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Template:Did you know nominations/György Dungyersky

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  Ohc ¡digame! 03:21, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

György Dungyersky‎, Ivan Balás‎, Aleksandar Popović (1920s tennis player)‎, Franjo Šefer, Krešimir Friedrich, Ivan Radović‎, Franjo Kukuljević, Franjo Punčec, Josip Palada, Dragutin Mitić

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Created by Lajbi (talk). Self nominated at 23:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC).

  • I only see one QPQ review listed. Per Supplementary guidelines H4 Where a hook has more than one new or expanded article in it, an article-for-article quid pro quo (QPQ) is required: one article reviewed for each bolded article in the hook. — Maile (talk) 14:09, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry I missed that. Though when I nominated it there wasn't even ten open article nominations (Xmas season). So it will take some time, until then feel free to comment/ask about the content itself as I guess this nomination won't pass within one fast review. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 14:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • QPQ done. Some of those nominations are pending but I reviewed ten of them. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 12:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Full review needed of hook and all ten articles. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:29, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Hook: The hook is 273 characters long. I'm not sure whether the 200-character limit can be exceeded when a single hook contains multiple new articles. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
    • György Dungyersky‎: The article was nominated within five days of its creation, and was sufficiently long when created. All the information is sourced to three references, which is acceptable. I have added a few {{clarify}} tags which should be resolved. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
      • We should have review for all the articles in the hook. I tried to respond all that needs to be clarified in that one particular article you reviewed. Hope it is satisfactory. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 18:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
        • Yeah, but unfortunately I don't have time to review the other articles. You'll have to wait for other editors to assist. However, "György Dungyersky" looks fine now as you have addressed the points I raised. — SMUconlaw (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Reviews needed for remaining nine nominated articles. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Listing all 10 articles to review (please check off as approved):
(Note: All 10 QPQs have been done by nominator)
  1. György Dungyersky‎ – The article was nominated within five days of its creation, and was sufficiently long when created. All the information is sourced to three references, which is acceptable. I have added a few {{clarify}} tags which should be resolved. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC) "György Dungyersky" looks fine now as you have addressed the points I raised. — SMUconlaw (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
    Hook ref is not in article. Yoninah (talk) 15:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
    Please explain. All played for Davis Cup, which is claimed by the Soskic book as well as the Davis Cup website itself. Kingdom of Yugoslavia existed and was dissolved in WWII, I don't think I need to source that historical fact individually. I don't know what is the exact problem. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 21:02, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
    Per DYK Rule #3, "the fact(s) mentioned in the hook must be cited in the article". The articles do mention them playing for the Yugoslavia Davis Cup team, but most of the articles just say "Davis Cup" with an embedded link to the Yugoslavian team, and none of them use the term "short-lived", which according to DYK rules must also be included in each nominated article. You could use the same source in each article, calling it "the short-lived Yugoslavia Davis Cup team", or change the hook. Yoninah (talk) 21:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
    Either you misinterpret the rule or just relying on it too heavily but I picked randomly and checked the second most DYK article record holder nomination Apollo 11 lunar sample display and not all of the nominated articles contain the hook fact about the missing stones (e.g. California lunar sample displays doesn't) and none of them use the same source (e.g. one uses a book, other a website and so on) but rather been put together one-by-one. And I only checked the first HoF nomination I came across. Sticking to your point too hard would eliminate all of the current hall of famers I assume. I guess it's safe enough to call a 12-year span short considering that the Davis Cup ran from 1900 to this day, which is a 114-year history although I tend to remove it if there's a consensus on it. I'll address later the other issues you wrote below. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 00:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
    Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I was the reviewer who approved all the Apollo 11 lunar sample display hooks, and I made sure that the hook fact appeared in all 30 articles, with a source. (In the case of the California lunar sample displays, some of the displays were destroyed by fire, which could be considered "missing".) Of course the source needn't be the same one, but in your case, saying that the Davis Cup team existed from 1928 to 1940 (or whatever the dates are) would obviously be cited to the same source. It would be far easier for you to add to each of these 10 articles a clause after you mention the Davis Cup team, "which was in existence from 1928 to 1940," and add a source, than to try to fight the system. Yoninah (talk) 09:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
    Please don't take it personal and AGF. I wasn't aware you reviewed that DYK nomination it isn't on the HoF page. As I said I picked the first one I saw. I don't want to strip said nomination of its HoF status or "fight the system" but you see that I made a good point. California lunar sample displays should have a paragraph by your standard similar to that of Illinois lunar sample displays where no stones were missing but mentions the other cases - but it doesn't ("While other "goodwill moon rocks" commemorative displays were reported lost or missing by many recipient states [...]")
