evident
in the letters that Frank asked be put in the recordand let me
add another one, the National Education Associationwas a broad
cross-section of interests that support Mark Reys nomination. That
says that he has done a lot of things right over the years or he has
gained their respect. Whether they agreed always with him, they
recognized that he will listen to them and he will try to work com-
promise.
One of the things that Mark and I sought to do over the last good
number of yearsand we have worked very closely with Ron
Wyden in doing sowas to stop the conflict that has been going on
out on the public land over the years between many of our users
and the law and environmental groups to see where we could bring
6
balance to policy. In many instances, I think we have been able to

effect that.
Let me give you one example that I am most proud of, and Mark
was really one of the major architects of it, Mr. Chairman. We call
it the Secure Rural Schools and Community Self-Determination
Act. You voted for it last year. It became law, and it began to re-
shape the relationship of communities, school districts, and coun-
ties out in our public land west and timbered land areas of the Na-
tion that once received the receipts of timber sales to fund their
public schools and county roads. There was opposition in the begin-
ning, and in the end it passed with near unanimity.
Ron Wyden and I worked very closely together. Ron Wyden sup-
ports the nomination of Mark Rey, and I understand he has a
statementhe cant be here today; that will be handed out to you
and is actively supporting Mark. Why? Because we worked to-
gether and we found compromise and we brought coalitions to-
gether of the kind that you really have to do to make public policy
work when there are differences of opinion.
Mark has demonstrated that very, very clearly in his ability not
only to work with staff but his vast knowledge of the issue simply
puts him at the head of the line. I think our President has chosen
wisely. This individual will serve you well in all of the capacities
that are necessary within this area of responsibility, from conserva-
tionand we know how critical that is to agriculture and to our
farming community and to our public lands and water quality and
all of the resources that are combined there. For those of us who
live in the public land west and in the public timbered areas of our
country, we know that the relationship we have with those lands
is critical to the economic and the environmental well-being of our
communities, our States, and, of course, all of the resources com-
bined.
Mark has demonstrated that well over the years. I think you
willI trust you will find him favorable, and I am very proud to
be sitting beside the person who I believe will become the next
Under Secretary for Natural Resources and the Environment.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Craig. Again, be-
fore we move to Mr. Rey, I would like to recognize Congressman
Rogers for the purpose of introducing Ms. Legg.
Congressman Rogers, welcome to the committee.
STATEMENT OF HON. HAROLD ROGERS, A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM KENTUCKY
Mr. ROGERS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank
you for expediting this hearing. You do service to your constituents
across the country when you schedule these hearings to, I hope,
confirm these appointees. To the members of the committee, thanks
for listening to us.
I join my home State colleague and my senior Senator in intro-
ducing Hilda Legg to this committee, and I offer you, Mr. Chair-
man, my strongest possible endorsement of her nomination to head
the Rural Utilities Service.
Hilda is a native of the Commonwealth of Kentucky. She spent
nearly her entire professional life in rural economic development,
7
playing a major and successful role in helping one of the countrys

most distressed regions turn the corner toward self-sufficiency.
She has a rich and diverse background. She has been a teacher.
She was a college administrator. She was, of course, Senator Mc-
Connells aide in one of his offices in Kentucky. As we know, she
was the Federal Appalachian development Co-Chairman and has
been a State-based economic development official most of her ca-
reer.
Few people, Mr. Chairman and members, possess this ladys com-
bination of rural development experience and managerial experi-
ence. I think she is ideal for this job.
Seven years ago, Hilda was selected by a national search commit-
tee to become the first director and CEO of a major new Rural De-
velopment Center based in my congressional district, serving a
third of the State of Kentucky, but including all of the hard-hit sec-
tions of Central Appalachia in Kentucky. It was created to be a na-
tional model for rural economic development, and, in fact, it has be-
come just that under her leadership.
This was an enormously tall order that she took on, and we are
forever grateful that she agreed to take it on and, more impor-
tantly, grateful for the great job she did these years in bringing it
from its infancy to almost maturity.
She inherited that enterprise in the midst of the construction of
the building. She quickly moved to accelerate the build-out and the
completion, to hire the entire professional staff, and to implement
the various economic development programs in that center. She
also managed the monumental task of designing and installing
something brand new and unique, even today unlike anything in
the country in a rural setting, and that is a computer and tele-
communications network that now connects most of the 40 counties
in that rural region together so that we can talk, even as we are
talking here, across the vast distances and chasms that separate
the parts of that area. For all of the good that that kind of commu-
nicative capability gives us for the first time in our history, it pales
beside the computer network that has been created that links us
with all of the world and is bringing thousands now of jobs to a
region which has been distressed, dominated by the coal industry
for all these decades, giving us the new jobs of the future. Mr.
Chairman, that center is enabling my part of Kentucky, long dis-
tressed in the Appalachian region, the reputation of being the new
Silicon Holler.
[Laughter.]
Mr. ROGERS. Under Hildas leadership.
The center has become, as we had hoped, a national model for
implementing economic development strategies in a rural setting,
and it can be attributed to Hildas exceptional leadership, manage-
ment, communications, policy development skills, all of which
would be of great use to us in the country as Administrator of the
Rural Utilities Service.
This would be Hildas third term of executive branch service, be-
ginning with her work at the Department of Educations Council on
the Handicapped, then her role as Alternate Federal Co-Chairman
of the Appalachian Regional Commission where she helped manage
perhaps the most effective Federal instrument for spurring eco-
8
nomic growth in severely distressed communities. Clearly, nothing

would please me more, Mr. Chairman and members, than to have
Hilda remain in Kentucky because she is going to be very difficult
for us to replace to continue the effective programs that she has led
these past years, except the only exception to that would be to have
her use those exceptional skills on behalf of the country, and she
is prepared to sacrifice in that regard. Mr. Chairman, reluctantly,
I am, too.
Should this committee and the Senate approve her nomination,
those of us in Kentucky will be secure in the knowledge that she
has helped advance and shape the region, our region and its future,
in ways that cannot be reversed, in my judgment. Hilda Legg is a
strong and energetic manager. She is a genuine rural development
expert and a progressive leader, and I dont think you could find
anybody more qualified to fill this post.
Mr. Chairman, I commend Hilda Legg to you with my full en-
dorsement, and I hope that she meets with your approval. Thank
you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Congressman.
We will now turn to our witnesses.
The CHAIRMAN. Now I would ask both nominees to stand, raise
your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. REY. I do.
Ms. LEGG. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated. We welcome you to the commit-
tee, and I will ask for your statements. First, I have one question
to ask both of you: Do you agree that, if confirmed, you will appear
before any duly constituted committee of Congress if asked to ap-
pear? Mr. Rey.
Mr. REY. I will.
The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Legg.
Ms. LEGG. I will.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both very much, and I would ask you
now for your statements. We will turn first to Mr. Mark Rey, of
Canton, Ohio, who has been nominated for Under Secretary for
Natural Resources and the Environment. Mr. Rey, welcome to the
committee. Your statement will be made a part of the record in its
entirety. Please proceed as you so desire, and if you have some
family members you want to introduce, please do so.
TESTIMONY OF MARK REY, OF CANTON, OHIO, TO BE
UNDER SECRETARY FOR NATURAL RESOURCES AND THE
ENVIRONMENT, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF
AGRICULTURE
Mr. REY. Upon your kind invitation, Mr. Chairman, I would like
to introduced my family here today: my wife, Francesca Rey; my
father, Emmanuel Rey; my mother, Joanne Rey; my daughter,
Sally Rey; and my sister, Lisa Phillips.
The CHAIRMAN. Very good.
Mr. REY. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, being nominated
as Under Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources and the
9
Environment is the greatest honor that I have been accorded in a

