SUPERMAN ALL STARS

Three years, 12 issues, Eisners and countless accolades later, All Star Superman is finally finished.
The out-of-continuity look at Superman’s struggle with his inevitable death was widely embraced by
fans and pros as one of the best stories to feature the Man of Steel, and was a showcase for the talents
of the creative team of Grant Morrison, Frank Quitely and Jamie Grant.

Now, Newsarama is proud to present an exclusive look back with Morrison at the series that took
Superman to, pun intended, new heights. We had a lot of questions about the series...and Morrison
delivered with an in-depth look into the themes, characters and ideas throughout the 12 issues. In fact,
there was so much that we’re running this as an unprecedented 10-part series over the next two weeks
– sort of an unofficial All Star Superman companion. It’s everything about All Star Superman you
ever wanted to know, but were afraid to ask.

And of course there’s plenty of SPOILERS, so back away if you haven’t read the entire series.

In Part One: How the series came to be. Find out the other superstar artist who almost penciled the
series, the influences that combined to forge All Star, and who Morrison really thinks is cooler,
Superman or Batman.

Newsarama: Grant, tell us a little about the origin of the project.

Grant Morrison: Some of it has its roots in the DC One Million project from 1999. So much so, that
some readers have come to consider this a prequel to DC One Million, which is fine if it shifts a few
more copies! I’ve tried to give my own DC books an overarching continuity intended to make them all
read as a more coherent body of work when I’m done.

Luthor’s “enlightenment” – when he peaks on super–senses and sees the world as it appears through
Superman’s eyes – was an element I’d included in the Superman Now pitch I prepared along with
Mark Millar, Tom Peyer and Mark Waid back in 1999. There were one or two of ideas of mine that I
wanted to preserve from Superman Now and Luthor’s heart–stopping moment of understanding was a
favorite part of the original ending for that story, so I decided to use it again here.

My specific take on Superman’s physicality was inspired by the “shamanic” meeting my JLA editor
Dan Raspler and I had in the wee hours of the morning outside the San Diego comic book convention
in whenever it was, ‘98 or ‘99.

I’ve told this story in more detail elsewhere but basically, we were trying to figure out how to “reboot”
Superman without splitting up his marriage to Lois, which seemed like a cop–out. It was the beginning
of the conversations which ultimately led to Superman Now, with Dan and I restlessly pacing around
trying to figure out a new way into the character of Superman and coming up short...

Until we looked up to see a guy dressed as Superman crossing the train tracks. Not just any skinny
convention guy in an ill–fitting suit, this guy actually looked like Superman. It was too good a moment
to let pass, so I ran over to him, told him what we’d been trying to do and asked if he wouldn’t mind
indulging us by answering some questions about Superman, which he did...in the persona and voice of
Superman!

We talked for an hour and a half and he walked off into the night with his friend (no, it wasn’t Jimmy
Olsen, sadly). I sat up the rest of the night, scribbling page after page of Superman notes as the sun
came up over the naval yards.

My entire approach to Superman had come from the way that guy had been sitting; so easy, so
confident, as if, invulnerable to all physical harm, he could relax completely and be spontaneous and
warm. That pose, sitting hunched on the bollard, with one knee up, the cape just hanging there, talking
to us seemed to me to be the opposite of the clenched, muscle-bound look the character sometimes
sports and that was the key to Superman for me.
I met the same Superman a couple of times afterwards but he wasn’t Superman, just a nice guy dressed
as Superman, whose name I didn’t save but who has entered into my own personal mythology (a
picture has from that time has survived showing me and Mark Waid posing alongside this guy and a
couple of young readers dressed as Superboy and Supergirl – it’s in the “Gallery” section at my website
for anybody who can be bothered looking. This is the guy who lit the fuse that led to All Star
Superman).

After the 1999 pitch was rejected, I didn’t expect to be doing any further work on Superman but
sometime in 2002, while I was going into my last year on New X–Men, Dan DiDio called and asked if
I wanted to come back to DC to work on a Superman book with Jim Lee.

Jim was flexing his artistic muscles again to great effect, and he wanted to do 12 issues on Superman to
complement the work he was doing with Jeph Loeb on “Batman: Hush.” At the time, I wasn’t able to
make my own commitments dovetail with Jim’s availability, but by then I’d become obsessed with the
idea of doing a big Superman story and I’d already started working out the details.

Jim, of course, went on to do his 12 Superman issues as “For Tomorrow” with Brian Azzarello, so I
found myself looking for an artist for what was rapidly turning into my own Man of Steel magnum
opus, and I already knew the book had to be drawn by my friend and collaborator, Frank Quitely.

We were already talking about We3 and Superman seemed like a good meaty project to get our teeth
into when that was done. I completely scaled up my expectations of what might be possible once Frank
was on board and decided to make this thing as ambitious as possible.

Usually, I prefer to write poppy, throwaway “live performance” type superhero books, but this time, I
felt compelled to make something for the ages – a big definitive statement about superheroes and life
and all that, not only drawn by my favorite artist but starring the first and greatest superhero of them
all.

The fact that it could be a non–continuity recreation made the idea even more attractive and more
achievable. I also felt ready for it, in a way I don’t think I would have been in 1999; I finally felt
“grown–up” enough to do Superman justice.

I plotted the whole story in 2002 and drew tiny colored sketches for all 12 covers. The entire book was
very tightly constructed before we started – except that I’d left the ending open for the inevitable better
and more focused ideas I knew would arise as the project grew into its own shape...and I left an empty
space for issue 10. That one was intended from the start to be the single issue of the 12–issue run that
would condense and amplify the themes of all the others. #10 was set aside to be the one–off story that
would sum up anything anyone needed to know about Superman in 22 pages.

Not quite as concise an origin as Superman’s, but that’s how we got started.

NRAMA: When you were devising the series, what challenges did you have in building up this version
of the Superman universe?

GM: I couldn’t say there were any particular challenges. It was fun. Nobody was telling me what I
could or couldn’t do with the characters. I didn’t have to worry about upsetting continuity or annoying
people who care about stuff like that.

I don’t have a lot of old comics, so my knowledge of Superman was based on memory, some tattered
“70s books from the remains of my teenage collection, a bunch of DC “Best Of...” reprint editions and
two brilliant little handbooks – “Superman in Action Comics” Volumes 1 and 2 – which reprint every
single Action Comics cover from 1938 to 1988.

I read various accounts of Superman’s creation and development as a brand. I read every Superman
story and watched every Superman movie I could lay my hands on, from the Golden Age to the present
day. From the Socialist scrapper Superman of the Depression years, through the Super–Cop of the 40s,
the mythic Hyper–Dad of the 50s and 60s, the questioning, liberal Superman of the early 70s, the bland
“superhero” of the late 70s, the confident yuppie of the 80s, the over–compensating Chippendale
Superman of the 90s etc. I read takes on Superman by Mark Waid, Mark Millar, Geoff Johns, Denny
O’Neil, Jeph Loeb, Alan Moore, Paul Dini and Alex Ross, Joe Casey, Steve Seagle, Garth Ennis, Jim
Steranko and many others.

I looked at the Fleischer cartoons, the Chris Reeve movies and the animated series, and read Alvin
Schwartz’s (he wrote the first ever Bizarro story among many others) fascinating book – “An Unlikely
Prophet” – where he talks about his notion of Superman as a tulpa, (a Tibetan word for a living thought
form which has an independent existence beyond its creator) and claims he actually met the Man of
Steel in the back of a taxi.

I immersed myself in Superman and I tried to find in all of these very diverse approaches the essential
“Superman–ness” that powered the engine. I then extracted, purified and refined that essence and
drained it into All Star’s tank, recreating characters as my own dream versions, without the baggage of
strict continuity.

In the end, I saw Superman not as a superhero or even a science fiction character, but as a story of
Everyman. We’re all Superman in our own adventures. We have our own Fortresses of Solitude we
retreat to, with our own special collections of valued stuff, our own super–pets, our own “Bottle Cities”
that we feel guilty for neglecting. We have our own peers and rivals and bizarre emotional or moral
tangles to deal with.

I felt I’d really grasped the concept when I saw him as Everyman, or rather as the dreamself of
Everyman. That “S” is the radiant emblem of divinity we reveal when we rip off our stuffy shirts, our
social masks, our neuroses, our constructed selves, and become who we truly are.

Batman is obviously much cooler, but that’s because he’s a very energetic and adolescent fantasy
character: a handsome billionaire playboy in black leather with a butler at this beck and call, better cars
and gadgetry than James Bond, a horde of fetish femme fatales baying around his heels and no boss.
That guy’s Superman day and night.

Superman grew up baling hay on a farm. He goes to work, for a boss, in an office. He pines after a
hard–working gal. Only when he tears off his shirt does that heroic, ideal inner self come to life. That’s
actually a much more adult fantasy than the one Batman’s peddling but it also makes Superman a little
harder to sell. He’s much more of a working class superhero, which is why we ended the whole book
with the image of a laboring Superman.

He’s Everyman operating on a sci–fi Paul Bunyan scale. His worries and emotional problems are the
same as ours... except that when he falls out with his girlfriend, the world trembles.

Newsarama: Grant, what are some of your favorite moments from the 12 issues?

Grant Morrison: The first shot of Superman flying over the sun. The Cosmic Anvil. Samson and
Atlas. The kiss on the moon. The first three pages of the Olsen story which, I think, add up to the best
character intro I’ve ever written.

Everything Lex Luthor says in issue #5. Everything Clark does. The whole says/does Luthor/Superman
dynamic as played out through Frank Quitely’s absolute mastery and understanding of how space,
movement and expression combine to tell a story.

Superboy and his dog on the moon – that perfect teenage moment of infinite possibility, introspection
and hope for the future. He’s every young man on the verge of adulthood, Krypto is every dog with his
boy (it seemed a shame to us that Krypto’s most memorable moment prior to this was his death scene
in “Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow.” Quitely’s scampering, leaping, eager and alive
little creature is how I’d prefer to imagine Krypto the Superdog and conjures finer and more subtle
emotions).

Bizarro–Home, with all of Earth’s continental and ocean shapes but reversed. The page with the first
appearance of Zibarro that Frank has designed so the eye is pulled down in a swirling motion into the
drain at the heart of the image, to make us feel that we’re being flushed in a cloacal spiral down into a
nihilistic, existential sink. Frank gave me that page as a gift, and it became weirdly emblematic of a
strange, dark time in both our lives.

The story with Bar–El and Lilo has a genuine chill off ammonia and antiseptic off it, which makes it
my least favorite issue of the series, although I know a lot of people who love it. It’s about dying
relatives, obligations, the overlit overheated corridors between terminal wards, the thin metallic odors
of chemicals, bad food and fear. Preparation for the Phantom Zone.

Superman hugging the poor, hopeless girl on the roof and telling us all we’re stronger than we think we
are.

Joe Shuster drawing us all into the story forever and never–ending.

Nasthalthia Luthor. Frank and Jamie’s final tour of the Fortress, referencing every previous issue on the
way, in two pages.

All of issue #10 (there’s a single typo in there where the time on the last page was screwed up – but
when we fix that detail for the trade I’ll be able to regard this as the most perfectly composed superhero
story I’ve ever written).

I don’t think I’ve ever had a smoother, more seamless collaborative process.

NRAMA: The story is very complete unto itself, but are there any new or classic characters you’d like
to explore further? If so, which ones and why?

