User talk:Eric Corbett/Archives/2012/October

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Eric Corbett. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Hi Malleus,

I'm sorry your time was wasted on a premature GA call for John Struthers (anatomist). However, the kerfuffle stirred me back into life on the matter. I have moved much of the whale tale to Tay Whale, and have done a bit of work on Struthers. As I'm more of a natural historian than a biographer (i.e. a total newbie in that department), I wonder if you could spare a moment to have a quick look at it, and tell me what I ought to do to it to get it up to standard?

That would be really kind of you. All the best Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes of course. Was there some kerfuffle over the review? I haven't seen any. Malleus Fatuorum 11:54, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. No, just the guy suggesting it and your correct reply. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it's much closer to GA than it was before, but I still think it focuses too much on the whales, including as it does that image gallery in the Tay whale section. The lead is also obviously quite inadequate, not in any sense a summary of the article. Malleus Fatuorum 21:05, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the praise ;-) and for the direction, which I shall act on now. all the best Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Once you've expanded the lead and dumped the image gallery I think you could reasonably nominate the article at GAN again, with a reasonable expectation of success. Malleus Fatuorum 21:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Professionalism and civility and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Alan,

It is unconstructive for you to post this template,

• Alanscottwalker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),

which invites somebody to block you. Neither Malleus nor other non-administrators can block you: I know; I've tried.

Mark acted out of character, and then---back to acting in character---he has repeatedly apologized and offered to pay whatever price is charged at ArbCom.

Why don't you all give this a rest. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:59, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this was an unfortunate situation and simply needs to be put to bed. Neither Mark nor Malleus were the pinnacle of civility, and Mark has sincerely apologized for overreacting and has taken responsibility for his actions. I'm hoping Malleus will publicly accept this, but regardless, taking it to ArbCom is just adding unnecessary drama, and I've said as much there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Alan asked for clarification on my talk page. Briefly, don't have a cow. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:20, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not involved at all, and I don't wish to participate. Just another excuse for Malleus bashing: "Oh, look how horrible Malleus is, he should have been banned years ago". Malleus Fatuorum 17:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Quite rightly so, I wish people would see sense that its mindless bollocks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:14, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

At ANI, of course the right response would have been, "No, of course, Malleus, nobody should ever receive such a message." At some point, somebody could have pointed out that Mark had apologized, and that no excuses could be made, and maybe somebody could have blue-linked non-retaliation....

Instead, there was a lot of "Malleus is so bad, and has such a long block record, that the insult may have been warranted. I'm sure that Malleus must have been guilty, again." How about ArbCom desysops all such blocking heads. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I notice that Elen has already alluded to something like that in her "What else had Malleus said by email?", when there was never any suggestion that I'd said anything at all to Mark by email. Mark is by no means the first administrator to send me abusive emails though, and I'm sure he won't be the last, as it seems to be tolerated here unless they contain a threat to block. Malleus Fatuorum 18:59, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't mean that to sound the way it did. I am having trouble with why, having apparently accepted his apology on Thursday, you decided to take him to AN on Sunday. I just wondered if either of you had said anything more (not necessarily rude) to each other. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

What leads you to believe that I'd accepted his apology? And no, we'd said nothing to each other since Thursday that I can recall. Malleus Fatuorum 23:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Just sounded like an 'OK, don't do it again" type message to me. So I wondered if he'd said anything else that got your goat, or you'd said anything about the apology not being adequate. But obviously not. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really into apologies, as I much prefer to go by what people do, not what they say. This isn't the first time I've received abusive emails from an administrator, and I was curious to see how it would be justified by fellow admins. Malleus Fatuorum 00:29, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

There is no doubt that admins do not want to see an admin send a rude email to another editor, it only makes our jobs more difficult, after all. At the same time, most of us will accept a sincere apology at face value, which was given. We deal with mistakes all day, our own as well, so a level of forgiveness is somewhat required to admin. That few have labored it since the apology is due to the acceptance of the apology, not an act of condoning the original email. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Bull. An ADMINISTRATOR is held to a higher standard. He had to key it in and press <enter> -- plenty of time to think. An Admin s/ immediately lose the bit for sending an Email message like that. (Otherwise abandon the "higher standard" hyperbole.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:05, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Administrators should be held to higher standards, but they're evidently not. In reality they're not even held to the same standard as the ordinary editors they police. But that's not a new phenomenon, been the case for as long as I can remember. In this specific case though I don't think that what Mark did warrants a desysop, although I do think that what Bongwarrior did does. Mark offered what seems like a sincere apology, and it's irrelevant whether or not I choose/chose to accept it. The trouble with ArbCom cases like this one is that they drag on for ever and become very polarising; nobody really looks at the evidence, just trots out their post facto rationales for their well established prejudices. Malleus Fatuorum 14:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Having said that, I also think that if I get blocked (as I was) then Mark should have been too, apology or not. Malleus Fatuorum 14:20, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