long career in the natural resources area. It is also the greatest
challenge I have been asked to meet since arriving in Washington,
DC, almost 26 years ago.
I would like to start by expressing my deepest thanks to Presi-
dent Bush and Secretary Veneman for their confidence and trust
in my ability to fulfill the responsibilities of the office. I would also
like to thank Senator Murkowski and Senator Craig for their en-
couragement and support. Last, I would like to thankexpress my
appreciate to you, Mr. Chairman, and your staff for fairly and
promptly considering my nomination.
I come before you today sincerely convinced that the job of Under
Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources and the Environ-
ment is one of the most vital positions in the Federal Government.
Other offices will undoubtedly make a greater contribution in im-
portant areas such as national security or public health. However,
no other assignment carries a greater trust responsibility to the
American people than the stewardship of our Nations soil, waters,
and forests.
David Ben-Gurion once wrote that, The soil is the source of life
creativity, culture, and real independence. Earlier this century,
Franklin D. Roosevelt spoke that Forests are the lungs of our
land, purifying the air and giving fresh strength to our people.
Still earlier, Samuel Langhorne Clemens wrote that whiskeys for
drinking, but waters for fighting about.
Given the importance of this assignment, I would like to begin
our time together today talking about what you can expect from
me, should you choose to confirm my nomination.
First, if confirmed, I commit to bipartisan collaboration in over-
seeing the stewardship of Americas soil, water, and forest re-
sources. In my years of service to the Senate, I am most proud of
the initiatives to which I have contributed that passed Congress
with overwhelming, bipartisan support. Over the past century, our
greatest gains in securing the enlightened stewardship of our natu-
ral resources have occurred when men and women of both parties
have bridged their differences and found common ground on behalf
of the American people.
Second, I will, if confirmed, continue to respect the special role
reserved for Congress in the Constitution for the development and
implementation of Americas natural resource policies. Having
spent six years working for the Congress, I appreciate firsthand the
importance of congressional oversight and involvement in the de-
velopment and implementation of these matters. My advocacy for
an active congressional role in this area will not change with my
transfer to the executive branch of our Government, should you ap-
prove that transfer. In her own confirmation appearance before this
committee, Secretary Veneman stated that she believed in work-
ing cooperatively with Congress. I strongly share her belief.
Third, I offer you my experience. For over a quarter century, I
have worked with and around the agencies I will oversee should
you elect to confirm my nomination. A good portion of the enthu-
siasm and humility I bring to this task is a reflection of the dedica-
tion and skill of the public servants working in this area that I
10
have come to know over this time. They need attentive critics, but
they have earned my respect, gratitude, support, and affection.
Finally, I offer you an open mind. I consider myself to be a good
and active listener. You wont be hard pressed to find people who
have disagreed with me. But I think most, if not all, of them will
confirm that we disagreed without being disagreeable. In order to
fairly sort out conflicting facts and opinionsand, in this policy
area, everyone is entitled to their own set of eachan Under Sec-
retary should be physically and intellectually accessible to all par-
ties. If you choose to confirm me, I pledge to keep open both my
office door and my thinking processes.
Winston Churchill once wrote that we make a living by what we
get, we make a life by what we give. I come before you today to
respectfully request that you give me another opportunity to serve
the American people. What I have offered about how I would per-
form this service, I have stated not only under oath to you, but be-
fore my family and friends assembled here today.
Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Rey can be found in the appen-
dix on page 33.]
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Rey.
Ms. Legg, welcome to the committee and please proceed with
your statement.
TESTIMONY OF HILDA GAY LEGG OF SOMERSET, KENTUCKY,
TO BE ADMINISTRATOR, RURAL UTILITIES SERVICE,
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Ms. LEGG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I resisted the urge to bring
my 16-month-old toddler in out of respect for you, Senator, and the
committee. But I did bring his photo along.
The CHAIRMAN. There you go. All right.
Ms. LEGG. I would also like to say a thank you of appreciation
to my mother and my father. My mother like millions of Ameri-
cans, an advanced Alzheimers patient, couldnt be here. My father
who is 87, would love to be here, but just was not able to make
the trip. He was the one who taught me around the supper table
at night about Government, and then about public service, as a
member of the Adair County Board of Education for years and
years. I thank them.
Mr. Chairman, Senator Lugar and other distinguished members
of this committee, I am truly humbled and honored to appear be-
fore you as the nominee of President George W. Bush for the Ad-
ministrators position of the Rural Utilities Service.
I am grateful to the President and to Secretary Veneman for
their confidence in my ability to lead this most important agency,
and for the opportunity to continue my lifes work. Serving rural
communities has always been at the center of that work, and it is
an honor to be able to work with such distinguished colleagues at
this level.
I would like to thank Senator McConnell and Congressman Rog-
ers for their remarks today, but also, for the past 20 years, their
advice and their support. I truly value their friendship.
But today is truly the pinnacle of a most rewarding career. One
that I admit I did not have the foresight to plan, but one where
11
opportunity has knocked and I was able to walk through the door.
Its a career where service to residents in rural communities has
always been at the center, a direction that I intend to continue.
Why am I so excited about the opportunity to serve as the Ad-
ministrator of the Rural Utilities Service? Its who I am. I was
raised on that small family farm, where both parents worked out-
side the home. Farming was not our primary income. In fact, it was
supplemental at best. Then for 18 years I was married to a farmer
where agriculture was our primary source of income. I assisted
with that cow/calf operation, those feeder pigs, and the corn and
the hay and the tobacco. Except for just a couple of short stints in
Washington, DC, Ive always lived in rural communities, the larg-
est being 15,000 people.
My professional background, included serving as the alternate
Co-Chairman of the Appalachian Regional Commission where I as-
sisted 13 Governors and their states in economic development.
While serving as Senator McConnells field rep, which as he said,
was the most important part of my career, I worked with local offi-
cials to help secure support from Federal programs, as they en-
deavored very sincerely to grow those communities. For the past
seven years I have focused on economic development in Kentuckys
40 poorest counties, always challenging when trying to stimulate
economic growth and improve the quality of life. Truly, Senators,
I have been where the rubber meets the road in rural economic de-
velopment. I am very, very proud of the successes of the Center for
Rural Development. My formal training in sociology and education
has simply given me the broad perspective of total community de-
velopment and the interrelatedness of the various aspects.
When we talk about infrastructure in our rural communities,
that is truly one of the biggest challenges, not only to insure the
maintenance of water and sewer lines, but also expansions nec-
essary to encourage economic growth and new job creation. Obvi-
ously, utilities always have been, and will continue to be, the con-
duit for development even in this information age, which is, of
course, the newest infrastructure challenge in rural communities.
All these computers, wide-area networks, local-area networks,
video conferences and the connectivity that links rural communities
to the world and brings the resources of the world to those rural
communities, all run on energy. Recently I read a prediction that
the Internet will be responsible for one-half to two-thirds of all the
growth in U.S. electricity demand. All these infrastructures are im-
portant. Workforces simply cannot be development, and new jobs
cannot be created, companies cannot expand, and rural commu-
nities will not be viable places for future generations to live and
raise their families, if the infrastructure is not in place. It is criti-
cal to the quality of life for rural Americans, and I truly cannot
think of a more important challenge and exciting opportunity for
the constituencies that I will be working with, and of which I am
one.
I want my 16-month-old son, Dane, to know that feel of fresh cool
dirt from a plowed field between his toes, and that sweet smell of
freshly-mown hay, and yet, I want him to be able to access the
world, and to have the opportunities to develop his talents in that
environment. It is for his future that I take this challenge so seri-
12
ously, and so gladly devote the coming months and years to this
service, if you so choose to confirm.
Again, I thank you for your consideration. I seek your approval
today so that I can begin this new and challenging endeavor. I will
be glad to answer any questions. Again, thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Legg can be found in the appen-
dix on page 37.]
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for an excellent statement,
Ms. Legg, both of you.
I will try to take about seven minutes per round of questions as
we go through the panel. I will start off with my seven minutes.
Mr. Rey, I must say that at the outset, while I have received a
number of letters in support of your nomination from various and
sundry entities and groups, I must say that I have received some
that are highly questioning. I had one here that was signed by a
number of environmental groups: the Sierra Club, the National En-
vironmental Trust, the U.S. Public Interest Research Group, the
Earth Justice Legal Defense Fund, Defenders of Wildlife, Natural
Resources Defense Council and the Wilderness Society, basically
expressing concern. They did not say they were opposed to your
nomination; they just expressed concern about it. Basically they
say that Mr. Rey has been closely involved with the timber indus-
try and an advocate for their policies for over 20 years with a
lengthy record of positions, and a very specific point of view oppos-
ing environmental protection. As I said, they did not absolutely say
that they were opposed; they just said that they were concerned.
Mr. Rey, why are all these groups so concerned? I do not know
you personally, but would be interested in knowing. I do not know
why these groups are concerned about you? Do you have any view
on that at all?
Mr. REY. Well, Iit would be presumptuous for me to speak on
their behalf, but we have had our differences in the past, particu-
larly when I had a different role as an advocate for the Forest
Products Industry, which I was from the mid 1980s until the mid
1990s. I think though if you ask all of those groups, Mr. Chairman,
one of the things you wont hear is that since I took on a different
role, that of a public servant, that I was unavailable to them, that
I was unwilling to hear their views, that I was insensitive to their
concerns. That doesnt mean that we agree more or less now, but
I do pride myself that I dont think youll find any of those groups
who will be able to tell you that I denied them a meeting, that I
failed to return a phone call, that I didnt listen when they had
something to say.
The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. As I said, they did not say that
they oppose your nomination; they just said that they have grave
concern. That is the word that they used here. I would, as chair-
man, I say, that these groups, if they want to submit statements
or if they want to further develop some thoughts on that, I would
certainly welcome that and I would keep the record open for that
if they wish to do so.
I have a few more questions to ask. In the past, Mr. Rey, you
have promoted fundamental changes to many of the laws that you
will be charged with enforcing, including the National Forest Man-
agement Act, and your actions directly impact the Endangered Spe-
13
cies Act. Will you commit to us to fully uphold these laws as they
are currently enacted and interpreted by the Federal courts?
Mr. REY. Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. If confirmed, I will fully up-
hold the laws as they are written.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Rey, I do not know if we have a dif-
ference on this or not, but I am personally a strong supporter of
the Roadless Area Conservation Rule, because I believe it contains
a balanced approach to the use and conservation of forests. I was
disturbed when the Forest Service decided to take action to under-
mine the Roadless Area Conservation Rule. Chairman Bingaman
just stated, and I quote, The Forest Service will take additional
time to provide for public comment regarding the Roadless Area
Conservation Rule. While I am not opposed to additional public
comment, I am opposed to actions to undo or undermine the rule.
Although the administration has continually promised to uphold
the roadless rule, todays announcement appears to be revisiting
fundamental questions regarding the necessity of the rule. I am
still quoting from Senator Bingaman. The American public will be
closely watching what steps the administration takes in the upcom-
ing months regarding this rule. No rule can perfectly satisfy every-
one, but this one has struck a chord with the American people. The
Forest Service already has an $8.4 billion maintenance backlog on
its existing 386,000 mile road system. In the absence of the rule,
plans to build about 1,160 miles of new roads into protected areas
would simply add to the Forest Service backlog. End quote. That
is from Senator Bingaman.
Mr. Rey, how would you respond to Chairman Bingamans state-
ment?
Mr. REY. Mr. Chairman, I believe that you and I are in agree-
ment on the need to protect roadless values. The rule that Senator
Bingaman was referring to has, however, been enjoined by a Fed-
eral District Court. The Court enjoined the rule because a single
national rulemaking, disposing of all of the roadless areas in the
153 National Forests, could not, in the Courts view, provide suffi-
cient site-specific information to meet the administrations obliga-
tions under the National Environmental Policy Act. That Court de-
cision is under appeal to the Ninth Circuit now, and well have to
see what the Courts do with it.
But one way or another, Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to
work with you to protect roadless values. Any disagreement we
might have wont be over that; it will be over the best way that we
get to that point, if in fact we disagree at all.
The CHAIRMAN. My staff informs me it is her information that
the administration is not appealing this case.
Mr. REY. The administration has elected not to appeal this case,
but the intervenors have, so the Ninth Circuit has before it all of
the arguments available to defend the current rule. Unfortunately,
or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, it was the Ninth
Circuit who held that a previous effort to address this issue
through a single national exercise, could not reach the responsibil-
ities of the Environmental Protection Actor the Environmental
PolicyNational Environmental Policy Act.
The CHAIRMAN. The administration is not appealing this deci-
sion?
14
Mr. REY. The administration is not appealing the decision, but

