Silk Road Trial - Day 6 Transcript
Silk Road Trial - Day 6 Transcript
Silk Road Trial - Day 6 Transcript
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2
v.
14 Cr. 68 (KBF)
6
7
Defendant.
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9
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1031
Trial
Before:
HON. KATHERINE B. FORREST,
12
District Judge
13
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24
APPEARANCES
PREET BHARARA,
United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
BY: SERRIN A. TURNER
TIMOTHY HOWARD
Assistant United States Attorneys
JOSHUA LEWIS DRATEL
LINDSAY LEWIS
JOSHUA HOROWITZ
Attorneys for Defendant
- also present Special Agent Vincent D'Agostino
Molly Rosen, Government Paralegal
Nicholas Evert, Government Paralegal
Sharon Kim, Legal Intern
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
1032
Trial
MR. TURNER:
Good morning.
THE COURT:
10
MR. DRATEL:
11
12
THE COURT:
13
14
that I got from the government this morning and to give you
15
16
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22
MR. HOWARD:
23
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25
side bar.
THE COURT:
Okay.
government.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
1033
Trial
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
10
11
12
Let's see
13
14
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17
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19
remains to be determined.
20
21
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25
MR. DRATEL:
It's
F1MGULB1
1034
Trial
extraordinarily different.
THE COURT:
It's
MR. DRATEL:
10
THE COURT:
Right.
Thank you.
11
12
13
14
15
16
believe that it remains, we'll talk about it, but I think the
17
My view is sufficient
18
19
MR. TURNER:
If you
20
21
22
don't think the Court needs to address that issue because even
23
24
25
THE COURT:
All right.
F1MGULB1
1035
Trial
9
10
The rationale of
I think we
11
MR. DRATEL:
12
have had some long ones, if Mr. Ulbricht can be present at side
13
bar.
14
THE COURT:
15
16
MR. TURNER:
This is brief.
17
18
19
side bars.
20
21
22
23
24
communications until times when the jury has gone back to the
25
jury room.
The
So I just ask
F1MGULB1
1
2
1036
Trial
THE COURT:
that?
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you.
something to my attention.
to the issue.
10
11
12
13
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15
MR. DRATEL:
16
I'm not
17
THE COURT:
18
19
20
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22
23
MR. DRATEL:
24
THE COURT:
25
Right.
Thank you.
can hear.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
He
F1MGULB1
1
THE DEFENDANT:
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
1037
Trial
I'm aware, and I'm listening.
Thank you.
We might have
is perfectly fine with the Court, the marshals will come up.
That's protocol.
10
11
12
13
MR. DRATEL:
14
THE COURT:
15
Thank you.
Anything else we should deal with right
now?
16
MR. HOWARD:
17
THE COURT:
18
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
THE COURT:
Okay.
No.
Joe is checking on them.
21
brief break.
22
23
Let's take a
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
1
THE COURT:
1038
Trial
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
MR. HOWARD:
Okay.
Mr. Howard.
Thank you, your Honor.
THOMAS KIERNAN,
BY MR. HOWARD:
10
Q.
11
A.
Good morning.
12
MR. HOWARD:
13
THE COURT:
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
I do, yes.
18
Q.
What is this?
19
A.
These are two thumb drives that were recovered from the
20
defendant's residence.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
with them.
Do you
24
MR. HOWARD:
25
MR. DRATEL:
F1MGULB1
1
1039
Kiernan - direct
THE COURT:
All right.
Received.
Q.
A.
little smaller than a hard drive, but it has the same purposes
as a hard drive.
Q.
Exhibit 502A?
It's a
10
A.
Two.
11
Q.
12
A.
One was a four gig thumb drive, and the other one was a 16
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
How did you get access to the contents of that thumb drive?
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
A.
Correct, correct.
24
Q.
25
Did there come a time when you reviewed the contents of the
Yes.
F1MGULB1
1040
A.
make sure that what I was looking at was the actual true copy
Q.
A.
I'm sorry.
Q.
502.
A.
200s, right?
Q.
10
A.
502.
11
Q.
12
A.
I do.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes, it does.
20
21
Yes.
Kiernan - direct
We used the MD5 Hash, the digital fingerprint, to
Could you please take a moment and flip to what has been
Which one?
Okay.
It has it here.
MR. HOWARD:
Exhibit 502.
22
MR. DRATEL:
No objection.
23
THE COURT:
24
25
MR. HOWARD:
Received.
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
1041
Q.
A.
Correct, yes.
Q.
out?
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
represents, yes.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Okay.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
22
A.
23
MR. HOWARD:
24
25
MR. DRATEL:
No objection.
F1MGULB1
1042
Kiernan - direct
THE COURT:
Received.
MR. HOWARD:
focus on 205A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
MD5, yes.
10
Q.
11
12
Actually, let's
13
A.
14
15
that's created.
16
Q.
17
A.
It did, yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
I did.
20
Q.
And what did you find on the copy of the thumb drive after
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Okay.
Got it.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
Q.
A.
This is two.
Q.
A.
I do.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
10
files.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
Yes.
MR. HOWARD:
Exhibit 297.
16
MR. DRATEL:
No objection.
17
THE COURT:
18
19
MR. HOWARD:
Received.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
What device?
23
A.
24
25
MR. HOWARD:
1043
F1MGULB1
1044
Kiernan - direct
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
www.tar.gz.gpg.
Correct.
Which
10
drive.
11
recover.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And what, if you look at those two files that you just
16
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
19
A.
Again, that was encrypted software that had those two files
20
21
Q.
22
A.
I was, yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
9/23/2013.
F1MGULB1
1
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD:
1045
Q.
A.
used to do it.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
decrypted it?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
16
17
That's all.
18
MR. DRATEL:
19
THE COURT:
Objection.
I'll allow it.
Overruled.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
1046
Objection.
Overruled.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
were from the directory that contained files from the Silk Road
website?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes.
Exhibits --
14
MR. DRATEL:
Objection.
15
THE COURT:
16
Why don't you strike the word "backed-up" and just say
Overruled.
17
"version."
Rephrase.
18
Q.
19
20
Road website files as were found in this file that was saved on
21
22
A.
I did; yes.
23
Q.
24
backup.tar.gz.gpg file.
25
A.
Okay.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
I did, yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
1047
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
taken -- that you extracted from the back -- from the backup
14
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
Did you also find copies of those same files in that file
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes.
21
be.
22
laptop.
23
Q.
24
25
your binder.
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
A.
Okay.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
that.
1048
10
Q.
Which of the two files that you -- which of the two files
11
is that from?
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
There was the one that contained the Silk Road website
17
files, correct?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And there was one that contained the backup files, correct?
20
A.
Yes.
21
file, that backup file that we had found on the USB thumb
22
23
Q.
24
exhibit.
25
A.
Right.
Yes.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
1049
Q.
A.
un -- the decrypted backup file that was found on the USB drive
that I decrypted.
6
7
MR. HOWARD:
Exhibit 298.
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
No objection.
Received.
10
11
MR. HOWARD:
12
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
screen?
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Mr. Kiernan, this is another screen shot you took from FTK
MR. HOWARD:
23
Q.
24
thumb drive?
25
F1MGULB1
1050
Kiernan - direct
corner here.
A.
Q.
A.
What does the metadata reflect about the date that that
9/20/2013.
MR. HOWARD:
10
five of this exhibit, and could you please move this to the
11
left side.
12
Q.
13
defendant's laptop?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
right side of the screen, which has already been admitted into
17
18
Now, Mr. Kiernan, the one on the left side is the one
19
20
A.
That's correct.
21
Q.
And the one on the right is the one from the defendant's
22
laptop, right?
23
A.
24
25
Yes.
MR. HOWARD:
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
1051
and bottom.
Q.
drive?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Computer, correct.
Q.
And what is the last entry on the one taken from the USB
drive?
A.
9/19/2013.
10
Q.
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
And you testified that this file was saved on September 20,
13
2013 --
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
A.
Right.
17
Q.
18
to the bottom.
Now, to be clear, Mr. Kiernan, is the top one from the USB
19
20
21
22
A.
That's correct.
23
Q.
24
25
F1MGULB1
1052
Kiernan - direct
A.
Q.
was messaged by one of their team who said they shut down
10
in Tor."
11
THE COURT:
12
"dealings."
13
Q.
14
9/13/2013 spoke with inigo for a while about the book club and
15
16
eat well, get good sleep and meditate so I can stay positive
17
and productive."
18
It's "detailing."
Pardon me.
MR. HOWARD:
19
20
21
Q.
22
A.
23
wallet.dat file.
24
Q.
25
And
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
What is it?
A.
Q.
A.
10
1053
I am.
And what, if anything, did you do with this file after you
11
12
13
THE COURT:
14
THE WITNESS:
15
THE COURT:
16
THE WITNESS:
17
THE COURT:
18
THE WITNESS:
Ilhwan Yum?
Yum, yes.
Y-U-M?
Yes.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
MR. HOWARD:
22
23
Q.
24
A.
25
F1MGULB1
1
Q.
A.
1054
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD:
Q.
A.
Yes.
var/lib/mysql/market.
Q.
A.
Database files.
10
Q.
What is a database?
11
A.
12
13
way to do it is a database.
14
15
16
search for people, search for things, phone numbers, where you
17
18
can query the database to get all the people that you know that
19
live in New York City but also work at a company here; and the
20
21
22
Q.
23
A.
I did.
24
Q.
25
A.
So a digital
You
F1MGULB1
1
1055
Kiernan - direct
MR. HOWARD:
page.
Q.
A.
Q.
Ms. Rosen.
10
There's
details.