It probably comes as no shocker that I think no one should have been blocked. Or both should have been blocked, a terrible solution but at least equally terrible. When two editors (regardless of bit or no bit) bump heads but it appears they are working it out with or without the community, blocks are counterproductive. Too many times, I've seen blocks used in situations where I can only bang my head on my desk, because I know that it will only make the situation worse, not better. Neither ANI nor Arb are going to find solutions either. For outsiders, sometimes the best solution is to do and say nothing. Not every problem can be "fixed", and certainly not with blocks. I wish people could understand that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• I love how people keep harping on about professionalism. I'm a professional, I do my job and get paid for it. Except my job is entirely unrelated to Wikipedia. I'd be happy to be professional on Wikipedia, just so long as someone pays me to be so. Parrot of Doom 21:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

My sentiments entirely. Start paying us as professionals if they want us to be "professional".♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:03, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The word "professional" should not be misused. Wikipedia welcomes ignoramuses and does not even suggest that "users" aspire to acquire amateur competence. Suggesting that editors try to understand something before inflicting their beliefs on our articles is a severe breach of civility, I've been told. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:37, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

When it is said that editors should behave professionally, the meaning is usually the one discussed in the essay User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism. It does not imply that people edit Wikipedia as part of their employment, or as an occupation as opposed to a hobby. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Point taken. Indeed, Kirill Lokshin's essay is good.

Nonetheless, it would be improved by rewording the title and the first paragraph to eliminate the two appearances of the word "professionalism". There is also an objectionable class-connotation with "professionalism", as well as excessive flexibility with "professionalism". Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's a thought. Perhaps the best way to create a "professional" environment is to create a "professional" organisation, one that doesn't treat its "workers" as naughty children. And I've got no idea what kind of "professional" environment those who think that a comment such as "that was fucking pissy" would result in anything other than the question "Why do you think that", not in being ejected from the premises. On the other hand, if a manager started to harass an employee via private emails that would indeed be taken seriously. But not here, obviously. Malleus Fatuorum 16:05, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

It's the bystanders. We're getting stray-pellets to the face, from the shotguns of harshness.

To put it one way: There are a lot of 'bookish' people here, and many 'bookish' archetype people are gentle souls. Perhaps some of us are put-off this project/endeavour/community, if there is a lot of angry and unfiltered dialogue. That's not what we want Wikipedia to be filled with, and we're slowly being driven away (meaning it will eventually be filled with a majority of thickskinned people).

And that's an exaggerated/stereotypical example, to make a point. More realistically, for me personally: I really enjoy dark taboo-breaking standup comedy. Jimmy Carr, Louis C K, George Carlin, Sarah Silverman, etc etc. But I do not ever want to force that flavour of language on a friendly gentle old boffin who is trying to write a Wikipedia article about a country house in the north moors (and who suddenly finds himself in the midst of a hostile and "fuck"-laden argument about [blank] [infoboxes!]). He should not have to suck it up and overlook the harsh insults that are sometimes thrown around.

It's like roughhousing. Some people are utterly comfortable with a few quick jabs or a leaping-attack&wrestle from a colleague or sibling, and a yelled "haha! fuck you too!", but that shit is not fucking acceptable in the British Library or the [insert respectable institution of your choice here]. We're no library, but it's a better example to model ourselves after than a pub or a student dorm (to pick 2 random other less-'professional' locations).

Every time someone gets called an asshole or fuckwit directly, here, I feel like the person in the next library aisle yelled "fuck you!". I'm partially embarrassed at the example my fellow human is demonstrating, and partially feeling defensive in case their hostility is or becomes directed at me, and partially wanting to be competitive/territorial/on-the-same-level by copying the angry attitude forward in my own frustrated-interactions.

Yes, we are surrounded by 'people', many of whom are assholes and fuckwits, and 50% are below average according to various metrics, and that will ALWAYS be the case. But the only way to raise the quality of the average, is to follow the motherfragging golden rule - set a good example, that you wish/hope others will imitate.

It's easy to be civil when there are no fuckwads around being idiotic! We will be judged by how we act and react and work in bad times, when surrounded by asshats.