the Ninth Circuit will render a decision nevertheless, and we will
adhere to what the Ninth Circuit directs us to do.
The CHAIRMAN. Can we assume that since the administration is
not appealing the decision, that they are in favor of overturning the
rule?
Mr. REY. I dont think thats the assumption here. I think that
the administration, looking at what the judge said, decided that a
new effort to protect roadless values in a way that would meet the
District Courts objections was a better way to assure the protec-
tion of roadless values more quickly. The administration has deter-
mined that in the interim, any activity that occurs in roadless area,
if there are any, would have to be approved by the chief of the For-
est Service.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Rey.
Senator Lugar.
Senator LUGAR. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Rey, during our conversation earlier this week, I was im-
pressed with the fact that you have an excellent grasp of the Forest
Service organization and how large that organization is. One of the
points that you made was that a number of the Forest Service per-
sons are not of advanced age, but they are getting older, that the
problem of recruitment of qualified people may well depend upon
pay, working conditions, other aspects that are competitive with
other alternative occupations.
Would you illuminate that further for the benefit of the commit-
tee? As you take a look at this large organization, I think you said
there are 38,000 people, and this is a part of your purview as
Under Secretary, a huge organization of people, what thoughts do
you have about bringing new vigor, new recruits, the kinds of in-
centives that are required?
Mr. REY. Actually, the observation I made when we met applies
equally to both the Forest Service and the Natural Resources Con-
servation Service, where in both organizations, the demographics of
the employee base suggests that were going to lose through retire-
ment a considerable number of skilled employees in the relatively
near future. One of my greatest challenges is going to be working
with you and other Members of Congress to secure both adequate
funding and adequate incentives to retain and also to recruit new
employees coming in.
Fortunately, there seems to be a considerable amount of enthu-
siasm among college graduates today for work in the natural re-
sources and environmental area. I dont think that the talent pool
that well be drawing from will necessarily be the problem. I think
that thethe real challenge will be to find funding and find incen-
tives to hire and then retain those employees, and to do that before
we lose the experience base that we need to train them.
Senator LUGAR. I raise that question, Mr. Chairman, because the
Under Secretary has these two large organizations as a part of the
chain of command. He is not involved in a hands-on way with ei-
ther one. They have their independence and their offices. But he
is the advocate for them. He is sort of the interlocutor between us,
the President, the organizations, and I think that is important.
Sometimes we have these nominee hearings, we have an impres-
15
sion somebody is going to be out there making a rule on roads or