11
12
13
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
correct?
18
A.
19
Q.
20
laptop?
21
A.
22
encryption.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - direct
1056
laptop, you can log out of your laptop, power failure would
that nature.
Q.
A.
the laptop off and put it into a sleep state that would enable
10
11
for.
12
Q.
13
14
computer?
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes.
Yes.
So I did a listing of
F1MGULB1
1057
Kiernan - direct
Q.
And what would have happened if you had not been able to
keep the laptop alive while you were performing your triage?
A.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Mr. Dratel.
MR. DRATEL:
It would have
10
CROSS-EXAMINATION
11
BY MR. DRATEL:
12
Q.
13
A.
Good morning.
14
Q.
15
16
way, the encryption, when you talked about closing the laptop
17
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
right?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
That's right.
25
Q.
By the
F1MGULB1
1058
Kiernan - cross
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
guess, yes.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And in fact, Mr. Ulbricht was sitting not where that person
That's fine.
10
is, but he was actually sitting with his back to where we are
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
correct?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
Several times.
20
Q.
Yes.
21
22
23
A.
24
Q.
Sure.
25
F1MGULB1
1059
Kiernan - cross
that page.
A.
Sure.
Q.
Mr. Ulbricht's back was to you and he was looking out the
window?
A.
yes.
I don't know what these are, but that's what it says there,
10
Q.
11
12
13
right?
14
A.
Correct, yes.
15
Q.
16
17
18
TorChat, right?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
22
23
If
The
24
25
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - cross
1060
to me.
would be for them to watch you log in and do your work," right?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
So if we could go further.
it," right?
Yes?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
having his back to anyone who could sneak up behind him, right?
13
MR. HOWARD:
14
THE COURT:
Objection; speculation.
Sustained.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
21
against the window because the other two people would have to
22
23
A.
24
Q.
25
case that he had his back to you looking out the window?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1MGULB1
Kiernan - cross
A.
It's here.
Q.
A.
Yeah, I mean.
document.
1061
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
OK.
Kiernan - cross
Q.
1062
part, so it says:
use.
10
A.
That is correct.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
right?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
You have taken courses; you have trained that way, right?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
25
key?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
1063
Kiernan - cross
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Objection to form.
Sustained.
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
A.
key.
No.
If you
10
11
Q.
12
13
MR. HOWARD:
14
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained.
15
Q.
16
17
MR. HOWARD:
18
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained.
19
Q.
20
computer?
21
A.
I don't --
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
was doing it, I would have an encrypted laptop and keep my key
So if I
F1mdulb2
1064
Kiernan - cross
there, and when I turned off my laptop the key would be safe.
Q.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained.
Q.
defendant's laptop."
A.
10
laptop.
11
Q.
Right.
12
A.
13
Q.
Right.
14
A.
That is correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
19
Mr. Beeson gave you a hard drive that was not the hard drive
20
21
A.
That is correct.
22
Q.
And then you made a copy of that and worked off of that?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
In other words,
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
A.
That's correct.
Q.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
1065
Objection to form.
Overruled.
A.
I did, yes.
Q.
And when you -- and when you say "designers," that doesn't
10
people?
11
A.
12
Q.
The way the site appears, the names of fields and the way
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
19
20
Yes.
MR. DRATEL:
21
Go further up.
22
(Pause)
Go to the metadata.
23
Q.
So this is the one where your phone -- you are taking this
24
25
A.
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
1066
Q.
A.
It does, yes.
Q.
time, right?
A.
It does, yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
Right?
10
A.
11
Q.
Right.
12
13
are?
14
A.
That's correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
It is.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
I do.
20
Q.
21
22
held?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
training?
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
1067
A.
Q.
Yes.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
like that.
10
Q.
Now, by the way, the photos that we've seen that you've put
11
in evidence were not the only photos that you took of the
12
laptop, correct?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
15
identification.
16
No.
17
A.
OK.
18
Q.
19
A.
I do.
20
Q.
21
A.
It is, yes.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Yes, it is.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
1068
Q.
10
A.
It does, yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
yes.
14
Q.
15
that means?
16
A.
17
allows you to upload and download files that you want to look
18
at.
19
pull.
20
21
Q.
22
that, correct?
23
A.
It is, yes.
24
Q.
25
And it is very popular for music and movies and things like
F1mdulb2
1069
Kiernan - cross
A.
Q.
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
question.
A.
That's fine.
Q.
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
your computer that they want to share, they can take them from
14
15
A.
16
17
18
but you designate spots that you can download from -- not put
19
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
peers," right?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Not that easy but you have to give the Torrent to them to
It
"Sending to 7 of 9 connected
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
1070
A.
To --
Q.
A.
Q.
Right.
A.
Q.
right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
megabytes, right?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yeah.
18
but yeah.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
process is going on, means that the port was open at that time,
25
right?
You do.
And the fact that he's downloading at that time, that that
F1mdulb2
1071
Kiernan - cross
A.
It was connected.
Q.
And that you know from your training makes one vulnerable,
computer vulnerable?
A.
to work.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
right; all sorts of things can get into your computer through
15
BitTorrent?
16
17
A.
18
Q.
Yes.
19
A.
20
Q.
I'm sorry.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Yes.
Programs?
F1mdulb2
1072
Kiernan - cross
A.
Q.
correct?
A.
That's incorrect.
It is not easier.
It gives you
It is the
Yes.
10
Q.
11
machine at work?
12
THE COURT:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
1073
Kiernan - cross
THE COURT:
qualified to do that.
MR. DRATEL:
10
THE COURT:
11
12
direct.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
All right?
MR. DRATEL:
I have no
It is
his direct.
THE COURT:
Absolutely.
allows BitTorrent?
MR. DRATEL:
20
21
22
23
24
25
F1mdulb2
1074
Kiernan - cross
MR. DRATEL:
question of security.
someone who --
THE COURT:
Let's go back.
Thank you.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
1
Kiernan - cross
1075
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
system, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Oh, yes.
10
Q.
And you talked about the Tor chats that you created as a
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
A.
Sure.
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
on your part?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
F1mdulb2
1076
Kiernan - cross
A.
Sure.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And there are programs that can wipe away even any trace of
A.
Yes.
Q.
ones -- and, again, Mr. Howard read them, you didn't read them,
10
11
12
A.
That's right.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
separated by time?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
21
reading them into evidence, but initially the line that says
22
the log file is not signed and has no cogency of proof; do you
23
recall that?
24
A.
I do, yes.
25
Q.
F1mdulb2
1077
Kiernan - cross
chat, right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Objection.
I will allow it.
A.
I'm sorry.
Q.
Sure.
10
A.
11
Q.
Right.
12
OK.
13
14
A.
15
16
Q.
17
roughly?
18
A.
19
Q.
20
THE COURT:
Hold on.
21
22
23
if you care.
24
25
MR. DRATEL:
trying to be precise.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
I was just
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
A.
Q.
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And that is basically true for all the text files we saw,
1078
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
hitting the back button, right, from the screen that was on the
20
21
A.
That's right.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Where?
25
Q.
On the laptop?
F1mdulb2
1079
Kiernan - cross
A.
Yes.
Q.
And do you know whether a user logging into the Silk Road
site, using the password and username for the Dread Pirate
mastermind page?
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
(Pause)
10
THE COURT:
Objection.
Hold on.
11
A.
12
Q.
Sure.
13
14
15
16
A.
I don't know.
17
Q.
18
19
that?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
From the image that you were given of the laptop, right?
24
A.
25
Do you recognize
MR. HOWARD:
Objection to foundation.
F1mdulb2
1
Kiernan - cross
THE COURT:
concrete foundation.
MR. DRATEL:
1080
Sure.
Q.
investigation, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
the laptop image that you -- of Mr. Ulbricht's laptop that you
14
reviewed, right?
15
A.
Yes.
16
MR. HOWARD:
17
THE COURT:
Objection.
18
19
questions.
OK.
20
MR. DRATEL:
21
22
MR. HOWARD:
23
THE COURT:
Objection.
Well, I think that I'm going to receive it
24
subject to connection.
25
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
sufficient foundation.
4
5
1081
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
10
BY MR. DRATEL:
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
A.
I don't know.
19
Q.
20
A.
Like you said, I could read the php script and I could
21
tell.
22
Q.
I'm sorry.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
I don't know.
You said you could read the php script?
F1mdulb2
1082
Kiernan - cross
of like Windows --
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
It is, yes.
Q.
essentially, a website?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
the way that website appears, its fields, that's the php part,
15
right?
16
A.
17
But
Yes.
THE COURT:
All right.
18
19
20
21
22
THE CLERK:
23
THE COURT:
24
25
Thank you.
take a break.
THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
F1mdulb2
1
Kiernan - cross
(Continued on next page)
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
1083
F1mdulb2
1
THE COURT:
1084
Kiernan - cross
All right.
all be seated.
the scope, I have allowed you some room, but what you can't do
10
11
12
13
14
the username.
15
16
17
MR. DRATEL:
He testified
18
19
20
21
THE COURT:
22
direct.
23
24
25
about.
F1mdulb2
1
4
5
MR. DRATEL:
It
That is
MR. DRATEL:
1085
Kiernan - cross
witness.
10
11
Go after that.
12
13
14
15
MR. DRATEL:
16
17
18
19
20
THE COURT:
That's it.
He puts in a
Sometimes it does.
It depends.
And so
21
22
23
24
25
F1mdulb2
1
1086
Kiernan - cross
MR. DRATEL:
He is not an expert.
an expert.
yesterday.
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
That does not make him -I can't be limited to just -- then I have
about.
10
No.
