George Kent Testimony
George Kent Testimony
George Kent Testimony
6 j oi nt wi th the
7 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM
8 and the
9 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,
l1 WASHINGTON, D.C.
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I Appea rances:
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l5 ANDREW WRIGHT
l6 BARRY M. HARTMAN
t7 NANCY IHEANCHO
t9 1-601 K Street NW
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t6 mi nor i ty.
t7 MR. G0LDMAN: Now this depos'ition will be conducted
l8 enti rely at the unclassi f i ed Ieve1. However, th'is
t9 deposition, as you no doubt know, is being conducted in
20 HPSCI's secure spaces, and in the presence of staff with the
2t appropriate security clearances, and, as we understand as of
22 thi s morni ng, your attorneys all have appropri ate securi ty
23 clearances. We understand that you recejved a letter from
24 the State Department that addresses some of the concerns
25 about the disctosure of classified information. But we want
12
25 all staff and members here will wait until you finish your
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9 Assistant Secretary Kent, now is the time for you to make any
10 openi ng remarks.
l1 MR. ZELDIN: Mr. Goldman, can we just go around the room
t2 and have everybody identify themselves?
l3 MR. GOLDMAN: You want back? Why don't we start at the
t4 table here. Mr. Qui g1ey.
l5 MR. QUIGLEY: Mike Quigley from I1linois.
t6 MS. SPEIER: Jackje Speier.
l7 MR. SWALWELL:Eric Swa1we11.
l8 M5. SEWELL: Terri Sewe11.
t9 MR. ROUDA: Harley Rouda.
20 MR. RASKIN: Jamie Raskin, for Marytand.
2t MR. HECK: Denny Heck, Washington State.
22 MR. MALINOWSKI: Tom Malinowski, New Jersey.
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ll BY MR. GOLDMAN:
I mi c off.
2 BY MR GOLDMAN:
J a of that document
Are you aware of the status
4 production by the State Department related to your personal
5 documents or professional documents, I should say?
6 A I collected all the different types of records that
7 possibly could be consjdered part of the request and provided
8 them to the listed authority at the State Department.
9 a And have you had any followup conversations about
l0 production of those documents?
ll A I have not.
12 a Have you had any conversations, separate and apart,
l3 from the letters that we understand you received? Have you
t4 had any type of conversations wjth the State Department --
l5 anyone at the State Department about your testimony here
l6 tod ay ?
2l test i fy?
22 A The i nteract'ion consi sted of letters through
23 counsel.
24 a So you had no personnel conversations with anyone?
9 A It occurred.
l0 a at that meeting?
And what happened
ll A We had roughly 20 members of European Bureau sti11
25 European Bureau staff, there could have been more, but they
26
22 had?
I then the next sort of point was the meeting, the guidance,
2 our the European Bureau's meeting at 9 o'clock on October
J 3rd.
4 a And since 0ctober 3rd, until today, 0ctober L5th'
5 i s anythi ng else any other further conversati on that
6 you've had?
6 A Wel1, public
in a room, closed-door room. The
7 exchange started when we were discussing the issue of who
8 needed to be responsive to the records collection. The
9 jndjviduals listed primarily were in the European Bureau.
l0 And I noted several peopte who should have been listed who
l1 played key roles on staff at the embassy jn Kyiv. And then I
t2 ment'i oned rs Assi stant Secretary Ri sch, because
Consular Affai
l3 he had spoken to Rudy Giuliani several times"in January about
t4 trying to get a visa for the former corrupt prosecutor
15 general of Ukraine, Viktor Shokin. And my read of the
l6 request would 'include that.
t7 took issue with my raising the additional
l8 information, and the conversation rapidly, I would say,
l9 either escalated or degenerated jnto a tense exchange.
20 a So what was h'is response to your suggestions of
2t addi tional custodi ans?
22 MS. SPEIER: What did he say?
23 MR. KENT : I've got two questions here, so I don' t know
24 how you want to manage Representative Speier asked me a
25 quest i on and you.
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6 reveal confi denti a1 i nformati on. And I sai d, no, I 'm not.
7 There are only two career Foreign Service officers who
8 subject to this process. I'm one of them. I'm the only one
9 working at the Department of State, and the other one is
10 Ambassador Yovanovitch, who js teaching at Georgetown. So
l7 in the
l8 A We d'id not return to that toPic.
t9 O Now this was all with the others in the room?
20 A This is in the room with the 15 to 20 other people,
21 yes.
22 a And then you sai d there was an add'i ti onal
23 conversation in the hallway with Can you
5 it.
6 a And did you write up your version?
7 A I did.
8 a Did you provide that memo to the State Department
9 to be turned over?
l0 A I be1 i eve yes, I di d.
I State Department?
2 MR. KENT: The letters that came in, the letter that
J came to me on September 27th was sent concurrently with a
24 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
2 A Yes.
J a Who?
4 A Now f ormer, I guess, techni cally ret'i red, he sent
5 in his resignation letter, Plichael McKinley, senior adviser
6 to the Secretary of State. I had had no prior interaction
7 with Mr. McKinIey until the weekend after the letters were
8 jssued, and the story became news, and he reached out to talk
9 to me.
l0 a He reached out to you?
ll A Correct. I was out pi cki ng apples wlth my w'if e
t2 Stribling 0rchards, a very nice place in Markham, Virginia,
13 if you ever want to get good apples and he reached out to
t4 me through the Operations Center and said that he felt the
l5 State Department should stand up for its career Foreign
l6 Service officers and wanted to know if I had any objection to
t7 hjm trying to get the Department to issue a statement of that
l8 nature.
t9 a What did you say?
20 A I think said I think it is entirely approprjate for
2l the State Department leadership to stand up for its career
22 foreign service officers.
23 a And what d'id you say about the statement?
24 A He didn't share the statement wi th me. I asked h'im
I responses.
2 a What did he say?
J A He said he had not yet succeeded in securing an
6 A No.
7 a Djd he jndicate to you who he had discussed a
8 statement wi th?
9 A Not specifically.
l0 a Generally?
ll A d leadershi p of the Department. That's
He sai 50
l4 had engaged.
l5 a Did you have any further conversations about that
t6 statement wi th him?