something. Well, this is important in terms of policy, and he may
very well reflect a policy in consulting with the President, with the
Secretary of Agriculture, with us. But I was impressed by the fact
his long work, longstanding work with our colleagues that we
heard from this morning, Senator Murkowski and Senator Craig,
have given him an excellent background, obviously, of the issues
that come before us in the Congress, but that he has a very good
grasp of what is required to bring vigor to the organizations that
he advocates.
Let me ask a parochial question. The Forest Service does operate
all over our country, even including states that do not have large
forests like the midwestern states or my own State of Indiana. Our
State was once virtually cleared of trees. Over the course of time,
we are not unique, I found, in visiting Vermont one time, that it
occurred there, although we think of the verdant forests there as
substantial, and they have become that way in southern Indian as
we verge upon our neighbor, Kentucky. I am involved on my own
farm, a tree farm operation that has 200 acres. We cooperate with
the Department of Natural Resources of Indiana, and the State has
taken a vigorous role in encouraging the small landowners to plant
trees. Why? Because most of the trees available now to the timber
industry in the country, or for furniture makers or other users, are
in fact privately owned places, and most of them are fairly small.
One of the ways of boosting income for our farmers is to use the
back 10 that is not used for anything else, and to see with soil sam-
ples what might happen.
What, in the repertoire of the National Forest Service or the
Conservation Service, is there to help persons, tens of thousands of
them in my State and surrounding states, who maybe have, as we
do, just 200 acres in woodlands and in managed forests? What
kinds of services are there available for them, and what kind of en-
couragement to plant trees, to proceed in this, which is often a
multi-generational process?
Mr. REY. The Forest Service, one branch of the Forest Service
thats very important to those sorts of programs is the State and
Private Branch of the agency that works with state forestry agen-
cies to deliver technical assistance, and in some case financial as-
sistance to forest landowners to encourage sustainable forest man-
agement.
As I was preparing for this hearing, I asked a question about
how much of the state forestry agencies budget was made up by
assistance from our State and Private Forestry Program for the
U.S. Forest Service, and I was surprised to learn that probably on
the average about a third of the budget of state forestry agencies
throughout the 50 states are supported by Federal financial assist-
ance through the State and Private Forestry Program. In some
states its more than half; in other states, who have large forestry
organizations, its less. But those are important programs because
the majority of our forest land ownership is in private ownership,
not in public ownership, and providing both encouragement, assist-
ance and incentives to private landowners is one of the most impor-
tant things that the Forest Service does on a day-to-day basis. The
Natural Resources Conversation Service also has programs that as-
16
sist and encourage farmland owners to plant trees, particularly on

erodible soils. That program is important because its actually in-
creasing our forest base.
Both of those are very valuable programs that I look forward to
working with you to review as we get into the Farm Bill debate
this coming summer and fall.
Senator LUGAR. I look forward to that opportunity also. We are
always attempting to think of diversification in behalf of farm in-
come. We often think of alternate uses of corn and other things
that we produce, but clearly, the forest side of this is an important
supplement of income, and may turn out to be the most profitable
part for many private landowners. We look forward to working
with you on these projects.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Lugar.
Senator Thomas.
Senator THOMAS. Thank you.
Ms. Legg, we do not want to leave you out of this at all.
Ms. LEGG. Thats OK, but go
[Laughter.]
Senator THOMAS. What would you think would be currently
rural electric has been in place for a good long time, and so what
do you think would be the greatest challenge now, current chal-
lenge to the Rural Utilities?
Ms. LEGG. I think the greatest challenge, Senator, to the Rural
Utilities is to provide the service to all the constituencies in rural
communities at an affordable rate and in an efficient manner. I
think with the total energy issue today we have to ensure that dis-
tribution, from the generation facilities, is available to our folks
who live in our rural communities. I think its service and service
in an affordable way. I think its still around 15 percent higher at
this point, even in my state, to get electricity out to our rural com-
munities, and were one of the lower states in terms of cost, so I
think that will be an issue that well have to look at in context. I
think working with Vice President Cheney and Secretary Veneman,
who serves on that special task force to look at energy, to ensure
our rural communities have service. If confirmed, I would look for-
ward to working with them.
Senator THOMAS. We have been, just came from a hearing on
electricity over in Energy, and do you see, particularly the G&Ts
being involved with the regular movement along with the other
utilities pretty much the same, so that they can move their power,
or do you see them separate from the investor-owned utility?
Ms. LEGG. Senator, I think its going to take all entities working
collaboratively toagain, to bring that service to our rural commu-
nities. I would look forward to discussions with all folks, all the
G&Ts, the co-ops, everyone, to be involved in that discussion, as to
how we best accomplish our goal.
Senator THOMAS. Last year the Congress passed a bill that estab-
lishes a guaranteed program for satellite TV delivery. Are you fa-
miliar with that program?
Ms. LEGG. Ive had a quick conversation about that.
Senator THOMAS. I guess I hope that you will be able to move
in and do something about having the regulations written and so
17
on, so when that is funded, that this will be an opportunity to pro-