GM: I’d happily write more Atlas and Samson. I really like Krull, the Dino–Czar’s wayward son, and
his Stalinist underground empire of “Subterranosauri.” I could write a Superman Squad comic forever.
I’d love to write the “Son of Superman” sequel about Lois and Clark’s super test tube baby.

But...I think All Star is already complete, without sequels. You read that last issue and it works
because you know you’re never going to see All Star Superman again. You’ll be able to pick up
Superman books, but they won’t be about this guy and they won’t feel the same. He really is going
away. Our Superman is actually “dying” in that sense, and that adds the whole series a deeper
poignancy.

NRAMA: Aside from the Bizarro League, you never really introduce other DC superheroes into the
story. Why did you make this choice?

GM: I wanted the story to be about the mythic Superman at the end of his time. It’s clear from the
references that he has or more likely has had a few super–powered allies, but that they’re no longer
around or relevant any more.

For the context of this story I wanted the super–friends to be peripheral, like they were in the old
comics. The Flash? Green Lantern? They represent Superman’s “old army buddies,” or your dad’s
school friends. Guys you’ve sort of heard of, who used to be more important in the old man’s life than
they are now.

NRAMA: Some readers were confused as to how the “Twelve Labors” broke down, though others
have pointed out that Superman’s actions are more reflective of the Stations of the Cross (I note there’s
a “Station Café” in the background of issue #12). Could you break down the Twelve Labors, or, if the
cross theory is true, how the storyline reflects the Stations?

GM: The 12 Labors of Superman were never intended as an isomorphic mapping onto the 12 Labors of
Hercules, or for that matter, the specific Stations of the Cross, of which there are 14, I believe. I didn’t
even want to do one Labor per issue, so it deliberately breaks down quite erratically through the series
for reasons I’ll go into (later).

Yes, there are correspondences, but that’s mostly because we tried to create for our Superman the
contemporary “superhero” version of an archetypal solar hero journey, which naturally echoes
numerous myths, legends and religious parables.

At the same time, we didn’t want to do an update or a direct copy of any myth you’d seen before, so it
won’t work if you try to find one specific mythological or religious “plan” to hang the series on; James
Joyce’s honorable and heroic refutation of the rule aside, there’s nothing more dead and dull than an
attempt to retell the Odyssey or the Norse sagas scene by scene, but in a modern and/or superhero
setting.

For future historians and mythologizers, however, the 12 Labors of Superman may be enumerated as
follows:

1. Superman saves the first manned mission to the sun.

And one final feat, which typically no–one really notices, is that Lex Luthor delivers his own version of
the unified field haiku – explaining the underlying principles of the universe in fourteen syllables –
which the P.R.O.J.E.C.T. G–Type philosopher from issue 4 had dedicated his entire life to composing!

You may notice also that the Labors take place over a year – with the solar hero’s descent into the
darkness and cold of the Underverse occurring at midwinter/Christmas time (that’s also the only point
in the story where we ever see Metropolis at night).

It can also be seen as the sun’s journey over the course of a day – we open in blazing sunshine but
halfway through the book, at the end of issue #5, in fact, the solar hero dips below the horizon and
begins the night–journey through the hours of darkness and death, before his triumphant resurrection at
dawn. That’s why issue 5 ends with the boat to the Underworld and 6 begins with the moon. Clark
Kent is crossing the threshold into the subconscious world of memory, shadows, death and deep
emotions.

Although they can often have bizarre resonances, specific elements, like the Station Café, are usually
put there by Frank Quitely, and are not necessarily secret Dan Brown–style keys to unlocking the
mysteries. I think there might be a Station Café opposite the studio where Frank Quitely works and the
“SAPIEN” sign on another storefront is a reference to Frank’s studio mate, Dave Sapien. At least he’s
not filling the background with dirty words like he used to, given any opportunity

NRAMA: For that matter, do the Twelve Labors matter at all? They seem so purposely ill–defined.
They seem more like misdirection or a MacGuffin than anything that needs to be clearly delineated.
GM: They matter, of course, but the 12 Labors idea is there to show that, as with all myth, the
systematic ordering of current events into stories, tales, or legends occurs after the fact.

I’m trying to suggest that only in the future will these particular 12 feats, out of all the others ever, be
mythologized as 12 Labors. I suppose I was trying to say something about how people impose meaning
upon events in retrospect, and that’s how myth is born. It’s hindsight that provides narrative, structure,
meaning and significance to the simple unfolding of events. It’s the backward glance that adds all the
capital letters to the list above.

Even Superman isn”t sure how many Labors he’s performed when we see him mulling it over in issue
10.
When you watched it happening, it seemed to be Superman just doing his thing. In the future it’s
become THE 12 LABORS OF SUPERMAN!

NRAMA: And on a completely ridiculous note: All–Star Superman is perhaps the most difficult–to–
abbreviate comic title since Preacher: Tall in the Saddle. Did you realize this going in?

GM: Going into what? Going into ASS itself? In the sense of how did I feel as I slowly entered ASS
for the first time?

It never crossed my mind...

Newsarama: I’d like to know a little more about Leo Quintum and his role in the story. He seems like
a bit of an outgrowth of the likes of Project Cadmus and Emil Hamilton, but in a more fantastical,
Willy Wonka sense.

Grant Morrison: Yeah, he was exactly as you say, my attempt to create an updated take on the
character of “Superman’s scientist friend” – in the vein of Emil Hamilton from the animated show and
the ‘90s stories. Science so often goes wrong in Superman stories, and I thought it was important to
show the potential for science to go right or to be elevated by contact with Superman’s shining positive
spirit.

I was thinking of Quintum as a kind of “Man Who Fell To Earth” character with a mysterious
unearthly background. For a while I toyed with the notion that he was some kind of avatar of Lightray
of the New Gods, but as All Star developed, that didn’t fit the tone, and he was allowed to simply be
himself.

Eventually it just came down to simplicity. Leo Quintum represents the “good” scientific spirit – the
rational, enlightened, progressive, utopian kind of scientist I figured Superman might inspire to
greatness. It was interesting to me how so many people expected Quintum to turn out bad at the end. It
shows how conditioned we are in our miserable, self–loathing, suspicious society to expect the worst of
everyone, rather than hope for the best. Or maybe it’s just what we expect from stories.

Having said that, there is indeed a necessary whiff of Lucifer about Quintum. His name, Leo Quintum,
conjures images of solar force, lions and lightbringers and he has elements of the classic Trickster
figure about him. He even refers to himself as “The Devil Himself” in issue #10.

What he’s doing at the end of the story should, for all its gee–whiz futurity, feel slightly ambiguous,
slightly fake, slightly “Hollywood.” Yes, he’s fulfilling Superman’s wishes by cloning an heir to
Superman and Lois and inaugurating a Superman dynasty that will last until the end of time – but he’s
also commodifying Superman, figuring out how it’s done, turning him into a brand, a franchise, a
bigger–and–better “revamp,” the ultimate coming attraction, fresher than fresh, newer than new but
familiar too. Quintum has figured out the “formula” for Superman and improved upon it.
And then you can go back to the start of All Star Superman issue #1 and read the “formula” for
yourself, condensed into eight words on the first page and then expanded upon throughout the story!
The solar journey is an endless circle naturally. A perfect puzzle that is its own solution.

In one way, Quintum could be seen to represent the creative team, simultaneously re–empowering a
pure myth with the honest fire of Art...while at the same time shooting a jolt of juice through a concept
that sells more “S” logo underpants and towels than it does comic books. All tastes catered!

I have to say that the Willy Wonka thing never crossed my mind until I saw people online make the
comparison, which seems quite obvious now. Quintum dresses how I would dress if I was the world’s
coolest super–scientist. What’s up with that?

NRAMA: Was Zibarro inspired by the Bizarro World story where the Bizarro–Neanderthal becomes
this unappreciated Casanova–type?

GM: Don’t know that one, but it sounds like a scenario I could definitely endorse!

Zibarro started out as a daft name sicked–up by my subconscious mind, which flowered within
moments into the must–write idea of an Imperfect Bizarro. What would an imperfect version of an
already imperfect being be like?

Zibarro.

NRAMA: I’d like to know more about Zibarro – what’s the significance of his chronicling Bizarro
World through poetry?

GM: It’s up to you. I see Zibarro partly as the sensitive teenager inside us all. He’s moody, horribly
self–aware and uncomfortable, yet filled with thoughts of omnipotence and agency. He’s the absolute
center of his tiny, disorganized universe. He’s playing the role of sensitive, empathic poet but at the
same time, he’s completely self–absorbed.

When he says to Superman “Can you even imagine what it’s like to be so different. So unique. So
unlike everyone else?” he doesn’t even wait for Superman’s reply. He doesn’t care about anyone’s
feelings but his own, ultimately.

NRAMA: The character is very close to Superman, so what does it say that a nonpowered version on a
savage world would focus his energy through that medium? Also, does Zibarro’s existence show how
Superman is able to elevate even the backwards Bizarros through his very nature?

GM: All of the above. And maybe he writes his totally subjective poetry as a reflection of Clark Kent’s
objective reporter role. The suppressed, lyrical, wounded side of Superman perhaps? The Super–
Morrissey? Bizarro With The Thorn In His Side?

But he’s also Bizarro–Home’s “mistake” (or so it seems to him, even though he’s as natural an
expression of the place as any of the other Bizarro creatures who grow like mould across the surface of
their living planet). He feels excluded, a despised outsider, and yet that position is what defines his
cherished self–image. He expresses himself through poetry because to him the regular Bizarro
language is barbaric, barely articulate and guttural. And they all think he’s talking crap anyway.

It seemed to make sense that an interesting opposite of Bizarro speech might be flowery “woe is me”
school Poetry Society odes to the sunset in a misunderstood heart. He’s still a Bizarro though, which
makes him ineffectual. His tragedy is that he knows he’s fated to be useless and pointless but craves so
much more.

NRAMA: Zibarro also represents a recurrent theme in the story, of Superman constantly facing
alternate versions of himself – Bar–El, Samson and Atlas, the Superman Squad, even Luthor by the
end. Notably, Hercules is absent, though Superman’s doing his Twelve Labors. With the mythological
adventurers in particular, was this designed to equate Superman with their legend, to show how his
character is greater than theirs, or both?

GM: In a way, I suppose. He did arm–wrestle them both, proving once and for all Superman’s stronger
than anybody! And remember, these characters, along with Hercules, used to appear regularly in
Superman books as his rivals. I thought they made better rivals than, say, Majestic or Ultraman because
people who don’t read comics have heard of Hercules, Samson and Atlas and understand what they
represent.

For that particular story, I wanted to see Superman doing tough guy shit again, like he did in the early
days and then again in the 70s, when he was written as a supremely cocky macho bastard for a while. I
thought a little bit of that would be an antidote to the slightly soppy, Super–Christ portrayal that was
starting to gain ground.

Hence Samson’s broken arm, twisted in two directions beyond all repair. And Atlas in the hospital.
And then Superman’s got his hot girlfriend dressed like a girl from Krypton and they’re making out on
the moon (the original panel description was of something more like the famous shot of Burt Lancaster
and Deborah Kerr kissing in the surf from “From Here To Eternity.” Frank’s final choice of
composition is much more classically pulp–romantic and iconic than my down and dirty rumble in the
moondirt would have been, I’m glad to say).

Newsarama: Tell us about some of the thinking behind the new antagonists you created for this series
(at least the ones you want to talk about...): First up: Krull and the Subterranosaurs...