5 happeni ng.
t2 A Which concerns?
l3 a About how the career Foreign Service officers were
I A Well
2 a 0r any Ukrai n'ians?
a
J A I think it's a matter of record that the former
4 mayor of New York and the current mayor of Kyiv have known
5 each other f or over a decade. l"layor Klychko i s a f ormer
6 heavywei ght of the wor1d. And so I bel i eve
boxi ng champ'ion
7 that Giuljan'i first met Ktychko, roughly, jn 2008.
8 a OkaY.
9 A So I think Giuliani, as a person, a private
l0 individual, has traveled to Ukra'ine over the course of the
ll last decade.
t2 a When you were in Ukraine, did you ever meet with
l3 him?
I meeti ng was?
l5 2018.
l8 trip?
t9 A The next time I heard Mr. Giuliani's name mentioned
r3 mentioned specifically Masha and me, and then said others but
14 di d not menti on the others.
l5 a Where was this meeting?
l6 A It would have either happened at the U.S. Institute
t7 of Peace or jn my office, which is right across the street.
t8 The State Department and USIP are across the street.
t9 a Did he explain in any more detail what he had
2l Giuliani?
22 A He was just passing along information. That was
23 not the purpose of the meeting. The meeting was to talk
24 about our assistance programs. He oversees the 1aw
I others.
2 O Who else?
a
J A Based on my normal procedures I would guess that I
4 shared it with in the European
people who followed Ukraine
5 Bureau, as well as with the leadership of or embassy in Kyiv.
6 a Do you know what mud Lutsenko and Giuliani were
7 di scussi ng i n connecti on to you?
8 A I did not know, oo.
9 a At that time you did not know?
l0 A I sti lt don't know.
ll O You haven't seen memoranda that
t2 A I've seen the letter that I signed in Apri1 2015.
l3 I don't know if that's a1t. I've seen a fake list that had
t4 my business card that I used temporarily in 2015, when I was
l5 at the embassy as acting DCM. The business card was the one
l6 I used in 2015, the letter itself was completely fake with
l7 lots of misspeltings. But I have never -- no one has ever
l8 shown me what Lutsenko might have been passing to Giuliani.
l9 So I did not know then and I sti1I do not know now.
20 a You mentioned the documents that the State IG had
2l provided to Congress. Have you reviewed those?
22 A They were not no one shared th j s wi th me, r1o.
23 5o I -- what I have been to1d, I first learned about it from
24 I reporter who emailed me, a person I'd never had
25 contact with, and to whom I did not respond, who claimed that
54
I she had seen the documents and asked me a quest"ion, and with
2 the many dozens of emails from media over the last several
3 weeks, since this story started, I didn't answer a single
4 one, I forwarded them all to our press offjcer.
5 a Was thjs recent?
6 A This was after -- it was probably a day or 2 after
7 the IG came up and passed documents.
8 a Did you speak to Ambassador Yovanovitch about the
l8 Yovanovi tch had also spoken th ["lr. Avakov around thi s time?
wi
l1 i n conversati on?
l4 forgery.
15 MR. KENT: Yes?
l6 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tel1 us what that letter was and
24 BY MR GOLDMAN:
2 LLth?
3 A We11, Mr. Giuliani was almost unmissable starting
4 i n m'id-lvlarch. As the news campai gn, or campai gn of slander
2t MR. KENT: The third story line that out the next
came
22 day was focused on the Bidens and Burjsma, that was the third
23 story 1ine. The fourth one that came out of day after was
24 going after some civil society organizations, inctuding
25 anticorruption action center that were descrjbed as Soros
61
t2 minute.
13 I Di scuss i on off the record . ]
l4 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
9 Yovanov'i tch?
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I [L1-:37 a.m.]
2 BY I.4R. CASTOR:
t4 A He was.
I Poroshenko.
2 a I mean, could reasonable people interpret that as a
J request not to investigate Sytnyk?
4 A I am sure that l'lr. Lutsenko has claimed that, but
5 he also claimed that there was a 1ist, and there was no 1ist,
6 and he made a 1ot of other claims. And so as I said, this'is
7 an i ssue of bef i evabi 1 ty about someone who routi nely 1 i es
1 .
t6 fake?
t7 A I don't if that list has been provided to the
know
l8 committee. You could show me the list and I might have some
t9 recollection. But I --
20 a Okay. Do you have any recollection of who was on
2t that 1i st?
22 A There were about L5 names, and I remember i t wa5
8 knew that was his name when the list alleged1y was created in
9 2016. That was a story line from 2019.
l0 There were a couple of young so-cal1ed Euro optimist MPs
ll where friends had joined Poroshenko's party but then become
t2 sort of critics of President Poroshenko. Thei r names include
8 out of the b1 ack book. I believe Andy Kramer from The New
9 York Times was the first person to write a story in English
l0 about i t. Andy came and talked to me sometime in late 2015,
ll 2015. I do not recall. He was based in Moscow, so he was
t2 not there in Kyiv that often.
l3 But at some point Andy shared with me where he had heard
t4 the fi rst information. And so I believe, although I cannot
l5 say for sure, that Mr. Kramer may have shared that he had
l6 talked to Leshchenko as one of his sources for that early
t7 article.
l8 a Were there other sources of information regarding
t9 Manafort pushing out of Ukraine?
20 A About -- wel1, Mr. Manafort operated jn Ukraine for
2t over a decade. So are you speci fi ca11y sayi ng about hi s
22 entj re time, or what's the specific
23 a that tjmeframe, which of course i s
Around you
I characteri zation.
2 a 0kay. Is it accurate that somebody in the Ukraine,
J not from the embassy, but somebody, maybe Ukrainians, were
l8 BY MR. CASTOR:
l3 BY MR. CASTOR:
22 A Correct.
23 a And what's your knowledge of Burisma's corruption
24 history and efforts to prosecute Buri sma?
2l Zlochevsky.
22 That was an i ssue of ourinterest because we had made a
23 company.
I A Yes.
10 busi ness?
t4 relevant languages?
l5 A I do not know.
l6 O Do you know if he moved to Ukraine?
t7 A I don't know.
l8 a Do you know how much he got paid?
t9 A I have not seen any documents. I've heard people
20 make suggesti ons
I with NABU. I will say that now that you mention it, there
2 apparently was an to help cosponsor, I
effort for Burisma
a
J guess, a contest that USAID was sponsoring related to clean
4 energy. And when I heard about it I asked USAID to stop that
5 sponsorshi p.