vide access to rural folks, the same kind of TV that others have.
Ms. LEGG. Senator, I can assure you that if I am confirmed, that
we will be in discussion with your staff about those issues, and the
promulgation of the regulations, as well as the other entities at
USDA about that.
Senator THOMAS. Local TV is something of a problem.
Ms. LEGG. Absolutely.
Senator THOMAS. Mr. Rey, there has been some concern that be-
cause of the rules and regulations that go out in the non-point
source water, so on, that NRCS has become sort of a regulatory
agency as opposed to a technical assistant. How do you react to
that?
Mr. REY. TheIm not sure, Senator, that NRCS has been per-
ceived as a regulatory agency so much as some of the new rules
involving non-point sources imposed additional regulations on farm
landowners that they have trouble dealing with. Today, as EPA
struggles at looking with the total maximum daily load rules and
the concentrated animal feeding operation rules, the administra-
tion has formed an interagency task group between EPA and
NRCS, to work together on making those rules effective in improv-
ing water quality, but effective as well in securing the cooperation
of farmers and feedlot owners to accomplish those objectives. I had
the opportunity to sit in briefly on one of the meetings of the two
agencies yesterday, and I was struck by how well they were work-
ing together to accomplish that end.
What I would commit to you, Senator, if Im confirmed, is to in-
crease NRCSs involvement in those regulations to make sure, one,
that theyre effective in improving water quality, but, two, that
they retain NRCSs cooperative relationship with farm landowners
because I think we have made our greatest strides in controlling
non-point source pollution in the past, when that relationship has
worked to the advantage of both the environment and farm land-
owners.
Senator THOMAS. Nobody argues, of course, with the idea of clean
water and so on, but I think both in the case of some of the Forest
Service questions and certainly these questions, it seems like per-
haps there needs to be more involvement of local people and more
involvement of state agencies, more involvement of the state con-
servation associations and so on. Would you find that to be some-
thing you would like to promote?
Mr. REY. If I am confirmed, I will work to make NRCS an active
partner in those programs, working through the state conservation
organizations and the other delivery systems that we have in
USDA.
Senator THOMAS. That is one of the things, as you well know bet-
ter than I, and the chairman just stepped out, but, you know, there
is all kinds of different forests, U.S. forests around, and they are
pretty unique, and each one of them has a forest plan that has to
be done every certain period of years. Yet some of the rules have
been put out here from Washington without much attention to the
individualism or the uniqueness of the various forests, which those
studies should be able to put forth. I hope that we do not get the
18
one-fits-all kinds of things on all these issues. I know that you have
been involved in that. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Thomas.
Senator Crapo.
Senator CRAPO. Thank you very much.
Ms. Legg, I think you are going to miss most of the questions
today, and you can take that as a fortunate thing, I think.
[Laughter.]
Ms. LEGG. I do. Thank you, Senator.
Senator CRAPO. Idaho has about 20 million acres of National For-
est land that I want to talk to Mr. Rey about here for a minute.
Mr. Rey, the Forest Service recently entered into an interagency
agreement with the National Marine Fisheries Service to focus on
the need to get consultations done on the forests, particularly those
that are most at high risk with regard to catastrophic wildfire and
present a threat to the communities in the West. Are you aware
of that agreement?
Mr. REY. I am, Senator.
Senator CRAPO. In my State alone, the National Marine Fisheries
Service has opened a new office in Grangeville and in Salmon, and
I think in total there are at least 31 new National Marine Fisheries
Service biologists that have been located in western communities
in order to get consultations done on forests that are at the highest
risk for wildfire. Do you believe, if confirmed, that you have the au-
thority that you need to make sure that these consultations are
completed in a timely manner and that these on-the-ground
projects can proceed?
Mr. REY. Thank you, Senator. I believe that authority exists, and
Im encouraged by the quick action of the National Marine Fish-
eries Service to hire those biologists. Last summer, during and im-
mediately after the fire season, when the committee that I staffed
held hearings on both the fires and fire recovery, one of the things
that the Forest Service, and for that matter, the Interior Depart-
ment explained to us, is that one of the impediments in moving for-
est rehabilitation projects forward was a lack of resources at the
Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Marine Fisheries Serv-
ice to engage in Endangered Species Act Section 7 consultations to
assure that those projects didnt result in jeopardy to a threatened
endangered species.
It wasnt a case where the Fish and Wildlife Service or the Na-
tional Marine Fisheries Service were being uncooperative; they
simply didnt have enough people to get the job done. One of the
things that the Appropriations Committee did, as a result of that
oversight testimony, was include funding in last years Interior and
Related Agencies Appropriations Act to bring those people on
board. We subsequently found that we needed to provide additional
statutory authority to transfer the money from the Forest Service
to the National Marine Fisheries Service, and your committee, the
Environment and Public Works Committee, promptly passed ena-
bling legislation to get that done this past spring.
Now those National Marine Fisheries Service biologists are on
the ground. I am very encouraged that they are actually being
placed in places like Grangeville and Salmon, close to the resource
so they can observe whats happening firsthand. My commitment
19
to you is that, if Im confirmed, Ill make sure that the Forest Serv-
ice and they are working hand-in-glove to get this work done as
quickly as possible.
Senator CRAPO. Thank you. I appreciate that. It is always kind
of an awkward dilemma for those of us who want to see this work
move ahead rapidly to recognize that we have to have a lot more
Federal regulators moved into our State in order to get it done, but
we recognize what is going on. We do hope that, with your leader-
ship and that of others in the administration, that we can get these
consultations completed very rapidly.
I would ask you, if confirmed, if you would keep my office ap-
prised of any obstacles that you may run into that would prevent
these consultations and projects from moving ahead expeditiously.
Mr. REY. Im happy to do so.
Senator CRAPO. Thank you. I just have one other area of inquiry
right now, and that is, as I am sure you know, because we have
worked together very closely in the past, I have been pretty critical
of the way that the Forest Service allocates its funding.
One of the problems that we often face out in our forests in the
West, which, frankly, you just alluded to, in terms of the lack of
personnel there to get the job done that we need done in terms of
proper management of the forests, and this includes everything
from getting the biologists there for the consultations to making
sure that the camp grounds are kept up, that there is the adequate
enforcement of the need for management on the forest grounds or
any number of things.
What we often see is that critical and needed activities in our
forests are not undertaken by the Forest Service, and the expla-
nation that we get is that they do not have enough money in their
budget to get it done. In fact, we are often told that their budgets
are shrinking, rather than growing, with the needs that they face.
When I am told that, I come back here scratching my head be-
cause I remember voting on the appropriations for the Agency, and
I remember the appropriations going up, not down. I have inquired
a number of times about this and have found out that, in fact, the
appropriations have annually, since I have been in Congress, gone
up, not done. Almost annually the amount of money allocated to
the local forests has gone down, not up.
I want to know where that money is going. What I have found
out so far is that it is going to more heavily populated urban areas
or to the central bureaucracy of the Forest Service. I think that is
wrong. First of all, I would like to have your perspective on that,
and I hope that we can address this discrepancy in the future, as
we work together, if you are confirmed.
Mr. REY. Thank you, Senator.
The data Ive seen in budget allocation over the last several cy-
cles have shown, as you indicated, that more funds are bewere
being retained longer in the Washington office, as opposed to being
distributed to the field. In his first appearance before the Energy
Committee, at a hearing which I staffed, the new chief of the For-
est Service, Dale Bosworth, stated, without prodding, that one of
his first objectives was going to be to reverse that trend and to get
more money out of the Washington office and into the field faster,
20
and if Im confirmed, Ill be helping him in making sure that we