Grant Morrison: We wanted to create some throwaway new characters which would be designed to
look as if they were convincing long–term elements of the Superman legend.

We were trying to create a few foes who had a classic feel and a solid backstory that could be explored
again or in depth. Even if we never went back to these characters, we wanted them to seem rich enough
to carry their own stories.

With Krull, we figured a superhuman character like Superman can always use a powerful “sub–human”
opponent: a beast, a monster, a savage with the power to destroy civilization. For years I’ve had the
idea that the familiar “gray aliens” might “actually” be evolved biped dinosaur descendants, the
offspring of smart–thinking lizards which made their way to the warm regions at the Earth’s core.

I imagined these brutes developing their own technology, their own civilization, and then finally
coming to the surface to declare bloody war on the mammalian usurpers! It seemed like we could
develop this idea into the Krull backstory and suggest a whole epic conflict in a few panels.

Dom Regan, the Glasgow artist and DC colorist, saw the original green skin Jamie Grant had done for
Krull, and suggested we make him red instead. Jamie reset his color filters and that was the moment
Krull suddenly looked like a real Superman foe.

The red skin marked him out as unique, different and dangerous, even among his own species. It had
echoes of Jack Kirby’s Devil Dinosaur that played right into the heart of the concept. A good design
became a great design and the whole story of who Krull was – his twisted relationship with his father
the Dino–Czar, his monstrous ambitions – came together in that first picture.

The society was fleshed out in the script even though we see only one panel of it – a gloomy, heavy,
“Soviet” underworld of walled iron cities, cold blood and deadly intrigue. War–Barges that could sail
on the oceans of heated steam at the center of the Earth. A Stalinist authoritarian lizard world where
missing person cases were being taken to work and die as slaves in hellish underworld conditions.

NRAMA: Mechano–Man?
GM: An attempt to pre–imagine a classic, archetypal Superman foe, which started with another simple
premise – how about a giant robot villain? But not just any giant robot – this is a rampaging machine
with a raging little man inside.

Giving him a bitter, angry, scrawny loser as a pilot turned Mechano–Man into a much more extreme
and pathological expression of the Man of Steel/Mild–Mannered Reporter dynamic, and added a few
interesting layers onto an 8–panel appearance.

NRAMA: The Chronovore – a very disturbing creation, that one.

GM: The Chronovore was mentioned in passing in DC 1,000,000 and would have been the monster in
my aborted Hypercrisis series idea. It took a long time to get the right design for the beast because it’s
meant to be a 5–D being that we only ever see in 4–D sections. It had to work as a convincing
representation of something much bigger that we’re seeing only where it interpenetrates our 4–D
space-time continuum.

Imagine you’re walking along with a song in your teenage heart, then suddenly the Chronovore
appears, takes bite out of your life, and you arrive at your girlfriend’s house aged 76, clutching a cell
phone and a wilted bouquet.

NRAMA: One more obscure run that I was happy to see referenced in this was the use of Nasty from
the old Mike Sekowsky Supergirl stories. What made you want to use this character?

GM: I remembered her from the old comics, and felt her fashion–y look could be updated very easily
into the kind of fetish club thing I’ve always been partial to.

She seemed a cool and sexy addition to the Luthor plot. The set–up, where Lex has a fairly normal
sister who hates how her wayward brother is such a bad influence on her brilliant daughter, is explosive
with character potential.

They need to bring Nasty back to mainstream continuity. Geoff! They all want it and you know you
never let them down!

NRAMA: Speaking of Mike Sekowsky, I’m curious about his influence on your work. I have an odd
fascination with all the ideas and stories he was tossing around in the late 1960s and early 1970s –
Jason’s Quest, Manhunter 2070, the I–Ching tales – and many of the characters he worked on, from the
B”Wana Beast to the Inferior Five to Yankee Doodle (in Doom Patrol), have shown up in your work.
The Bizarro Zoo in issue #10 is even slightly reminiscent of the Beast’s merged animals.

GM: Those were all comics that were around when I was a normal kid, prior to the obsessive collecting
fan phase of my isolated teenage years. They clearly inspired me in some way, as you say, but certainly
not consciously. I’d never have considered myself a particular fan of Mike Sekowsky’s work, but as
you say, I’ve incorporated a lot of his ideas into the DC Universe work I’ve done. Hmm. Interesting.

While I’m at it, I should also say something about Samson and Atlas, halfway between old characters
and new.

Samson, Atlas and Hercules were classical mainstays of old Superman covers, tangling with Superman
in all those Silver Age stories that happened before he learned from his friends at Marvel that it was
possible to fight other superheroes for fun and profit, so I decided to completely “re–vamp” the
characters in the manner of superhero franchises. Marvel has the definitive Hercules for me, so I left
him out of the mix and concentrated on Atlas and Samson.

Atlas was re–imagined as a mighty but restless and reckless young prince of the New Mythos – a
society of mega–beings playing out their archetypal dramas between New Elysium and Hadia, with
ordinary people caught in the middle – and Superman.
Essentially good–hearted, Atlas would have been the newbie in a “team” with Skyfather Xaoz!,
Heroina, Marzak and the others. He has a bullish, adolescent approach to life. He drinks and plunges
himself into ill–advised adventures to ease his naturally gloomy “weighed down by the world”
temperament.

You can see it all now. The backstory suggested an unseen, Empyrean New Gods–type series from a
parallel universe. What if, when Jack Kirby came to DC from Marvel in 1971, he’d followed up his
sci–fi Viking Gods saga at Marvel, with a dimension–spanning epic rooted in Greek mythology? New
Gods meets Eternals drawn by Curt Swan/Murphy Anderson? That was Atlas.

Samson, I decided would be a callback to the British newspaper strip “Garth.” Although you may
already be imagining a daily strip about the exploits of time–tossed The Boys writer, Garth Ennis, it
was actually about a blonde Adonis type who bounced around the ages having mildly horny, racy
adventures.

(Go look him up then return the wiser before reading on, so I don’t have to explain anymore about this
bastard – he’s often described as “the British Superman,” but oh...my arse! I hated meathead,
personality–singularity Garth...but we all grew up with his meandering, inexplicable yet incredibly–
drawn adventures and some of it was quite good when you were a little lad because he was always
shagging ON PANEL with the likes of a bare–breasted cave girl or gauze–draped Helen of Troy.

(Unlike Superman, you see, the top British strongman liked to get naked. Lots naked. Naked in every
time period he could get naked in, which was all of them thanks to the miracle of his bullshit powers.

(Imagine Doctor Who buff, dumb and naked all the time – Russell, I’ve had an idea!!!! – and that’s
Garth in a nutshell.

(Sorry, I know I’m going on and the average attention span of anyone reading stuff on the Internet
amounts to no more than a few paragraphs, but basically, Garth was always getting naked. In public, in
family newspapers. Bollock naked. Let’s face it, patriotic Americans, have you ever seen Superman’s
arse?

Newsarama Note: Well, there was Baby Kal-El in the 1978 film...

(Brits, hands up who still remember the man, and have you ever not seen Garth’s arse? Do you not, in
fact, have a very clear image of it in your head, as drawn by Martin Asbury perhaps? In mine, Garth’s
pulling aside a flimsy curtain to gaze at the pyramids with Cleopatra buck naked in foreground ogling
his rock hard glutes...).

Anyway, Samson, I decided, was the Hebrew version of Garth and he would have his own mad comic
that was like an American version of Garth. I saw the Bible hero plucked from the desert sands by
time–travelling buffoons in search of a savior. Introduced to all the worst aspects of future culture and,
using his stolen, erratic Chrono–Mobile, Samson became a time–(and space) travelling Soldier of
Fortune, writing wrongs, humping princesses, accumulating and losing treasure etc. Like a science
fiction Conan. Meets Garth.

Fortunately, you’ll never see any of these men ever again

Newsarama: How have your perceptions of Superman and his supporting characters evolved since the
Superman 2000 pitch you did with Mark Waid, Mark Millar and Tom Peyer? The Superman notions
seem almost identical, but Luthor is very different here than in that pitch, and so is Clark Kent. Did you
use some aspects of your original pitch, or have you just changed his mind on how to portray these
characters since?
Grant Morrison: A little of both. I wanted to approach All Star Superman as something new, but
there were a couple of specific aspects from the Superman 2000 pitch (as I mentioned earlier, it was
actually called Superman Now, at least in my notebooks, which is where the bulk of the material came
from) that I felt were definitely worth keeping and exploring.

I can’t remember much about Luthor from Superman Now, except for the ending. By the time I got to
All Star Superman, I’d developed a few new insights into Luthor’s character that seemed to flesh him
out more.
Luthor’s really human and charismatic and hateful all the same time. He’s the brilliant, deluded egotist
in all of us. The key for me was the idea that he draws his eyebrows on. The weird vanity of that told
me everything I needed to know about Luthor.

I thought the real key to him was the fact that, brilliant as he is, Luthor is nowhere near as brilliant as
he wants to be or thinks he is. For Luthor, no praise, no success, no achievement is ever enough,
because there’s a big hungry hole in soul. His need for acknowledgement and validation is superhuman
in scale. Superman needs no thanks, he does what he does because he’s made that way. Luthor
constantly rails against his own sense of failure and inadequacy...and Superman’s to blame, of course.

I’ve recently been re–thinking Luthor again for a different project, and there’s always a new aspect of
the character to unearth and develop.

NRAMA: This story makes Superman and Lois’ relationship seem much more romantic and epic than
usual, but this one also makes Superman more of the pursuer. Lois seems like more of an equal, but
also more wary of his affections, particularly in the black–and–white sequence in issue #2.

She becomes this great beacon of support for him over the course of the series, but there is a sense that
she’s a bit jaded from years of trickery and uncomfortable with letting him in now that he’s being
honest. How, overall, do you see the relationship between Superman and Lois?

GM: The black-and-white panels shows Lois paranoid and under the influence of an alien chemical,
but yes, she’s articulating many of her very real concerns in that scene.

I wanted her to finally respond to all those years of being tricked and duped and led to believe
Superman and Clark Kent were two different people. I wanted her to get her revenge by finally
refusing to accept the truth.

It also exposed that brilliant central paradox in the Superman/Lois relationship. The perfect man who
never tells a lie has to lie to the woman he loves to keep her safe. And he lives with that every day.
It’s that little human kink that really drives their relationship.

NRAMA: Jimmy Olsen is extremely cool in this series – it’s the old “Mr. Action” idea taken to a new
level. It’s often easy to write Jimmy as a victim or sycophant, but in this series, he comes off as
someone worthy of being “Superman’s Pal” – he implicitly trusts Superman, and will take any risk to
get his story. Do you see this version of Jimmy as sort of a natural evolution of the version often seen
in the comics?

GM: It was a total rethink based on the aspects of Olsen I liked, and playing down the whole wet–
behind–the–ears “cub reporter” thing. I borrowed a little from the “Mr Action” idea of a more
daredevil, pro–active Jimmy, added a little bit of Nathan Barley, some Abercrombie & Fitch style, a bit
of Tintin, and a cool Quitely haircut.

Jimmy was renowned for his “disguises” and bizarre transformations (my favorite is the transvestite
Olsen epic “Miss Jimmy Olsen” from Jimmy Olsen #95, which gets a nod on the first page of our
Jimmy story we did), so I wanted to take that aspect of his appeal and make it part of his job.

