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Transporting electricity by rail Prototype railroading
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Regular poster 469 posts ku7u Regular poster 469 posts
ku7u
Now I have seen everything...
 
 
George, skeptical
lose, verb - to forego possession of something
loose, adjective - not tight
Reply 3
Al Carter tabooma county rwy Prolific poster 1,234 posts
Al Carter tabooma county rwy
Now I have seen everything...
 
 
George, skeptical
Hi, George,
 
That is actually a pretty neat idea, I think (without thoroughly thinking it through). Don't know if it made the news down your way, but up here in Sedro Woolley there is currently a big argument regarding a company that wants to build a battery storage facility on some farmland, near a major PSE substation, with the concept being the same as the Colorado venture. Of course, the locals don't want any part of that - "not in my backyard" type of argument. But wait until their power goes out and they start whining... (disclaimer - I'm somewhat biased as I'm retired from PSE).  
 
Be interesting to see if this concept of storage battery-on-railcar takes off!
 
Al Carter, Mount Vernon, WA
Reply 5
Ken Rice Super User 6,581 posts
Ken Rice
Well that’s a creative way to get around slow approvals and progress on new transmission lines.

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Reply 4
Andy Reichert Super User 1,840 posts
Andy Reichert
Actually, that's a pretty sensible idea, especially since the real infrastructure is decades away. What better technology than rail for transporting really heavy loads (that don't need to reloaded) in an A to B and back continuing cycle.
 
Andy
Reply 4
ku7u Regular poster 469 posts
ku7u
This really simplifies the POB dilemmas that have been discussed here recently.
 
George
lose, verb - to forego possession of something
loose, adjective - not tight
Reply 2
Ancientmariner Frequent poster 819 posts
Ancientmariner
It's not April 1, and they sounded serious, but . . . I'm not convinced. Sounds like something Doc Smith would have written in a science fiction serial circa 1925.
R/ Tony Anderson
 
Half of what I know is wrong. Bear with me while I figure out which half.
Reply 4
AlexW Prolific poster 3,701 posts
AlexW
Now I have seen everything...
 
 
George, skeptical
Although on the surface, it seems insane, it actually makes a lot of sense given the current permitting environment for building new transmission lines, and actually has some benefits that the transmission lines do not.
 
The power that they are getting from the solar farms is underutilized at the peak production hours, so it's very cheap for them to buy. They are then performing a double arbitrage of location and time by buying cheap power in Pueblo off-peak and then moving it to Denver and selling it during peak times. This is a very, very niche use of battery storage, but they know their market, and it's quite likely to work for this specific use case.
 
I've heard of the efficiency of the whole system being 92%, although I'm not sure if that includes the diesel fuel used to move the train full of batteries from Pueblo to Denver. Even accounting for the diesel fuel, due to performing time and location arbitrage, it's quite likely that this system avoids significant emissions from gas-fired peaker plants that are more than the raw MWh number would suggest.

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern
Reply 2
Goober Frequent poster since 2014 1,860 posts
Goober
In think this plan excels over the wind farms in the oceans that are killing the whales and produce virtually no power compared to this company.. Best idea I've seen on clean energy... BUT, still, the batteries require charging from the grid. No one wants to hear it.. Nuclear is the ticket for the future.........Our nuclear subs have been operating over 50 years.. no problems..
                   
 
😉 Luck = Labor under correct knowledge ☘
Reply 3
Jwmutter Regular poster 445 posts
Jwmutter
Sounds like an April Fools joke.

Jeff Mutter, Severna Park, MD

Http://ELScrantonDivision.railfan.net
Reply 4
AlexW Prolific poster 3,701 posts
AlexW
In think this plan excels over the wind farms in the oceans that are killing the whales and produce virtually no power compared to this company..
What? Offshore wind is a proven technology in Europe that we should use as well.
No one wants to hear it.. Nuclear is the ticket for the future.........Our nuclear subs have been operating over 50 years.. no problems..
But that's also true. We should be doing all of the above, especially as electricity demand goes up, both for stupid junk like AI and crypto, but also for the electrification of transportation and heating.

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern
Reply 6
Bernd MRH Author 6,256 posts
Bernd
That's neat. Using diesel power to move electricity. What will these highly educated genius's think of next. Apparently, they haven't heard of fusion power yet. They're building a fusion power plant in Virgina and it's on CNN. I think you're going to have to kiss those solar energy generators goodbye.
 
