Talk:Four stages of awakening

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A link to this page figures in the Jainism template. Someone needs to alter this page to make it relevant to Jainism.69.178.122.114 02:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually, it needs to be taken out of the Jainism template.RandomCritic 04:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the 31 planes of existence are interesting, but thoroughly covered in the corresponding Wikipedia-article. I've moved this section here, for reconsideration if anyone might object the removal. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 04:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are a total of 31 planes of existence divided into three realms. The lowest realm is the realm of sensuality (kama-loka) with the human world being the lowest fortunate world. Above this realm is the fine material realm (rupa-loka), with numerous deva worlds : The lowest classes of devas (1) the desire realm devas devote their time to enjoying and satisfying sense desires. Higher up are the (2) form and (3) formless devas and brahmas. Having passed beyond sensual desires, the form devas experience the refined bliss of the first four meditative absorptions (jhanas) and possess subtle bodies emanating light. Transcending form, the devas of the formless realm (arupa-loka) reside in subtle conscious states known as unbounded space, unbounded consciousness, nothingness, and neither perception nor non-perception(Jhana's 5 thru 8 respectively).

Although these devas and brahmas live extremely long lives of ease and luxury in worlds that may be described as paradises, they are not immortal. They too will eventually pass away, often falling to a lower state of existence either because it is difficult for them to find the motivation to practice the Dharma (which creates profitable karma) since they can also submit to distractions, or, since pure deva consciousness is yet within samsara, because some cycle of ignorance, craving for continued existence, or holding a self-view, exhausts their merit or good karma. Such a death means there was not enough spiritual progress. They fall, but they may also take rebirth on the same plane or rise to a higher plane. Unfortunately they may fall as far as the subhuman plane.

There are numerous lower or unfortunate planes below the human world: The least painful is (1) the animal realm (e.g., insects, birds, fish, mammals, etc.). Their lives are characterized by instinct and emotions having to do with survival. Then there is (2) the hungry spirit plane, which is characterized by long periods of hunger and thirst and lack that is difficult to bear. Finally, the lowest plane is (3) the hell planes, where beings are relentlessly tormented depending on the plane (pierced, scalded, tortured, frosted, etc.) by the fears arising from their delusional mind as a result of unprofitable karma. The suffering continues for what seems like an eternity but eventually the karma that sustained that existence is exhausted and the hell beings (narakas) pass away and are reborn elsewhere in samsara according to their karma.

Doing good or bad (bodily, verbally, or mentally) as influenced by an entity's mental attachments ( sans. Raga ) and aversions ( sans. Dvvesh ), an ordinary entity is born in higher or lower states of being (heavens, lower states, or even tormenting hells) according to their actions in preceding births.

As these entities have little control over their minds and behaviors, due to the hardships they experience, their destinies are haphazard and subject to great suffering. Worries, "tension", adversaries, and general adversity are their daily grindstone - all projections of their own mind, instigated by the driving force of past karma, subsisting as samskaras, or tendencies, in the thought-stuff, and manifested as vasanas, or predilections, in immediate consciousness and behavior.

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Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Four stages of awakening page - reversion of edits

Hi @Joshua Jonathan!

Thank you for your feedback on my edits on the Four stages of awakening page! I agree with some of your points, but if you could help me better understand your reversions, I’d really appreciate it. Learning from them would definitely help me become a better editor.

Regarding undisputed information:

1. I agree with your point that the information under Origins is common knowledge based on its original sources. I felt that including a specific citation could be helpful in accompanying the example introduced of the Visuddhimagga, but I agree with you nonetheless. Thank you for pointing this out.
2. Under Stream-enterer, however, I still feel that a citation would be helpful since the first paragraph seems to include two quotations—“one who enters (āpadyate) the stream (sotas),” and “opened the eye of the Dharma.” How can we consider that a reference is provided for this when there is no citation?

Regarding distorted meaning:

1. In my edits, I tried to cut down on repeated words that do not hinder the meaning of the passages. For example, in Line 2, I changed, “The four stages of awakening in Early Buddhism and Theravada are four progressive stages…” to “The four stages of awakening in Early Buddhism and Theravada are progressive…” I felt this was more concise and improved the flow when reading. There are a few such edits, but I am unsure how they are distorting meaning as I've retained the key information.
2. Moreover, I understand that I removed the third paragraph under the Origins heading which I felt didn’t add to the main idea of the heading/page. The paragraph before it succinctly describes the relevance of the Visuddhimagga, so I felt this additional detail about the treatise was not entirely relevant.
3. Finally, I felt that splitting the paragraphs under the Path and Fruit heading would be ideal since it was originally quite long.

Thank you again for your feedback! If you could help me understand some of these changes, I’d greatly appreciate it! Lunulla (talk) 21:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

End of copied part

@Lunulla: regarding your edits diff:

• “opened the eye of the Dharma,” I reverted them wholesale because I saw too many problems, but in this case a reference could be usefull indeed. This is what Buswell says:

The fourth pair of noble beings are srota-a�pannas, stream-enterers, who have obtained, or are on their way to obtaining, a state where they may return to this ordinary world up to seven more times before they reach the goal of liberation at the end of the PATH. They are called stream-enterers because the stream of the dharma, the understanding of the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS that systematize the content of the Buddha’s liberating teaching, has become one with the stream of their minds.

If I recall Anderson correct, opening the Buddha-eye is understanding the Four Noble Truths; see Four Noble Truths#Acquiring the dhamma-eye and destroying the āsavās. I wouldn't have an exact reference for this, but obviously it's correct that a stream-enterer has opened the eye of dhamma.

• Progressive stages: the lead opens with a definition; your edit turned the definition into a mere description.
• Visuddhimagga: the info on the Visuffhimagga may be relevant for understanding that this later Theravada-text is somewhat different from early Buddhism.
• Splitting paragraphs: did you? I see no difference...

Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]