Mumble mumble. Sorry for mumbling everywhere.. Hopefully some of that made sense. As always, Bill said it best. —Quiddity (talk) 23:30, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks again for the great help on Franz Kafka. User:Sarastro1 should complete a review and copyedit of the article today or tomorrow. I was wondering if you would like to take another look at it. It'd be greatly appreciated.PumpkinSky talk 02:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

BB is done with his copyedit. Other tweaks made. It is now at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Franz Kafka/archive1. I thought you may want to know. Comments and improvements welcome. PumpkinSky talk 22:28, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I wish you luck with that, but I'm uncertain how much content work, if any, I'll be doing in the future. Don't much see the point of working on stuff just to watch it being fucked up by fuckwads and accused of ownership if I object. Malleus Fatuorum 01:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, and I do understand wiki frustration. Best wishes. PumpkinSky talk

I saw it too, I've just hit a spot of turbulence (well, quite a lot of turbulence really) so am a bit preoccupied as this has coincided with my free time evaporating. sigh. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:31, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the ArbCom nonsense, or any other of the surrounding crap, just real life commitments. "I'll be back". Malleus Fatuorum 22:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

"Commitments" makes it sound like the rest of life is just a big pain. I hope you're just going AFW to spend time doing something more satisfying, rather than fighting parking tickets or something :-)! --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

My best wishes to you and yours pal. Parrot of Doom 23:08, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Whatever those commitments may be, I hope they aren't that dramatic. Best, —MistyMorn (talk) 23:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

They are, and nothing to do with parking tickets. Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I wish you all the best. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Same here. Nortonius (talk) 10:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, ditto. Given the AC case, I'm sure this will be taken as being "one of your groupies (C) Trusilver" but since I don't give a shit about them, hope to see you back and on form soon. Black Kite (talk) 18:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for wrapping up the GA review on John V.A. MacMurray. If only all reviews were so expeditious! Enjoy your time outside. It's better out there anyway. Homunculus (duihua) 16:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Best wishes PumpkinSky talk 02:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• Love and hugs to you and yours. And various kinds of good vibes which, although it's possible they may do no good, can do no harm. I like to think they can do good. That offer I made earlier still stands, btw. Pesky (talk) 02:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• I stayed inside and am none the better for it. I did finish the Greene novel, whose title I cited incorrectly above, and enjoyed it immensely though I would have liked a happier ending--"happy" in the conventional sense I suppose. I hate seeing drunk zealots and wife-abusers getting away with it. I read about a dozen chapters of The Coral Island and it's quite enjoyable; it takes me back a few decades. It'll be Sippi's once she's done with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Black Beauty. Ha, she's been taking quizzes illegally again--she wasn't supposed to take a vocabulary quiz on some book. At least they bumped her up a reading level: now she's on a green dot with a stripe through it or something like that, only a grade or two below what she actually reads comfortably. All the best, and please give my regards to Mrs. Malleus. Drmies (talk) 05:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• Sorry to disappoint, particularly the trolling and cowardly 109.155.133.204[1], who I note has only made that one posting on Wikipedia and has been neither warned nor blocked. So much for the farcical notion of civility. Malleus Fatuorum 20:22, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Hmm, didn't see that until just now. They were, in the meantime, welcomed heartily. But I can hardly start blocking for civility now--I have a cowardly reputation to uphold in that regard. The Coral Island finally picked up some pace, and just when it does, Bloody Bill dies! Bloody hell! (No reviewer has picked it up yet? We don't hand out rubber stamps anymore?) Drmies (talk) 04:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
    • "Welcomed heartily"? You can't possibly be talking about my post, calling them "anonymous coward" and asking what their main account is? And yet that's the only post on the page. I'm mystified. It wasn't obvious that the word "Welcome" was blood-dripping sarcasm? All right, in that case I give up, I won't try again. (As for blocking, I don't suppose there's much point. I'm presuming they've already flitted to another IP.) Bishonen | talk 11:06, 8 October 2012 (UTC).
      • Yes, welcomed heartily--that's exactly what I mean. ;) And I agree with the blocking in that respect also: those one-hit drive-bys can't be dealt with other than by requiring registration. MF, I finished the book. I'd love to see that schooner of theirs. Drmies (talk) 14:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
        • It's of its time. I was blissfully unaware of the imperialistic overtones, just enjoyed the adventure. Shamefully though the book that made the deepest impression on me as a young teenager was The Mystery at Witchend, one of Malcolm Saville's Lone Pine series. It was just a run-of-the mill wartime adventure story about a brother and sister who were evacuated to a country village where they became friends with an older girl, Petra, and succeeded in exposing a local German spy ring. It may just have been my hormones, but I fell in love with Petra and I moped for days in the certain knowledge I had no chance of ever meeting a character in a novel. Quite possibly if I read the book again today I'd think it was crap, but even today I still think fondly of it. Malleus Fatuorum 19:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre was promoted. I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your aid. Certainly, if it weren't for you the article wouldn't look as good as it does now. Thank you very much, Malleus. --Lecen (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Well done. As I said at the review, it's a very nice article that I would have supported if others had not. Malleus Fatuorum 20:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Bravo, gentlemen! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Another living and breathing example of the fact that I don't bear grudges, and obviously neither does Lecen; if only there were more like us here. Malleus Fatuorum 22:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Soon you shall be saying kinds words about the Brazilian legal profession! :D Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Unlikely. I don't even have kind words to say about the English legal profession. Malleus Fatuorum 22:24, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Cough... Well, fair enough, one might think. If you need us, though, we'll be there for you. Like the NHS, only more expensive. Bencherlite^Talk 19:06, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The law is a system developed to make lawyers richer and their clients poorer, but I admit there are times when even I have no option but to resort to a lawyer. Apart from the common or garden conveyancing though it's never been worthwhile, and usually an expensive waste of time. Malleus Fatuorum 19:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Be quiet, fool--"when even I have no option but to resort to a lawyer", some admin is going to take that as a legal threat and block you indefinitely. Madre de Dios! Drmies (talk) 00:32, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