6 a why?
7 quiz.
8 A n, I went to I was then serv'ing i n Thai land
Agai
8 A Cor rect.
9 a And that's the subject obviously of the Vjce
l0 President. You know, he made some statements that have been
ll vi deotaped about how he playeda role 'in removi ng Shoki n, and
t2 as a result, you know, $L bi11ion 'in aid was freed up. Are
13 you familiar with that?
t4 A Yes.
t7 A Yes.
1 po1 i cy.
2 We to help with a
had been asked by President Poroshenko
J project in to reform the prosecutor Seneral's office. The
4 previ ous year we'd worked wj th Mi ni ster of Interi or Avakov,
5 whom I mentioned earlier to the taunch of what was known aS
l5 prosecutor.
l6 the IG un'it had no i dea that the f i rst
So the people i n
l7 corrupt prosecutor and there were a 1ot of them that
l8 they were targeting happened to have been the former driver
l9 and very c1ose, personal friend of the prosecutor general.
20 When they arrested hjm and the only reason they could
2t arrest him is because the deputy prosecutor general heard
22 about 'i t and ti pped them of f , except he ti pped of f the wrong
23 corrupt prosecutor in the province Shokin went to war. He
24 wanted to destroy anybody connected with that effort. They
25 tried to fjre and put pressure on the judges who would issue
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l6 A Ri ght.
t7 a And there were simi lar i ssues w'ith Lustenko that he
I Shoki n?
6 said Mr. Shokin was terrjble. I think the term you used
7 earl i er was he's a typi ca1 Ukrai ni an prosecutor
8 l'4R. KENT: Yeah.
l0 wanted him gone. You said his kids were him and
1l Poroshenko were godfather to each other's kids.
t2 MR. KENT: Yeah.
l3 MR. JORDAN: And then you get the new guy, Lutsenko, who
t4 you said is just as bad, also kids are you know, kids
l5 with 14r. Poroshenko and him are godfather to each other's
l6 chi 1dren. Lutsenko i s showi ng up drunk, maki ng statements.
t7 And, oh, by the way, h€'s not even a lawyer. And so I think
l8 the counselor's question was, where was the outrage with
t9 Mr. Lutsenko that was there for Mr. Shokin?
20 1'4R. KENT: Fi rst of all, the f i rst phase Yuriy
a
J successful country and a priority for the U.S. Government
4 programmi ng.
J was enough.
4 yes, is a country that has struggled
And so Ukraine,
5 with these issues, but I would say also in the last 5 years
6 has made great progress.
7 MR. MCCAUL: Andjust for the record, I signed wjth
8 Chairman Engel a letter to obligate the funding security
9 assi stance to Ukra'ine. But i s i t not appropri ate f or the
l0 President of the United States to bring up with a foreign
ll leader issues of corruption when the foreign leader brings up
t2 Javelin missiles? Is it not appropriate to discuss going
l3 after corruption in a country where we are provid'ing foreign
t4 ass'istance?
l5 l'4R. KENT: Issues of corruption have been part of the
t6 high-level dialogue between U.S. leaders and Ukrajnian
t7 leaders regardless of who is the U.S. leader and who the
l8 Ukrainian leader is. So that is a normal issue of the
t9 di pLomati c di scussi on at the hi ghest 1eve1 .
I prosecutor case.
2 MR. MEAD0WS: Yeah. And when was that?
J MR. KENT: That took place in late summer, early fal1 of
4 2015.
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24
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I [].: L0 p.m. l
2 THE CHAIRMAN: 0kay. Let's go back on the record.
) Mr. Secretary, I want to just ask you a few questjons to
4 follow up on my colleague's questions, and then I'm going to
5 turn it over to Mr. Mitchell to continue going through the
6 ti mel i ne wi th you .
8 meeting between Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Lutsenko, and there were
9 some Ukrainians that were apparently apparently came to
9 document collection.
l0 THE CHAIRI4AN: Part of the document collection that has
l0 BY MR. MITCHELL:
l1 O Good afternoon, si r.
t2 A Afternoon.
l3 a to pi ck up where ['lr . Goldman 1ef t of f
I 'm goi ng ,
5 A Correct.
6 a Was that the first time that you got wind of this
7 i ntervi ew that Mr. Lutsenko had had with, what you later
8 learned to be, Mr. Solomon?
9 A Yes.
l0 a OkaY. And the foltowing day, March 20, was the day
ll that Mr. Solomon publ i shed the arti cle i n whj ch there was
t2 video of part of the 'intervi ew that he had wi th Mr . Lutsenko.
l3 Is that correct?
t4 A That's my recollection of what happened on the 20th
l5 of March.
8 A Yes.
copi ed.
2 a And what was the time period for that email traffic
a
J in relation to the article that came about on or about
4 March 20?
5 A It would have been over the next perhaps L0 days,
6 basica11y the last L0 days of March.
7 a 0kay. And du li ng that ti me per i od, were there al so
8 additional articles that came out by 14r. 5olomon?
9 A The articles came out, if not dai1y, almost daily,
l0 and they oftentimes combined two of the four themes I laid
ll out before. To the best of my recollection, there was never
t2 a new line of attack, but many articles combined two of the
l3 previous four themes.
2t A No.
6 A Yes.
I January of 2019 and you floated the idea that she extend her
2 stay you thought of extending her stay through the fa11 of
a
J 20L9?
t9 A Correct.
20 a And that's because Ambassador Yovanovitch was a
23 Eu rope, yes .
2l a 0kay.
22 A Not that I reca11.
23 a And did you speak with Ambassador Yovanovitch about
24 Under Secretary Hale' s offer?
25 A Well, I was there on the trip, and so by tjme she
126
I told that she was willing to stay, because what she sa'id
him
2 was she wanted to have clarity because she had a 9L-year-o1d
J mother with her and needed to also plan for other issues, by
4 time Under Secretary Hale flew away she had jndicated her
5 witlingness to stay essentially an extra year through 2020 to
6 give the State Department and the administration time to fjnd
7 a nominee that could be nominated and confirmed and sent out
8 so that we would have an experienced Ambassador in an
8 A Yes.
9 a Was that the first that you heard that she'd been
l0 recalled?
ll A I believe that was the first time I heard that
t2 instructions had been sent for her to come back to the U.S.,
l3 yes.
t4 a Okay. So you learned for the first time that she
25
131
I [L :40 p.m. ]
2 BY MR. MITCHELL:
J a And what was your reactjon to ["1r. Giuliani's
4 statement?
