Talk:Statues of the National Statuary Hall Collection
Latest comment: 6 months ago by Another Believer in topic New stub: Statue of Daisy Bates
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FL?
edit@HAL333: Thanks for your recent work on this list. I'm curious, do you have Featured list status as a goal? I'm working to move articles to comply with WP:VAMOS, slowly but surely, so expect some more wiki link updates. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:20, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, FL is the goal. After I finish adding all of the sources, I'll rehaul the "Sculptures intended for the collection" table and polish and triple the size of the lede. I appreciate the link updates: one of my current FL nominations is struggling so it will probably be a while until I can nominate this one. There's no rush. ~ HAL333 17:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- HAL333, Oh, great news, I'd love to see this list promoted. Happy to follow along. @Deisenbe and Carptrash: Putting this on your radar as well, as other editors with 10+ contributions to this page. Thanks again, HAL333. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:29, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Do we need some sort of asterisk or note for the District of Columbia, which is not a U.S. state? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Good point. I decided to give it yellow coloring and add a key and dagger. I also threw Rosa Parks into the main table. ~ HAL333 17:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- This last seems to be a problem. The Architect of the Capitol says, on the cited page, "Despite its location in the U.S. Capitol, the Rosa Parks statue is not a part of the National Statuary Hall Collection." (I'm uncertain why the citations all go to archived versions in addition to the live versions.) The same is true of Frederick Douglass; "This statue is not a part of the National Statuary Hall Collection." These statues seem, thus, to require removal, therefore, but I am not sure how best to approach it. Should there be a separate section of statues in the hall/s that are not part of the collection? Czrisher (talk) 19:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- Czrisher, I've been wondering about this as well. I think the NSHC articles should only discuss works specifically part of the collection. @Carptrash, Ham II, and Randy Kryn: Putting on your radar as well, in case you have other thoughts/concerns. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- Would "sculptures of the National Statuary Hall Collection" also include the works listed at National Statuary Hall Collection § Collection (except for Douglass and Parks, as we've already established)? If so, that's a second reason the title of this article doesn't match its scope. It seems sensible to me to have a dedicated list for the state statues, so I think the title rather than the essential scope of this list should change. And alas, Douglass and Parks are outside that essential scope if they're not in the NSHC. There should be links for the statues in the Capitol which aren't in the NSHC, separate from the main list: Douglass and Parks, but also Edward Dickinson Baker, Grant, Hamilton, Jefferson and Lincoln. Ham II (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- My feeling is that this article should just list the 100 official ones with mention made of statues that were included but were removed. There are other statues in the Capitol that are not in the collection, Vinnie Ream's "Lincoln" comes to mind. Then there are a large number of busts, Vice-Presidents, Speakers, and that sort of thing, plus a lot a architectural stuff that would need to be accounted for. Is this what we are talking about? Carptrash (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think the statue of Rosa Parks is fine, as it is in the room and thus basically a part of the collection (if a stamp is in a stamp album then it is within the collection, and for all intents and purposes is part of the collection except in name only). Parks' statue listed under 'Congress' on the chart adequately defines the subtle difference. Checked the Civil rights movement in popular culture page where the statue is listed as being "in National Statuary Hall" and, being accurate, required no change. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- My feeling is that this article should just list the 100 official ones with mention made of statues that were included but were removed. There are other statues in the Capitol that are not in the collection, Vinnie Ream's "Lincoln" comes to mind. Then there are a large number of busts, Vice-Presidents, Speakers, and that sort of thing, plus a lot a architectural stuff that would need to be accounted for. Is this what we are talking about? Carptrash (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- Would "sculptures of the National Statuary Hall Collection" also include the works listed at National Statuary Hall Collection § Collection (except for Douglass and Parks, as we've already established)? If so, that's a second reason the title of this article doesn't match its scope. It seems sensible to me to have a dedicated list for the state statues, so I think the title rather than the essential scope of this list should change. And alas, Douglass and Parks are outside that essential scope if they're not in the NSHC. There should be links for the statues in the Capitol which aren't in the NSHC, separate from the main list: Douglass and Parks, but also Edward Dickinson Baker, Grant, Hamilton, Jefferson and Lincoln. Ham II (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- Czrisher, I've been wondering about this as well. I think the NSHC articles should only discuss works specifically part of the collection. @Carptrash, Ham II, and Randy Kryn: Putting on your radar as well, in case you have other thoughts/concerns. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- This last seems to be a problem. The Architect of the Capitol says, on the cited page, "Despite its location in the U.S. Capitol, the Rosa Parks statue is not a part of the National Statuary Hall Collection." (I'm uncertain why the citations all go to archived versions in addition to the live versions.) The same is true of Frederick Douglass; "This statue is not a part of the National Statuary Hall Collection." These statues seem, thus, to require removal, therefore, but I am not sure how best to approach it. Should there be a separate section of statues in the hall/s that are not part of the collection? Czrisher (talk) 19:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Do we need an article like United States Capitol art, similar to Grand Central Terminal art? This could summarize NSHC work and include information about other artworks associated with the building. ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Would be nice as long as it didn't remove information and images from other articles, such as the interesting chart at the Rotunda page. It could include the various articles about the doors and the statue atop the dome. If done well could easily be eventually considered for feature status. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- This sounds like a fine article. Besides the other sculpture in the place there are murals and paintings and who knows what else that should be in an article of list somewhere. A picture from the recent occupation of the Capitol including a statue or two would be a nice addition somewhere. This one should be left intact. Carptrash (talk) 05:05, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've created a stub to get the ball rolling. I'm very open to how this article should be organized and I invite you all to please make improvements and share suggestions on the talk page. I'm looking forward to seeing the Capitol art, NSHC, and this list updated. I'll be starting a page title discussion momentarily. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- This sounds like a fine article. Besides the other sculpture in the place there are murals and paintings and who knows what else that should be in an article of list somewhere. A picture from the recent occupation of the Capitol including a statue or two would be a nice addition somewhere. This one should be left intact. Carptrash (talk) 05:05, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Bios