  You're probably right, and I remain astonished that I'm still here. Malleus Fatuorum 00:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I ought to add that like Jonathan Swift my antipathy isn't towards individual lawyers but to the profession of lawyer. Heck, my sister-in-law got her LL.B. years ago, and one of my nephews is currently studying law at university. Malleus Fatuorum 19:24, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Some of your best friends are lawyers, Malleus! (snort) Montanabw^(talk) 20:57, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Family, not friends. But if I had to pick one trade/profession I despise above all others it would be investment wanking: wide boy city traders gambling with other people's money. Malleus Fatuorum 21:23, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Heeheeheeheeeee, do you KNOW how many lawyers are posting on your talk page? But now that you mention "investment wanking" I'm with you there 100% and thank you for an excellent new term! Montanabw^(talk) 23:13, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

No I don't. And neither do I know how many administrators, bureaucrats, or other power users post here, and neither do I care. Malleus Fatuorum 00:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus, keeping in mind your comments at the FAC for Oerip Soemohardjo, would you mind looking at Sudirman before I go to FAC? Hopefully the prose issues aren't too terrible. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:01, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback on the Woodstock Library article. Happy to address your concerns ASAP. Would you mind perhaps striking or capping resolved concerns so it is easier to differentiate between resolved and unresolved problems? Your time and assistance is much appreciated--I look forward to having an improved article to showcase to MCL staff. --Another Believer _(Talk) 13:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow, THANK YOU for your many improvements to the article. --Another Believer _(Talk) 14:12, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

If you're going to offer it as a model then it ought to be a good model. Have you considered reducing the clutter in the text by converting to list defined references? Malleus Fatuorum 15:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am thrilled with the current state of the article and think it makes a great model. Thanks so much for your help, seriously. I always appreciate thorough reviews. Actually, embarrassingly, I am not sure what you mean by list defined references, or if I do I don't recognize it by name. Could you offer an example? I want article to offer best practices, but at the same time provide the best learning opportunities (AKA don't make it too hard on the newbies!)... --Another Believer _(Talk) 02:05, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll convert it and you can see for yourself. If you don't like it for whatever reason you can always revert me. Malleus Fatuorum 02:33, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Apart from potentially tidying up the citations I'm going to leave the rest of the review to your official GA reviewer; I'm just an interloper. I'd be interested to know how your presentation to the library goes next week though. Malleus Fatuorum 03:49, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like I will be needing another GA reviewer. That sure didn't go as planned... Please let me know if any of your concerns related to the article still need to be addressed. Thanks so your assistance. --Another Believer _(Talk) 00:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Your reviewer was a malevolent idiot, no shortage of them here. Renominate the article at GAN and I'll pass it. Malleus Fatuorum 00:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure you have the authority to pass the article given your contributions to the article. According to GAN, "Articles can be nominated by anyone, and reviewed by any registered user who has not contributed significantly to the article." That being said, I cannot make that call and I would at least appreciate your comments on the new review (either to offer support or to address any concerns you may still have). Thanks again. --Another Believer _(Talk) 15:46, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course I have the "authority", but all's well that ends well. Malleus Fatuorum 20:18, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the two issues you brought up here, even though the first was referenced with three different sources. Till 03:55, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus

