Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yulia Savicheva

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was a clear keep Yulia Savicheva. Regarding the albums and songs that were also nominated, there has been considerably less discussion on them (and I suspect many of the participants here missed them). There is no easy manner to make a partial close, and I will not relist a discussion that ended with a clear consensus to keep on the main article. So I will declare the others in the list inconclusive, meaning that they may be relisted at editorial discretion. (Generally it is a good practice to not nominate multiple articles on the same AFD unless you are almost sure that they will end with the same outcome.) Be advised that the coverage of Eurovision songs is pretty much complete in that all of them have separate articles, and that AFD discussions on them have not ended with deletion, the argument for inclusion being that even if they did not win the international contest, they have national prominence in that they won the right to participate in the final. The situation is probably less clear on the non-Eurovision albums. Sjakkalle (Check!) 21:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: I noticed just now that the three other articles were not tagged with the AFD template. If you make a multiple AFD nomination, it is important that all articles are tagged as such, otherwise people reading or watchlisting that article may be left unaware that there is an active deletion discussion on it. Sjakkalle (Check!) 21:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yulia Savicheva

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Mass nominating this singer (and the roost of articles which is related to her) which is solely notable for her performance in the Eurovision contest, but she was just classified to the 11th position, she wasn't the winner. I can't find any coverage other than the fact that she represented Russia in Eurovision Contest, the articles in other languages are rough translation of the same content which seems to be written by a fan. Notability can't be stablished from a single act and it has been tagged with notability since 2008. Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 02:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the main article per WP:OUTCOMES and WP:MUSICBIO, specifically criteria 9:"Has won or placed in a major music competition." Participants in the Eurovision song contest are generally considered to be notable. She has also attracted coverage in major Russian newspapers, for example Vedomosti, here. The other articles should be merged into the main article for now, until independent notability can be demonstrated. Valenciano (talk) 05:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep per Valenciano, basically. Eurovision is divided into (usually) some form of national competition, followed by semi-finals and then a final. Being in the final suggests she won at least her home country's competition (or was simply appointed, as is the case for some countries, but that still generates coverage) then did well during the semis. To then place 11th in the final probably gets her over the line, in my view. Both the semis and finals are televised (outside of Europe, but obviously also within Europe) and many of the national competitions are televised too. The only question beyond that is whether her being a Eurovision contestant is a matter of WP:BLP1E and whether that trumps WP:MUSICBIO and the like. Given it doesn't trump other single-event, occupation-specific, criteria (like, say, WP:NOLYMPICS) suggests it shouldn't here. So on balance I find myself in the keep camp. But probably only just, based on WP:OUTCOMES. However, by all means merge the other ones into the "main" article. Stalwart111 06:17, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the main article, obviously notable as a Eurovision participant. No opinion on the others.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - A user pointed out the specific criteria in musicbio, however musicbio states that if the subject meets the requirement it "may be notable", it does not guarantee notability, Has won or placed in a major competition does not instantly assert notability, there are several contestants from X-Factor, American Idol which have placed, but doesn't have their own article. She was placed 11th position in this single edition it does consist in one event, she wasn't qualified for her performance in the semi-finals, she appeared in the show due to the automatic qualification from the previous edition, the Vedomosti link provides only mentions regarding her apparition in Eurovision and the most recent dating 2007 are about new contestants. Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 16:00, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is the list of media writing about her (maintained at her website).--Ymblanter (talk) 16:21, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those links provided by Ymblanter do check out, and there do appear to be enough Russian language sources on her to meet the general notability guideline of which musicbio is merely a subcategory. Valenciano (talk) 20:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The Eurovision projects have created numerous articles like this one. Participating in Eurovision does not confer instant notability, and detailing every song and singer that ever participated in Eurovision in a separate article is unnecessary.—Kww(talk) 16:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually sympathetic to the idea that Eurovision participants from a particular year could simply have a catchall article covering them all, but that's at odds with what we currently have. Generally a Eurovision participant will attract enough coverage to meet WP:GNG and will therefore have an article. I do believe that in this case she has achieved enough coverage in Russian language media over a period of several years to meet WP:GNG. Also in this case, no less than 19 other wikipedias have chosen to have a separate article on her. It would be in my experience, totally unprecedented for us *not* to have an article on a subject so widely covered on other languages, I guess that's why I mentioned WP:OUTCOMES. Valenciano (talk) 20:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - 19 Wikipedias have chosen to have a separate article on her, but they are either stubs or tagged with problems concerning its notability or with merging discussions and also one should not mention existence in WP:OTHERLANGS, Natalia Podolskaya fails even more, as she is only known for representing Russia in a single edition. I think that Eurovision has spawned a lot of these instant celebrities articles within wikipedia, but only the most relevant should be covered, the rest should be covered into a single article with past editions and its participants.