    some of the displays were destroyed by fire, which could be considered "missing" so we have missing in quotation marks because it isn't said word-by-word and "could be considered" is as a flexible way of approach to say the least. The same approach I asked you to do in my case as well. That's all I'm getting at. I'll will add that paragraph you asked for but the most I can do is to present a short historical briefing on the dissolution of the kingdom. And as it is stated in György Dungyersky's article he is the first Davis Cupper so it counts from 1927 and it's sourced by the Soskic book. Again flexibility and AGF. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 10:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
    The reason I undertook this review was because I was intrigued by the words "short-lived". When I didn't see anything about "short-lived" in the articles, I brought up this DYK rule. I don't understand your problem with adding one or two cites to back up a few words like "which was in existence from 1928 to 1940." You could even cobble together a few sources which mention the dissolution of the kingdom and put them at the end of that clause, without going into a historical briefing. Or you could take the words "short-lived" out of the hook. There's not much else I can suggest. Yoninah (talk) 13:44, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
    With a quick and simple Google search I found a book Tesla, Master of Lightning, which claims "[...] Following Austria-Hungary's defeat in World War I, Croatia and other Balkan states agreed to join with Serbia to create a new state called the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, which was changed to Kingdom of Yugoslavia..." and "[...] But peace was short-lived. On April 6, 1941 Hitler attacked Yugoslavia and basically destroyed it." It's that trivial. Anyway as I see it's much easier to just give you that new hook. Please tell me if you found it necessary to add any further evidence to each article about the Kingdom itself. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 17:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    That's a great source! Now, does Soskic tell you when the Davis Cup team was formed? Then we're in business. You could put a short clause in each article, like "he played for the Kingdom of Yugoslavia Davis Cup team (or however you're connecting the subject to the Davis Cup team), which was in existence from 19??<ref>Soskic</ref> until the dissolution of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1941"<ref>Tesla</ref>. Of course, if you have a source that specifically gives the dates of existence of the Yugoslavia Davis Cup team, that would also be fine. Yoninah (talk) 19:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    I just saw your ALT1 hook suggestion below. It certainly solves the hook problem. I added the hook ref and inline cite to the György Dungyersky‎ article; please double-check that I cited the right source. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. György Dungyersky‎ good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  2. Ivan Balás – Article is new enough, long enough, adequately referenced. All sources are foreign-language, so unable to check for close paraphrasing. QPQ done. However, the hook, and especially the part about the "short-lived" Kingdom of Yugoslavia Davis Cup team, is not cited in this or any of the other articles, as per DYK rules. Yoninah (talk) 22:24, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
    I just saw your ALT1 hook suggestion below. It certainly solves the hook problem. I added the hook ref and inline cite to the Ivan Balás article; please double-check that I cited the right source. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. Ivan Balás good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  3. Aleksandar Popović – Article is new enough and long enough. However, it is based on only one source, and is written in a very chatty style, using non-neutral accolades to make up for lack of content. I did a copyedit to remove the non-neutral language, and added a few "citation needed" tags. Can you find a few more sources about him? Again, the hook ref is not found in the article. Yoninah (talk) 22:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
    Page creator has taken care of citation tags. Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
    I just saw your ALT1 hook suggestion below. It certainly solves the hook problem. I added the hook ref to the Aleksandar Popović. I would appreciate your adding the correct cite in the indicated place. Then this is ready to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    Narrowed source to the one page where it appears. Also rephrased the sentenced to make it more clear. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 15:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Thank you. Foreign-language hook ref AGF and cited inline. Aleksandar Popović good to go. Yoninah (talk) 16:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
  4. Franjo Šefer – Article is new enough and long enough. It's based heavily on 2 of the 3 sources, and I wonder if there are other sources you could use? I added two clarification tags to the page. Again, the hook ref is not found in the article. Yoninah (talk) 22:59, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
    Page creator has taken care of refs and clarification tags. Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
    I just saw your ALT1 hook suggestion below. It certainly solves the hook problem. I added the inline cite to the Franjo Šefer‎ article; please double-check that I cited the right source. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. Franjo Šefer‎ good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  5. Krešimir Friedrich – Article is new enough, long enough, well-referenced. Foreign-language refs AGF. I've added a "citation needed" tag to the paragraph under Football Career. Also, it's not clear which brother he's partnering with in the first paragraph under Tennis Career. Again, the hook ref is not found in the article. Yoninah (talk) 23:18, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
    Page creator has added cites and clarified the brothers' names. Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
    I just saw your ALT1 hook suggestion below. It certainly solves the hook problem. I added the hook ref and inline cite to the Krešimir Friedrich article; please double-check that I cited the right source. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. Krešimir Friedrich‎ good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  6. Ivan Radović – Article is new enough, long enough, adequately referenced. Foreign-language refs AGF. I added a few tags asking for clarification of dates and sources. The first sentence under Painting Style is too long and hard to understand, and I wonder if "Venetian renaissance" means Italian Renaissance? Again, the hook ref is not found in the article. Yoninah (talk) 23:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
    Page creator has clarified dates and sources. Perhaps you could quote the first sentence under Painting Style directly from the source, and put it in quote marks? Otherwise it's hard to understand what it's saying. Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