Thanks for contributing to Gibraltar F.C., we're doing a project in Gibraltar at the moment to help improve the articles, here

Mrjohncummings (talk) 09:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to be a very welcoming place to be. DYK I mean, not Gibraltar. Malleus Fatuorum 14:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

You are most welcome to copyedit Koutoubia Mosque before it hits the front page..♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

How very generous of you. Malleus Fatuorum 14:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, as the DYK consensus on the Gibraltar hooks was to promote no more than one per day, I had to revert your promotion of Rosia Bay to Prep 3 since Gibraltar F.C. was already in Prep 2. I'm about to do so again, although you haven't been doing it correctly. Please do not continue; if you wish to discuss this, I've already opened a subtopic in the Gibraltar section. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

And how do I do it correctly? Malleus Fatuorum 14:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• You need to substitute the template (i.e. use subst: ) as well as fill in the "passed" parameter — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

  Yeah, I know that now, thanks. Maybe I'll have better luck tomorrow. Malleus Fatuorum 22:52, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

  Good luck. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Please go look at the DYK section on these promotions. Down at the bottom, I think there's some confusion. Please.  —  Maile66 (talk) 14:29, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

There certainly is some confusion. Malleus Fatuorum 14:34, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello MF. Regarding your reverting the IP here [2]. The IP was on one of those mild vandalism sprees where they were making seemingly innocuous changes to dates and cities etc all of which were inaccurate. I reverted the others but I have a question about this one. In the infobox the birth year is c. 1572 but it is 1573 in the death date template. Is that a mistake? Or is it something to do for using "circa" for the birth year. I hadn't encountered anything like it before and I wanted to find out in case I come across something like it in the future. Thanks for your time. MarnetteD | Talk 18:09, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I would imagine the template year is something that some bot has done. I wrote most of the article but I rarely bother with those templates, I just leave them to others who understand them. Parrot of Doom 18:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks PoD. In all of those templates that I have dealt with the info in "birth" is always the same in "death" and that lets the age calculation do its thing. But, I have never dealt with it when one of the dates is "circa" so I thought that their might be some quirk in working with that. On the other hand if the two dates should match I thought I'd check with those who take care of the article so they can fix it. For years we had a vandal on film articles that went around changing the release date by a year or two just to mess with the article. Maybe not important in the grand scheme of things - I was just curious. Cheers to you both. MarnetteD | Talk

I've changed it to 1572 anyway, just to give a more plausible idea of his age at death. To be honest though I'm not sure the {{Death year and age}} template is appropriate in cases like this one though, when all we know is that he wasn't born before 1572. Malleus Fatuorum 19:00, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi. What was your rationnale for reverting my edit on this page. I thought it was uncontroversial. The phrase "but not official recognition of their political status" seems to me to be POV, in that it assumes that they were, or should have been considered to be, political prisoners. The very slight re-phrasing removed that implication and seems to me more neutral. Jay-W (talk) 21:16, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Your alternative – "but not official recognition of political status" – is a barbarism. Everyone has a political status; you, me, everyone, and to deny that displays a POV. Malleus Fatuorum 22:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

In that case your argument is with the original phrase "political status" and not the change I made. Jay-W (talk) 22:13, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't presume to tell me what my argument is. Malleus Fatuorum 22:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Right. Well if you want to make your objections clear and be constructive then please do so, but I'm not going to get drawn into some pointless argument with you. Jay-W (talk) 22:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Then you ought not to have started one. Malleus Fatuorum 22:31, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

OK. I've realised now there's no hope of any intelligent discussion with you. If you decide you want to make a useful contribution you can follow this discussion on the article talk page.Jay-W (talk) 22:43, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you have hope of an intelligent discussion with anyone? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)19:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

You seem incapable of understanding what you've already been told; perhaps you don't understand the term "barbarism" when applied to sentence structure? Malleus Fatuorum 22:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

A sentence structure cannot be barbaric. And you are not being constructive. Jay-W (talk) 22:58, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Now you're just being silly. Malleus Fatuorum 23:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I see no point in continuing this non-discussion. Please use the article talk page. Jay-W (talk) 23:05, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The American Mathematical Society's "Guide for authors of mathematical papers" had this Piranianism: "The barbarism called the dangling participle has become more common but not less loathsome." Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:13, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

You must be mistaken; Jay-W knows better, or at least he thinks he does. Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