11
12
13
14
15
16
or not he's reading the directory and the file paths correctly.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
MR. DRATEL:
just want to now establish that it's in the laptop -THE COURT:
24
MR. DRATEL:
25
THE COURT:
F1mdulb2
1
1087
Kiernan - cross
view.
MR. HOWARD:
absolutely right.
of the cross-examination.
that sort.
further than the scope of Mr. Kiernan's direct, which was just
10
11
evidence.
12
13
14
MR. DRATEL:
He didn't.
He went further.
He talked
15
16
17
18
Absolutely.
19
20
are now going to find other kinds of php material which would
21
22
23
24
25
You need a
But we are
F1mdulb2
1088
Kiernan - cross
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
OK.
So --
And if you are able to stay within the scope of the direct,
saying.
10
11
I wanted to
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
Let's take our own break and then we'll come back.
20
THE CLERK:
21
(Recess)
22
THE COURT:
23
All rise.
All right.
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
1
THE CLERK:
(Jury present)
THE COURT:
1089
Kiernan - cross
All rise as the jury enters.
When you
MR. DRATEL:
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
you create the Tor chat that showed that myself was you, right,
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
Q.
Do you know how Mr. Ulbricht's laptop was set up, in other
18
19
installed?
20
A.
No.
21
Q.
22
meaning -- withdrawn.
23
You
24
correct?
25
A.
Yes.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
Q.
of variables?
1090
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Objection to form.
Sustained.
Q.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
k-e-r-n-e-l?
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
17
MR. HOWARD:
18
THE COURT:
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. DRATEL:
22
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained.
23
Q.
24
25
F1mdulb2
Kiernan - cross
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained.
Q.
10
MR. HOWARD:
11
THE COURT:
12
Sustained.
direct.
13
MR. DRATEL:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. DRATEL:
16
THE COURT:
17
questioning.
18
BY MR. DRATEL:
19
Q.
20
21
22
Sustained.
Can I have another sidebar, please?
No.
So you don't know if the kernel that Mr. Ulbricht had -THE COURT:
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Q.
1091
F1mdulb2
1092
Kiernan - cross
A.
Q.
Oh, OK.
the Tor chat elements in it and you just put it right in on the
machine, right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
OK.
10
11
MR. HOWARD:
Objection.
They can
foundation.
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. DRATEL:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. DRATEL:
16
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Your Honor, it's not beyond the scope.
Sustained.
May I be heard?
No.
17
break.
18
BY MR. DRATEL:
19
Q.
20
don't know that the way that you installed Tor chat on your
21
computer and the version of Tor chat was the same as that on
22
23
A.
24
That's right.
(Continued on next page)
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb3
1093
Kiernan - cross
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
the elements of one set of events so that you can match them to
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
9
10
Q.
Sustained.
11
12
Objection.
THE COURT:
experiment he did.
13
MR. DRATEL:
14
THE COURT:
Yes.
No.
15
16
experiment he did.
17
18
MR. DRATEL:
That's
19
THE COURT:
Try again.
20
Q.
21
experiment, correct?
22
A.
23
get, yes.
24
Q.
25
A.
F1mgulb3
1094
Kiernan - cross
wanted to make sure that the log files, what directory they
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
A.
That's right.
18
Q.
19
that you did, if you don't know what went into it, how can you
20
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
had, right?
Nothing
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - cross
1095
A.
Q.
Right.
A.
Q.
dates, right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
C time, right?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
of a file, right?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
That's right.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
A.
Accessed.
24
Q.
25
F1mgulb3
1096
Kiernan - cross
do?
A.
Q.
A.
2010 I believe.
Q.
A.
ExT4; yes.
Q.
A.
Oh, yes.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
It's not the last time that metadata associated with the
12
13
system?
14
A.
No.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
There is.
21
Q.
22
23
system, right?
24
A.
25
Q.
Touch files.
A date, a
F1mgulb3
1097
Kiernan - cross
time.
A.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
And the Tor chat files are ordinary text files that can be
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And the files that you took off the computer, you said you
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
Q.
Right.
24
A.
The image is from the laptop, right, it's from the image
25
that he created.
Right?
It verifies the time that the files were there and created
Sure.
F1mgulb3
1098
Kiernan - cross
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
computer to the image you got from him and they matched, right?
A.
Yes, yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
That's in a
10
different -- that was on the hard drive that came back that was
11
12
Q.
13
14
right?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
option?
18
A.
I'm sorry.
19
Q.
20
21
machine?
22
A.
Sure.
23
Q.
And you don't know whether closing the laptop would have
24
25
You
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - cross
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Well, correct.
Q.
8
9
1099
MR. DRATEL:
hearsay.
10
THE COURT:
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
16
a file and make another MD5 with the same number, but with two
17
different files.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
201, whichever.
22
Yes.
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - cross
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
1100
Standard.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
read yesterday.
15
16
17
finally the sale came to a close. I made about $30k off the
18
whole thing, and could finally start trading again. I had been
19
20
21
22
trading.
23
life. Donny had gotten a job offer from his brother in Dallas
24
25
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - cross
1101
point that he was making around $6k per month in sales. He made
take over and run the business going forward. I took the deal
and we went to work on it. By the end of the year, we had our
second -- right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
11
12
13
14
15
handed.
16
17
broke down and realized my love for people again, and started
18
19
20
Let's go to 240B.
21
A.
It does.
22
Q.
23
24
25
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - cross
1102
tried to work with him but I think he lost interest and since I
start.
As it was, I cashed out all the way up and all the way
8
9
10
No.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
11
12
13
A.
I did.
14
Q.
15
right?
16
A.
Never physical.
17
Q.
18
A.
That's right.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
That's right.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb3
1103
Kiernan - cross
Q.
started.
panic.
the bleeding.
10
Let's go up.
how it worked.
11
This
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
online."
21
22
A.
Oh.
You're asking?
23
Q.
IRL?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
I'm sorry.
DA is asking "myself," I guess that's
F1mgulb3
1
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
1104
Kiernan - cross
Objection; foundation.
Overruled.
MR. DRATEL:
Sure.
Q.
A.
Q.
online," right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
THE COURT:
Hold on.
15
meant by these people, but he can say what the word "IRL" means
16
to him.
17
Q.
18
19
THE COURT:
Hold on.
My
20
He didn't do it yesterday.
21
to do it today.
22
that.
23
Q.
24
Road by your forum presence and then track down who you bought
25
from, and sold to under that name and then find you irl."
F1mgulb3
1
1105
Kiernan - cross
A.
Yes.
Q.
security - all the things in there was all accurate, wasn't it?
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Q.
Sustained.
10
MR. HOWARD:
11
THE COURT:
12
Q.
13
information?
14
Objection.
Objection.
Sustained.
THE COURT:
15
A.
Personally, no.
16
Q.
17
persons, correct?
18
A.
Correct.
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
THE COURT:
21
Any redirect?
22
MR. HOWARD:
23
24
25
Nothing further.
Thank you.
All right.
Redirect examination.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
It
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - redirect
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
correct, BitTorrent?
A.
I did.
Q.
A.
It was, yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
You can --
10
MR. DRATEL:
Objection.
11
THE COURT:
12
Sustained.
You had better state very
13
carefully with only the limited amount that was opened by the
14
defendant.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And what folder did that indicate the files would go?
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
1106
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - redirect
1107
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
correct?
A.
I did.
Q.
A.
I have.
10
Q.
And have the logs of those Tor chats been true and accurate
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
correct?
16
A.
I did.
17
MR. DRATEL:
Objection.
18
THE COURT:
19
Overruled.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
Correct, yes.
24
Q.
25
he was arrested, would you have been able to access the Tor
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb3
1
Kiernan - redirect
chat files?
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
A.
Objection; objection.
I will allow it.
No.
5
6
1108
MR. HOWARD:
No further questions.
THE COURT:
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Mr. Dratel.
10
BY MR. DRATEL:
11
Q.
12
laptop, correct?
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
Q.
No.
18
A.
Personal, no.
19
MR. HOWARD:
No further questions.
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. HOWARD:
Pardon me.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
But you can't sit here now and testify that you know all of
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb3
Kiernan - recross
1109
A.
Q.
Right.
A.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
Right.
11
12
A.
That's right.
13
Q.
14
15
malicious --
16
A.
Possible.
17
Q.
18
19
MR. HOWARD:
Objection.
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. DRATEL:
22
THE COURT:
23
24
MR. HOWARD:
25
Sustained.
I have nothing further.
Thank you.
Yes.
F1mgulb3
1
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
THE COURT:
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
11
12
THE WITNESS:
13
(Witness excused)
14
THE COURT:
No further
Thank you.
Thank you.
witness, please.
16
17
Withdrawn.
questions.
10
15
1110
Kiernan - recross
MR. HOWARD:
Greg Fine.
18
(Witness sworn)
19
THE COURT:
And it will
20
21
microphone so that you can speak clearly and directly into the
22
mic.
23
THE WITNESS:
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. TURNER:
Thank you.
Mr. Turner, you may proceed.
Thank you.
F1mgulb3
1
Kiernan - redirect
1111
GREGORY FINE,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TURNER:
Q.
Thank you.
A.
Good afternoon.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
I was.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
residence?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
A.
F1mgulb3
Fine - direct
Q.
Like?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes.
12
MR. TURNER:
13
THE COURT:
14
Q.
15
Exhibit 502.
1112
May I approach.
You may.
16
17
A.
I do.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
A.
On the nightstand.
23
Q.
And what did you do with them after you found them?
24
A.
25
F1mgulb3
1
Fine - direct
Francisco.