5 A Mr. Giulianj, at that point, had been carry ing on a
6 A Yes.
I who came from 0desa, referencing Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.
24 A Correct.
25 a And when what day say exactly about l'4r. Parnas and
137
I I"lr. Fruman?
22 A Bakanov.
3 repeated what Avakov told me. He totd me, you can always
4 meet and have a cup of coffee with people, you don't have to
5 make any commjtments.
8 Mr. Gi ul i ani ?
l3 have happened.
t4 a Do you know if there was any effort, I mean, they
l5 would have kept you jn the loop if they were trying to make
l6 the case that, hey, you can't be believing this stuff. And
t7 i f you' re thi nki ng about removi ng Yovanovi tch, hold on, 1et
a
J a 0kay. So he had been granted visas in the past?
4 A He had had vi sas at some po'int i n the past,
5 correct.
6 a And do you know when?
7 A I do not know.
8 a 0kay . Do you reca1l j f i t was duri ng your ti me
t2 he had made an attempt to travel to the Uni ted States but had
l3 been deni ed?
23 an unreliable prosecutor?
24 A We11, I think how would you define unreliable
25 prosecutor?
145
l2 had open.
13 a But you didn't know whether there was any specific
t4 i nvesti gati ons i nto somebody 1 i ke Zlochevsky?
l5 A I do not know if there was an jnvestigation into
l6 Zlochevsky, the 'individual, Yuriy Lutsenko has said publicly
t7 that he investigated Burisma on nonpayment of taxes. And as
l8 I recalt, there was a settlement where Burisma paid a penalty
l9 for nonpayment of taxes, and at that point Zlochevsky
20 returned from his external home 'in Monaco and resumed a
2t public life in Ukraine.
22 a Going back to the passport issue. Did it present a
23 ri sk that terrori sts would get credenti a1s?
24 A That was a potential theoretical risk, and that is
25 exactly what I told in the first meeting that we had with the
148
I U.S. prosectors who were brought in, and FBI agents embedded
2 as mentors. Intensi ve trai ni ng tri ps to the U. S. , trai ni ng
J i n Ukrai ne. A mentori ng tri p to Romani a where Laura Kovesi
t4 spreadsheets.
l5 MR. JORDAN: Secretary, Mr. Kent, I just want to go back
l6 to questions Steve asked earlier. What was it going to take
t7 for the government to take the same position with Mr.
l8 Lutsenko that you took with Shokin, and I've just been making
t9 a list. He wasn't a lawyer. He actually talked about
20 showjng him the money, I thjnk you just said. We know that
2t he's been drunk on certain occasions. He was selling
22 passports, potentially to terrorist.
Z) MR. KENT: He was not selling passports. He undermined
24 of people selling passports.
an investigation
25 MR. JORDAN: 0kay. I guess we'11 live wi th that
154
8 investigation?
9 MR. KENT: I don't have the transcript in front of me.
t4 MR. KENT: But I will say that at the time I didn't have
l5 access to the transcript, so
l6 MR. PERRY: But you've had i t now.
t7 MR. KENT: After i t was declassi fi ed.
l8 MR. PERRY: You had it up untjl today. And I just want
t9 to 1et you know, it doesn't say an investigation. The
20 Presi dent doesn't say an i nvesti gati on. When he uses do
2l you see 'it as, or it was implied that the Presjdent is asking
22 for a favor for him, but when he says, do us a favor, do you
23 see that as the United States or the President of the United
24 States when he says do us a favor?
25 l'4R. KENT: Si r , I was not on the cal l .
156
I to occur?
2 A Yes. I was informed that it was finally scheduled
J by L'ieutenant Colonel Alex Vi ndman, who's the di rector at the
4 Nati onal Securi ty Counci 1 responsi b1e for Ukrai ne. And I
5 then emailed the Embassy suggesting that they send a
1 re1 uc tance .
.t) pause?
l6 A I d]d.
t7 a Who did you get the read-out from?
l8 A From Li eutenant Colonel Vi ndman.
t9 a And when was the read-out?
20 A It was not the same day. It may not have been the
2l day after, but it could have been either July 25th or 27tn,
22 several days after.
23 a What did he tell you to the best of your
24 recollecti on?
J had happened in the past, that was the old team. I'm a new
4 guy, I 've got a new team, and anythi ng we do w'i11 be
5 transparent and honest.
6 a And i s that as much as you can remember from
7 you r
l6 Vi ndman told me that the President repl i ed, yes, we do, and
25 AssembIy.
167
6 at di nner?
7 A Generally, this would have been a very short
8 conversation because her mother and my wife were part of it,
9 and we generally avoided talking about anything related to
l0 work when we were together.
ll a Did she have any followups for you? I mean, the
t2 President of the Un'ited States you know, you related to
l3 her that the President of the United States may have
t4 mentioned her on a call with President
l5 A As I think she may have said to you Friday, in part
l6 because of the what the Deputy Secretary of State told her,
t7 she aware of the Presi dent's vi ews of her.
l8 a So presumably this was real1y interesting
t9 information that you had and you related to her, and I'm just
20 wondering whether there was any addit'iona1 back and forth. I
2t mean, did she
22 A No, not that I reca11. Ambassador Yovanovitch is
23 an intensely private person, she's an introvert. And, again,
24 she's also someone who follows very strict what is deemed
25 proper and proprietary, and so that's -- we did not linger on
17 1
2 a 0kaY.
a
J t"1R. CAST0R: I think I'm out of time here.
4 MR. ZELDIN: How much time i s left?
5 t'4R. CAST0R: About L mi nute .
I prompt in L0 minutes.
2 lRecess.l
3 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 right. Let's go back on the record.
4 Secretary, I have a few questions for you. I thjnk a
5 couple of my colleagues do, and then we'11 go back to the
6 ti mel i ne wi th Mr . Goldman.