accomplish that goal.
Senator CRAPO. I appreciate that. In fact, Mr. Bosworth was one
of those regional forest managers who was getting short shrifted on
the budget when he was out in the field. I am glad to see him now
back in headquarters, if you will, because I know that he under-
stands the problem, and I appreciate his comments, as well as your
commitment.
I have no further questions at this point. Although, Mr. Chair-
man, I did have a brief statement that I did not give at the begin-
ning and would ask unanimous consent that it could be made a
part of the record.
The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, absolutely, Mr. Crapo.
Senator CRAPO. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Senator Allard.
Senator ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, I guess you are getting a pretty
heavy dose of Western issues here, as it applies to the forest.
[Laughter.]
Senator ALLARD. I am going to join the chorus.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. You get a heavy dose of Mid-
western issues all the time.
[Laughter.]
Senator ALLARD. We have got a little balance on this committee,
I see.
The CHAIRMAN. That is right.
[Laughter.]
Senator ALLARD. But, you know, the State of Colorado finds itself
frequently entwined in forest and water issues. I share the con-
cerns of my colleagues, certainly, from Idaho and Wyoming, about
the way the Forest has disregarded the States role on water issues
and has, at times, stepped in and claimed in water rights, that the
Federal Government has supremacy. In water in Western areas, is
frankly a property right. When the government drops in and says,
We want to take first priority in an allocation in a river, that
means that all of the other people who have purchased water for
their farm or ranch, or a city who is taking care of their municipal
needs, find themselves moving down the ladder. That type of policy
concerns me, and Im apt to get in touch with you whenever the
issue of Federal Reserve water rights comes up.
I would like to hear some of your thoughts on a Federal Reserve
water right.
Mr. REY. Before you came in, Senator Allard, I recounted a quote
attributed to Mark Twain at the end of the last century, wherein
he said that, in the West, whiskey is for drinking, but water is for
fighting about.
As Ive observed the situation in Colorado, I think my conclusion
is we probably need more whiskey to work through those problems.
[Laughter.]
Mr. REY. The Supreme Court I think has made it abundantly
clear that the Federal Government must assert any reserved water
rights that it wishes to maintain through State courtState Water
Court proceedings. Over the last several years, weve tried to do
that, I think.
21
Where the Forest Service, in my judgment, has been most suc-

cessful in identifying and securing in-stream flows necessary for
fish and wildlife populations is where it has done that through a
collaborative process with the States, through State proceedings;
for instance, using the 1973 Colorado process for that purpose.
Where the Forest Service has tried to assert water rights that
were ambiguous, without that local collaboration, they have been
less successful, except in instances where a threatened or endan-
gered species or a wild and scenic river have been involved.
Generally speaking, though, it would be my preference, if con-
firmed, to, in as many cases as possible, take the former course and
to work collaboratively through State proceedings with the other
water users to try to secure a mutually acceptable outcome for all
interests.
Senator ALLARD. Well, I appreciate your answer in that, because
all States are a little bit different. Although most Western States
have the doctrine of prior appropriation that originated in Colorado
and was eventually adopted by many of the other Western States.
But the Eastern States have a different type of water law, and I
am glad to hear that you are willing to work with Western States
in that. That gives them some ability, at least, to communicate
about how the system is going to react with each of the individual
State water laws and court systems that have been set up within
the States. I think those of us in the West, in Colorado, Wyoming,
and Idaho would appreciate that approach.
I cannot emphasize how important it is, whether we are talking
about forest management issues, water issues or any kind of natu-
ral resource issue, that there be some mechanism for local input.
I would like to hear any thoughts that you may have on how we
might allow more local input from people that are impacted
through forest decisions or water decisions or any natural resource
decisions in these States and how we might enhance that. If you
have any thoughts on that, I would like to hear what those might
be.
Mr. REY. I think one opportunity that we have right now that is
exceptionally important that the Forest Service is well underway in
implementing are the local advisory committees that were estab-
lished by a piece of legislation that Senator Craig referred to ear-
lier today, the Secure Rural Schools and County Payments Act.
I think those local advisory committees are going to go a long
way to providing a forum for collaboration with local people, of a
variety of views, to work together in securing forest management
decisions that are reflective of national environmental priorities
and national environmental requirements, but nevertheless sen-
sitive to local site-specific conditions and local needs.
So Im very optimistic that, as those committees are up and run-
ning, they will provide a local forum for people to work out their
differences, and that in doing so, the differences that are presented
to you, the Congress, here in Washington, DC, are going to be vet-
ted to the point that theyre a little bit less contentious and maybe
easier to resolve.
Senator ALLARD. One other area that I want to bring up and,
again it has to do with water, and has attempted to be imple-
mented by the Forest Service in Colorado. Western States continue
22
to share this concern because of the precedent it begins to set. This

is the issue of bypass flows.
We have a ditch that perhaps was put in place even before it was
designated as a national forest. The Forest comes in every so often
and allows a renewed permit to allow the ditch. In some instances
they said, Well, we will renew your permit, but we want a certain
percentage of the water out of that ditch. I have a real concern
about that. I would be more comfortable if they would just ask for
a flat fee because the value of water, as it increases, almost creates
a windfall for the Federal Government. Over time, it also means
that a farmer or rancher that has relied on that ditch for various
reasons is going to eventually dedicate all of that water over to the
Federal Government. It is the issue of this becoming a takings that
concerns me.
I do not expect you to be up on all of those issues on those things
because they do get a little bit complicated, but I think that your
fundamental thoughts about local control and working with the
States on water should help resolve those conflicts.
Thank you.
Mr. REY. Thank you.
Senator ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Allard.
Ms. Legg, I noted, with interest, on your statement that you said,
Utilities have been and will continue to be the conduit for develop-
ment, even in the Information Age, which is of course the newest
infrastructure challenge to rural communities. You mentioned that
in passing there.
Interesting reading is the history of the development of the Rural
Electrification Act and the debate that took place in the Senate
during that time. If you have nothing better to do with your time
some evening, I recommend it.
Ms. LEGG. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. It is an interesting read about how there were
Senators who said that if people want to live in rural areas that
is their right to do so, but we do not have to provide electricity to
them because it costs too much money, it is cost-ineffective and to
run all of those lines out there for miles to serve one farmer, does
not make any sense. This is a debate that took place on the Senate
floor.
Well, we persevered and it got through. Of course it was not just
that line to that farmer. It was the lines that went out to our rural
communities that enabled us to build colleges, and community col-
leges, and schools, and manufacturing came to our small towns and
communities, so the whole thing blossomed because of that.
Having said that, it seems to me that, getting into the 21st cen-
tury, we still have utilities that are needed in our rural areas. You
touched on that, and that is the whole area of broad-band access.
If we do not have broad-band access to our small towns and com-
munities, that means they are on the other side of that digital di-
vide. What mail order company or what firm that might employ a
few people to run a phone service or clearinghouse or something is
going to locate in a small community if they do not have access,
and rapid access, through broad-band technology?
23
We know right now that a lot of farmers are getting their income
off-farm. I stated this fact the other day. I think it is true in my
StateI do not know about Indianabut I think only 1 of 15 who
live in rural Iowa farm. The rest live in small towns and commu-
nities, and even those who farm are getting off-farm income.
I think we have to provide some basics for these people in these
communities, and so a lot of people say that your job, your future
job, is basically completed in terms of utilities. We have got the
wires out there, we have got the lines, and so we do not need any-
thing else. But I would like to have your thoughts on how you
would lead the charge towards the new concept of the Rural Utility
Services being involved in the utilities of the 21st century, which
is Internet service and broad-band access to our small towns and
communities. How do you see your job as promoting that aspect
and coming to this committee to ask us for our help and our sup-
port to give you the necessary wherewithal to carry that out. So
how do you see that?
Ms. LEGG. Senator, I think thats probably the most exciting as-
pect of RUS at this point in time. It is a new economy, it is knowl-
edge base, it is the Information Age. We cannot deny that. We can-
not run from that.
Now, technology will notits not the silver bullet. It will not
cure all of our rural communities ills, but it has to be available in
order for us to be at least competitive in the global economy,
whether its our agricultural products, whether its bringing edu-
cational opportunities, whether it is to consult with a medical pro-
fessional, many States away. It is absolutely critical, in terms of
economic development, that our rural communities, and that our
children in those communities, can interact with the world.
Its not just about education, its about pure economic develop-
ment. Its about bottom-line dollars and cents, and the name of the
game is speed. How fast can you get voice, data and video over that
infrastructure? In Kentucky, as the Congressman alluded to Silicon
Holler, we call it at the Center rising above the mountains. Its not
the roadits not the farm-to-market road, but it is the way that
we do business today, and so we call it the information highway,
and of course all of the on ramps and off ramps. But its all about
speed. Its all about economic development.
As far as Im concerned, Senator, I would be eager to work with
your folks here on the Hill, obviously, the other entities throughout
the Federal Government and our local communities to help them
understand, No. 1, that rural communities need it, how to use it,
and how to make it work for our communities to grow.
Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. Going from that back to the old
system. I do not know how you did in Kentucky, but we started a
number of years ago building rural water systems in Iowa. Maybe
you have them in your area too. They have been great, but we have
a long way to go.
There are still many, many communities in my State and all over
the country that need clean, safe drinking water. In many cases,
environmental regulations require the upgrading of rural water
systems, but the people in those communities do not have the fi-
24
nancial wherewithal to do that. The EPA comes in and says, You