I don’t like victim Jimmy or dumb Jimmy, because those takes on the character don’t make any sense
in their context. It seemed more interesting see what a young man would be like who could
convincingly be Superman’s “pal.” Someone whose company a Superman might actually enjoy. That
meant making Jimmy a much bigger character: swaggering but disingenuous. Innocent yet worldly.
Enthusiastic but not stupid.

My favorite Jimmy moment is in issue #7 when he comes up with the way to defeat the Bizarro
invasion by using the seas of the Bizarro planet itself as giant mirrors to reflect toxic – to Bizarros –
sunlight onto the night side of the Earth. He knows Superman can actually take crazy lateral thinking
like this and put it into practice.

NRAMA: Perry White has a few small–but–key scenes, particularly his address to his staff in issue #1
and standing up to Luthor in issue #12. I’d like to hear more about your thoughts on this character.

GM: As with the others, my feelings are there on the page. Perry is Clark’s boss and need only be that
and not much more to play his role perfectly well within the stories. He’s a good reminder that
Superman has a job and a boss, unlike that good–for–nothing work-shy bastard Batman. Perry’s
another of the series’ older male role models of integrity and steadfastness, like Pa Kent.

NRAMA: There’s a sense in the Daily Planet scenes and with Lois’s spotlight issues that everyone
knows Clark is Superman, but they play along to humor him. The Clark disguise comes off as very
obvious in this story. Do you feel that the Planet staff knows the truth, or are just in a very deep case of
denial, like Lex?

GM: If I had to say for sure, I think Jimmy Olsen worked it out a long time ago, and simply presumes
that if Superman has a good reason for what he’s doing, that’s good enough for Jimmy.

Lois has guessed, but refuses to acknowledge it because it exposes her darkest flaw – she could never
love Clark Kent the way she loves Superman.

NRAMA: Also, the Planet staff seems awfully nonchalant at Luthor’s threats. Are they simply used to
being attacked by now?

GM: Yes. They’re a tough group. They also know that Superman makes a point of looking out for
them, so they naturally try to keep Luthor talking. They know he loves to talk about himself and about
Superman. In that scene, he’s almost forgotten he even has powers, he’s so busy arguing and making
points. He keeps doing ordinary things instead of extraordinary things.

NRAMA: The running gag of Clark subtly using his powers to protect unknowing people is well done,
but I have to admit I was confused by the sequence near the end of issue #1. Was that an el–train, and if
so, why was it so close to the ground?

GM: It’s a MagLev hover–train. Look again, and you’ll see it’s not supported by anything. Hover–
trains help ease congestion in busy city streets! Metropolis is the City of Tomorrow, after all.

NRAMA: And there’s the death of Pa Kent. Why do you feel it’s particularly important to have Pa and
not both of the Kents pass away?

GM: I imagined they had both passed away fairly early in Superman’s career, but Ma went a few years
after Pa. Also, because the book was about men or man, it seemed important to stress the father/son
relationships. That circle of life, the king is dead, long live the king thing that Superman is ultimately
too big and too timeless to succumb to.

NRAMA: There is a real touch of Elliott S! Maggin’s novels in your depiction of Luthor – someone
who is just so obsessive–compulsive about showing up Superman that he accomplishes nothing in his
own life. He comes across as a showman, from his rehearsed speech in issue #1 to his garish costume
in the last two issues, and it becomes painfully apparent that he wants to ursurp Superman because he
just can”t be happy with himself. What defeats him is actually a beautiful gift, getting to see the world
as Superman does, and finally understanding his enemy.
That’s all a lead–in to: What previous stories that defined Luthor for you, and how did you define his
character? What appeals to you about writing him?

GM: The Marks Waid and Millar were big fans of the Maggin books, and may have persuaded me to
read at least the first one but I’m ashamed to say can’t remember anything about it, other than the
vague recollection of a very humane, humanist take on Superman that seemed in general accord with
the pacifist, hedonistic, between–the–wars spirit of the ‘90s when I read it. It was the ‘90s; I had other
things on my mind and in my mind.

I like Maggin’s “Must There Be A Superman?” from Superman #247, which ultimately poses
questions traditional superhero comic books are not equipped to answer and is one of the first paving
stones in the Yellow Brick Road that leads to Watchmen and beyond, to The Authority, The
Ultimates etc. Everyone still awake, still reading this, should make themselves familiar with “Must
There Be A Superman?” – it’s a milestone in the development of the superhero concept.

However, the story that most defines Luthor for me turns out to be, as usual, a Len Wein piece with
Curt Swan/Murphy Anderson– Superman #248. This blew me away when I was a kid. Lex Luthor
cares about humanity? He’s sorry we all got blown up? The villain loves us too? It’s only Superman he
really hates? Genius. Big, cool adult stuff.

The divine Len makes Lex almost too human, but it was amazing to see this kind of depth in a
character I’d taken for granted as a music hall villain.

I also love the brutish Satanic, Crowley–esque, Golden Age Luthor in the brilliant “Powerstone”
Action Comics #47 (the opening of All Star #11 is a shameless lift from “Powerstone”, as I soon
realised when I went back to look. Blame my...er....photographic memory....cough).

And I like the Silver Age Luthor who only hates Superman because he thinks it’s Superboy’s fault he
went bald. That was the most genuinely human motivation for Luthor’s career of villainy of all; it was
Superman’s fault he went bald! I can get behind that.

In the Silver Age, baldness, like obesity, old age and poverty, was seen quite rightly as a crippling
disease and a challenge which Superman and his supporting cast would be compelled to overcome at
every opportunity! Suburban “50s America versus Communist degeneracy? You tell me.

I like elements of the Marv Wolfman/John Byrne ultra–cruel and rapacious businessman, although he
somewhat lacks the human dimension (ultimately there’s something brilliant about Luthor being a
failed inventor, a product of Smallville/Dullsville – the genius who went unnoticed in his lifetime, and
resorted to death robots in chilly basements and cellars. Luthor as geek versus world). I thought Alan
Moore’s ruthlessly self–assured “consultant” Luthor in Swamp Thing was an inspired take on the
character as was Mark Waid’s rage–driven prodigy from Birthright.

I tried to fold them all into one portrayal. I see him as a very human character – Superman is us at our
best, Luthor is us when we’re being mean, vindictive, petty, deluded and angry. Among other things.
It’s like a bipolar manic/depressive personality – with optimistic, loving Superman smiling at one end
of the scale and paranoid, petty Luthor cringing on the other.

I think any writer of Superman has to love these two enemies equally. We have to recognize them both
as potentials within ourselves. I think it’s important to find yourself agreeing with Luthor a bit about
Superman’s “smug superiority” – we all of us, except for Superman, know what it’s like to have mean–
spirited thoughts like that about someone else’s happiness. It’s essential to find yourself rooting for
Lex, at least a little bit, when he goes up against a man–god armed only with his bloody–minded
arrogance and cleverness.

Even if you just wish you could just give him a hug and help him channel his energies in the right
direction, Luthor speaks for something in all of us, I like to think.
However, he’s played, Luthor is the male power fantasy gone wrong and turned sour. You’ve got
everything you want but it’s not enough because someone has more, someone is better, someone is
cleverer or more handsome.

Newsarama: Grant, a recurring theme throughout the book is the effect of small kindness – how even
the likes of Steve Lombard are capable of decency. And Superman gets the key to saving himself by
doing something that any human being could do, offering sympathy to a person about to end it all.

Grant Morrison: Completely...the person you help today could be the person who saves your life
tomorrow.

NRAMA: The character actions that make the biggest difference, from Zibarro’s sacrifice to Pa’s
influence on Superman, are really things that any normal, non-powered person could do if they
embrace the best part of their humanity. The last page of issue #12 teases the idea that Superman’s
powers could be given to all mankind, but it seems as though the greatest gift he has given them is his
humanity. How do you view Superman’s fate in the context of where humanity could go as a species?

GM: I see Superman in this series as an Enlightenment figure, a Renaissance idea of the ideal man,
perfect in mind, body and intention.

A key text in all of this is Pico’s ‘Oration On The Dignity of Man’ (15c), generally regarded as the
‘manifesto’ of Renaissance thought, in which Giovanni Pico Della Mirandola laid out the fundamentals
of what we tend to refer to as ’Humanist’ thinking.

(The ‘Oratorio’ also turns up in my British superhero series Zenith from 1987, which may indicate
how long I’ve been working towards a Pico/Superman team-up!)

At its most basic, the ‘Oratorio’ is telling us that human beings have the unique ability, even the
responsibility, to live up to their ‘ideals’. It would be unusual for a dog to aspire to be a horse, a bird to
bark like a dog, or a horse to want to wear a diving suit and explore the Barrier Reef, but people have a
particular gift for and inclination towards imitation, mimicry and self-transformation. We fly by
watching birds and then making metal carriers that can outdo birds, we travel underwater by imitating
fish, we constantly look to role models and behavioral templates for guidance, even when those role
models are fictional TV or, comic, novel or movie heroes, just like the soft, quick, shapeshifty little
things we are. We can alter the clothes we wear, the temperature around us, and change even our own
bodies, in order to colonize or occupy previously hostile environments. We are, in short, a distinctively
malleable and adaptable bunch.

So, Pico is saying, if we live by imitation, does it not make sense that we might choose to imitate the
angels, the gods, the very highest form of being that we can imagine ? Instead of indulging the most
brutish, vicious, greedy and ignorant aspects of the human experience, we can, with a little applied
effort, elevate the better part of our natures and work to express those elements through our behavior.
To do so would probably make us all feel a whole lot better too. Doing good deeds and making other
people happy makes you feel totally brilliant, let’s face it.

So we can choose to the astronaut or the gangster. The superhero or the super villain. The angel or the
devil. It’s entirely up to us, particularly in the privileged West, how we choose to imagine ourselves
and conduct our lives.

We live in the stories we tell ourselves. It’s really simple. We can continue to tell ourselves and our
children that the species we belong to is a crawling, diseased, viral cancer smear, only fit for extinction,
and let’s see where that leads us.
We can continue to project our self-loathing and narcissistic terror of personal mortality onto our
culture, our civilization, our planet, until we wreck the promise of the world for future generations in a
fit of sheer self-induced panic...

...or we can own up to the scientific fact that we are all physically connected as parts of a single giant
organism, imagine better ways to live and grow...and then put them into practice. We can stop pissing
about, start building starships, and get on with the business of being adults.

The ’Oratorio’ is nothing less than the Shazam!, the Kimota! for Western Culture and we would do
well to remember it in our currently trying times.

The key theme of the ‘Dark Age’ of comics was loss and recovery of wonder - McGregor’s Killraven
trawling through the apocalyptic wreckage of culture in his search for poetry, meaning and fellowship,
Captain Mantra, amnesiac in Robert Mayer’s Superfolks, Alan Moore’s Mike Maxwell trudging
through the black and white streets of Thatcher’s Britain, with the magic word of transformation
burning on the tip of his tongue.

My own work has been an ongoing attempt to repeat the magic word over and over until we all become
the kind of superheroes we’d all like to be. Ha hah ha.

Newsarama: The structure of the 12 issues involves both Superman’s 12 labors and his impending
death. Do you feel the threat of his demise brings out the best in Superman’s already–high character, or
did you intend it more as a window for the audience to understand how he sees the world?