MR. TURNER:
THE COURT:
Mr. Dratel.
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
(Witness excused)
THE COURT:
10
Thank you.
witness, please.
11
MR. HOWARD:
12
THE COURT:
13
(Pause)
14
THE COURT:
15
(Witness sworn)
16
THE COURT:
17
18
Mr. Bates.
19
Mr. Howard.
20
MR. HOWARD:
21
22
23
24
1113
DIRECT EXAMINATION
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb3
Bates - direct
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
A.
Good afternoon.
Q.
A.
I am 31 years old.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
I am a software engineer.
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes, I am.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
He studied physics.
25
Q.
1114
F1mgulb3
Bates - direct
1115
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
A.
5
6
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
So reflected.
Q.
A.
Okay.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes, he did.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
website.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
drugs.
18
Q.
And why did the defendant share this secret with you?
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained.
21
Q.
Did you provide -- did the defendant tell you why he told
22
23
A.
24
programming assistance.
25
Q.
F1mgulb3
1116
Bates - direct
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
A.
I knew for a while and that went on into the summer of 2011.
Q.
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
What happened?
19
A.
20
said, you know, I didn't know that he was working on the Silk
21
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
And I
F1mgulb3
Bates - direct
1117
A.
Yes, I am.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
meet with prosecutors, to tell them the truth, and to tell the
Q.
10
11
A.
12
The technical assistance that I gave Ross that he used to, you
13
know, run the Silk Road; they will not prosecute me for the
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
drugs.
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
At what time?
25
Q.
After 2011.
F1mgulb3
1118
Bates - direct
A.
Q.
A.
I learned about the Silk Road when Ross told me about it.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
antibiotics.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
those mushrooms?
16
A.
17
18
at some point --
Yes, I do.
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
THE COURT:
21
22
THE WITNESS:
23
THE COURT:
24
THE WITNESS:
25
A.
I tried a very
Objection.
Sustained.
Do I just continue?
Just pick up.
Okay.
F1mgulb3
1119
Bates - direct
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Did the defendant have any discussions with you about where
10
drugs?
11
A.
12
Q.
Now earlier you described that you first met the defendant
13
in college, correct?
14
A.
That is correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
I graduated in 2007.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
Penn State?
25
A.
We kind of stayed in
F1mgulb3
1120
Bates - direct
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
and I said well, who do I know that lives in Austin and I saw
that Ross lived there, and, you know, I remembered we had hung
And I
10
said hey, man, I'm moving down to Austin and we should hang
11
out.
And then after I moved down, we, you know, that's what we
12
did.
We hung out.
13
Q.
And in late 2010, how frequently did you see the defendant?
14
A.
15
Q.
Were you aware of what the defendant did for a living back
16
then?
17
A.
18
business called Good Wagon Books, and I also saw him editing
19
20
21
Q.
22
computer programmer?
23
A.
Yes, he was.
24
Q.
During late 2010, did you have any discussions with the
25
Was the defendant familiar with the fact that you were a
F1mgulb3
1121
Bates - direct
A.
I'm sorry.
Q.
Late 2010?
A.
Late 2010?
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes, I do.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
via text.
Yes.
18
19
MR. HOWARD:
Exhibit 1000.
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. DRATEL:
22
changed.
Mr. Dratel.
I just need to look.
23
24
THE COURT:
25
F1mgulb3
1122
Bates - direct
MR. HOWARD:
message, please.
Q.
baronsyntax@gmail.com."
Chat with
What is baronsyntax@gmail.com?
A.
Q.
10
What is rossulbricht@gmail.com?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
MR. HOWARD:
15
16
here, please.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
"Me: howdy
23
Baronsyntax: hey
24
25
F1mgulb3
1
2
Bates - direct
1123
Emoticon.
"Me: sweet
Emoticon.
"Me: ok
10
Emoticon.
11
12
discussion.
13
14
conversation?
15
A.
16
17
18
him.
19
Q.
20
computer programming?
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
regarding programming?
Yes.
Is this the only time the defendant asked you for help with
F1mgulb3
Bates - direct
1124
A.
Yes.
Q.
During this time period, did you know what the defendant
A.
Q.
That's correct.
A.
Q.
A.
No, I didn't.
10
Q.
11
on?
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
Yes, I do.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD:
Exhibit 1001.
22
MR. DRATEL:
23
THE COURT:
24
GX 1001 is received.
25
F1mgulb3
1
1125
Bates - direct
MR. HOWARD:
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
10
MR. HOWARD:
"Baronsyntax:
11
12
13
14
Me:
particular reason".
15
Baronsyntax:
Yea."
16
Q.
17
A.
18
ultimatum not long after this where I told him that he needs to
19
20
21
hack into some website or something, but the fact that he just
22
23
Q.
24
A.
25
I kind
And he said
F1mgulb3
1126
Bates - direct
something along the lines of, you know, it's a -- I'm working
laptop at the time and he showed me the Silk Road homepage for
Q.
A.
No, he didn't.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
access.
13
Q.
And what did the defendant show you about the website?
14
A.
15
16
Q.
What was your reaction when you first learned about this?
17
MR. DRATEL:
18
THE COURT:
Objection.
Overruled.
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
mean, I didn't know how this, you know, could be even possible.
23
24
25
F1mgulb3
1
Bates - direct
1127
bitcoin.
Q.
before?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
At the time you had this conversation, had you heard of Tor
10
MR. HOWARD:
11
THE COURT:
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes, I do.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
2011.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
approximately?
24
A.
25
Q.
F1mgulb3
Bates - direct
A.
Yes, I am.
Q.
How do you know that this CD, this exhibit, this thing in
A.
right there.
7
8
MR. HOWARD:
Exhibit 1005.
MR. DRATEL:
10
THE COURT:
11
12
MR. HOWARD:
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. HOWARD:
15
No objection.
Received.
recording.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
1128
F1mdulb4
1
2
1129
Bates - direct
MR. HOWARD:
I'm sorry.
recorder.
(Audio played)
THE WITNESS:
(Audio replayed)
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
(Pause)
13
14
A.
Yes, I do.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
MR. HOWARD:
20
MR. DRATEL:
21
THE COURT:
19
22
1006.
GX1006 is
received.
23
24
BY MR. HOWARD:
25
Q.
Now, Mr. Bates, what was the date and time of this
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
1130
conversation?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
correct?
10
A.
That is correct.
11
Q.
And are the parts of the conversation labeled just like the
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
That is correct.
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
21
22
don't know
23
24
25
F1mdulb4
1
1131
Bates - direct
A.
10
11
troubleshoot.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
16
by the defendant.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
F1mdulb4
1132
Bates - direct
Q.
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
A.
me that happened I think a few hours after the last one that we
looked at.
10
MR. HOWARD:
12
MR. DRATEL:
13
THE COURT:
11
14
1007.
GX1007 is
received.
15
MR. HOWARD:
16
17
Q.
18
19
A.
That's correct.
20
Q.
So I'm not going to even try to read the first four lines
21
labeled "baronsyntax."
22
overall here?
23
A.
24
25
server terminal.
F1mdulb4
1133
Bates - direct
know, either a UNIX or Linux program that lists the open files
on a system.
files are open and search for php -- that's what that "grep
php" is.
site is down.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Lsof is a, you
11
"Baronsyntax:
12
"Me:
13
Sounds good."
Emoticon.
14
A.
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
Wi-Fi network?
20
A.
21
again, related to, you know, it not being traceable back to,
22
23
24
us.
25
Q.
It sounds like if I
Why were you telling the defendant that you had an open
This is,
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Exhibit 1008.
1134
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
A.
later in the evening after the one that we just looked at.
10
MR. HOWARD:
12
MR. DRATEL:
13
THE COURT:
11
14
1008.
overruled.
All right.
15
16
THE COURT:
17
18
MR. HOWARD:
Thank you.
19
BY MR. HOWARD:
20
Q.
21
defendant's parts marked in the same way as all the other chats
22
23
A.
24
Q.
25
Now, Mr. Bates, are your parts of the conversation and the
F1mdulb4
1
operation
1135
Bates - direct
Apparently tor
Could be an expensive
10
11
conversation?
12
A.
13
14
know, he's stressed because the Silk Road is still down in some
15
16
Q.
17
A.
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
Yes, I do.
25
Q.
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
A.
me that happened a few days after the last one we looked at.
1136
MR. HOWARD:
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
1002.
8
9
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
have reviewed?
14
A.
That's correct.
15
Q.
And are the parts of the conversation labeled just like all
16
17
A.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
23
24
"Me: yep.
25
F1mdulb4
1
1137
Bates - direct
"Me: sure."
Mr. Bates?
A.
talking about a friend of mine who was looking for work and
Q.
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
21
to
22
23
24
25
F1mdulb4
1
1138
Bates - direct
runs it
THE COURT:
MR. HOWARD:
portion.
10
THE COURT:
All right.
We'll break.
11
12
13
14
15
much.
16
THE CLERK:
17
THE COURT:
18
19
Thank you.
(Continued on next page)
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb4
1
THE COURT:
3
4
1139
Bates - direct
Let's
all be seated.
I've got a couple of things.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
bathroom is not for the truth, but there are portions which may
18
19
20
And in terms of
21
22
23
MR. DRATEL:
24
25
F1mdulb4
1140
Bates - direct
his testimony, which was predicate to all the Tor chats, which
was that by setting up Tor chat and then creating some chats,
chats.
It is directly
10
11
12
13
a gas mileage experiment with cars and you use two different
14
types of gasoline.
15
couldn't do it.
16
And I
17
18
my burden.
19
I have no burden.