have got to meet these standards.
The people say, Well, we would like to meet those standards,
but they just do not have the tax base and the resources to do that.
They are very limited. I am asking for any thoughts that you might
have on what we can do to help our communities with two things:
to expand the rural water systems beyond what we have right now,
and, again, thinking about it in terms of the lines, the old electric
lines, and people say, Well, it is expensive. Well, it is not all that
expensive.
Second, what can we do to help our small communities upgrade
their water systems to meet the new regulations?
Ms. LEGG. Senator, those are very important issues. As weve
been talking about all morning in some form or fashion, its purely
vital to our existence. I know what its like to be on the county
water system. I know what it was like when we first got on the
county water system, too. I understand that need very, very much.
I also know that its an economic development issue, as well as a
quality of life, and a health issue.
What will we do? Obviously, regulations are always more dif-
ficult to adhere to in rural communities because of the lack of the
tax base and the expense to do so. But I can assure you, if I am
confirmed, that I will be working to try to address those issues, and
along with the EPA, get that those regulations in place. We will be
a loud voice of advocacy for those rural communities so our individ-
uals can have clean drinking water and we can maintain the sys-
tems we have already invested in.
The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. I just want you to know that
I come fromyou say you come from a small town. How big is your
hometown?
Ms. LEGG. Actually, it was about 4,000. That was the county
seat, and I lived out in the county.
The CHAIRMAN. That is a big city.
[Laughter.]
Ms. LEGG. Well, I lived in Knifley. Now, that was just a couple
of hundred, at most.
The CHAIRMAN. My hometown has 150 people. I still live there.
I live in the house in which I was born. Very few people can say
they actually wake up in the room in which they were born, but
I can say that.
Ms. LEGG. That is true, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. But I remember when they came through in the
1970s, and they tested all of the wells and not one well tested fit
to drink, not one well in our town, to which my political opponents
always said, No wonder what is wrong with you, Harkin. Drinking
that bad water all your life.
[Laughter.]
The CHAIRMAN. But we got an extension of a water line over,
through Rural Water, and we got an extension in. What a blessing
it was for people. Of course, now we have a sewer system.
Ms. LEGG. Big time.
The CHAIRMAN. Big time, now. Of course, that caused some prob-
lems, but I am not going to go into that. But I also have firsthand
25
experience of what it means to get good water in our hometown.

I would look forward to working with you on that.
I have some more questions for Mr. Rey, but I will yield to you,
and now we will go around again here.
Senator Lugar.
Senator LUGAR. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Legg, following through on Senator Harkins questions about
the Internet and the broad-band, one of the problems that is high-
lighted by most of the financial press is that many of the tele-
communications companies in the private sector have extended
their lines, their facilities to a point that they are nearly in bank-
ruptcy. In other words, the bond issues, the borrowings that have
been required to lay out all of this have been sizable, and although
the market may respond in due course, people may come on line,
small towns may use it, there seems to be a time-lag factor here.
I am curious, as you take a look at the management of what
amounts to a very, very large utility that you are managing on be-
half of the taxpayers, what are the policies of Rural Utility Services
in terms of borrowing, extension of services and what have you?
We had a pretty broad debate a couple of years ago about the need
to have an Internet that united all of us in America, and especially
rural America in remote areas, and, generally, Congress subscribes
to that idealism.
But, finally, you and your cohorts are left, as you say, where the
rubber hits the road, to actually bring this into actuality, to raise
the funds or to take the risks, in some cases, that are required.
Have you given this thought and, if so, what kind of policies do you
find there now and what kind of borrowing authority or other rec-
ommendations are you likely to make as you come to the Congress
for budget authority?
Ms. LEGG. Senator, I have given some thought in terms of, and
have been involved in trying, if you will, to create the demand from
that private sector, what forces or not just forces, but entices the
providers to provide service there. It is sort of a chicken or egg
situation, which comes first?
Senator LUGAR. In other words, the public utility encourages the
private people to make the investment so that the public is not at
risk in these borrowings and what have you.
Ms. LEGG. Right. I think its always a juggle of that public/pri-
vate, if you will, concern and demand. To tell you I would be able
to say today that I have some policy recommendations, I simply
would like to ask if I could get your input on that in the future
and also become more involved with the policy development folks
at USDA. Ive been hoping that this confirmation hearing would
give me an opportunity to do that and would look forward to work-
ing with you.
Senator LUGAR. Very well.
Let me ask to what extent now in the history of our country is
everyone connected, at least in terms of basic electrical services? Is
everybody online there?
Ms. LEGG. Electric just from the electricity demand?
Senator LUGAR. Yes. Let us take that for starters.
Ms. LEGG. Electricity demand is much, as you would guess, is
much more available than the Internet connectivity.
26
Senator LUGAR. Right.