Grant Morrison: In trying to do the “big,” ultimate Superman story, we wanted to hit on all the major
beats that define the character – the “death of Superman” story has been told again and again and had
to be incorporated into any definitive take. Superman’s death and rebirth fit the sun god myth we were
establishing, and, as you say, it added a very terminal ticking clock to the story.

NRAMA: When we talked earlier this year, we discussed the neurotic quality of the Silver Age stories.
Looking at the series as a whole, you consistently invert this formula. Superman is faced with all these
crises that could be seen as personifying his neuroses, but for the most part he handles them with a
level head and comes across as being very at peace with himself. You talked about your discussion
with an in–character Superman fan at a convention years ago, but I am curious as to how you
determined Superman’s mindset.

GM: I felt we had to live up to the big ideas behind Superman. I don’t take my daft job lightly. It’s all
I’ve got.

As the project got going, I wasn’t thinking about Silver Ages or Dark Ages or anything about the
comics I’d read, so much as the big shared idea of “Superman” and that “S” logo I see on T–shirts
everywhere I go, on girls and boys. That communal Superman. I wanted us to get the precise energy of
Platonic Superman down on the page.

The “S” hieroglyph, the super–sigil, stands for the very best kind of man we can imagine, so the subject
dictated the methodical, perfectionist approach. As I’ve mentioned before, I keep this aspect of my job
fresh for myself by changing my writing style to suit the project, the character or the artist.

With something like Batman R.I.P., I’m aiming for a frenzied Goth Pulp-Noir; punk-psych,
expressionist shadows and jagged nightmare scene shifts, inspired by Batman’s roots and by the
snapping, fluttering of his uncanny cape. Final Crisis was written, with the Norse Ragnarok and
Biblical Revelations in mind, as a story about events more than characters. A doom-laden, Death Metal
myth for the wonderful world of Fina(ncia)l Crisis/Eco-breakdown/Terror Trauma we all have to live
in.

The subject matter drives the execution. And then, of course, the artists add their own vision and
nuance.
With All Star Superman, “Frank” and I were able to spend a lot of time together talking it through,
and we agreed it had to be about grids, structure, storybook panel layouts, an elegance of form, a clarity
of delivery. “Classical” in every sense of the word. The medium, the message, the story, the character,
all working together as one simple equation.

Frank Quitely, a Glasgow Art School boy, completely understood without much explanation, the deep
structural underpinnings of the series and how to embody them in his layouts. There’s a scene in issue
# 8, set on the Bizarro world, where we see Le Roj handing Superman his rocket plans. Look at the
arrangement of the figures of Zibarro, Le Roj, Superman and Bizaro–Superman and you’ll see one
attempt to make us of Renaissance compositions.

The sense of sunlit Zen calm we tried to get into All Star is how I imagine it might feel to think the
way Superman thinks all the time - a thought process that is direct, clean, precise, mathematical,
ordered. A mind capable of fantastical imagination but grounded in the everyday of his farm
upbringing with nice decent folks. Rich with humour and tears and deep human significance, yet tuned
to a higher key. We tried to hum along for a little while, that’s all.

In honor of the character’s primal position in the development of the superhero narrative, I hoped we
could create an “ultimate” hero story, starring the ultimate superhero.

Basically, I suppose I felt Superman deserved the utmost application of our craft and intelligence in
order to truly do him justice.

Otherwise, I couldn’t have written this book if I hadn’t watched my big, brilliant dad decline into
incoherence and death. I couldn’t have written it if I’d never had my heart broken, or mended. I
couldn’t have written it if I hadn’t known what it felt like to be idolized, misunderstood, hated for no
clear reason, loved for all my faults, forgotten, remembered...

Writing All Star Superman was, in retrospect, also a way of keeping my mind in the clean sunshine
while plumbing the murkiest depths of the imagination with that old pair of c****s Darkseid and
Doctor Hurt. Good riddance.

Newsarama: This is touched on in other questions, but how much of the Silver/Bronze Age backstory
matters here? What do you see as Superman's life prior to All-Star Superman? (What was going on
with this Superman while the Byrne revamp took hold?)

Grant Morrison: When I introduced the series in an interview online, I suggested that All Star
Superman could be read as the adventures of the ‘original’ Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Superman,
returning after 20 plus years of adventures we never got to see because we were watching John Byrne‘s
New Superman on the other channel. If ‘Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?’ and the
Byrne reboot had never happened, where would that guy be now?

This was more to provide a sense, probably limited and ill-considered, of what the tone of the book
might be like. I never intended All Star Superman as a direct continuation of the Weisinger or Julius
Schwartz-era Superman stories. The idea was always to create another new version of Superman using
all my favorite elements of past stories, not something ‘Age’ specific.
I didn’t collect Superman comics until the ‘70s and I’m not interested enough in pastiche or nostalgia
to spend 6 years of my life playing post-modern games with Superman. All Star isn’t written, drawn or
colored to look or read like a Silver Age comic book.

All Star Superman is not intended as arch commentary on continuity or how trends in storytelling
have changed over the decades. It’s not retro or meta or anything other than its own simple self; a piece
of drawing and writing that is intended by its makers to capture the spirit of its subject to the best of
their capabilities, wisdom and talent.

Which is to say, we wanted our Superman story be about life, not about comics or superheroes, current
events or politics. It’s about how it feels, specifically to be a man...in our dreams! Hopefully that means
our 12 issues are also capable of wide interpretation.

So as much as we may have used a few recognizable Silver Age elements like Van-Zee and Sylv(i)a
and the Bottle City of Kandor, the ensemble Daily Planet cast embodies all the generations of
Superman. Perry White is from 1940, Steve Lombard is from the Schwartz-era ‘70s, Ron Troupe - the
only black man in Metropolis - appeared in 1991. Cat Grant is from 1987 And so on.

P.R.O.J.E.C.T. refers back to Jack Kirby’s DNA Project from his ‘70s Jimmy Olsen stories, as well as
to The Cadmus Project from ’90s Superboy and Superman stories. Doomsday is ‘90s. Kal Kent, Solaris
and the Infant Universe of Qwewq all come from my own work on Superman in the same decade. Pa
Kent’s heart attack is from ‘Superman the Movie‘. We didn’t use Brainiac because he’d been the big
bad in Earth 2 but if we had, we’d have used Brainiac’s Kryptonian origin from the animated series
and so on.

I also used quite a few elements of John Byrne’s approach. Byrne made a lot of good decisions when
he rebooted the whole franchise in 1986 and I wanted to incorporate as much as I could of those too..

Our Superman in All Star was never Superboy, for instance. All Star Superman landed on Earth as a
normal, if slightly stronger and fitter infant, and only began to manifest powers in adolescence when
he’d finally soaked up enough yellow solar radiation to trigger his metamorphosis.

The Byrne logic seemed to me a better way to explain how his powers had developed across the
decades, from the skyscraper leaps of the early days to the speed-of-light space flight of the high Silver
Age. And more importantly, it made the Superman myth more poignant - the story of a farm boy who
turned into an alien as he reached adolescence. I felt that was something that really enriched Superman.
He grew away from his home, his family, his adopted species as he became Superman. His teenage
years are a record of his transformation from normal boy to super-being.

As you say, there are more than just Silver Age influences in the book. Basically we tried to create a
perfect synthesis of every Superman era. So much so, that it should just be taken as representative of an
‘age’ all its own.

In the end, however, I do think that the Silver Age type stories, with their focus on human problems
and foibles, have a much wider appeal than a lot of the work which followed. They’re more like fables
or folk tales than the later ‘comic book superhero’ stories of Superman when he became just another
colorful costume in the crowd...and perhaps that’s why All Star seemed to resemble those books more
than it does a typical modern Marvel or DC comic. It was our intention to present a more universal,
mainstream Superman.

NRAMA: In your depiction of Krypton and the Kryptonians, you show the complexity of Superman’s
relationship between humanity and Earth even further. Krypton has that scientific paradise quality to it,
but the Kryptonians are also portrayed as slightly aloof and detached, even Jor-El. But from Bar-El to
the people of Kandor, they’re touched by Superman’s goodness. What do you see as the fundamental
difference between Kryptonians and Earthlings, and how has Superman’s character been shaped by
each?
GM: My version of Krypton was, again, synthesized from a number of different approaches over the
decades.
In mythic terms, if Superman is the story of a young king, found and raised by common people, then
Krypton is the far distant kingdom he lost. It’s the secret bloodline, the aristocratic heritage that makes
him special, and a hero. At the same time, Krypton is something that must be left behind for Superman
to become who he is - i.e. one of us. Krypton gives him his scientific clarity of mind, Earth makes his
heart blaze.

I liked the very early Jerry Siegel descriptions where Krypton is a planet of advanced supermen and
women (I already played with that a little in Marvel Boy where Noh-Varr was written to be the Marvel
Superboy basically). To that, I added the rich, science fiction detailing of the Silver Age Krypton
stories and the slightly detached coolness that characterized John Byrne’s Krypton, which I re-
interpreted through the lens of Dzogchen Buddhist thought, probably the most pragmatic, chilly and
rational philosophic system on the planet and the closest, I felt, to how Kryptonians might see things.

We also took some time to redesign the crazy, multicolored Kryptonian flag (you can see our version in
Kandor in issue #10). The flag, as originally imagined, seemed like the last thing Kryptonians would
endorse, so we took the multicolored-rays-around-a-circle design and recreated it - the central circle is
now red, representing Krypton’s star, Rao, while the rays, rather than arbitrary colors, become
representations of the spectrum of visible light pouring from Rao into the inky black of space. In this
way, the flag, that bizarre emblem of nationalism becomes a scientific hieroglyph.

Showing Krypton and Kryptonians was also important as a way of stressing why Superman wears that
costume and why it makes absolute sense that he looks the way he does. I don’t see the red and blue
suit as a flag or as rewoven baby blankets. There’s no need for Superman to dress the way he does but
it made sense to think of his outfit as his ‘national costume‘.

The way I see it, the standard superhero outfit, the familiar Superman suit with the pants on the outside,
is what everyone wore on Krypton, give or take a few fashion accessories like hoods and headbands,
chest crests and variant colors. In fact, all other superheroes are just copying the fashions on Krypton,
lost planet of the super-people.

Superman wears his ’action-suit’ the way a patriotic Scotsman would wear a kilt. It’s a sign of his pride
in his alien heritage.

Newsarama: Although All–Star Superman ties in with DC One Million, you style of writing has
changed dramatically since then.  How do you feel about One Million now?

Grant Morrison: I just read it again and liked it a lot. Comics were definitely happier, breezier and
more confident in their own strengths before Hollywood and the Internet turned the business of writing
superhero stories into the production of low budget storyboards or, worse, into conformist, fruitless
attempts to impress or entertain a small group of people who appear to hate comics and their creators.

NRAMA: Obviously, this book is the most explicit SF–Christ story since Behold the Man,
only...happy.  Superman/Christ parallels have existed for decades, but this story makes it absolutely
explicit, from laying his hands on the sick and dying to...well, most of issue #12.  You’ve dealt with
Christ themes before, particularly in The Mystery Play, but outside of the comics, how do you see
Superman as a Christ figure for the “real” world?

GM: The “Superman as Christ” thing is a little too reductive for me, and tends to overlook the fact that
Superman is by no means a pacifist in the Christ sense. Superman would never turn the other cheek;
Superman punches out the bully. Superman is a fighter.
When did Christ ever batter the Devil through a mountain?

