Talk:Confederate Ireland

All comments on this article are more than welcome JD

I've made a couple of edits to clarify bits on the Confederate's internal politics, which I thought were a bit confusing. Jdorney

Very good article, but my question is still unanswered. Does anybody know what percentage of the people at the Confederation of Kilkenny were patrilineally Gaelic-Irish? Another question: Was the Confederation actually the name of the parliament while Confederate Catholics were lead by the Supreme Council, which was formed as the effective government?

I forget the article but Dónal Cregan's study years ago of the anti-Gaeil rhetoric of the Old English verses the reality of their huge familial alliances with leading Gaelic families was very instructive. If anybody knows the study in question, that is my bonus question. Will be happy to get the previous two questions answered though! Thanks

Ok, here are some answers, to the best of my knowledge: A. The number of Confederate General Assembly members with a Gaelic Surname was about 40% of the total. Although, as you rightly say, almost all the "Old English" had Gaelic blood as well. The reverse is true of the Gaels. Donal Cregan was a real pioneer in the modern study of this area. Micheal O Siochru, who is the leading expert nowadays, argues that class and province was more important than ethnicity in Confederate factionalism. For instance, one of the most prominent "Old English" members was Donagh MacCarthy Viscount of Muskerry.

B. No, the Confederation was composed of all those who took its oath of allegiance. It was organised into a General Assembly and a Supreme Council which together formed a de facto government of Ireland. The important thing to remember here is that the Confederate Catholic Association of Ireland (to give it its formal name), never actually claimed to be an independent government, because they professed to be good Royalists, loyal to Charles I. Since only the King could legally call a Parliament, the Confederate General Assembly never claimed to be Parliament either, however much it acted like one. In negotiations with the Royalists, the Confederates demanded that all concessions made to them would be ratified in post war Irish Parliament, which would have looked a lot like the Confederate General Assembly with some Protestant Royalists thrown in.

Finally, sorry don't know then ame of the Cregan article, but I think I have seen the article you mention once. Jdorney 01:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

A cross, a harp and cross, surmounted by a dove, constituted the arms of the confederation. Fergananim 16:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

The inset photograph gives Kilkenny Castle as the seat or meeting place of the Confederation. I think this is not correct. Firstly, the building in the photograph is relatively modern,and was the seat of the Dukes of Ormonde. Secondly, a plaque in Kilkenny's Marketyard marks the site, in a different part of the city, of a building which housed the Confederation. Knockanore (talk) 23:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

From what Meehan says, the house in the Marketyard (nearly) across the street from Rothe House is where the Oath of Confederation was first taken. However, he also says that (later on) the assembly did meet in the gallery of Kilkenny Castle. Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:50, 31 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

I have listed Viscount Mountgarret as the last Leinster Supreme Council member, I am not 100% sure of this so feel free to correct this if you find evidence suggesting otherwise. Inchiquin (talk) 11:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

This article does not inform us how many members were in the General Assembly. Does anybody know, and was that figure constant? Furthermore, does anybody know the names of all the members and how they were elected? This article would be enhanced by including those names. 109.77.133.139 (talk) 09:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Does anybody have a copy of the Oath? It would make fascinating reading. 212.129.66.131 (talk) 19:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

See - Confederate Oath of Association - linking on the main page.78.19.199.69 (talk) 10:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

The article doesn't quite get across that Charles could not be seen publicly to support the Confederacy, given that he had to win the war in England in 1642-45 first. Allying himself with the people he himself had described as Catholic rebels would make victory much harder, as he would lose support in England. So when Lord Castlehaven was quietly negotiating on his behalf, and it became public, Charles had to repudiate his efforts.78.19.199.69 (talk) 10:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

The section "Significance" currently begins: "Confederate Ireland was arguably the only sustained attempt at Catholic Irish self-government between 1558^{[clarification needed]} and the foundation of Irish Free State in 1922." What about the Patriot Parliament of 1689 or the first and second Dála? Also, "Catholic Irish self-government" is a bit of an odd characterization; you didn't have to be Catholic to participate in Irish self-government under the Free State either. All in all, this seems oddly framed. Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:28, 29 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

The Confederate motto in Latin is well known. The version given in modern Irish (Éireannaigh aontaithe le Dia, rí agus tír) is in the post-1960s spelling, and would have been quite different in the mid 1600s.78.17.37.62 (talk) 20:01, 1 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

The article currently says, 'After the Confederates rejected the peace deal, Ormonde handed Dublin over to a parliamentarian army under Michael Jones.' The Michael Jones article says, "Jones and the other parliamentary commissioners landed at Dublin on 7 June 1647, and concluded a treaty with Earl of Ormonde (His old Royalist commander) for the delivery of Dublin and other places still in his possession on 18 June 1647." So, if the Confederates rejected the deal after the Battle of Benburb on 5 June 1646, surely this is not the cause for something happening a year later, as the current wording implies? Why did it take so long? Dáibhí Ó Bruadair (talk) 12:42, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

This page seems to be almost entirely about the history of the state, not about other aspects of it. This page would probably make more sense named 'History of the Irish Confederacy'. If this page was about the state itself I think it should include other aspects like its economy, government, demography, society, and its military. Like the wikipedia page of a modern state. Iamdmonah (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)Reply