You are right. I must have been mistaken in thinking Piranian was thanked in Steven Krantz's recent AMS guide to writing, when it must have been in fact Jay-W. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Truthkeeper just posted a support at the FAC, and included some comments, one of which is about the lead. Since you worked on it, I was wondering if you could give me your opinion. My reflex would be to merge the short first para with the second, and move the second sentence further down, to place it in chronological order, but Jim's support seems to have been conditional on three paras in the lead so I don't really want to do that. Can you take a look? Perhaps the lead could expand slightly, to allow that merge but still have three paras? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:20, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I've jiggled a few things around, see what you think. Malleus Fatuorum 15:24, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I like it; thanks. I'll post at the FAC and see if Truthkeeper's OK with it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

And I see you've already done that too. Thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Re [3] - let me know if I'm stepping on any toes and causing unnecessary edit conflicts.  Volunteer Marek  21:25, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

You carry on. As I've said in the GA review I think the article needs a bit of reorganisation, so let me know when you're done and I'll pick up the review again. Malleus Fatuorum 21:30, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Apologies, I pasted the translated de tag into the article instead of the talk page by accident. Hope there isn't any major edit conflict. It's clearly based on a de wiki translation (even the etymology section has its own tiny paragraph at the end) and the author didn't credit them. I've notified the writer. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:11, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

No, everything's fine. I've restored the Discovery section you merged with Background, because what I want to see is some background on dog funerals/burials/mummification in Ancient Egypt. It's not at all clear to me, for instance, whether Abuwtiyuw was remarkable because he was buried ceremonially, or because his funeral ceremony was so elaborate. But that's for the nominator to sort out; the sources are there to do it. Malleus Fatuorum 15:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and also the date is unclear as the Boston Museum started reporting on it in 1933. I think the 1936 is actually the publication date, I might be wrong though. The nominator says he is "discouraged" at the moment. I'll try to look into it but I couldn't find much in google books beyond the snippets and a lot of sources for some reason have errors when you click them. JSTOR only has two articles, one the article used and another which I believe is some sort of copy of the other. it has occurred to me though that different spelling might pick up more, the German name for instance..♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:28, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I've been able to check out the December 1936 PDF the article relies so heavily on (for some reason it was unavailable earlier), and it says the tablet was discovered "last winter", so could be either 1935 or 1936. Malleus Fatuorum 16:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

1935 I'd go with, I also saw 1935 in another snippet.. I've picked something up under the other spelling which the Germans use but damned server went funny on me as I was about to save. I'll try again shortly.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to leave that as another thing for the nominator, or you, to sort out. Malleus Fatuorum 16:40, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

p.207 photograph by Boston Museum is dated 18 October 1935, date of discovery. I'll ask Gerda to translate the snippets it picks up.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave it to you to do whatever you think is best. I'm not fond of the way you've re-merged the Background and Discovery sections, as it's not at all clear what this is now the background to. As I said, what I want to see there is a background to the Ancient Egyptian practice of holding funeral services for dogs. But I'll suspend judgement until you've finished. Malleus Fatuorum 17:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for assistance in regards to that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's hope he can help, as I wouldn't be prepared to list the article as it stands. Malleus Fatuorum 18:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I could see that it would fail, especially with one source, and the idea of a mummified dog fascinates me. Ancient Egypt is one of my major interests but rarely get the chance to work on something of quality towards it. Thanks, I see what you meant now, I hadn't thought of the background being about the burial customs, so its back. I don't want to overcook it though as it is about the dog, I suppose if extensive info could be found an article on Funerary customs of animals in Ancient Egypt could be started. I'll just cap it off now and then see what Aymatth can find.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Aymatth has finished I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that, and for making those needed minor edits too. Great topic. had to save that one! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Some great work done there I think. Malleus Fatuorum 22:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I just had a quick look at this, and thought the use of "spolium, spolia" looks a bit odd to me:

• I haven't come across "spolium", though it might be in use and I just haven't seen it; but, in the second paragraph of the lead, "[The inscribed tablet] was apparently part of the spolium incorporated into the structure" doesn't work, since "spolium" is singular, and such items found together would collectively be "spolia". So, if there were more than one re-used item in the structure, I'd routinely write "It was apparently among spolia incorporated into the structure". If it was the only re-used item, I suppose one might say "It was apparently a spolium incorporated into the structure"; but, as I say, I don't know that "spolium" (singular) is found in modern English. If not, perhaps just avoid using the word!
• In the first paragraph of the section "Discovery", it seems to me that "The tablet was apparently re-used in about 2280 BC in the spolia of a different grave" attributes "spolia" to the wrong grave (and "spolia" are by nature things re-used): here, "spolia" are the spoils of (an) earlier grave(s), so something like "The tablet was apparently among spolia used to build another grave in about 2280 BC" would be better. Spolia are only found in the later grave because someone nicked 'em from (an) earlier one(s), to which they really belong. HTH. Nortonius (talk)