Ms. LEGG. Internet is about 7.3 percent in our rural commu-
nities, in terms of that connectivity. Its under 10 percent.
In the rural electrification, I dont have an exact number to give
you, but my perception from working with our folks is that its
more of a matter of looking at the last mile, if you will, of that
connectivity. It goes back to Senator Harkins statement about if
they live out that far, then they need to just run their own electric
out there or their own line. We hear those discussions. Ive been
a part of those discussions. Its not just 65 years ago with the be-
ginning of the REA. There are still folks who have that discussion
today.
Senator LUGAR. Right now, yes.
Ms. LEGG. I think what well be looking at is, again, those that
have been left out, those last-mile connections are what I would
like to get involved in as we pursue this issue.
Senator LUGAR. I appreciate that because I, you know, clearly
the excitement now is the Internet. As you say, youve got about
7-percent-plus online there, but the old debate of 60 years ago is
not really over with regard to basic electric services.
Ms. LEGG. Thats right.
Senator LUGAR. Beyond that, other services that are inter-
mediary to that, and that takes some doing. It has been a debate
with the telephone people for quite a while as to that last phone.
Ms. LEGG. Thats right.
Senator LUGAR. What really the obligation is, either private or
public, in that respect. As you get into the position think, in terms
of your further testimony before this committee or others, as to
what you find, so that we have some parameters for what is still
out there, what sort of challenge, and what the expenses are, and
what the public policy recommendations that you and others have
ought to be.
Ms. LEGG. I look forward to that discussion. You cant run those
computers unless you have electricity, and you need a drink of
water throughout the day if youre going to sit at that computer all
day. I look forward to that, Senator.
Senator LUGAR. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Crapo.
Senator CRAPO. I do not have any more questions at this point.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
I just have a couple. Mr. Rey, much of your background and the
focus here has been on forest issues, but you have another impor-
tant aspect that will come under your jurisdiction that Im maybe
more interested in called the National Resources Conservation
Service. I just want to know what, in your background, might dem-
onstrate that you can lead the NRCS, and how it works, and what
its programs are.
Can you just briefly give me some of your thoughts on the NRCS,
and what its charges are, and how you might lead that agency.
Mr. REY. Certainly. One of the reasons I was enthusiastic about
taking on this assignment, when the President offered me the op-
portunity, is that from 1976 through 1984, while I worked for the
27
forest products industry, I was working on nonpoint source pollu-

tion issues from agriculture and silvaculture. During that time pe-
riod, I had the occasion to work alongside the then-Soil Conserva-
tion Service in developing and implementing the first nonpoint
source pollution control programs developed sincedeveloped as a
result of the 1972 and 1977 Clean Water Acts.
During that time period, we had to sort out the debate about
what the best way to address the water quality problems associ-
ated with runoff from rural lands, whether they be forest lands or
farmlands, could be done, and I enjoyed the opportunity to work on
those first programs.
I was enthusiastic when the President offered the opportunity to
come back, now 15 years later, to see what kind of progress thats
been on those issues. On the one hand, as I began to read and be
briefed on them, I was struck by the fact that some of the issues
are still with us: wetlands protection, runoff from animal feedlots,
et cetera.
On the other hand, I was struck, at the same time, by how much
progress wed made, not only through the implementation of the
Clean Water Act, but through the very creative and worthwhile
programs that were developed through the Farm bills in 1985,
1990, and 1996, in which I didnt participate, but just watched as
an observer.
One of the exciting challenges that this job will bring to me is
to work with you in the development of this new Farm bill and look
at the EQIP program, the WRP, the WHIP program, and the FFP
to see how we might improve on what weve done since you first
put some of those programs into place over the last 15 years, when
I dropped out of that debate and went into a different area.
Some of the programs I find, as Ive reviewed them, are ex-
tremely creative. The FFP program, in particular, is one where Id
like to work with the committee, if confirmed, to see if we can im-
prove on that program, both by expanding its reach through the
Farm bill provisions, but also looking at creative ways to involve
other partners in purchasing easements for farmland protection.
I do have some background in these areas. Its not as recent as
my work with the Forest Service, but I have worked a lot with the
then-SCS, now the NRCS, and look forward to working with them
and with you, again, if confirmed.
The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that, and again I hope that you will
be very diligent and careful in the personnel who run the profes-
sional end of the NRCS. They should be professionals, they should
have a good professional background, and I would hope that, in no
way, would any kind of political considerations be involved, in any
way, in the selection of those professionals who need to run the Soil
Conservation Service. They should be people with good back-
grounds, and there should not be any thought of any political in-
volvement there.
Last, I would just say, as you mentioned, we are about to embark
on a new farm bill, I hope that the new Farm bill will have as its
centerpiece, a new conservation approach. I have been working on
one for a number of years now. It just seemed odd to me that we,
in the past, in fact, Senator Lugar brought this up the other day,
and I am going to try to remember the figures, do you remember
28
those, percentagewise, how much we put into land idling and how
much we put into production?
Senator LUGAR. It is 85/15 now, and it used to be the other way
around.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Now we put 85 percent of our conservation
money in land idling and only 15 percent in the producing side. Fif-
teen years ago, in 1985, it was 90/1090 percent, I think
Senator LUGAR. The other way around.
The CHAIRMAN. The other way around.
While the CRP is a good program, I have supported the CRP,
there are some moves now to try to expand it to 45 million acres,
and I think that would be devastating, in many ways, for our small
towns and communities.
It is my idea to focus more of our attention on conservation on
working lands. I hope you will take a look at a bill that I intro-
duced with Gordon Smith from Oregon, and I think Representative
Thune, is the main sponsor on the House side. It is a bipartisan
approach, bicameral. The idea is to begin shifting and focusing
funds to help farmers on producing land. We have titled it the Con-
servation Security Act. I hope you will take a look at that and keep
an open mind about working with us on this aspect of the Farm
bill.
If you have any thoughts on it now or anytime, I would be glad
to listen to those, but maybe you have not had a chance to look at
it.
Mr. REY. In all honesty, Senator, I havent really had a chance
to look at either your proposal or any of the other ones that are
being circulated.
The CHAIRMAN. Fair enough.
Mr. REY. I know that the Department is working on its own pro-
posal diligently to be able to participate with you in the Farm bill
drafting.
I would like, at a subsequent time, if confirmed, to visit with you
and Senator Lugar and go through these alternatives in more de-
tail.
The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that..
Do you have any more questions?
We thank you both for being here. We thank you both for your
past public service and your future public service. We wish you
well. We look forward to working with you in the development of
the new Farm bill, which we will be moving on fairly rapidly, and
beyond that just to work with you on all of these issues.
[The information of Mr. Rey follows:]
[The information of Ms. Legg follows:]
The CHAIRMAN. If there is nothing else to come before the com-
mittee, the committee will stand adjourned.
Thank you very much.
Ms. LEGG. Thank you.
Mr. REY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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S. HRG.

NOMINATION HEARING FOR MARK REY AND

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

JULY 26, 2001

Printed for the use of the

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

MARK HALVERSON, Staff Director

Thursday, July 26, 2001

STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS

THURSDAY, JULY 26, 2001

country. Surely we can do more both in Congress and the Depart-

13 States and with a budget of over $190 million in a position

I have had the pleasure of working with Mark for a number of

balance to policy. In many instances, I think we have been able to

playing a major and successful role in helping one of the countrys

nomic growth in severely distressed communities. Clearly, nothing

Environment is the greatest honor that I have been accorded in a

Mr. REY. The administration is not appealing the decision, but

sion somebody is going to be out there making a rule on roads or

sist and encourage farmland owners to plant trees, particularly on

on, so when that is funded, that this will be an opportunity to pro-

and if Im confirmed, Ill be helping him in making sure that we

Where the Forest Service, in my judgment, has been most suc-

to share this concern because of the precedent it begins to set. This

nancial wherewithal to do that. The EPA comes in and says, You

experience of what it means to get good water in our hometown.

Senator LUGAR. Right.

forest products industry, I was working on nonpoint source pollu-

JULY 26, 2001

JULY 26, 2001

JULY 26, 2001

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