THE COURT:
It's not
I am
20
21
what was within the scope of direct and what was outside of the
22
23
24
25
F1mdulb4
1
1141
Bates - direct
My point for you, Mr. Dratel, is to the extent the
that, or not.
the facts which the jury will use to determine whether or not
8
9
10
It was
Mr. Howard.
11
MR. HOWARD:
12
13
14
the witness knew for sure about whether the burdens were
15
correct.
16
17
18
19
All right.
20
21
22
It is a criminal matter.
So I'll
23
24
MR. TURNER:
25
THE COURT:
I do
F1mdulb4
1142
Bates - direct
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
10
11
12
13
MR. TURNER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. TURNER:
16
THE COURT:
Alleyne, A-l-l-e-y-n-e.
It holds that if
17
18
19
20
21
22
those need to be called out, but they are not on the proposed
23
verdict form.
24
MR. HOWARD:
25
THE COURT:
Thank you.
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
All right.
THE CLERK:
All rise.
(Luncheon recess)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
1143
F1mdulb4
1
A F T E R N O O N
2
3
1144
Bates - direct
S E S S I O N
2:05 p.m.
RICHARD BATES,
THE COURT:
All right.
THE CLERK:
(Jury present)
THE COURT:
10
All right.
all be seated.
11
12
13
14
15
16
in a criminal case from the beginning and all the way through.
17
He is not required to
18
to call any witnesses, and any comments of mine that may have
19
20
disregard.
21
All right.
22
23
MR. HOWARD:
24
BY MR. HOWARD:
25
Q.
Thank you.
F1mdulb4
1
A.
1145
Bates - direct
Good afternoon.
MR. HOWARD:
lunch break?
5
6
THE WITNESS:
exhibits in them.
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
MR. HOWARD:
10
You may.
So, Mr. Evert, could you please zoom in
13
14
11
12
to
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
"Me: coo."
24
25
conversation?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb4
1146
Bates - direct
A.
him if it's OK if I just tell people that I know that the Silk
it.
Q.
7
8
9
10
11
12
"baronsyntax: gotcha.
15
16
soon."
13
14
MR. DRATEL:
itself.
17
THE COURT:
18
19
A.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
1147
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
Can you please flip in your binder to what has been marked
5
6
1003?
Oh, yes.
MR. HOWARD:
MR. DRATEL:
10
THE COURT:
7
8
11
1003.
12
MR. DRATEL:
13
THE COURT:
14
overruled.
15
Yes.
All right.
GX1003 is received.
16
BY MR. HOWARD:
17
Q.
18
A.
19
MR. HOWARD:
20
conversation, please.
21
Q.
22
:])
Thank you.
23
"Me: :)
24
25
F1mdulb4
1148
Bates - direct
"Me: quieter
"Me: sp?
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
A.
The joke was that I told everybody that -- about the Silk
14
Road and told everyone that I know the guy who runs the Silk
15
16
involvement.
17
Q.
18
19
correct?
20
A.
That is correct.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
I remember
F1mdulb4
1149
Bates - direct
of Web design.
bit.
Q.
Are you familiar with what a computer server is, Mr. Bates?
A.
Yes, I am.
Q.
servers?
A.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
very heavily drinking, and I was at the bar and Ross came up to
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
asking you?
17
A.
18
19
he had.
20
21
22
23
and he told me the workload was becoming too much and he would
24
25
Q.
There was one time, granted, Ross and I had both been
I turned back to
Did the defendant talk to you about -- tell you why he was
Yes.
F1mdulb4
1150
Bates - direct
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Primarily, I recall
10
there was a news article about Chuck Schumer, you know, telling
11
12
of 2011.
13
apartment and I told him, "You know, they're looking for you,
14
right?"
15
16
17
him where I said, "You know, hey, have you ever thought about
18
19
20
me.
21
that project.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
Q.
F1mdulb4
1151
Bates - direct
Silk Road?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
stop --
7
8
MR. DRATEL:
A.
Objection.
THE COURT:
10
Sustained.
THE WITNESS:
Don't assume.
OK.
11
BY MR. HOWARD:
12
Q.
13
Can you flip in your binder at what has been marked for
14
THE COURT:
15
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
timeframe.
20
Q.
21
A.
A.
22
23
24
25
other programmers.
To be specific, we
I wanted to vet
F1mdulb4
1152
Bates - direct
also having a job at the same time, which, you know, would make
Q.
A.
sent me a contract.
Q.
exchange project?
He
10
A.
November of 2011.
11
Q.
And during the time that you were involved in that project,
12
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
Can you please flip in your binder to what has been marked
15
16
17
A.
Yes, I do.
18
Q.
What is this?
19
A.
20
MR. HOWARD:
21
22
Q.
23
labeled?
24
A.
25
Q.
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
labeled as?
A.
Q.
4
5
"r: Hey man, I've got an idea how we both can make a
little bit of money
"r: You don't have a job besides the site right now,
8
9
1153
do you?
"myself: nope
10
"r: ok, hear me out. If it's not your bag, that's fine
11
"myself: right on
12
13
14
sell it and take care of packaging and I give you 20% and you
15
16
17
"r: haha
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
F1mdulb4
1
local services
2
3
1154
Bates - direct
conversation?
A.
During this --
9
10
MR. DRATEL:
Objection.
itself.
11
THE COURT:
12
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
Sorry.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
16
could sell them on eBay and package them and deal with taking
17
18
MR. HOWARD:
19
20
21
No, on
(Pause)
22
Q.
23
24
25
"Nope."
F1mdulb4
1155
Bates - direct
A.
Q.
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
Objection.
Overruled.
A.
Umm, at the time I knew he had some money and I did know
that he was receiving some money from Silk Road and from the
bitcoin.
10
Q.
11
Road?
12
A.
13
when.
14
Q.
15
Road?
16
A.
17
18
19
And how do you know that he was receiving money from Silk
And did he ever explain to you how he got money from Silk
MR. HOWARD:
So
the excerpts.
20
21
22
23
On an unrelated note,
24
25
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
"myself: rly!!!
"myself: ha!
place?
"r: dude . . .
10
11
12
13
14
15
place or yours?
"r: either one.
16
"r: sure
17
18
19
20
21
1156
22
23
24
"myself: cya."
25
F1mdulb4
1157
Bates - direct
conversation?
A.
So starting --
MR. HOWARD:
A.
MDMA.
10
they were charging more than Silk Road was because he was
11
running --
12
MR. DRATEL:
13
THE COURT:
14
A.
Objection.
Overruled.
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
Austin.
24
Q.
25
And I
Yes.
Are you
F1mdulb4
1
1158
Bates - direct
Did you see the defendant that day?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
A.
by asking me, you know, have you told anybody about, you know,
10
Ross showed up
He started
11
12
who knew about his involvement had posted to his Facebook wall
13
14
15
And at
16
that point I told him you've got to shut the site down.
This
17
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
story?
23
A.
He was nervous.
24
Q.
And did the defendant tell you about who else he had told
25
F1mdulb4
Bates - direct
1159
A.
Q.
believe him?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
2011, did you have any further discussions about Silk Road with
the defendant?
A.
Yes, I did.
10
Q.
When the defendant told you that he sold the site, did you
11
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
about Silk Road usually when there was some sort of problem
21
22
23
glad, you know, that you don't have to deal with this anymore.
24
Q.
25
And so later did you have any discussions about Silk Road
Yeah.
Can you please flip in your binder to what has been marked
F1mdulb4
1160
Bates - direct
(Pause)
A.
MR. HOWARD:
MR. DRATEL:
No objection.
THE COURT:
Yes, I do.
1004.
10
Received.
MR. HOWARD:
11
12
Q.
13
A.
14
MR. HOWARD:
15
section here.
16
Q.
17
labeled?
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
"Me: negative
23
24
25
F1mdulb4
1
1161
Bates - direct
problem anymore :)
"Baronsyntax@gmail.com: yes
5
6
"Baronsyntax@gmail.com: yup.
of the conversation?
10
A.
11
12
13
remember exactly what the article was about but I know it was
14
15
At some point Ross had asked me not to send him links about
I don't
16
17
still a secret but when I turn 65, long after the statute of
18
19
20
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
22
MR. HOWARD:
23
THE COURT:
24
Mr. Dratel.
25
21
Maybe not.
Yes.
No further questions, your Honor.
All right.
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb4
Bates - cross
1162
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
A.
Good afternoon.
Q.
And the first time you met with the government was
A.
Q.
And that was very soon after Mr. Ulbricht had been
arrested, right?
A.
That is correct.
10
Q.
11
A.
That is correct.
12
Q.
13
A.
That's correct.
14
Q.
And they asked you about Mr. Ulbricht and Silk Road, right?
15
A.
16
Q.
17
site?
18
A.
That's correct.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes, I did.
21
Q.
And you said you had no idea that Mr. Ulbricht was
22
23
A.
That is correct.
24
Q.
And that you had no idea what Mr. Ulbricht was doing with
25
F1mdulb4
1163
Bates - cross
A.
Q.
And you also said that you didn't know anything about
A.
Q.
I recall differently.
I show you what's been marked as 3513 -- sorry, 3513 -I ask you to look at the end of
10
A.
OK.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
(Pause)
16
A.
OK.
17
Q.
And did you not tell the government, or did you not deny
18
19
business?
20
A.
21
22
MR. HOWARD:
23
THE COURT:
24
MR. DRATEL:
25
Objection.
Sustained.
Let me just point to the part of the
F1mdulb4
1
2
3
4
Bates - cross
MR. HOWARD:
Objection.
request a sidebar?
To be clear, there has been no foundation that -- I
think it is probably better for us all to have a sidebar.