  Thanks. That seems to make sense, so I've made the changes you suggest. Malleus Fatuorum 00:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

  No problem Malleus – glad you agree! Looks much better now, to me anyway... It's been a long day, but my tired brain insisted on making me squeeze that out before bed! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 00:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Haldraper (talk) 09:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you going to comment on the 5 day extension proposal for nominating DYKs to avoid a nominating rush?♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

No, because basically I couldn't care less. Malleus Fatuorum 18:52, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Then bugger off from editing the article and kicking up a stink about DYKs and plagiarism then. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:56, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I shall continue to do as I please, whether or not that meets with your approval. Malleus Fatuorum 19:05, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

You seemed to care enough to complain about it on the talk page and extensively pick holes in the article which would have been avoidable if the duration to write it had been longer and it had been fully copyedited. The fact you imply you don't care less tells me that you like having things to moan about and belittling the work of others. Then when somebody raises a concern about one of your articles you start looking for the sympathy vote here complaining about how much work you put into the article and how dare anybody complain about it. You're one of the most hypocritical editors on here Malleus, always moaning, and then one somebody tries to solve what you clearly think is a problem you say you couldn't careless. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:56, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep it up Blofeld, show everyone what an arsehole you are. Malleus Fatuorum 19:21, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The facts of the matter are very clear, even though you choose to ignore them. In the discussion about including GAs on the main page LauraHale made the rather bold claim that DYKs were more rigorously reviewed than GAs. I challenged that assertion by looking yesterday at the current crop of main page DYKs with a view to demonstrating why they fell short of the GA criteria. The mosque was an egregiously poor example, which out of the kindness of my heart I helped to fix up a bit, for no thanks whatsoever. I have absolutely no interest in DYK, which I think is a joke; my only intention was to refute the ridiculous assertion made by LauraHale, as I do very much care about GA. Malleus Fatuorum 19:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

And this subsection started so beautifully....

"We both know there is good and bad in everyone...."

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:28, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Its because you know I'm right. Every week or two you intentionally get involved in a "conflict" which results in you being warned and you either get blocked or warned which sparks off a new spate of moaning and conversation about how terrible you are treated. You then threaten to leave wikipedia or imply you are "going outside" to get your "friends" here to massage your ego and tell you "You're wonderful Malleus. It would be so awful for you to leave us Malleus, you are our best editor." I've seen you repeat this process dozens of times on here, you insult somebody, get blocked and so the drama ensures, Malleus at the centre of the attention. Jimbo, the foundation, everybody knows what you're like Malleus and its only for the fact you've put in some great work on here that you haven't been banned from the website and are tolerated. I may be an asshole but at least I'm honest asshole and am one of the few people who has the balls to say what everybody else thinks. No doubts people will jump tp your defence here but I'm sick of your attitude Malleus. If you make a point of complaining about the state of an article you could at least show an interest in trying to prevent that sort of thing from happening. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:31, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

It would be best if you didn't post here again Blofeld, as you're simply making a fool of yourself. Malleus Fatuorum 19:32, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. Your attitude seriously needs to improve Malleus. I had barely touched the Hassan article and agreed 100% with your concerns. It was caused purely by a nomination rush and I propose to extend the DYK nomination period to allow editors to try to produce better quality articles and you say you couldn't care less. If you couldn't care less about DYK stop complaining about how dreadful it is and accusing editors of plagiarism and focus on GA then.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:37, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Blofeld, go blow somewhere else. I'm simply not interested in your brain farts. Malleus Fatuorum 20:09, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

It's bad enough that the actor who played the angel in The Green Mile died. Don't you remember the angel's pathos and suffering at how people are mean to each other?

