Talk:Helen Dale

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The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Skepticlawyer (talk · contribs) / Darville, Helen Darville, Helen

Responding to an entry in the Edit History that Darville did not claim any Eastern European backgrounds other than coming from the Ukraine:

According to Sneja Gunew in Performing Australian Ethnicity: 'Helen Demidenko we find:

"As tireless investigative reporters from her home town of Brisbane, sifted the evidence, it was revealed that the author had a long history of 'passing' as an 'ethnic', although her specific allegiances had been all over the map, so to speak, ranging from Czechoslovakian to Hungarian etc. (Bentley 1995; Dibben 1995)."

I attended Queensland University with Helen Darville before her "literary career" began and was in quite a number of lecture groups and tutorials with her for many years. I can say that from the first meeting she claimed to be czech and that she had learned english in 8 weeks and that she had been in australia for only 6 months. I found out a few months later that she had told one of the Classics faculty lecturers and tutor that she was hungarian, and another student that she was polish (unconnected to the comment below i think). She claimed that her father was a poor taxi driver, even though in a lecture she made a comment that her mother collected Wedgewood. Also to anyone who was familiar with brisbane it was obvious that Helen was a product of a private girl's school (Grace Lutheran i beleive). I cannot explain it any better than that, but anyone from brisbane would understand this. She came accross as somewhat spoilt and on one memorable occassion for the tute group she was scathing in her criticism, to the point of offensive, of the Classics and Ancient History faculty when she did not recieve the marks to which she felt she was entitled. During my time at university with her, i can say the people began to realise that not everything that she said was necessarily factually based. By a strange coincidence, through mutual friends in the brisbane reenactment community, i happened to know Paul Gadaloff, the guy that gave helen access to The Black Deeds of the Kremlin; he was from a russian emigre family that claimed aristocratic heritage and he was seemingly obsessed with returning to russia to reclaim the family estates. For another reference to the gadaloff's, Garth, brother of the above:

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/qjudgment/QCA%201998/QCA98-458.pdf

When her novel was released amid the claims that she was making regarding her background, etc, i thought that it would only be a very short time before the "fiction" was uncovered; instead it went on and no one questioned what was being said in the media. Given that i am only one person of the literally dozens if not hundreds of people that shared lectures and tutorials with helen darville, who knew that she was not who she was now claiming to be, i still find it remarkable that no one said anything. I also knew girls that had attended high school with her, who also knew that what she was claiming was not true. In the 1990's Brisbane was still a relativly "small town" and the number of people that knew the real truth about helen darville must have been remarkable.

When Helen Darville was awarded the Miles Franklin it was just surreal that no one had caught on the deception. Taken in the context of the long history of contradictory lies, fabrications and half truths that she had told about herself I think that it is amazing that no one at all thought to say anything or that the media didn't do even superficial research, so much for the efforts of those "tireless investigators"!!

And in Natalie Jane Prior's The Demidenko Diary Prior says that Darville claimed Polish-Ukrainian background when they were studying in a course together before the writing of The Hand that Signed the Paper.

I cannot remember that exact reference but it is on the first few pages of that book.

This site may or may not help: http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/18/sept99/victim.htm

I do know that these are second-hand sources at best, and the editor who first raised it had a first-hand source. EuropracBHIT 11:15, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is this really a reliable site to be using? Further, is it NPOV?

(I did have a look at it. It mainly seemed to castigate certain columnists who write for the Age and the Sydney Morning Herald, and reviewers).

For those of you who don't know it, it seems very pro-Darville. I looked in Google and there were 133 references to it, mostly in directories. So its claim that it is suppressed is not very true.

Rather, its situation seems to be a case of self-promotion:

"Fairfax Are Yellow Monitoring the censorship of Australian writer and journalist Helen Darville by the Fairfax media and their associates." is seen in the vast majority of tags.

This is what is in the directories (which include DMOZ, Tiscali and Excite, to name a few): /Society/ Issues/Business/Allegedly_Unethical_Firms/One_Complainant/ EuropracBHIT 11:30, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