Keep per WP:ATD & WP:NNC - Article just isn't citing notability sufficiantly. Needs more work to cite this person's notability. Eurovision was a very early exposure in her career, as far as I can tell. She seems to be a highly successful commercial musician in the Russian language recording industry. Her albums are available through online marketers such as Amazon:Julia Savicheva and Itunes, Yahoo! Music shows three albums, an MTV video and 25 Youtubes (http://music.yahoo.com/julia-savicheva/) I found through a cursory perusal of the web. She is only several years into her career, but has definite international exposure which has long exceeded this sole Eurovision citation. 72.129.81.5 (talk) 09:42, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Anonymous voter, I disagree with the NNC reason for a keep argument, also availability in digital outlets doesn't represent a criteria for maintenance within WP, neither youtube, the link you provided lacks in-depth coverage (no information on her, and no information regarding her albums), the same applies to other links (even the one that mention her performance on Eurovision). Even though we have limited material about her, it would be not a reason for deletion, but so far the only thing I see on the net about her is her performance on Eurovision which constitutes 1EVENT. Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 01:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Response - Agreed, based on what you're saying, Eduemoni. Digital albums are not physical CD albums. However, Amazon and other sources list actual physical CD albums for sale, the latest of which was issued last year (2012). She is apparently on tour and on television in Eastern Europe, judging by the many Youtube videos of her television appearences and concert performances, all of which are much more recent than the Eurovision citation. I totally agree with you based on what you're saying which is very reasonable. However, you are not taking all factors into account which is why I cite WP:NNC which states if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability. Additionally WP:INDEPTH does not apply here. It applies to events, not people (if you were citing WP:1E instead, it closely supports the position that you're promoting). In any case she definitely isn't well known in the USA, if at all. This is what NNC refers to. She is a celebrity in Eastern Europe, and is a well enough known musician who tours, appears on television and records (physical CD albums - not just digital). Her "best of" album from 2008 is a physical CD album, and produced by Astra Records located in the state of Texas in the USA. I don't know but if you're not taking this into account when you continue to refer only to Eurovision. If so, I gladly defer to your position to delete. I am not a fan of hers, and I had never heard of her till yesterday. I have no inclination keep or delete the page. I only see evidence that this is a notable celebrity, albeit an Eastern European one. Please change my mind. 72.129.81.5 (talk) 11:47, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I know that INDEPTH is suited to events, but I mentioned that because all these sources even russian sources lack depth of coverage (which is needed per GNG), her only notable act is her performance at Eurovision, this why I'm talking about it so much, her albums only charted in Russian charts which has dubious methods of tracking songs and albums, anyway, this specific criteria is being discussed and can't be decided in the article's favor or contrary to it. All the coverage on Yulia seems to be reprint, mentioning briefly about her (press) new release and talking about her appearance on Eurovision. Her coverage (even in Russian outlets) consists of trivial coverage, with simply tour reports, performance dates, album release or tracklisting. The artist also didn't have any record certified gold. She has released five albums, all of which were released by minor record companies, the most expressive being Origami which was done in a joint-venture between her record label along with Symbolic Music and Astra Records, she didn't introduce any music genre or style, or defined it. She hasn't received any awards (Eurovision is a contest). She arguably placed in a contest and performed music for a work of media that is notable which is the current article's excuse (IMO), but in fact is pointed out to 1EVENT. Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 00:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - strange nomination, seem to have had alot of career in music besides Eurovision. article needs structure and better sourcing though. I see no reason for deletion. representing your country in Eurovision as a singer should equal representing your country in the Olympic games as an athlete.--BabbaQ (talk) 12:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- also keep Believe Me (Yulia Savicheva song) article. No stance of the rest nominated.--BabbaQ (talk) 12:58, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't get the reason why you mention this is a strange nomination, having an active career has nothing to do with notability, have you seen my comments above? Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 19:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes I have. You are truly fishing for reasons to get this article deleted. Sorry im not buying into it.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.