THE COURT:
All right.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
1164
F1mdulb4
1165
Bates - cross
MR. HOWARD:
MR. DRATEL:
impeaching him.
adopts it.
10
There was no
He improperly is trying
I'm
If he doesn't, he doesn't.
material is.
11
THE COURT:
Let me see.
12
MR. TURNER:
It is those --
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. HOWARD:
15
THE COURT:
16
MR. DRATEL:
17
THE COURT:
18
(Pause)
19
It is just 302?
Yes.
Let me just think about this.
Every judge in this courthouse -I never worry about that.
Never.
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. DRATEL:
Hold on.
But he
F1mdulb4
1
2
3
4
1166
Bates - cross
recollection.
THE COURT:
statement?
MR. DRATEL:
of the witness.
have to be signed.
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
10
THE COURT:
11
MR. DRATEL:
12
THE COURT:
13
14
MR. DRATEL:
15
THE COURT:
16
MR. DRATEL:
17
THE COURT:
18
It doesn't
so you do you.
I can ask him if he -You know it is not a prior -I can -Hold on.
OK?
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. DRATEL:
22
THE COURT:
OK.
Then I will let you finish your sentence.
OK.
Thank you.
23
24
25
Something that is
F1mdulb4
1167
Bates - cross
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
Typically, I think it
No, it doesn't.
I will take a look.
Hold on.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb4
1
THE COURT:
right?
5
6
7
1168
Bates - cross
All
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb5
1169
Bates - cross
THE COURT:
perjury.
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
10
MR. HOWARD:
613.
Now the word "statement" here, Mr. Howard.
Yes, your Honor.
11
defendant's statement.
12
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. HOWARD:
15
16
This is hearsay.
Correct.
So it can't be admitted as extrinsic
Correct.
17
18
19
him I'm showing this to you now, does this refresh your
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. DRATEL:
And he can
F1mgulb5
1
1170
Bates - cross
MR. DRATEL:
No.
proffer interview.
10
THE COURT:
12
MR. DRATEL:
14
And if he says -- if
with it.
11
13
Exactly.
He hasn't answered that question as to
15
statement.
16
inconsistent statement.
17
MR. DRATEL:
18
THE COURT:
It is inconsistent.
You are doing exactly what I had suggested
19
20
21
22
23
24
Or he'll
25
That's
F1mgulb5
1
1171
Bates - cross
MR. DRATEL:
I don't
need 302.
The
3500.
10
material.
11
12
13
there, I can confront the witness with it saying did you not
14
15
16
yes, I did -- or he can say no, and then I'm stuck with it.
17
18
19
THE COURT:
20
MR. HOWARD:
21
22
THE COURT:
23
MR. DRATEL:
24
25
Mr. Howard.
Your Honor, if he proceeds that way,
It's purely
impeachment.
THE COURT:
Purely impeachment.
F1mgulb5
1172
Bates - cross
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
as little time as we can take, get ourselves back here and see
All rise.
(Recess)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb5
1
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
1173
Bates - cross
May I approach,
your Honor.
THE COURT:
Yes.
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
then I'll ask you a question after you've done that, the
underlying sentence.
10
A.
11
Q.
No.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Okay.
16
Q.
17
right around there, that first interview, did you not tell the
18
government that you had no idea that Ross Ulbricht was involved
19
20
A.
21
that time.
22
23
24
Q.
25
Okay.
Thank you.
F1mgulb5
1174
Bates - cross
A.
That is correct.
Q.
agreement, right?
recollection.
A.
Please do.
Q.
I'm sorry.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
Of 2014?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
When you met with the government on November 21, you didn't
15
16
17
A.
That is correct.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Does
MR. HOWARD:
Objection.
F1mgulb5
1175
Bates - cross
THE COURT:
Overruled.
Q.
A.
Yeah.
Q.
A.
have to tell them the truth, come clean, and then maybe we can
10
11
nonprosecution agreement.
12
Q.
13
right?
14
A.
That is correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
No.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
Q.
20
to testify?
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
I'm sorry.
F1mgulb5
1176
Sure.
Bates - cross
Q.
designated investigators?
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
understanding.
Overruled.
Q.
10
A.
I'm sorry.
11
Q.
12
recollection.
13
A.
Yeah.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
16
A.
Okay.
17
Q.
18
19
20
Is this in my agreement?
21
MR. HOWARD:
Objection to form.
22
THE COURT:
23
Q.
24
25
F1mgulb5
1177
Bates - cross
investigators?
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
A.
Q.
recollection --
10
A.
11
MR. HOWARD:
12
THE COURT:
13
14
Objection.
Hold on.
15
BY MR. DRATEL:
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
investigators?
21
THE COURT:
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
F1mgulb5
1178
Bates - cross
agreement, right?
A.
Q.
Sure.
A.
Is it that one?
Q.
Yes.
A.
Okay.
Q.
Sure.
Some of it is not
10
11
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Right.
15
16
that, right?
17
A.
I suppose, yeah.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Correct.
24
25
That's
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
1179
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
money laundering.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
That is correct.
13
Q.
14
15
16
of here, but also all that you've said in your meetings with
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
22
within the statute when you signed the agreement, you could be
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
1180
A.
Q.
as a defendant, right?
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
Objection.
Why don't you rephrase.
Q.
10
A.
That is correct.
11
Q.
And you know -- and you knew when you signed the agreement
12
and you know here today that it's whether the government is
13
14
15
16
satisfied, right?
17
A.
18
attorney, I said to him what if I tell the truth and they don't
19
20
Q.
I don't know.
21
THE COURT:
22
THE WITNESS:
23
THE COURT:
It is a privileged conversation.
I apologize.
Let me explain to you that you have a
24
25
F1mgulb5
1
Bates - cross
1181
your attorney.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Okay.
You can choose to waive that privilege,
but there are lots of implications about that you would want to
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Okay.
So if it's a private conversation between
10
MR. DRATEL:
11
12
THE COURT:
All right.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes, I did.
16
Q.
17
recently, right?
18
A.
I don't know.
19
Q.
Sure.
20
21
22
A.
23
recently.
24
It's possible.
25
Q.
I don't recall.
F1mgulb5
1182
Bates - cross
recently?
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
right?
A.
Q.
time, correct?
10
A.
That is correct.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
Please do.
19
Q.
20
A.
No, I just have the proffer -- yes, okay, this is the one.
21
22
Q.
23
never mind.
Okay.
24
25
Withdrawn.
Okay.
right?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
1183
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
April 2013?
A.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes, it was.
13
Q.
14
15
simultaneously?
16
A.
17
18
19
exchange indirectly.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Sure.
F1mgulb5
1184
Bates - cross
A.
Okay.
Q.
A.
Q.
Look
10
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
That is correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
project, right?
21
A.
22
wasn't signed.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
Q.
A.
did.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Okay.
Q.
1185
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And in fact, you had a Google Chat with Mr. Ulbricht about
12
13
A.
That's correct.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
Q.
Now, you also asked Mr. Ulbricht where you could monitor
21
22
April 2011?
23
A.
24
Q.
No.
25
just review that and then when you have, let me know.
There's another.
F1mgulb5
1186
Bates - cross
A.
I'm sorry.
Q.
Sure.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
And that's April 28, 2011 is when you did that, right?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
And in fact, you had a Google Chat that day about bitcoin?
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
Fifty-seven.
23
talking about.
24
A.
Okay.
25
Q.
Okay.
Okay.
Show you
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
A.
Q.
What is it?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
No.
A.
October 6.
on October 6, 2011.
The sixth.
Okay.
10
MR. DRATEL:
11
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. HOWARD:
14
THE COURT:
15
16
THE COURT:
17
1187
All right.
Any objection?
time.
18
MR. DRATEL:
19
THE COURT:
20
Q.
21
22
this, before October back in the spring of 2011 when you were
23
24
that time?
25
A.
F1mgulb5
1188
Bates - cross
Q.
But you were also interested in the market price for that
A.
Q.
at that time?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
yes.
13
Q.
14
makes it easier for me and I'll give you this one and I'll be
15
16
17
18
A.
Okay.
19
Q.
20
21
can read.
Yeah.
22
Thanks.
So if we go about
19:14.
Okay.
"R" is you, correct, Mr. Bates?
23
A.
24
Q.
25
bitcoin.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb5
1
R:
I'm doing."
1189
Bates - cross
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
"Okay.
this."
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
languages.
14
Myself:
15
Myself:
16
17
A.
18
Q.
"R" is you.
19
"Suweet."
20
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
24
25
R:
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
instance of bitcoind.
R:
Myself:
Okay.
1190
"R:
Okay.
8
9
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
summarize it, you are also talking about making a java wrapper,
13
right?
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Thank you.
21
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
AA.
Go to 1909.
Yes.
Sure.
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
1191
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Very good.
10
11
12
A.
13
Q.
And in April of that year, Mr. Ulbricht told you -- and you
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And Mr. Ulbricht told you that he made $4,000 over one
17
18
appreciation in value?
19
A.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
A.
Sorry.
24
Q.
25
A.
Right?
F1mgulb5
1192
Bates - cross
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
lower price.
In
Let me
10
A.
Okay.
11
Q.
12
May 31, 2011, Mr. Ulbricht told you that he had sold all of his
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
22
in a minute, but since you have this one here now, also,
23
Mr. Ulbricht in June of 2011 told you that he would have made
24
25
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
F1mgulb5
1
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
1193
Bates - cross
Objection; hearsay.
Are you offering it for the truth?
No, your Honor.
All right.
A.
There
10
Mt.Gox's correction.