The thing I disliked about the Superman Returns movie was the American Christ angle, which reduced
Superman to a sniveling, masochistic wreck, crawling around on the floor, taking a kicking from
everyone. This approach had an odd and slightly disturbing S&M flavor, which didn’t play well to the
character’s strengths at all and seemed to derive entirely from a kind of Catholic vision of the suffering,
martyred Jesus.

It’s not that he’s based on Jesus, but simply that a lot of the mythical sun god elements which have
been layered onto the Christ story also appear in the story of Superman.
I suppose I see Superman more as pagan sci–fi. He’s a secular messiah, a science redeemer with tough
guy muscles and a very direct and clear morality.

NRAMA: Continuing the religious themes, in issue #10, you have Superman literally giving birth to
himself, both philosophically and as a character – a nice little meta–moment showing how Superman
inspires a world where he is only fiction.  How did that idea come about?

GM: It came from the challenge we’d set ourselves: as I said, issue #10 had been left as a blank space
into which the single most coherent condensation of all our ideas about Superman were destined to fit.

I wanted to do a “day in the life” story. So much of All Star had been about this threat to Superman
himself, so we wanted to show him going about a typical day saving people and doing good.

Then came the title “Neverending,” which comes from the opening announcement – “Faster than a
speeding bullet!...” of the Superman radio show from 1940, and seemed to me to be as good a title for a
Superman story as any I could think of. It seemed to distil everything about Superman’s battle and his
legend into a single word. And the story structure itself was designed to loop endlessly, so it went well
with that.

 On top of that went the idea of the Last Will and Testament of Superman. A dying god writing his will
seemed like an interesting structure to use. Then came the idea to fit all of human history into that
single 24 hours. And then to show the development of the Superman idea through human culture from
the earliest Australian Aboriginal notions of super–beings ‘descended” from the sky, through the
complex philosophical system of Hinduism, onto the Renaissance concept of the ideal man, via the
refinements of Nietzche and finally, down to that smiling, hopeful Joe Shuster sketch; the final
embodiment of humanity’s glorious, uplifting notion of the superman become reduced to a drawing, a
story for kids, a worthless comic book.

And also what that could mean in a holographic fractal universe, where the smallest part contains and
reflects the whole.

Of course the next panel in that sequence is happening in the real world and would show you, the
reader, sitting with the latest Superman issue in your hands, deep within the Infant Universe of Qwewq
in the Fortress of Solitude, today, wherever you are. In “Neverending,” the reader becomes wrapped in
a self–referential loop of story and reality. If you actually, seriously think about what is happening at
this point in the story, if you meditate upon the curious entanglement of the real and the fictional, you
will become enlightened in this life apparently. According to some texts.

NRAMA: On a personal level, you’ve explored all types of religions and philosophies in your work. 
What is your take on religion and how it influences humanity, and the Christian take on Jesus Christ in
particular?

GM: I think religion per se, is a ghastly blight on the progress of the human species towards the stars. 
At the same time, it, or something like it, has been an undeniable source of comfort, meaning and hope
for the majority of poor bastards who have ever lived on Earth, so I’m not trying to write it off
completely. I just wish that more people were educated to a standard where they could understand what
religion is and how it works. Yes, it got us through the night for a while, but ultimately, it’s one of
those ugly, stupid arse–over–backwards things we could probably do without now, here on the Planet
of the Apes.

Religion is to spirituality what porn is to sex. It’s what the Hollywood 3–act story template is to real
creative writing.

Religion creates a structure which places “special,” privileged people (priests) between ordinary people
and the divine, as if there could even be any separation: as if every moment, every thought, every
action was not already an expression of  dynamic ‘divinity” at work.

As I’ve said before, the solid world is just the part of heaven we’re  privileged to touch and play with.
You don’t need a priest or a holy man to talk to “god” on your behalf just close your eyes and say
hello: “god” is no more, no less, than the sum total of all matter, all energy, all consciousness, as
experienced or conceptualized from a timeless perspective where everything ever seems to present all
at once. “God” is in everything, all the time and can be found there by looking carefully. The entire
universe, including the scary, evil bits, is a thought “God” is thinking, right now.

As far as I can figure it out from my own reading and my own experience of how the spiritual world
works, Jesus was, as they say, way cool: a man who achieved a state of consciousness, which
nowadays would get him a diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy (in the days of the Emperor Tiberius, he
was crucified for his ideas, today he’d be laughed at, mocked or medicated).

This “holistic” mode of consciousness (which Luthor experiences briefly at the end of All Star
Superman) announces itself as a heartbreaking connection, a oneness, with everything that exists...but
you don’t have to be Superman to know what that feeling is like. There are a ton of meditation
techniques which can take you to this place. I don’t see it as anything supernatural or religious, in fact,
I think it’s nothing more than a developmental level of human consciousness, like the ability to see
perspective – which children of 4 cannot do but children of 6 can.

Everyone who’s familiar with this upgrade will tell you the same thing: it feels as if “alien” or
“angelic” voices – far more intelligent, coherent and kindly than the voices you normally hear in your
head – are explaining the structure of time and space and your place in it.
This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible
thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with
“God.”  However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and
concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God, so I’m not here to give anyone a
hard time over interpretation.

Some people have the experience and believe the God of their particular culture has chosen them
personally to have a chat with. These people may become born–again Christians, fundamentalist
Muslims, devotees of Shiva, or misunderstood lunatics.
Some “contactees” interpret the voices they hear erroneously as communications from an otherworldly,
alien intelligence, hence the proliferation of “abduction” accounts in recent decades, which share most
of their basic details with similar accounts, from earlier centuries, of people being taken away by
“fairies” or “little people”.

Some, who like to describe themselves as magicians, will recognize the “alien” voice as the “Holy
Guardian Angel”.

In timeless, spaceless consciousness, the singular human mind blurs into a direct experience of the
totality of all consciousness that has ever been or will ever be. It feels like talking with God but I see
that as an aspect of science, not religion.

As Peter Barnes wrote in “The Ruling Class”, “I know I must be God because when I pray to Him, I
find I’m talking to myself.”
Newsarama: When we spoke earlier this year, you talked about some of your ideas for future All Star
stories. Are you moving forward on those, or have you started working on different ideas since then?

Grant Morrison: I haven’t had time to think about them for a while. I did have the stories worked out,
and I’d like to do more, but right now it feels like Frank and Jamie and I have said all there is to be
said. I don’t know if I’m ready to do All Star Superman with anyone else right now. I have other
plans.

NRAMA: You end the book with Superman having uplifted humanity – having inspired them through
his sacrifice and great deeds, and with the potential to pass his powers on to humanity still there. Do
you plan to explore this concept further, or would you prefer to leave it open–ended?

GM: I may go back to the Son of Superman in some way. At the same time, it’s best left open–ended. I
like the idea that Superman gets to have his cake and eat it; he becomes golden and mythical and lives
forever as a dream. Yet, he also is able to sire a child who will carry his legacy into the future. He kicks
ass in both the spiritual and the temporal spheres!

NRAMA: The notion of transcendence – always a big part of your work. But the debate about All Star
Superman is whether or not it "transcends its genre." Superman becomes transcendent within the
series itself, and inspires the beings on Qwewq, but does the work aspire to more than that? Is it simply
the greatest version of a Superman story, and that’s enough?

GM: That would certainly be enough if it were true.

It’s a pretty high–level attempt by some smart people to do the Superman concept some justice, is all I
can say. It’s intended to work as a set of sci–fi fables that can be read by children and adults alike. I’d
like to think you can go to it if you’re feeling suicidal, if you miss your dad, if you’ve had to take care
of a difficult, ailing relative, if you’ve ever lost control and needed a good friend to put you straight, if
you love your pets, if you wish your partner could see the real you...All Star is about how Superman
deals with all of that.

It’s a big old Paul Bunyan style mythologizing of human - and in particular male - experience. In that
sense I’d like to think All Star Superman does transcend genre in that it’s intended to be read on its
own terms and needs absolutely no understanding of genre conventions or history around it to grasp
what’s going on.

In today’s world, in today’s media climate designed to foster the fear our leaders like us to feel because
it makes us easier to push around. In a world where limp, wimpy men are forced to talk tough and act
‘badass’ even though we all know they’re shitting it inside. In a world where the measure of our moral
strength has come to lie in the extremity of the images we’re able to look at and stomach. In a world,
I’m reliably told, that’s going to the dogs, the real mischief, the real punk rock rebellion, is a snarling,
‘fuck you’ positivity and optimism. Violent optimism in the face of all evidence to the contrary is the
Alpha form of outrage these days. It really freaks people out.

I have a desire not to see my culture and my fellow human beings fall helplessly into step with a
middle class media narrative that promises only planetary catastrophe, as engineered by an intrinsically
evil and corrupt species which, in fact, deserves everything it gets.

Is this relentless, downbeat insistence that the future has been cancelled really the best we can come up
with? Are we so fucked up we get off on terrifying our children? It’s not funny or ironic anymore and
that’s why we wrote All Star Superman the way we did. Everything hs changed. ‘Dark’ entertainment
now looks like hysterical, adolescent, ‘Zibarro’ crap. That’s what my Final Crisis series is about too.

NRAMA (aka Tim Callahan): Continuing with the theme of transcendence: The words "ineffectual"
and "surrender" are repeated throughout the book. Discuss.
GM: Discuss yourself, Callahan! I know you have the facilities and I should think it’s all rather
obvious.
What was the inspiration for the image of Superman in the sun at the end? (I confess this question
comes as the result of much unsuccessful Googling)

I didn’t have any specific reference in mind - just that one we‘ve all sort of got in our heads. I drew the
figure as a sketch, intended to be reminiscent of William Blake’s cosmic figures, Russian
Constructivist Soviet Socialist Worker type posters, and Leonardo’s ‘Proportions of the Human
Figure‘. The position of the legs hints at the Buddhist swastika, the clockwise sun symbol. It was to
me, the essence of that working class superheroic ideal I mentioned, condensed into a final image of
mythic Superman, - our eternal, internal, guiding, selfless, tireless, loving superstar. The daft All Star
Superman title of the comic is literalised in this last picture. It’s the ‘fearful symmetry’ of the
Enlightenment project - an image of genius, toil, and our need to make things, to fashion art and
artefacts, as a form of superhuman, divine imitation.

It was Superman as this fusion of Renaissance/Enlightenment ideas about Man and Cosmos, an
impossible union of Blake and Newton. A Pop Art ‘Vitruvian Man‘. The inspiration for the first letter
of the new future alphabet!

As you can see, we spent a lot of time thinking about all this and purifying it down to our own version
of the gold. I’m glad it’s over.

NRAMA: Finally: What, above all else, would you like people to take away from All Star Superman?

GM: That we spent a lot of time thinking about this!

No. What I hope is that people take from it the unlikelihood that a piece of paper, with little ink
drawings of figures, with little written words, can make you cry, can make your heart soar, can make
you scared, sad, or thrilled. How mental is that ?

That piece of paper is inert material, the corpse of some tree, pulped and poured, then given new
meaning and new life when the real hours and real emotions that the writer and the artist, the colourist,
the letter the editor translated onto the physical page, meet with the real hours and emotions of a reader,
of all readers at once, across time, generations and distance.

And think about how that experience, the simple experience of interacting with a paper comic book,
along with hundreds of thousands of others across time and space, is an actual doorway onto the
beating heart of the imminent, timeless world of “Myth” as defined above. Not just a drawing of it but
an actual doorway into timelessness and the immortal world where we are all one together.