    I did the minor rephrase to avoid having a full section of quotes. But here you go. I guess it's not that more comprehensive but art in general rarely is. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 17:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    I just saw your ALT1 hook suggestion below. It certainly solves the hook problem. I added the hook ref and inline cite to the Ivan Radović article; please double-check that I cited the right source. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. Ivan Radović‎ good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  7. Franjo Kukuljević – The article is sufficiently long (confirmed to be a fivefold expansion) and is adequately referenced. There is just one {{clarify}} tag that needs to be attended to. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    Please report if you need any more clean-up. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 17:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    OK, the article looks fine now. — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    Confirming foreign-language hook ref AGF; hook ref cited inline. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    Sorry, actually there is one more minor point. I modified the final section so that it mentions Kukuljević's death in Johannesburg, but that needs a reference. I presume that fact (which was stated in the infobox) is in one of the sources you have already mentioned in the article, so it should be easy to add a reference. — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Source added. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 15:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    OK, thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Geni.com is not a reliable source, so I removed it. However, I don't understand why it needs a cite. From the point of view of DYK, the paragraph already has at least one reference. Reconfirming that Franjo Kukuljević is good to go. Yoninah (talk) 16:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    I'll leave it to the DYK volunteer who will make the decision whether to promote the hook or not, but at the moment I don't see any reference for the birth and death dates of the article's subject. The two existing references relate to the fact that Kukuljević emigrated to South Africa and married a woman called Ljuba. They say nothing about his birth and death dates. Why shouldn't such information require referencing? Anyway, can't the information be referenced to the main source relied on – Šoškić? — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Oh, sorry, I didn't know you were referring to the lead or infobox. Yes, the birth and death dates should be sourced, but if the sourcing is not reliable, perhaps they should be left out? Yoninah (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    I added a sentence about Kukuljević's death at the end of the article, so I was referring to the need for that to be referenced. Of course the information in the infobox ought to be referenced somewhere in the article as well, or if the information doesn't appear in the article then there should be footnotes in the infobox itself. However, I don't think this is an issue that should hold up the DYK. There's no need to delete the information now, but reliable references should be inserted at some stage. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Birth date could be easily verified with the help of the Die-maus-bremen.de website (already in the article), which is run by Chamber of Commerce and the State Archive of Bremen. Although it only claims his age at a certain date but generally that's enough. The birth date was part of the original article I've expanded but seems to be verified by that source. As for the death date I'm working on it, but if it proves to be fruitless I don't mind omitting it. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 17:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    I added a reliable reference for the birth date and death date. Yoninah (talk) 19:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Nice find! I've already used the Croatian Encyclopedia on the Mitic article and totally forgot to look for it there. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 11:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
  8. Franjo Punčec‎ – 5x expansion verified. Article is new enough, long enough, well referenced. I noted 2 places where cites are needed, one being the hook ref. Yoninah (talk) 00:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Fixed that. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 15:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Thank you. Hook ref verified and cited inline. Franjo Punčec‎ good to go. Yoninah (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
  9. Josip Palada – 5x expansion verified. Article is new enough, long enough, adequately referenced. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. Hook ref cited inline. Josip Palada good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  10. Dragutin Mitić – 5x expansion verified. New enough, long enough, adequately referenced. Foreign-language hook ref AGF and cited inline. However, I am concerned that the first 2 paragraphs under Tennis Career and the paragraph under Playing Style closely follow, if not copy, the Soskic source. On Google Translate, the article seems to be following the flow of the Serbian text line by line. Could you please do some copyediting, with your own words, on the Tennis Career paragraphs? And feel free to translate Predrag Briksi's observations directly, using a blockquote. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
    Thank you and copyedited. Tell me if it's ready. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 15:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Could you confirm that the quote under Playing Style is indeed a direct translation of the Serbian text? Yoninah (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    Now it is as direct as it could be without turning it to a calque. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 18:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
    A what? It's okay to quote text directly, even if it's not a quote. When I viewed it on Google Translate, it seemed like the text was talking about the tennis expert's ideas, not quoting him. Please clarify what you're doing here. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 21:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
    I really got lost here. I added the blockquote you told me on my talk page. If it's still not the one you asked for and since you've already translated the text with Google and probably know, which format would be appropriate, I say feel free to revert the section to whichever previous state that fits your take on the problem. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 23:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
    Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I see from Google Translate that they are not quoting the tennis expert directly, so I restored your original, direct translation of the source, putting it in quotes. Copyediting problems resolved. Foreign-language hook ref AGF and cited inline. Dragutin Mitić good to go. Yoninah (talk) 09:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
    Thank you. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 09:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Current status —please change this to a tick once all ten articles above have been marked as approved. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I just noticed this ALT hook suggestion from Lajbi, added on 5 February. Let's go with it and eliminate all problems. I'm re-reviewing the 5 articles I did, above, with the ALT hook in mind. Yoninah (talk) 22:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Current status ALT1 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 09:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
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