11
Q.
12
mining, right?
13
A.
14
15
Q.
Yes.
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Yes.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb5
1194
Bates - cross
Q.
A.
Q.
and that other woman as far as you know, the other woman who is
page?
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
knew about it, and I was told about two other people who knew
12
about it.
13
Q.
14
correct?
15
A.
16
we use that.
17
Q.
18
do it, right?
19
A.
20
21
22
the time.
23
24
Q.
25
Google Chat and you said we should be doing this on Tor chat?
You were the person who wanted to switch over to Tor chat,
I was the one who found the program, and I did suggest that
I believe
F1mgulb5
Bates - cross
A.
Q.
it -- withdrawn.
1195
A.
to.
Q.
A.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb6
Bates - cross
1196
Q.
A.
Q.
And so there were a lot fewer chats in 2012 and 2013 than
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
That is correct.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
A.
That is correct.
25
Q.
Did that give you some insight into creating this bitcoin
F1mdulb6
1197
Bates - cross
exchange?
A.
Q.
Was that basically from the ground up, the bitcoin part?
A.
Yeah, the bitcoin exchange would have been from the ground
up.
transaction.
Q.
10
11
12
13
And I
14
15
correct?
16
A.
To my recollection, yes.
17
Q.
Well --
18
A.
Well --
19
Q.
20
A.
Pardon me.
21
went through --
22
Q.
Withdrawn.
23
A.
OK.
24
Q.
25
F1mdulb6
Bates - cross
A.
Q.
And that was about the Good Wagon Books Company that
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
I certainly tried.
11
Q.
12
1198
I think I did.
13
your mind that it's about Good Wagon Books and not Silk Road?
14
A.
15
16
Q.
17
of it, the Perl part of it, is there anything that would lead
18
19
20
A.
21
22
23
Q.
That's right.
24
A.
Umm, I --
25
Q.
Right.
F1mdulb6
1199
Bates - cross
that had anything to do with what you know about Silk Road?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
I believe so.
Q.
different, correct?
A.
asking him what he was working on, and that's when he started
10
11
Q.
12
2011.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes, he did.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Right.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
involved.
24
Q.
25
A.
F1mdulb6
1200
Bates - cross
Q.
A.
Q.
(Pause)
MR. DRATEL:
OK.
OK.
Q.
So when you first saw Silk Road, you said you were
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
chat.
22
23
24
Q.
25
code occasionally?
You compared it to
And he would send you code -- Mr. Ulbricht would send you
F1mdulb6
1201
Bates - cross
A.
Q.
Right.
A.
Q.
Yes.
A.
TorChat that he did send me a zip file that had the php code
review it.
Sorry.
I looked at that.
He asked me to
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
OK.
14
A.
Mm-hmm.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
recollection --
23
A.
24
Q.
25
C-a-k-e, php?
But we can
F1mdulb6
1202
Bates - cross
A.
I believe
Q.
more and more stress, correct, during the period in 2011 now
A.
by the voicemail.
Q.
Yes.
10
too much of his time and he was dealing with crises on the
11
site, right?
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
A.
That's my opinion.
16
Q.
Yes.
17
18
A.
19
remember that on November 11th I did tell him to shut down the
20
site.
21
Q.
22
and other times that you met him in person that he was stressed
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And you told him that you thought it was a good idea
I do
F1mdulb6
1203
Bates - cross
A.
That's possible.
remember?
Q.
highlighted portion.
A.
I'm not sure based on the context if this is about Silk Road or
10
Q.
11
some other trips, you were in touch with him in May of 2012,
12
correct?
13
A.
14
Q.
And you chatted with him and you asked him how he was doing
15
16
A.
17
sounds right.
18
(Pause)
19
MR. DRATEL:
20
(Pause)
I'm sorry.
21
Q.
22
Mr. Ulbricht certain articles or links that you had seen about
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Right.
F1mdulb6
1204
Bates - cross
A.
Yes.
Q.
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
1004?
interesting."
10
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
Not TorChat?
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
This is on --
Glad
Right?
17
Road, correct?
18
A.
That is correct.
19
Q.
20
emoticon to be?
21
A.
22
Q.
As in happy, right?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
F1mdulb6
1205
Bates - cross
A.
happy.
Q.
Right?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
(Pause)
11
THE COURT:
12
13
for something?
14
15
MR. DRATEL:
I appreciate it.
16
THE COURT:
Let's do that.
17
18
before.
19
tomorrow, on Friday.
20
21
22
So when we break at 5, it
But for right now
23
THE CLERK:
24
THE COURT:
25
F1mdulb6
1206
Bates - cross
THE COURT:
MR. TURNER:
THE COURT:
MR. TURNER:
compact.
THE COURT:
MR. TURNER:
So I am hopeful we can
10
finish with him today so that he doesn't have to fly back here
11
Monday.
12
THE COURT:
13
14
15
16
17
So we can't
18
MR. DRATEL:
19
THE COURT:
20
21
out.
22
23
24
possible.
25
All right?
THE CLERK:
All rise.
So we
F1mdulb6
1207
Bates - cross
(Recess)
THE COURT:
It is always
gathered again.
up.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb6
1208
Bates - cross
THE CLERK:
THE COURT:
OK.
MR. DRATEL:
All right.
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
10
11
12
So I'm
I just ask you to look at that and then I'll ask you a
question.
13
(Pause)
14
15
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Thank you.
19
did right before the break, which is in May of 2012, when you
20
21
22
A.
23
Yes.
24
25
of in a row.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb6
Bates - cross
MR. HOWARD:
THE COURT:
1209
Q.
you reached out to Mr. Ulbricht and said "How are you doing"
A.
Yes.
Q.
Thank you.
government, did you ever bring them your laptop for review?
A.
No.
10
Q.
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
Ever bring them anything you ever worked on, any computer
13
14
A.
No.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
At which time?
19
Q.
20
in October of 2013, there were two people who knew about your
21
22
A.
Mm-hmm.
23
Q.
24
A.
In 2012?
25
Q.
F1mdulb6
1210
Bates - cross
A.
mine in 2011.
Q.
Is that Shelli?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Didn't she say she didn't want to hear any more about it
A.
I don't remember.
10
Q.
Maybe.
11
12
MR. DRATEL:
Maybe.
Thank you.
13
THE COURT:
14
15
MR. HOWARD:
16
We
Thank you.
of this witness.
17
THE COURT:
18
(Witness excused)
19
THE COURT:
20
21
MR. HOWARD:
All right.
All right.
22
government would like to read just one Tor chat excerpt that is
23
24
25
THE COURT:
All right.
this?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
1211
F1mdulb6
1
2
MR. HOWARD:
it up.
It is 226D, as in dog.
Page 59 of 1,096.
December 9, 2011:
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
work someday?
16
17
I'll prob never speak to again, and the other I'll drift away
18
from."
19
20
21
22
23
spaceballs and the last 3/4 of the Princess Bride and all of
24
25
1212
F1mdulb6
1
get.
"myself:
"vj: and over the years, a new one would take the
"myself: yep
Pirate Roberts
10
11
12
13
it.
14
things, you are the weak link from those two prev contacts
15
16
17
MR. TURNER:
18
19
stand.
20
THE COURT:
All right.
21
THE CLERK:
22
Mr. Beeson.
23
24
25
THE CLERK:
1213
F1mdulb6
1
2
3
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
And it will
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Very good.
All right.
Thank you.
Mr. Turner.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
10
BY MR. TURNER:
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
special agent.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Examiner.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Computer forensics.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb6
1214
Beeson - direct
Q.
Francisco?
A.
Yes, I am.
Q.
A.
So identify particular
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
office?
15
A.
16
17
Q.
OK.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Francisco.
24
Q.
25
A.
F1mdulb6
Beeson - direct
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
residence?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
1215
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Did that include Thomas Kiernan from the New York field
15
office?
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
the bedrooms.
20
Q.
21
22
When you have a chance to look at it, can you tell me,
23
24
A.
I do.
25
Q.
And how does this laptop compare to the one you saw
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb6
Beeson - direct
1216
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
of the data that's on the laptop; basically, copy the data off
12
of it.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
FBI office.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
22
23
Right?
24
25
remove the hard drive, and we're going to copy all the data
F1mdulb6
1217
Beeson - direct
that is on the hard drive off to one of our own hard drives or
Q.
A.
Well, when file systems are live and up and running, the
drive.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
Why not?
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
Right?
17
And so what we do is
It was
18
19
Q.
20
laptop.
21
A.
22
23
24
called a Tarball.
25
It is
F1mdulb6
1
1218
Beeson - direct
You see, in
Q.
becoming encrypted?
A.
So when you got it, you said it was encrypted but do you
10
11
12
13
copied.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
OK.
F1mdulb6
1219
Beeson - direct
Linux.
Q.
A.
Essentially, yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
So what did you do while you were logged into the Linux
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
Mm-hmm.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
OK?
21
22
23
24
25
F1mdulb6
Beeson - direct
Q.
the computer?
A.
Yes.
Q.
OK.
partition?
A.
I was.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
500.
1220
Exactly.
So were you able to make a complete copy of that Linux
13
(Pause)
14
15
A.
I do.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
our search.
19
Q.
20
data from the Linux half of the computer, the Linux half of the
21
laptop?
22
A.
Yes, I did.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes, I did.
25
Q.
And among the data on the hard drive, did you include the
F1mdulb6
1221
Beeson - direct
A.
Q.
Is it sda or sda4_crypt?
A.
Is that right?
Q.
A.
Sda4.
Q.
A.
Yes, we did.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
OK.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes, I do.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
A.
That is correct.