My grief over the loss of my dad can be Superman’s grief, can trigger your own grief, for your own
dad, for all our dads. The timeless grief that’s felt by Muslims and Christians and Agnostics alike. My
personal moments of great and romantic love, untainted by the everyday, can become Superman’s and
may resonate with your own experience of these simple human feelings.

In the one Mythic moment we’re all united, kissing our Lover for the First time, the Last time the Only
time, honouring our dear Dad under a blood red sky, against a darkening backdrop, with Mum telling
us it’ll all be okay in the end.

If we were able to capture even a hint of that place and share it with our readers, that would be good
enough for me.
SUICIDE GIRLS

Daniel Robert Epstein: Hey Grant, are you taking a break from work today?

Grant Morrison: I wish I could take a break! I'm wrapping up my novel – the IF - right now because
I'm kind of over the deadline. I'm also doing this Shining Knight comic for DC so I don't have much
time on my hands.

DRE:

Is the IF a full length novel?

GM:

So far it's about 320 pages and I'm getting near to the editing stage. It's been a long hard slog and I'm
looking forward to relaxing.

DRE:

What's the novel about?

GM:

It's about an ex-special forces SAS soldier who gets kidnapped and is forced to write the manifesto of a
terrorist group. The terrorist group is composed of teenagers who claim to come from outer space
[laughs]. It's a bit like 'Children of the Damned' meets 'A Clockwork Orange' and the basic idea is what
might happen if children decided to go to war with adults. The hero has to write the account of what
happens and I have to write about him writing it.

DRE:

Is it a totally linear novel or does it go off like some of your comic work?

GM:

It's got a pretty straight high concept and a simple thriller plot but within that concept we explore a lot
of weird stuff and look at the world in a different kind of way as seen through the eyes of these
unearthly youngsters.

DRE:

Your new comic book for DC Comics, Seven Soldiers, is that a miniseries that crosses over into other
books?

GM:

It's not so much that. The whole thing is something I've decided to call a mega-series because no one
has done anything like it before so it's down to me to give it a daft name. I've done seven four-issue
miniseries featuring a bunch of C-list superheroes from the DC Comics back catalogue. It's a bit like
one of those celebrity reality shows where a gang of has-beens get their 15 minutes of fame and a
chance to prove what they can do. So there are seven characters and each character gets four books
which tell a very distinct story and reintroduce that character to the audience. Each of the four issues
are also self-contained reads because I wanted to try a completely modular story. If you read them all
together it comes together like a Robert Altman movie. Every one of them connects and something that
someone does in the Mister Miracle book, for instance, might have an effect in the Shining Knight
book six months later. It ends up being about seven people who have to save the world without meeting
one another. And unlike traditional superheroes these characters are all quite reluctant - they're
entertainers or accident survivors or exiles with special abilities who find themselves in a situation
they're forced to use all their resources to deal with.
It's a purely conceptual superhero team and it's basically me making up a bunch of stuff for some really
obscure DC titles that I felt had the potential to be rethought, upgraded, updated and charged with new
energy. You can't do much to change Superman and Batman or any of the big name icon characters.
But the Seven Soldiers heroes are all ones I felt were really strong and adaptable and no one had given
them a lot of thought since they'd been created. I've come up with a few little interesting franchise ideas
for Warner Bros with these series. We've seen many comics turned into movies and TV shows so I
wanted to take some unregarded characters and polish them up into top notch properties for my
corporate masters.

DRE:

Was the book totally your idea or were you asked to do it by DC?

GM:

It was totally my idea. DC wanted me to do Superman, which I agreed to do as well but Seven Soldiers
was my own pitch. I was just finishing up my long run on New X-Men, which was an interesting
experience but quite restrictive because so much has been done with that concept and the fans have so
many ideas about what the X-Men should and shouldn't be. It makes it quite hard to move or innovate
without offending somebody. And any changes you make in a book like that will always be reversed or
overturned because the licensors come along to demand colorful costumes or a return to traditional
values or whatever. So for me to come off comic book's biggest property and go back to playing
smaller halls, if you like, was an attempt to get back to a place where I could try out some new ideas. I
just wanted to do some mad stuff [laughs]. I couldn't do that with the big iconic characters so I had to
pick the losers no one cares about because there is a lot more creative freedom there so I could push the
boundaries.

DRE:

It doesn't sound dissimilar to what you did with Animal Man, but I'm guessing it will be more
straightforward than that book.

GM:

It will be like Animal Man in the sense that I've taken the whole idea of each revamp really seriously
and I've completely reconsidered these characters and their relevance to the way we live today. There
isn't any of the trippy metatextual stuff from Animal Man but it's a pretty straight up story about ground
level, grass roots super-people and how they get by. The ones who don't have mansions of secret
headquarters on the moon.

Most of the stories are set in a DC Universe version of New York City. Many Marvel Comics are set in
New York but we've rarely seen it in the DC Universe. We usually see stories in Gotham City,
Metropolis, Star City or some other made up place. The New York in Seven Soldiers is known as 'the
Cinderella city' because it's got two 'ugly sisters' on either side - Batman's brooding Gotham City and
Superman's futuristic Metropolis. What we've done to make the location even more distinctive is finish
off all of New York's big architectural projects that were never completed. So there is the huge
Chinatown development with Confucius Plaza, which was an idea that was floated once and never
followed through. There is also an impressive hotel as proposed by Gaudi himself, which we've got
standing proudly in our fictional city. There's Frank Lloyd Wright's proposed Ellis Island development,
which is an amazing futuristic domed city idea and turns up as the location for The Guardian issue 3.
Then we have the Mid-Manhattan Expressway which again was never built but which runs directly
though this fictionalized New York City. For this series, I wanted to create a world that's very textual
and tactile almost like a virtual reality. The location is very important.

DRE:

Do you get to New York City very often?

GM:

I've been there loads of times just to hang out. I was in Rhinebeck, New York not too long ago.
DRE:

I just got The Filth and the second Doom Patrol trade paperback.

GM:

Oh good, everyone hated The Filth when it was coming out but people seem to be digging it now. It's
been one of my best-selling books.

DRE:

Some books only seem to get to the right audience once it gets collected.

GM:

Yeah and I think Seaguy is going to be the same. Some people seem to have a real problem dealing
with these things on a monthly, serialized basis but the collections always do well.

DRE:

Have you ever thought about not doing books on a monthly basis, at least for books like The Filth?

GM:

I did ask to do something like that for Seaguy and We3. I wanted them to come out as 96 page Manga-
size books but DC wouldn't listen to me. What they decided to do is release the story to the comic book
market as single issues, which is fine because the comic books fans are the ones at the frontlines of the
hobby so it's nice to let them see new material first. I like the Manga size because I'd prefer the new
material to reach a younger audience and that's what they seem to be picking up. The traditional comic
store market is growing increasingly older and more conservative which can make it hard to launch
new characters or stories in that arena.

DRE:

In anticipation of this interview I read The Filth and the second Doom Patrol trade paperback in one
sitting. I don't know if I would recommend for people to do that.

GM:

Doom Patrol will cheer you up and The Filth will depress you. Or is it the other way around? Uppers
and downers. If you juggle them you'll be all right.

DRE:

You've spoken quite openly about the drugs you've done over the years. I had a teacher years ago that
was also a priest and we had an argument over drugs. He said that the same feelings you can reach with
drugs you can get to naturally with meditation.

GM:

That's not true but I do understand what he's trying to say. Theoretically, you can recreate all states of
consciousness just by thinking about them but having tried both meditation and drugs and often both at
the same time I'm not sure about this one. It's a bit like saying you can recreate the feeling of a
Thanksgiving Dinner using meditation. Maybe you could but why would you? Meditation can take you
to some places that some drugs can also take you too but I don't believe meditation can reproduce a
full-on acid experience or a high dose mushroom or DMT trip, nor would it be helpful if it did. It can
reproduce something like an ecstasy experience. Meditators who claim they can recreate all of these
drug states are probably either unfamiliar with the drugs or they're being slightly disingenuous about
the whole issue.

DRE:
You mentioned three drugs right there, when you did Animal Man was it from doing one drug and was
The Invisibles with another drug and etc?

GM:

The weird thing with me is that I'm into magic more than I am drugs and I started my psychedelic
experiments very late, as an adjunct to my magical work. I ate a little bit of hash when I was 24 and I
had some mushrooms when I was 28 but otherwise I was totally straight edge until I was 31. I was in a
psychedelic punk band where we didn't drink, smoke or take drugs! I only got into drugs when I felt
sorted emotionally enough to deal with the effects and I had good magical reasons for doing so. Then
in 90's I joined the rave party and spent every single day of the decade getting totally wrecked on mind-
altering substances which, I have to admit, I enjoyed immensely. I was never keen on stimulants like
cocaine and speed because they did nothing useful or interesting for me but I loved the psychedelic
drugs which could twist my head, erase my name and address, open up my subconscious and turn my
brain into a super-conductor, so I dosed like a madman for ten years, studied the effects and wrote it all
down in The Invisibles and Flex Mentallo in particular. Zenith, Animal Man and Arkham Asylum are
pretty straight edge and Doom Patrol shows the influence of shrooms from around the time of those
Insect Mesh issues but I was mostly doing it straight. The 90’s work emerged from the cockpit of a
rocket-driven rollercoaster of LSD, cannabis, mushrooms, DMT, 2CB, ecstasy and champagne.

DRE:

How about now?

GM:

The Filth was downers.

DRE:

Did you specifically take those to see what would happen with The Filth?

GM:

I didn't really take them. I was just coming off the high that was the 90's and it's all there on the page.
The new stuff is all inspired by music and nature and seems a lot more effortless, I suppose. It's like
The White Album after Sergeant Pepper and Yellow Submarine.

DRE:

People want these kinds of questions answered.

GM:

It's best to know the truth because people have a lot of weird ideas about what I do with my time.

DRE:

I read a lot about how The Invisibles was so personal and autobiographical for you. I haven't seen your
plays but have you ever done straight autobiography?

GM:

Not really. Pop Mag!c is a book I'm doing right now which is kind of an account of all the occult stuff
I've studied and the personal system of magic I've developed over the years so it has a lot of
autobiography in it. Otherwise I tend to turn events in my life into the symbolic material that fills the
stories. All the autobiographical stuff ends up in the work - if I'm feeling depressed, I'll call the
depression something like Primordial Annihilator and send the Justice League in to kick its arse. The
Invisibles was mostly stuff that was actually happening to me. I was up on a sacred mesa in New
Mexico doing acid with a medicine man and all that. The dialogue for that whole sequence, in fact, was
based on tape recordings I made of conversations I had with my friends on the mesa. A lot of stuff went
straight into the book, such as going to Ladakh or Ulruru or San Francisco sex clubs.
DRE:

Would you rather do fewer comics and more of something else?

GM:

I wouldn't mind but in 2004 I wrote a novel, a screenplay for DreamWorks and something like 40
comics, among other things. It would be nice to have a year where I only have to do one major project
so there would be more time to make music or travel and hang out with friends. I still love comics and I
guess I can't stop coming back to them but I don't think I would want to write a long-running monthly
series again. I've said that before though.

DRE:

What was the screenplay for DreamWorks about?

GM:

It's a movie about Halloween called Sleepless Knights.

DRE:

I read that sometimes you would write about stuff in The Invisibles then it would actually happen.