edit@Reywas92: I see you're adding bios. I'm curious, are the bios you're adding 'official' reasons for their recognition, or are you adding summaries as you deem most appropriate? I'd argue readers can click on individual names if they seek more information about what makes a person notable. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:40, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- @HAL333: Putting this discussion on your radar as well. I don't love the descriptions but also don't feel strongly about removing if others find them helpful and prefer to keep. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:02, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I appreciate the help Reywas92, but I really don't think they add much to the list and am reverting them. ~ HAL333 21:05, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- HAL333, I support reverting. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- Ridiculous. What doesn't add much to the list is not having anything about the actual people on the list! What kind of nonsense is "also questionable as to how we should determine each individual's significance and the state's reasoning"? Did I say that this was the state's exact reasonings? I'm just using https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/sites/default/files/documents/brochures/low-res/CVC_17-117_GuideToStateStatues.pdf, so I'm not subjectively determining their significance, just taking the key points of the AOC. The point of a featured list is to have comprehensive inforamation together so readers don't have to click through a hundred pages or a hundred sources! It should have "annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items" and it's absolulely appropriate to have such annotations. Reywas92Talk 21:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- Reywas92, Well, then find other editors who agree with you. Until then... ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- Ridiculous. What doesn't add much to the list is not having anything about the actual people on the list! What kind of nonsense is "also questionable as to how we should determine each individual's significance and the state's reasoning"? Did I say that this was the state's exact reasonings? I'm just using https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/sites/default/files/documents/brochures/low-res/CVC_17-117_GuideToStateStatues.pdf, so I'm not subjectively determining their significance, just taking the key points of the AOC. The point of a featured list is to have comprehensive inforamation together so readers don't have to click through a hundred pages or a hundred sources! It should have "annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items" and it's absolulely appropriate to have such annotations. Reywas92Talk 21:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- HAL333, I support reverting. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- Just a list of names is boring as hell. This is more than a hundred people and if this is going to be a featured list, readers deserve more context. People aren't going to click through a bunch of links on a list this long, with the vast majority of names unfamiliar to even those well versed in American history. How would someone know who they want more information about in particular if they've hardly heard of anyone here in the first place? A brief snippet of their notability can pique their interest about particular subjects and give context to the honorees as a whole similar to National_Statuary_Hall_Collection#Demographics. 'Official' reasons can be quite long [1] and a short blurb is appropriate, taken from the AOC reference. Reywas92Talk 21:08, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Just a list of names is boring as hell
I guess that the vast majority of our featured lists can be discarded then... ~ HAL333 21:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)- Yeah, that's why my featured lists like List of national parks of the United States and National recreation area do have descriptions about each item. They'd be much shoddier if I deleted the Description columns, and a page recognized as something that "exemplifies our very best work" should have more not less. If the Architect of the Capital provides biographical information for each statue, this list should have a little bit of that too. I'd agree that just "U.S. senator" is too short though and more reasoning for selection would be good. Reywas92Talk 21:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Statue of Pierre Charles L'Enfant
editStatue of Pierre Charles L'Enfant ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:08, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- I was just coming here to make the mane point. Are the 2 DC statues, for L'Enfant and Douglas,[2] considered part of the collection or are they somehow separate? This should be noted in this list.--Found5dollar (talk) 05:10, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- This source says, "Neither L'Enfant's or Douglass' statue will be considered part of the official "National Statuary Hall Collection." I'll try to make some updates accordingly. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:44, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Update needed July 2022? FL?
editThe Statue of Mary McLeod Bethune (U.S. Capitol) replaced Confederate General Edmund Kirby Smith's statue in 2022, according to one article. Leads one to believe this is not an up-to-date featured list. It's not a project I foresee myself undertaking. Djflem (talk) 14:14, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Kansas 2022
editNeeds updating after Amelia Earhart replaced senator statue. Romo, Vanessa (July 27, 2022). "An Amelia Earhart statue joins the U.S. Capitol's Statuary Hall". NPR. Retrieved July 27, 2022. Mrericsully (talk) 06:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see Statue of John James Ingalls in the list currently. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- Both comments are correct. Earhart replaced Ingalls in the relevant Wikipedia pages, including this one, on July 28, 2022, almost exactly halfway between the posts by Mrericsully and Another Believer.Czrisher (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)