 
Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC
Reply 4
Duff Regular poster 309 posts
Duff
Batteries, when charging, convert electrical energy coming in to chemical energy, which is stored in the battery. When in use,   discharging, batteries convert the stored chemical energy into electrical energy, delivering it to the load, whatever the load may be. Engine-generators also convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, then to electrical energy, delivering that energy to a load. On a high level, charging the batteries at point A and delivering the stored energy to point B is not that much different from filling a tank car(s) at point A and delivering stored fuel to point B.
Duff Means
Glotsville - Duffsburg Rail Road
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Reply 4
ctxmf74 Super User 16,778 posts
ctxmf74
If they'd put a proper buss wire under the railroad they wouldn't need the special train to move the juice......DaveB

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Reply 6
Michael Tondee MRH Author 6,098 posts
Michael Tondee
It's not said whether they might use an all electric locomotive to move it.
That would be more environment friendly than burning diesel but I'm sure logistics and cost figure into it at some point.
Cool idea anyway.

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

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Reply 2
ku7u Regular poster 469 posts
ku7u
If it makes economic sense to move energy around like this then it seems like it would also make sense to hook one of those battery cars to an electric loco as a tender. There and elsewhere.
 
George
lose, verb - to forego possession of something
loose, adjective - not tight
Reply 3
Edmund gmpullman Prolific poster 1,921 posts
Edmund gmpullman
A while back I was reading about the New York Central electrification project in the Journal of the American Society of Civil Engineers March, 18, 1908.
 
The article goes in to detail about power sources, back up power sources (duplicate power plants and distribution lines) then goes on to mention Storage Batteries as further insurance to overcome any periods of interruption of current supply. Sort of a 'keep alive' system.
 
1908!
 
In the same light the NYC DES-3 'Tri-Power' locomotive (1928) that could use battery power while inside warehouses or while operating in areas where third-rail was not available. A 300 HP, 6 cylinder Ingersoll-Rand diesel could provide traction power or charge the batteries. Probably one of the first uses of 'hybrid' power.
 
We bought an EV back in October and I'm seriously considering a few solar panels which will charge a home battery system, just with enough capacity to keep the EV charged. Thus I don't have to connect anything to the 'grid' but I can benefit from charging using the solar panels.
 
 
Regards, Ed

Travel and Sleep In Pullman Safety and Comfort!
Reply 4
Ken Rice Super User 6,581 posts
Ken Rice
That's neat. Using diesel power to move electricity. What will these highly educated genius's think of next. Apparently, they haven't heard of fusion power yet. They're building a fusion power plant in Virgina and it's on CNN. I think you're going to have to kiss those solar energy generators goodbye.
 
 
Bernd
Fusion is not here yet, and won’t be for a while.  No-one has demonstrated overall net power gain.  There has been a demonstration or two where only counting the power needed to generate the pressures and temperatures to achieve fusion was slightly exceeded by the power the fusion produced, but those were not counting all the power necessary to run all the cooling, etc. needed to keep the stuff in one piece.
 
Note this particular sentence from the article you linked to - “It hopes to produce its first plasma – the superheated cloud of charged gas in which fusion reactions happen – in 2026 and achieve net fusion energy shortly afterward.”
They haven’t yet even gotten plasma, and they “hope” that “shortly” after that they’ll get net energy.
It’s not coming as soon as the hype would lead you to believe.
 
Mostly likely it is coming eventually, and it will be pretty nice when it does, but it would be foolish to count on it happening in a timeframe that would have any bearing on, say, shipping batteries by rail or building new nuclear power plants.

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Reply 5
Goober Frequent poster since 2014 1,860 posts
Goober
What time frame would you think is plausible? Ten to fifteen, or twenty- twenty five???
                   
 
😉 Luck = Labor under correct knowledge ☘
Reply 2
dperry Frequent poster 589 posts
dperry
They are still a decade or so away...
 