20
drive.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
A.
Thank you.
It's also a
F1mdulb6
1222
Beeson - direct
Exhibit 500.
Q.
in front of you?
A.
I see 502A.
Q.
OK.
So once you loaded all this data onto the hard drive,
what did you do with the hard drive?
10
A.
11
this hard drive was shipped to the FBI New York Field Office.
12
Q.
13
Office, did you hash the various files that you put onto the
14
drive?
15
A.
Yes, I did.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
And can you explain what it means to hash a file and why
21
that is done?
22
A.
23
of data.
24
25
changed.
Before you sent the hard drive to the New York Field
Sure.
It's a
F1mdulb6
OK.
Beeson - direct
1223
Q.
it?
A.
Q.
Yes.
A.
tell the application to read this file in, and the application
will take all the data, the data stream in that file, and will
10
Q.
11
A.
It is.
12
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
anywhere?
21
A.
I did.
22
Q.
23
And if you have one file that is just a tiny bit different
It is substantially different.
So the hash values that you calculated, did you record them
24
25
I do.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mdulb6
1224
Beeson - direct
Q.
What is it?
A.
that has the hash value and file name of every file that we
5
6
MR. TURNER:
evidence.
MR. DRATEL:
THE COURT:
10
No objection.
MR. TURNER:
Received.
11
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes.
14
15
Q.
There we go.
16
17
A.
18
There we go.
19
Q.
20
sorry, is it 205A?
21
Yes.
(Pause)
22
A.
23
Q.
It's 205A.
24
MR. TURNER:
25
THE WITNESS:
F1mdulb6
1
2
Beeson - direct
MR. TURNER:
Q.
502.
1225
A.
I do, sir.
Q.
OK.
A.
I did.
Q.
What is it?
A.
10
hard drives.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
It does.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
21
22
Yes.
23
24
25
that it again checked and the fingerprint was the same in both
F1mdulb6
1226
Beeson - direct
instances.
Q.
A.
during access.
Q.
laptop?
So they can also hash this data and make sure that the data
Did you take any pictures while you were working on the
10
A.
I did.
11
Q.
12
13
(Pause)
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
copies.
19
20
encountered it.
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb7
1227
Beeson - direct
BY MR. TURNER:
Q.
A.
My FBI-issued camera.
Q.
And does the exhibit reflect the time that the camera shots
were taken?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
11
12
Q.
Okay.
13
14
MR. TURNER:
15
MR. DRATEL:
No objection.
16
THE COURT:
17
Received.
18
Q.
Please.
19
A.
20
Q.
And 501B?
21
A.
22
Q.
501C?
23
A.
24
Q.
And 501D?
25
A.
F1mgulb7
1228
Beeson - direct
Q.
A.
the system and the user in this system show up here in these
terminal windows.
Frosty.
10
Q.
Sure.
Can
11
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
They could.
16
Q.
17
A.
Absolutely.
18
Q.
19
was?
20
A.
21
Q.
22
computer, right?
23
A.
That's correct.
24
Q.
25
A.
F1mgulb7
Beeson - direct
MR. TURNER:
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
1229
No further questions.
Mr. Dratel.
Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DRATEL:
Q.
laptop?
A.
Q.
And the ones that you put in evidence were not the only
10
photographs, correct?
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
13
A.
Thank you.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
took.
17
18
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
21
Q.
Yeah.
22
A.
That's correct.
23
Q.
24
capture what was on the laptop, the use of the tar command,
25
correct, T-A-R?
I may have.
I'll go --
F1mgulb7
Beeson - cross
A.
That's right.
Q.
right?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
1230
10
11
A.
12
Q.
And but by doing this, you change all the access times for
13
all those files that you're tar'ing to the time when you tar,
14
right?
15
A.
16
Q.
Isn't that what happened here, that the access times were
17
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
right?
22
A.
23
Q.
But if the access files are changed, then they only reflect
24
the time that you tar'ed it, right, and not the access files
25
F1mgulb7
1231
Beeson - cross
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
14
the computer?
15
A.
16
Q.
Now, while you were running the tar command on the Frosty
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Yes.
20
A.
I may have.
21
Q.
Do you recall?
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
Just
F1mgulb7
1232
Beeson - cross
second paragraph.
A.
folder"?
Q.
Yes.
A.
I'm ready.
Q.
A.
Yes, it does.
10
Q.
Yes.
11
12
A.
13
Q.
Okay.
Sure.
14
I just want to
I have
Thank you.
And the error message was "File changed as we read it
15
16
A.
That's correct.
17
Q.
18
properly copied all of the files -- whether the tar process had
19
been completed at the point that you got that error message,
20
correct?
21
A.
That's correct.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Right?
F1mgulb7
Beeson - cross
1233
A.
Yes.
Q.
changing files, right, but while it's on, files can be changing
A.
happening constantly.
Q.
That's correct.
Right.
10
message, correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
know even today what the precise reason for that error message
14
was?
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
software, right?
19
A.
I did not.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
It is.
25
Q.
All right.
F1mgulb7
Beeson - cross
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
1234
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
I'm answering.
21
Q.
At 7:42.
22
A.
One moment.
23
sir.
24
Q.
25
Sure.
Yes.
Okay.
F1mgulb7
Beeson - cross
1235
A.
take that data stream as I read it and pipe it into MD5 sum
same time.
Q.
Right.
A.
It did.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
That's correct.
13
THE COURT:
14
15
MR. DRATEL:
16
Honor.
17
18
THE COURT:
5:00.
19
MR. DRATEL:
Okay.
Thank you.
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
Q.
Well, you knew that the DD file that you created was not a
25
F1mgulb7
Beeson - cross
1236
A.
was made.
Q.
later?
A.
into the keyboard, parts of the file system would change again.
Q.
And you didn't generate the MD5 Hash until a couple days
10
A.
That's correct.
11
Q.
And that was when you had started the random access memory
12
13
A.
That's correct.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
I am.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
F1mgulb7
1
Judge.
THE COURT:
MR. DRATEL:
1237
Beeson - cross
left.
THE COURT:
want you to make sure that if you run into any media or news
articles about this case, that you avert your eyes and that you
I also
10
11
12
13
14
(Jury excused)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
F1mgulb7
1238
Beeson - cross
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
Mr. Turner, I know your witness has been hung over the
Thank you.
weekend, but it's important that people not feel too rushed if
MR. TURNER:
THE COURT:
We try.
So we gave it a go and it will be what it
10
11
morning.
12
13
14
MR. TURNER:
15
THE COURT:
16
17
18
No.
So who is going to be the next witness
19
THE COURT:
20
MR. TURNER:
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. TURNER:
23
24
25
F1mgulb7
1239
Beeson - cross
minutes or so of testimony.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. TURNER:
be able to explain.
10
11
THE COURT:
Sometimes
12
13
14
MR. TURNER:
15
THE COURT:
If
Of course.
In terms of any other additions, I assume
16
you'll confer with Mr. Dratel first to see whether or not there
17
18
19
that.
20
MR. TURNER:
21
THE COURT:
22
already?
23
MR. TURNER:
24
THE COURT:
25
F1mgulb7
1240
Beeson - cross
and adjust whatever times now that you see how things are going
projections are.
8
9
MR. TURNER:
the weekend.
10
THE COURT:
Terrific.
11
12
13
14
Monday.
15
16
17
18
MR. TURNER:
Honor.
19
THE COURT:
20
to what we had talked about that first day that you know of
21
now?
22
23
will have some timing issues at some point, which I'll try to
24
25
I'm
F1mgulb7
1
1241
Beeson - cross
MR. DRATEL:
that context.
to.
10
11
in that regard.
THE COURT:
12
13
14
15
I'll start asking you, Mr. Dratel, for a better estimate and
16
whether or not you for sure know one way or the other whether
17
18
final decision, of course, until the moment you call him, but
19
20
MR. DRATEL:
Sure.
21
that obviously I've just learned about the new witnesses, but I
22
23
call anymore.
24
MR. TURNER:
25
MR. DRATEL:
Okay.
F1mgulb7
1
2
THE COURT:
list.
1242
Beeson - cross
Let me see.
All right.
6
7
MR. TURNER:
THE COURT:
10
MR. TURNER:
11
THE COURT:
Yes.
Do you think it's taken care of?
Yes.
I didn't know if there were two
12
13
going to be separate, one for the AA, one for the other pieces.
14
15
MR. TURNER:
16
THE COURT:
17
open.
18
tomorrow.
19
20
21
22
9:00.
23
24
25
F1mgulb7
1243
Beeson - cross
as opposed to sort of, you know, 'I don't really like the way
this is.'
Exhibit 226.
MR. TURNER:
10
THE COURT:
11
Fine.
12
13
MR. TURNER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. DRATEL:
16
THE COURT:
17
with us and I'll receive over the weekend from the government,
18
19
talk.
20
21
22
Thanks.
We're adjourned.
23
24
25
* * *
All rise.
1244
INDEX OF EXAMINATION
Examination of:
Page
THOMAS KIERNAN
GREGORY FINE
. . . . . . . . . . . . .1057
. . . . . . . . . . . .1108
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
. . . . . . . . . . . . .1162
. . . . . . . . . . . . .1229
GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No.
Received
19
502A
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1039
20
502
21
205A
22
297
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1043
23
298
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1049
24
1000
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1122
25
1001
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1124
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1040
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1042
1245
1005
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1128
1006
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1129
1008
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1134
1002
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1136
1003
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1147
1004
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1160
500A
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1224
501A-501D
9
10
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1227
DEFENDANT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No.
Received
11
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1068
12
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1081
13
R-57
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1187
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300