7 I just very brief1y wanted to go through a bit of the
8 call records since that was raised by my colleagues in the
9 minority. If you turn to page 2 of that call record at the
l0 bottom, this is again the July telephone call between
ll President Trump and President Zelenskyy. The very last
t2 sentence reads: We this 'is President
are ready to
13 Zelenskyy: We are ready to continue to cooperate for the
t4 next steps, specifically, we are almost ready to buy more
15 javelins from the United States for defense purposes.
t6 And there, Mr. Secretary, he's referring to Javelin
t7 anti -tank weapons?
1 it, I would like you to find out what happened wlth this
2 whole situat'ion with Ukraine, they said CrowdStrjke. Do you
a
J know what that refers to, CrowdStrike?
4 MR. KENT: i would not have known except for the
5 newspaper media coverage afterwards explaining what that was
6 a reference to.
7 the President goes on to say, I guess
THE CHAIRMAN: And
8 you have one of your wealthy people, the server they say
9 Ukraine has it. Do you know what server the President
l0 be1 i eves Ukrai ne had?
6 thank you for your service and for being here. Earlier you
7 mentjoned that media campaign against the Ambassador took
8 p1ace. Were you aware of who was involved with that media
9 campa i gn?
I were acti vely promoti ng thi s campai gn. And then obvi ously
2 the people in the United States that were promoting it.
3 Sure. Referencjng Mayor Giuliani, you
MR. QUIGLEY:
4 became aware of his activities in Ukraine. What was your
5 understanding while this was happening of what his role was?
6 A personal attorney working somehow for the government
7 working as a campaign person's attorney?
8 MR. KENT: His role in orchestrating the connections
9 with information from Yuriy Lutsenko to be a classic,
seemed
l0 you scratch my back, I scratch yours, issue. Yuriy Lutsenko
ll told, as I mentioned, Gizo Uglava, that he was bitter and
t2 angry at the embassy for our positions on anti-corruption.
l3 And so he was looking for revenge. And in exchange, it
t4 appeared that the campaign that was unleashed, based on his
l5 i ntervi ew, was dj rected towards Ameri cans, pri nci palty the
l6 Ambassador, as well as organjzatjons that he saw as his
t7 enemies in Ukraine, the National Anti Corruption Bureau as
l8 well as the Anti Corruption Center.
t9 Several Ukrainjans at the time told me that they saw
20 what Lutsenko was trying to do was get Presjdent Trump to
2t endorse President Poroshenko's reelection. This was
22 happening in March before the election. That did not occur.
)? It would not have made a difference ejther because Zelenskyy,
24 as noted before, won with 73 percent.
25 MR. QUIGLEY: To your knowledge, was Mr. Giulianj ever
180
25 covered so far?
182
2 category?
J MR. KENT: There are many companies in Ukraine that
4 might fa11 into that categorY, Yes.
23 Volker, and also the Charge Taylor about whether or not the
24 aid would be forthcoming, whether or not the statement would
25 be written. Were you privy to any of that?
185
t9 BY I,IR. GOLDMAN:
l5 poi nt, Mr. Gi u1 i ani had been on television and in the media
t6 advocati ng for the fou r story lines that you summarized from
l0 A Yes.
10
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I 13 24 p.m. l
2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
24 (ph) i s her name. And she i ntroduced h'im to the other people
25 in the office. So I shook his hand. There was no
196
I conversation, but that was the first time I had met him,
2 wi thout a substantive conversation, in January.
5 a You
ll A Yes.
t7 haven't touched upon it touch. You sai d you were not on the
t8 call Did you get a readout of that call AS well?
l9 A I did.
20 a And what d'id you learn that was d'iscussed on that
2t call?
22 A Again, I received that readout from Lieutenant
23 Colonel Vindman. It was a very short and nonsubstantive
z4 ca11, as you m'ight expect. As I recall April 2Lst was Easter
25 Sunday i n the Uni ted States. Agai n, Ukrai ni ans are 0rthodox.
200
l6 And that was more or less the extent that probabty was
t7 somethi ng more sa1d , but you know on an electi on day the
l8 point 'is what Alex summed up was, Li eutenant Colonel Vi ndman,
t9 those types of calls are designed to build rapport and he
20 thought it was successful doing so.
2l O Following the May 23rd 0val 0ffice meeting, where
22 there was a -- you testi f ied there was a dec'ision to try to
23 arrange a White House meeting. You know, what if any actions
24 did you take or were djd other Ukrajne-focused government
25 officials take to try to set that up?
201
I bad reputation.
2 a And how important is would a White House meeting
J be to President Zelenskyy?
4 A The President of the United States is a longtime
5 acknowledged leader of the free world, and the U.S. is
6 Ukrai ne's strongest supporter. And so i n the Ukrai ne
7 context, it's very important to show that they can establish
8 a strong relationship with the leader of the United States.
9 That's the Ukrai ni an argument and desi re to have a meeti ng.
l0 The f oreign policy argument is 'it's a very important
ll country in the front lines of Russian malign influence and
a Such as?
2 A I did not have the ful1 details of what exactly
J that was, but I th'ink i t was sendi ng si gnals about potenti a1
4 i nvesti gati ons.
t2 23rd?
l3 A Yes.
t4 a Volker produces one with Christina Anderson?
l5 A Chris Anderson.
t6 a Chris Anderson. And so then help me understand
t7 again. Like who produced the one from the NSC?
l8 A So Fiona had a conversation. To the best of my
l9 recollection, she had a conversation wi th , who is
20 normally the director for Eastern Europe and, while I was
2l away at my daughter's , was acting in my
22 stead as acti ng deputy assi stant secretary.
23 a 0h, okay. So he's a State Department employee.
24 A He's a State Department employee, yeah.
25 a Was she in the meeting?
208
I a Ambassador VoIker
2 A the briefers to the President were those that
J represented Iead offic'ials and that would be Secretary Perry,
4 Ambassador Sondland, Ambassador Volker and Senator Johnson.
5 a And they broughtstaff to the meetingT
6 A I do not know. I was again, I was on leave
7 status.
8 a OkaY.
20 phone ca11.
2t a Okay. And in any of those emajls or Phone calls
22 has he alerted you that he he's been cut out of the
)7 process?