David
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's rather a shame that not everyone keeps it to themselves. That's my opinion.
Reply 3
AlexW Prolific poster 3,701 posts
AlexW
That's neat. Using diesel power to move electricity. What will these highly educated genius's think of next. Apparently, they haven't heard of fusion power yet. They're building a fusion power plant in Virgina and it's on CNN. I think you're going to have to kiss those solar energy generators goodbye.
That's a knee-jerk reaction without actually looking at the specific situation involved. It's weird on the surface, sure, but if you actually bother to look through the whole system, it makes sense for this particular niche application in this particular place.
It's not said whether they might use an all electric locomotive to move it.
That would be more environment friendly than burning diesel but I'm sure logistics and cost figure into it at some point.
It would actually be a good test bed to see how an electric locomotive would work on a short- to medium-haul freight route with battery tenders. It would probably cost a lot more though to equip some of the cars to function as battery tenders.
In the same light the NYC DES-3 'Tri-Power' locomotive (1928) that could use battery power while inside warehouses or while operating in areas where third-rail was not available. A 300 HP, 6 cylinder Ingersoll-Rand diesel could provide traction power or charge the batteries. Probably one of the first uses of 'hybrid' power.
A number of interurbans had similar locomotives to switch sidings that didn't have wire.

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern
Reply 3
barr_ceo Super User 3,682 posts
barr_ceo
Batteries, when charging, convert electrical energy coming in to chemical energy, which is stored in the battery. When in use,   discharging, batteries convert the stored chemical energy into electrical energy, delivering it to the load, whatever the load may be. Engine-generators also convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, then to electrical energy, delivering that energy to a load. On a high level, charging the batteries at point A and delivering the stored energy to point B is not that much different from filling a tank car(s) at point A and delivering stored fuel to point B.
 
We've seen what happens when an electric car battery shorts out… What happens if a boxcar sized battery shorts? That's going to need some major safety reviews. Imagine a derailment where the boxcar ends up in a river!

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Reply 3
J.Albert1949 Regular poster 368 posts
J.Albert1949
Wait 'til that train derails.
Think that Tesla batteries can produce a big fire?
Reply 3
jeffshultz MRH Staff 8,966 posts
jeffshultz
Depends on what the batteries are made of. You could get boiled fish from lithium or a really rough ceviche, if they are lead acid.

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Jeff Shultz - MRH Technical Assistant
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Superintendent, 2nd Division PNR, NMRA
Northwest Oregon/Southwest Washington
Reply 4
MikeHughes Super User 6,772 posts
MikeHughes
Interesting that they aren’t waiting for ITER. (https://www.iter.org)
… Apparently, they haven't heard of fusion power yet. They're building a fusion power plant in Virgina and it's on CNN. I think you're going to have to kiss those solar energy generators goodbye.
 
Once fusion works in a commercially viable way, solar and wind will become completely irrelevant as they reach end of useful life and fall into disrepair.

The battery unit train concept might prove quite innovative. If they can run the power into the rails and up to the batteries in permanent cars (just) in “charging yards” it could be very efficient - eliminating plugging each battery in.  Imagine regional terrawatt nuclear reactors (fission or fusion)  charging thousands of battery rail cars daily until (instead of) transmission lines get built.  Two or three of the cars out of a hundred powering the locos!  

Would be quite the proof of concept model railroad!
[MRH%20Sig%202]Mike’s Index and Blog
Reply 2
dark2star Prolific poster 2,072 posts
dark2star
It's kind of "funny" how much damage is done in the name of "eco-friendliness"... In my neck of the woods they're building "solar farms" - basically covering good fields with solar cells. Similarly with "wind parks" - erecting unnatural towers in the name of "protecting nature"... At least we get sheep to "mow" the grass in the "solar farm", so it's a win for bio-diversity.
 
Just a few years ago the total summed output of a solar cell was less than the energy needed to produce the solar cell in the first place, so I would have considered these things "single-use batteries"... I'm told it's changed nowadays.
 
What really vexes me - we've been saving so much power by using LED lights and A+++ class fridges. Still we need more electricity overall than when we were still using inefficient 100W glow-bulbs?
 
There's a company where I live - they store excess heat generated by some industry in containers and move the containers to heat the local public bath. I think that's a comparable approach to running "battery trains" for delivering energy. A good idea in principle but only for certain scenarios.
 
Yes, I think there's value in "battery trains" but it's more about protecting from power outages I think - after all there is a loss when storing energy in a battery. Nice idea.
 
Have fun.
Reply 4

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