i seem to recall that those accusations may not have been so false as to justify a flat rejection by this article. this article appears to be a one sided defence of darville for most of it. if my memory recalls, some of the accusations against darville were substantiated. Xtra 12:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Apparent edits by pro-Darville anons like 213.105.232.92 - Skysmith 20:48, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• There are newspapers claiming it was real; given the provability defenders are obligated to bring forth a source which says otherwise. Mackensen (talk) 23:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of this article appeared on ABC's "All in the Mind" radio programme as Helen Dale in 2006, which I've added to the article (along with a redirect page). I suppose, as this is her current name, the page should be moved? Ben White 11:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it's not moved, this page really needs an explanation of why it's under 'Helen Darville', and she is referred to throughout as Darville, but the summary leads off with 'Helen Dale' and birth dates. Is Darville a married name, legally changed name, adoptee name? The way this is phrased it appears not to be a simple pseudonym like Demidenko. I ask this as someone who knows nothing about this case—if I'm confused, others will be too.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.136.101 (talk) 23:57, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good example of a dressed-up blurb, and it belongs in a publisher's catalogue. I'd expect better on a Kellog's Corn Flakes packet. Thedarky 14:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this page is a white wash. Helen Demidenko should have her own page as a hoax and helen Darville-Dale-Demidenko the real person could have a bio page. If I didn't have a real life I'd fixed it. --Meika (talk) 08:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The hoax and the prize-winning novel are notable. The rest isn't.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Edofedinburgh 02:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed this [1] from the 'Oxford' section as the ref cited didn't mention anything about it. Anchoress · Weigh Anchor · Catacomb 05:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The opening sentence reads: "Helen Dale, formerly a lover of Jamie Darville (born 24 January 1972) is an Australian columnist and writer." This reads poorly. It appears from this that Jamie Darville was born on 24 January 1972 and not Helen Dale. Secondly, why the reference to Jamie Darville, without explanation, when he doesn't rate a separate page entry of his own? Is this trying to say that Helen Dale changed her name to Darville after being Jamie Darville's lover, or something else? I'm confused. I think this first sentence needs a re-write. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 10:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction to this page has now been amended, for which many thanks. Perry Middlemiss (talk)—Preceding undated comment added by Perry Middlemiss (talk • contribs) 23:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As part of my personal project to raise the profile of the Miles Franklin Award I am creating a separate page for each winner of the award. Helen Darville's page contains details of the novel which will make this rather difficult. I'd prefer to see it on its own page. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 03:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at Thomas Keneally and the reference in it to Schindler's Ark. I think you could do the same thing. Abbreviate what's on this article to one para (I think given the controversy a small section needs to be retained here), put in the Main Article tag as per the Keneally article, and then transfer the rest over to a separate article. Hopefully those who added it here will be happy with that.Sterry2607 (talk) 07:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestion. I'll work towards that. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is mention of the fact that the Sydney Morning Herald report that Darville's novel was originally submitted as non-fiction is not true. But no evidence or reference is provided for this refutation. In the absence of such evidence I suggest we take the news paper report as factual. I suggest that registered users edit the page to delete the claim that the report is not true. Blurredcrusader (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The italicised section of the following sentence has been deleted from this article: "This created a furore and much debate on the nature of identity and ethnicity in Australian literature, with many comparing it to the Ern Malley Affair, a noted Australian literary hoax where an acclaimed author was found to have been an entirely fictitious creation of two established poets."

The comment on the amendment states: "Removed reference to Ern Malley affair, which was a hoax, unlike the Darville book."

The original sentence doesn't state that the Darville book was a hoax, only that some commentators indicated that it was. Have a look at [2], in which the two are discussed together.

I agree that the original statement probably needs a clean-up and references but it shouldn't be deleted outright.--Perry Middlemiss (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PM, I agree that the sentence did not expressly say that the Helen Dale book was a hoax, but I do think it inferred that. The distinction between the book and the Ern Malley affair is not really made clear there or anywhere else in the article. There is a reference to 'the deception' but to follow that sentence with a direct comparison to Ern Malley makes it less clear that the Helen Dale book was not a hoax, unlike Ern Malley. It seemed a bit indelicate to state the distinction clearly so I decided that to delete the reference entirely would be safer - I would be grateful for your thoughts on a good way to include the Ern Malley reference while making the distinction clear (as I'm struggling with that). LaurenA1 (talk) 10:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give it some thought. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The intro as it stands tell readers nothing at all about what this author has actually written about. It also fails to specify in what sense she perpetrated a hoax. I'm drafting an expanded version of the introduction which tries to fill these gaps. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 03:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should this article be renamed to Helen Dale, seeing as it's what she seems to be best known as now? Also, any idea when she changed her name (to Dale)? 58.7.90.83 (talk) 06:03, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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The article alternates between calling her "Dale" and calling her "Darville." Make up your mind.

Really, this article should be nominated for deletion on the grounds that this second-rate con-artist doesn't deserve an article.

Sardaka (talk) 09:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello dawnseeker2000, you recently did a cleanup of this article. I noticed that in one instance, you changed the character entity for the em-dash to its unicode symbol and I'm curious to know, why is that style preferable? Thank you. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 14:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. As you know, I completed the edit using AWB. I set up the find and replace to do the link change (the Holocaust → The Holocaust) and added a module to AWB to perform the date format audit, but some of the minor changes are built-in to the program. I am not part of the development team and the change you mentioned may not be discussed anywhere in the documentation. My guess is that it's more compact and cheaper to send over the wire. Dawnseeker2000 22:57, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I don't really know what that means, but ok... Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 01:39, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, sorry about that. I had assumed that you saw the tag for my change in the article. Here's some links to help explain what I meant. AWB is a stand alone program (independent from a web browser) that some editors use to make changes to the encyclopedia. Editors add and maintain a list of common typos and also a group of "built-in" changes called genfixes. That's where I think the emdash; → — originated.😃 Dawnseeker2000 02:50, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I understood that part, I just wasn't sure why the em-dash was changed. Another editor reverted me in a different article and switched the unicode character back to the character entity, so I was trying to understand which style was preferable and why. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:21, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]