I Department.
2 a Did he receive that warmlY?
J and would be a good leader for the people working there, the
l3 Presi dent?
t4 A When you said the person discussed in the meeting
l5 with the Presi dent, meani ng what?
l6 a We11, the meeting with the President, you related
t7 that President Trump seemed angry, that he was, you know,
l8 Ukraine was corrupt. That there are those in the Ukraine
t9 that wished him 111 in 2015 and they were going to work
20 towards an 0val 0ffice meet'ing, energy issues were important
2t and then you mentioned that there was a decisjon to put in a
22 new political Ambassador.
23 A So Charge Taylor, notwithstanding the fact he was
24 nominated and confirmed by the Senate, nomjnated under
25 president George Bush, was not a permanent nominee for the
215
1 position of Ambassador.
2 a 0kaY.
25 predecessor
217
2l time.
22 MR. ZELDIN: You as the dePutY chief of mission were not
23 involved in that process.
24 MR. KENT: Soin parts of 2015 I went out as essentiallY
25 the acti ng deputy chj ef of mi ssion. I then came back to the
221
I U. S. the day before Thanksgiving and was in the .S. for 3.5U
5 that says, let's wait until the VP goes over to make this
6 request?
7 t"lR. KENT: Yeah. We11, there was no waiting, as I
8 menti oned.
l6 think that's a public mark where people could see this is the
t7 American Ambassador speaking on the record about our concerns
l8 about the lackof progress and the rule of law reform in 2015
19 a year and a half after the Revolution of Dignity. At the
20 Same time, there WaS constant private messaging, meSSageS and
2l meetings that Ambassador Pyatt had in Kyiv, conversatjons or
22 meetings when Ass'istant Secretary Nuland would travel, and
J made that the Vice President was going to make thjs? Is that
4 your statement?
5 MR. KENT: No. I that well , agai n, we' re
would say
6 now talking about conversations, of which I was not a part,
7 that happened 4 years ago. I do not thjnk my guess, to
8 the best of my abitity, I would anticipate that the issue of
9 Shoki n's status was rai sed pri or to the Vi ce Presi dent's
l1 A Correct.
t2 a And the V'ice President's involvement with Ukraine
13 is pretty significant at that point in time and it remained
t4 unti t he, you know, through 2016. Correct?
l5 A Yes.
16 a And the question was, you know, were there any
t7 discussions of a perceived-conflict of interest on the part
l8 of either Hunter Biden or the Vice President?
t9 A When I was the first time I was in Ukraine as
20 acting deputy chief of mission in the period of mid-January
2l to mid-February 2015, subsequent to me going into the deputy
22 prosecutor general on February 3rd and demanding who took the
23 bribe and how much was it to shut the case against Zlochevsky
24 I became aware that Hunter B'iden was on the board. I di d not
25 know that at the time.
227
t7 7 days a week
l8 a 0kay. Gotcha.
l9 You referenced earlier the President's congratulatory
20 note to President Zelenskyy.
2l A His ca11.
22 O No, the note.
.L) A Yes.
24 a It was ripped up?
25 A That is what I heard from others, yes.
229
l8 BY ]"IR. CASTOR:
24 A Yes.
7 r emembe r ?
2t the version from Gordon Sondland that while the President was
2t BY MR. CASTOR:
a
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1 14:23 p.m.l
2 MR. KENT: I do not recal1, but I can't rule out. The
J U. 5. Congress does not, as a matter of course, copy embass'ies
9 a copy?
20 a 0f course.
2l A nor did we go to the prosecutor general to raise
22 the concerns of the three Senators who sent this letter.
L) a Okay. Do you know jf anyone in the 1eg affajrs
24 A At the time, I was working in Kyiv, so I would not
25 necessarily have been aware. My predecessor was Bridget
236
6 the
7 A I believe that Mayor Giuliani's association with
8 l4ayor Kernes and Pavlo Fuks contractually began i n 20L7 .
I were definitely part one, part two, but there were a number
2 of different platforms jn play that week.
3 THE CHAiRMAN: And part one, was that Lutsenko's claim
2t i ssue.
4 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
4 States and Ukrai ne. That i s somethi ng that I 've heard. And
5 you get a readout from Lieutenant Colonel Vindman that
6 doesn't have a 1ot of details, and you don't try to get any
20 earlier.
2t MR. KENT: Yeah.
22 MR. ZELDIN: That President Poroshenko had targeted
23 Ambassador Yovanovitch, which is why I wanted to ask you
24 about !his particular quote from President Zelenskyy. Did
25 you have an opportunity to meet with President Zelenskyy and
294
l6 t'lR. ZELDIN: And were there many other cases that you
23 Ukrainian over the last year, if they had to cite one case
24 that encapsulated the failures of President Poroshenko and
25 his team, which'included Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko,
289
9 a Uh-huh.
l0 A I do not engage the medi a and have stud'iously
ll avoided the media before coming here. I cannot say that's
t2 been Kurt's approach.
t3 a Okay. But you're not aware of him releasing his
t4 text messages 1i ke aff i rmatively on hi s own?
23 A I do not know.
24 a Okay.
l6 process, yes.
t7 a 0kay. So you're not in a position to evaluate
l8 whether the process undertaken here has been irregular or
t9 i mproper?
I been the same week and certainly was within the same month.
l0
ll
t2 a
20 I
2l And, again, I life in
spend most of my
22 support of others, and so it hurts me to say this, but
23 generally people remember who the principal on the trip was
24 and not all the staff who actually do most of the work.
25 a You talked earl i er about L'ieutenant Colonel
279
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5 to ?
6 A No.
I 15:37 p.m. l
2 BY MR. CASTOR:
I to some things just and ask you whether you have any
l3
t4
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t6
17
l8
t9
20
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Z)
24
25
275
I A What I said --
2 a Could you just go through that again?
3 A Ri ght.
4 a I haven't heard that name lately.
5 A That was a message that was described in the
6 shorthand of the desi re to have thi s was the Gordon
7 Sondland messaging of what the Ukrainians need to say in
8 shorthand 2015. And in shorthand, it was suggested that the
9 Ukrainians needed Zelenskyy needed to go to a microphone
l0 and basically there needed to be three words in the message,
ll and that was the shorthand.
l2 a Clinton was shorthand for 2016?
l3 A 20L6, yes.
t4 O Okay. Are you aware of the narrat'ive that there
l5 were some Ukrainians that tried to influence the outcome of
l6 the electi on?