GM:

I got so enmeshed in it that I was producing holographic voodoo effects and found that I could make
stuff happen just by writing about it. At the conclusion of volume one, I put the King Mob character in
a situation where he was being tortured and he gets told that his face is being eaten away by bacteria
and within a few months my own face was being eaten away by infection. I still have the scar. It's a
pretty cool scar to but at the time it was really distressing. Then I had the character dying and within a
few months, there I was dying in the hospital of blood poisoning and staph aureus infection. As I lay
dying, I wrote my character out of trouble and somehow survived. I used the text as medicine to get
myself out of trouble. Writing became a way of keeping myself alive.

As soon as I was out of hospital I made sure my character had a good time and got a laid a lot and
within months I was having the time of my life.

DRE:

Why do comics enthrall you so much?

GM:

Magic. It was always really fascinating to me that Superman was so much older than me and yet I
could come along and write adventures with Superman in them and add to his life story. Then I could
die and Superman would keep going, with other people writing stories to keep him alive. He's more
real than I am because he has a longer lifespan and more influence, so this notion of the 'real' 2-
dimensional world of the comics and what it had to say to the 'real' 3-dimensional world of non-
fictional people. That really connected with me in a big way and helped me grapple with big ideas
about the universe and life and death. I wanted to really 'make contact' with that world and bargain with
its inhabitants. I saw it as the lynchpin of my magic. The comic universes are living breathing alternate
worlds we can visit. And, if we're lucky enough to be comic book writers we get to play directly with
the inhabitants and environments of the 2nd dimension. I wanted to travel in those worlds. By the time
I was doing The Invisibles I had gotten past the idea of just putting a drawing of myself in a comic, as I
did in Animal Man. I wanted to treat the story like a real continuum. I wanted to really get involved
with the comic, in the two dimensional surface of the comic itself and at the point of interface where 2-
d becomes 3-d and then touches 4-d. I wanted to see if I could exchange places with a comic book
character, so I made myself look like King Mob, and started to have adventures so I would have stuff to
write about. I wasn't blowing up military installations or killing Japanese terrorists but I was running
around the world in bunker boots and black vinyl, doing magic and meeting all these amazing girls
who were actually getting off with King Mob's spirit in my body.
DRE:

Would you throw yourself into something like you did with The Invisibles again?

GM:

I'd do it again because I can't help it but I haven't been doing much more than sitting in my room
writing lately, so I need to get out and about again. The same sort of thing happened with The Filth
except I used a lot of the bad elements of my life. I like to surrender to and immerse myself in the
environment of the comic book. The experience always teaches me something important.

DRE:

In the 1980's Jim Valentino was a somewhat well known autobiographical comic book artist. When his
autobiographical work was reprinted in the 90’s he considers the superheroes that he works on to be
adolescent power fantasies but he needs to do them for fiscal reasons. Is that the case for you?

GM:

I've never felt that I 'had to' write superhero stories in lieu of more honest work. The superheroes work
just fine for me and seem to be able to express all manner of things I need to express. The superhero as
a metaphor can carry a lot of weight and meaning if you want it to. All stories come from someone's
experience and say at least something about the human condition by their very nature. It all depends on
the audience. I think comics were more interesting when they were written for children because when
people write for children it seems to free them up to be less self-conscious. Traditional American
superhero comics are being written for an older audience now. I think that since superhero comics
started being aimed at adults they've become a bit too self conscious and a bit less visionary. I don't
know why that is because adults should enjoy fantastical stuff as much as any child.

DRE:

Who would you like to be reading the superhero comic books that you do?

GM:

I write for the intelligent 14 year old because that's how old I was when I really got into comic books in
a big way. I was a smart kid and I liked Jim Starlin's Warlock and Dr. Strange by Steve Englehart
because even though they were written and drawn by heads doing cosmic, philosophical acid stuff it
was still soap opera action comics with monsters and villains and it fed me on so many levels.

DRE:

In your introduction to the first Doom Patrol trade paperback you mentioned that you read the book,
When Rabbit Howls, as research for Crazy Jane. That really got me into that book. Has anyone ever
told you that you inspired them to study philosophy or other concepts you've touched on?

GM:

There have been a few people. Doom Patrol was pretty popular and Steven Shapiro did a well-regarded
postmodern study called 'Doom Patrols' which talked about the book a lot. We also used to get letters
from people who'd suffered from Multiple Personality Disorder and they told us it had really helped
them to find a character like Crazy Jane who they could relate to. I used to say that I wished all their
multiples would buy a copy of the comic and boost our sales!

DRE:

I don't know how often you read your older work, but what does it bring back when you do read?

GM:

Where I was at the time, what I was thinking and also I usually feel as if I'm reading something I've
never read before. The older you get, the fresher things become in hindsight. I just got a copy of the
second Doom Patrol trade paperback and I thought it was great. Usually as soon as I finish working on
something I absolutely hate it and that includes The Invisibles and all the other favorites. It's a kind of
post-natal depression. I have to wait a bit before I can look back on it, and then I usually love it all over
again, for different reasons.

DRE:

How much research do you do?

GM:

Not much. I never have time to research. There's always a looming deadline. For something like Doom
Patrol it's more along the lines of that's what I was into when I was doing the book rather than me
going out and doing dedicated research. Whatever I'm writing in the stories is coming from what I'm
doing in the real world. I was 28 when I started Doom Patrol and there was this explosion for me, of art
and of 'magic realist' writing by Calvino, Borges or Landolfi, postmodern TV surrealism with things
like David Lynch and Vic Reeves. I was into Jan Svankmajer movies, Thomas DeQuincey, Cocteau,
Joyce, Anais Nin, Leonora Carrington, Maya Deren and things like that. Whatever new input came into
my head, it affected the flavor of the stories I was doing. I was devouring books about Dada, the
decadents, the Futurists, Wyndham Lewis, Austin Spare, Situationism and all the usual suspects at the
time of Doom Patrol but I stopped reading soon after that.

DRE:

You really stopped reading books?

GM:

I stopped reading fiction about 1990. I didn't read a lot of anything after that because I was too busy
doing stuff and writing. I can't be bothered reading books because I usually know what's going to
happen by page three [laughs]. A lot of people still think I read cyberpunk books or loads of Philip K.
Dick or whatever but I haven't had any interest in science fiction since a brief but inspirational teenage
obsession with the 'New Wave' generation of Moorcock, Ballard and Ellison. I don't know. I like poetry
and I prefer experimental, non-linear, automatic or surrealist writing but these days I just read comics
and watch DVDs for my fiction dose.

DRE:

This may be old news but was the controversy over The Matrix films being like The Invisibles blown
out of proportion?

GM:

It's really simple. The truth of that one is that design staff on The Matrix were given Invisibles
collections and told to make the movie look like my books. This is a reported fact. The Wachowskis
are comic book creators and fans and were fans of my work, so it's hardly surprising. I was even
contacted before the first Matrix movie was released and asked if I would contribute a story to the
website.

It's not some baffling 'coincidence' that so much of The Matrix is plot by plot, detail by detail, image by
image, lifted from Invisibles so there shouldn't be much controversy. The Wachowskis nicked The
Invisibles and everyone in the know is well aware of this fact but of course they're unlikely to come out
and say it.

It was just too bad they deviated so far from the Invisibles philosophical template in the second and
third movies because they blundered helplessly into boring Catholic theology, proving that they hadn't
HAD the 'contact' experience that drove The Invisibles, and they wrecked both
'Reloaded' and 'Revolutions' on the rocks of absolute incomprehension. They should have kept on
stealing from me and maybe they would have wound up with something to really be proud of - a movie
that could change minds and hearts and worlds.

I love the first Matrix movie which I think is a real work of cinematic genius and very timely but I've
now heard from several people who worked on The Matrix and they've all confirmed that they were
given Invisibles books as reference. That's how it is. I'm not angry about it anymore, although at one
time I was because they made millions from what was basically a Xerox of my work and to be honest, I
would be happy with just one million so I didn't have to work thirteen hours of every fucking day,
including weekends.

In the end, I was glad they got the ideas out but very disappointed that they blew it so badly and
distorted all the Gnostic transcendental aspects that made the first film so strong and potent. If they had
any sense, they would have befriended me instead of pissing me off. They seem like nice boys.

DRE:

Sebastian O was also released in a trade paperback this year which I haven't read since it came out.

GM:

That's like the Matrix too!

That's probably one of the books that made people think I was into cyberpunk or steampunk or
whatever. Sebastian O came about because I was reading a lot of stuff by decadent authors and people
like Oscar Wilde and Baudelaire. I thought it would be fun to take an Oscar Wilde character and put
him into a futuristic Victorian era with computers. Decadent authors were obsessed with artifice and
they affected a hatred of gooey, slimy nature so I thought that tied in nicely to ideas about virtual
reality which were starting to show up when I was writing the book. I saw virtual reality was the
decadent dream come true - a world where everything could be artificial, synthetic and perfectly
beautiful.

DRE:

Would you want to check out that world?

GM:

I would wear his clothes but I don't want to be Sebastian. I don't think he gets any sex and if he does it's
a bit mauve.

DRE:

As you said, comic books keep going after any writer or artist is done with them, what do you think of
Joss Whedon putting the X-Men back into their costumes?

GM:

Joss Whedon is doing good work but the costumes change every couple of years regardless. I know the
decision to return to a more retro-spandex look was being made by Marvel's licensors because they felt
the 'urban' black and yellow look didn't come across well enough on lunchboxes and schoolbooks or on
video game screens. They wanted something that was brighter and more colorful. A yellow Wolverine
basically. If I'd stayed on the book I would have had to write the costume change too. The new
costumes are a bit of a retreat, I have to say.

DRE:

John Cassaday does draw them nice though.

GM:

Cassaday is doing a great job. He's hitting new peaks all the time.

DRE:

What religion did you grow up with?

Nothing [laughs]. My dad was an atheist and my mother was a lapsed Catholic so I didn't understand
any of it. I live in Glasgow which is a city torn apart by sectarian violence but somehow, in my naiveté,
I grew up without grasping any of the alleged difference between Protestants and Catholics. I went to
school with Baptists, atheists, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims while some of my friends went to a
segregated school that only accepted 'Catholics'. I didn't really question it for some reason and I had no
idea I was watching bigotry and separatism in action. I used to go to Sunday School but that was for the
free orange juice.

DRE:

I read that you felt you had a miserable adolescence.

GM:

My childhood was great, then adolescence was awful. I was isolated from people. I went to an all boy's
school which was a big mistake because I wasn't gay. I hated it because I didn't know any girls and I
lived in a tiny house above a supermarket with my mother and sister for more years than is healthy for
a young man. I just sat and read comics and listened to records, all Morrissey-like, until I was 19 when
I got a band together and got out. Though I think if I hadn't had that intense horrible time on my own, I
just wouldn't be writing for a living today. Making comics got me through my teenage years and
disciplined my wayward energies very effectively.

DRE:

What's the next thing you'll be doing after you finish your novel?

GM:

I want to wrap up Pop Mag!c then I'll probably do something with We3 which is the cybernetic animal
comic that's just come out. There are a few people interested in doing a movie version so I fancy
writing the script for that if I can. Then I'm doing 12 issues Superman with Frank Quitely for DC's new
'All-Star' line.

DRE:

Would you want to direct movies?

GM:

Naw, I couldn't be bothered. I hate telling people what to do.