2t BY MR. CASTOR:
ll 'investigat'ions.
t2 a And did Ambassador Sondland discuss a White House
l3 vi s'it i n the context of that statement?
t4 A I think the anticipation or the hope was that
l5 sending that signal would clear the way for both the
l6 White House visit as well as the resumption or the clearing
t7 of the admj nj strative hold on securi ty assi stance, whjch had
l8 been placed by OMB. Although, Charge Taylor asserted to me
l9 that both Tim t'lorrison and Gordon Sondland specifically said
20 that they d'id not believe that the two issues were linked.
2t a what was Ambassador Taylor's reaction to this whole
22 conversati on?
I Colonel Vindman or his boss, which was Fiona Hill and then
2 now has become Tim Morrison.
J a Right. And I thank you for that clarification. So
I jdeas. Some of them are great; some of them are not so good.
2 Andpart of the role of the special assistant as well as
3 people like me is to ensure that the ideas stay within the
4 bounds of U. S. po1 i cy
J A As I mentioned before, it
clear to me that
was
4 Ambassador Sondland had a direct connection with Chief of
t7 0ffi ce.
l8 a Can you elaborate with any more detail?
t9 A I was not in those conversations, 50
I A Yes.
4 A Yes.
25 the Department --
254
I Security Counci 1?
2 A She was scheduled to leave at the end of Ju1y. I
a
J don't recall which particular day of whjch particular week.
4 a Di d you have a meeti ng or a conversati on w'i th her
5 before she left?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 a And did you discuss any of these issues that we've
l9 country for the next week and a half. And I did cancel some
20 public appearances on Ukraine jn June, sort of think tank
2t sessions around Washington.
22 a And at that point, did you sense that you were cut
23 out of the loop jn terms of State Department policy
24 discussions and dealings with Ukraine given this Volker,
25 Sondland, Perry triumvi rate?
249
8 Giutiani?
A I asked him what his that's when
purpose was, and
l0 he said, as I relayed earlier, that because, clearly, former
ll l,layor Giuliani was an inf luence on the President's thinking
t2 of Ukra'ine that he, Kurt Volker, f e1t i t was worthwhi 1e
l3 engagi ng
t4 a Right. I know. But did you think it was
l5 worthwhi 1e engag'rng?
16 A What I understood was Kurt was thinking tactically
l7 and I was concerned strategically.
l8 O Did you have any discussions with anyone else at
19 the State Department by mid-Ju1y, any tjme up to mid-Ju1y or
20 prior to, about Mr. Giuliani's potent'ial inf luence on the
2t President and the fact that what he was advocating may be
22 cont rary to offi ci aI U. S. Pol i cY?
23 A I did not, in part because after Giuliani attacked
24 me, aS well as Ambassador Yovanovitch and the entire embassy,
25 in his late May interview, I was told to keep my head down
248
the rule of 1aw. And that was the nature of the exchange, at
2 some point in Ju1y, either at Toronto or perhaps, more
J Ii ke1y, mi d-J uty i n the State Department.
4 a Now, Ambassador Volker is a longtime, you know,
5 Forei gn Servi ce offi cer, ri ght?
6 A He is.
7 a What was his reaction when you said that this would
8 undermi ne the rule of 1aw and everything that we stand f or?
9 A I do not recall hjm giving a verbal response.
l0 a Okay. And so presumably you and Kurt Volker we re
ll i n Toronto for some time, right?
9 the U. S. Government.
20 cooperati on.
2t A Yeah.
13 know you've just sat through another hour and a half. Would
t4 you fike to take a 5-minute break
l5 MR. KENT: I'd appreciate that.
l6 MR. GOLDI'4AN: And then we'11 come right back. 0kay.
t7 Let's do that.
t8 lRecess.l
t9 MR. G0LDMAN: Back record. I t' s 6: 20, and i t' s
on the
20 the majority's round. Mr. Kent, thank for your patience and
2l di 1 i gence today, we are neari ng the end.
23 BY MR. 14ITCHELL:
24 a Si r, i n the last round, you mentj oned securi ty
25 assi stance. Can you j ust generally descri be what Ukrai ne
300
2t of Ukrai ne w'ith
agents usually af f i 1i ated i n the case
22 European Command, and we have an Offjce of Defense
23 Cooperation in the Embassy. And the direction in how we
24 spend that money is usually determined in a joint mifitary
25 commission between EUCOM and the Ukrainian general staff
301
20 a greater role upf ront and voi ce, but 'i n the end, i t'
pol i cy s
5 A Yes.
6 a Which ones did you attend?
7 A The first one where this issue came up was
8 July L8th. It was a sub-PCC, to the best of my recollection,
9 and the i ntended topi c was
l0
1l a Was there any discussion of the meeting at the
t2 sub-PCC leve1 on Juty L8th about any sort of freeze of the
l3 securi ty assi stance to Ukrai ne?
t4 A Yes.
l5 a Can you descr j be that di scuss'ion?
l6 A It was described as a hold, not a freeze. There
17 was a representative of the 0ffice of Management and Budget.
l8 I was at the State Department in a security video conference,
t9 I d'id not recognize the face. And I believe the individual
20 representing OMB at the time was not normally the person who
2t did. It was the summer vacation cycles. And he just stated
22 to the rest of the those participants, ejther in person or
)7 vi deo screens, that the head of the 0f f i ce of l'lanagement and
24 Budget who was the acti ng ch j ef of staf f , l'li ck Mulvaney, at
25 the directjon of the President had put a hold on all security
304
l3 A We d'id. that he
And the indiv'idual said
t4 apologized, that he normally dld not deal wjth these issues,
l5 but this was the message he was asked to convey and he
l6 conveyed i t.
t7 a And the individual being this gentleman from OMB?
l8 A The representative from the OMB in that particular
t9 meeti ng, yes.
20 a Was that the end of that d'iscussi on on thi s topi c?
2l A Yes.
22 a 0n that day?
23 A Yes.
2 A I did.
J a And who did you have those discussions with?
4 A Tyler Brace, our schedule C po1 i ti cal appoi ntee,
5 former staffer for Senator Portman, who understand budgetary
6 processes in great detajl.
7 a When did you have that conversation?
8 A I believe I had it subsequent to the sub-PCC, same
9 day.
l0 a just describe what you talked about?
And can you
ll A We djscussed what the signifjcance of that was
J A For?
4 a To release funds.
5 A That was my understandi ng. You' re talki ng about
7 a Correct.
8 A That was my understanding, Yes.
9 a Has your understanding since changed?
Z) A Yes.
I rescission at the end of the year, and indeed the next week,
l9 a Okay. And you said that that was sti11 being held
20 i n August?
2t A That hold, the OMB-directed hold, was lifted on
22 September LLth.
23 a at the July 26th deputies' meeting?
What happened
24 A I d'id not parti ci pate i n that meeti ng. Under
25 Secretary HaIe represented the State Department, and I cannot
312
5 A I did.
6 a And is jt in a similar form as the statement of
7 conc 1u s'i on s?
8 A of mY knowledge, Yes.
To the best
9 a And what do you recall from that readout?
l0 A The majn takeaway for me was that Senior Director
ll Morrison was trying to find out when Secretary of State
t2 Pompeo and the Secretary of Defense would both be in
24 wanted to get the hotd ljfted so that we could get the money
25 apportioned by OMB and then obligated. And so we were at
314
6 a When was the first time that you heard that the
7 securi ty assi stance mi ght somehow we be 1i nked to th'is Whi te
8 House vi si t or i nvesti gations conducted by Ukrai ne?
l0
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17
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1 15:44 p.m.l
2 BY MR. MITCHELL:
t2 by that?
l3 A I shared the I shared the sense that I had heard
t4 from Charge Taylor that Ambassador Sondland was engaged in
l5 the types of conversations that he was engaged in on Ukraine
l6 even though that was not part of his portfolio as our
t7 ambassador to the European Unjon.
l8 a And again, was this a conversation that you had
t9 with Deputy Assistant Secretary Murphy and Fisher in writing
20 or jn person?
2t A The'i r of f ices are between 5 and 10 f eet away f rom
22 my office and so I -- th'is was a direct conversation in their
23 offi ce.
24 a And what wastheir reaction?
25 A They were aware of the challenge of dealing with
318
I war with Russia when Russia began its war in 20L4. And
2 therefore, the training that we do, which is probably the
a
J most valuable in training Ukrainians to fight, as well as the
4 equipping that we do, have been crjtical to the success of
5 the Ukrainian armed forces in defending their country.
6 At the same time I would say that we probably derive
7 more benefit from the relationship than the Ukrainians do.
8 a How so?
ll intel agenc i es .
I Depa r tmen t
2 a And the Ukrajne trip was on or about September
a
J LLth?
4 A I arri ved i n Ukrai ne on September l.Lth, that's
5 cor rect .
2 A Yes.
6 15th.
7 a And where were youat that time?
8 A I was his house guest in the ambassador's residence
9 i n Kyi v.
10 a 0kay. Can you describe who else was at that
ll A That was just Ambassador Taylor and me. He went
l2 out for a run, and I went down to breakfast, and we met and
13 talked 7:30 in the morning more or less.
l4 a What did you talk about?
l5 A We talked about the meeting that ambassador --
l6 Charge Taylor and Special Representative Volker had had the
t7 night before with Andriy Yermak, the close personal aide of
18 President Zelenskyy.
t9 a And what were you told?
20 A Wel1, that meeti ng was the one meeti ng on Kurt's
2l schedule in Ukraine that he felt uncomfortable with me
22 joining. He sa'id that it was because of numbers. It was not
23 clear whether it would be just Yermak or whether he would
24 also bring a gentleman named Novokov (ph), whom I have not
25 met, and who is responsible for U.S. relations in the
329
3 that.
4 a Who sa'id don't do that?
5 A Charge Taylor.
6 a So Taylor was concerned about the way i n whi ch th'is
7 conversation took place?
8 A My understanding is that he was concerned. And
24 did not happen during the conference. Fareed Zakaria was one
25 of the hosts, but there was no special interview. So there
331
3 well?
4 A I wrote that to note to file when I' returned to the
5 U. S. , yes.
6 were receivjng?
7 A Well, I would suggest that what was said later on
8 that night, in the meeting I was not a part of, to Andriy
9 Yermak was the conflicting message. And as I recounted,
l0 there were two messages, there was what Ambassador Volker
ll said and what Charge Taylor said, and those themselves were
i n power.
l9 distinct, yes.
20 distinction 'is between
MR. MALINOWSKI: The
2t cond'i tionality to advance the national interest and
20 would 0rban and Putin have had to try to talk down Ukraine,
21 Zelenskyy, to President Trump?
22 MR. KENT: We11, Putin's motivation is very c1ear. He
denies the existence of Ukraine as a nat'ion and a country, as
24 he told President Bush in Bucharest in 2008. He invaded and
25 occupied 7 percent of Ukraine's territory and he's 1ed to the
339
22 bi ggest one.
23 I thi nk demonstrati that there's i ntegri ty i n the
ng
24 prosecutor general's offi ce i s absolutely cri ti cal ,
l6 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
l8 Ki s1 i n or Semeon (ph) Ki st i n?
2 A Rl ght.
a
J a AndI think you sajd that you may have djscussed
4 some aspects of it and that you don't recall what her
6 that cal1.
7 MR. KENT: Correct.
./.) Colonel Vjndman, was that the 25th, the 27ln? What day with
24 a that?
25 MR. KENT: It was a subsequent day. I do not I
349
I speci fi cal1y as possi b1y the hi ghest profi 1e case that you
6 2018, yes.
7 of these conversations with the
MR. ZELDIN: Were any
8 Ukraine Government about corruption cases that we felt
9 Ukrai ne shouldn't prosecute?
l0 MR. KENT:I'm not aware of us ever telling Ukraine not
ll to prosecute a corrupt individual or a person believed to
t2 have engaged i n corrupti on, no.
l3 MR. ZELDIN: Is it true that Ukrajne prosecuted cases
t4 that were classified as a corruption case but were
l5 i nappropri ately classi fi ed as such?