What's going on today? It's like the RfA nonsense has infected the central nervous systems of a lot of normally sane editors. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Your edits as always are appreciated Malleus, and you know I respect you as an editor and at times as a person for what you sometimes stand for. But at times I find you and your negative attitude impossible. I simply don't know how you can make that many edits to an article and take the time to complain about it yet seem unwilling to do anything to prevent it from happening again. You are frequently complaining about the quality of DYK. Maybe you are convinced anything to do with DYK is a joke I don't know and that was your justification for your response but your response given the time you have spent on the article seems a little hypocritical.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

You've got hold of the wrong end of the stick, and I will not discuss this further with you until you drop all these unwarranted personal attacks. Malleus Fatuorum 20:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Did you of all people just brand the WP:NPA/civil card? Goodness me, that must surely raise a few giggles. Well, that settles it then.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what it is you think gives you the right to come here and make all of these insulting and nonsensical allegations, but whatever it is I suggest that you stop drinking it at once. Malleus Fatuorum 21:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

DR Blofeld, I don;t know much of you, but this seems a little unlike you? Could I suggest changing your current beverage for a lervely cup of 'Shroom Tea and an accompanying Shroom Omelette? The crop down here in the lervely Forest has been a real bumper one this year ;P

Malleus, I can totally see where you're coming from with that DYK/GA stuff, and I can totally understand why you edited where you did. It's not from an interest in DYKs, it's just from that overwhelming compulsion to clean the damned stuff up ... In Real Life, I find my ability simply to read something in print, without trying to hit an edit button and polish it up, has significantly diminished! Everything I read, I'm reading with half an eye on how it should be copy-edited, lol! Pesky (talk) 08:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus. I mentioned you at User talk:Cunard#RfA 2 regarding two edits I made to Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Σ and its talk page. Those two edits have been contested on my talk page, and I would be grateful to hear your thoughts about the matter. Cunard (talk) 16:35, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, but my thoughts on the matter are exactly as you describe them. I think the ArbCom restriction is an absolute disgrace, clearly intended to stifle the expression of unpopular opinions, which is what's happening to you now. Malleus Fatuorum 17:08, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Your ArbCom restriction was crafted because you offended too many editors in your RfA opposes. If any discussion between you and another RfA participant is moved to the talk page, I recommend that other editors move it back, as I did in this case. Preventing you from having honest discussions is deplorable. I'll have to be wary about the same happening to myself because it's clear that someone must be punished for their friend's failed RfA. Cunard (talk) 17:21, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

It is indeed very clear. Keepscases has already paid the price and now obviously the "baying mob" are looking for another victim, you. Kudpung is determined by hook or by crook to eliminate all oppose votes at RfA, to make it a friendlier place, that's the bottom line. Malleus Fatuorum 17:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Keepscases should never have been blocked, and Drmies has rectified that injustice. Several of the supporters engaged in similar conduct, but of course they are above reproach because they did not oppose the candidate. Cunard (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• I've mentioned you on Jimbo's page in a discussion related to this RfA. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

  "They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind". You people just don't get it, do you. If you're not respectful to me then you have no right to expect me to be respectful to you, and sure as Hell I won't be. If you want me to be nice to you, then start by playing nice yourself. Malleus Fatuorum 16:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, I'm going to risk sticking my neck out and making an enemy of everyone! The ArbCom restirction was Ceaușescu-esque in the extreme. Very worrying – the thin end of a particularly nasty wedge. On the other hand, I'm going to stick up for Kudpung here, just to remove what I perceive as a misunderstanding / misrepresentation. Kudpung doesn't want to remove oppose !votes, he just wants to remove unwarranted nastiness from them. Personally, I applaud the idea of removing unwarranted, hurtfuly-meant nastiness from a lot of places in here, but I can also see the massive difficulty which we, as a community, face in defining what it genuine nastiness, and what is just coarseness or a culturally-different way of making a point. Malleus, dear heart, you have my permission to call me a stubborn, naïve, overly-optimistic, Pollyanna-like, parblind old cow. I will still send hugs your way. Pesky (talk) 08:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your GA suggestions and corrections. I have responded on the article's talk page. Nightscream (talk) 17:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I'll take another look later this evening. Malleus Fatuorum 17:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I've reviewed Coral Island here and left some very minor nit-picks before passing. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll be right along. Malleus Fatuorum 23:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't tell other editors to "fuck off" [4] Nobody Ent 10:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Imagine my complete lack of surprise when I found that you'd posted a similarly silly message on J3Mrs's talk page, but not the talk page of Stevo1000, who was the user who started all that drama in the first place. Are you bored or something? Parrot of Doom 10:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't tell me not to tell other editors to fuck off when they deserve it. Malleus Fatuorum 13:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• Nobody Ent, while I appreciate your intentions are (probably) good, have you ever considered doing any article improvement work? A look at your last 500 edits doesn't seem to reveal any such work at all. You might even find that those of us who actually write the content would have more respect for your pronouncements on civility and the like if you were to do this. Failing this, you should not be surprised if content editors politely ignore your comments, like a fart on a bus. Incidentally, "incivil" is not a word. --John (talk) 13:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• At the risk of escalating self-referentialism, I don't see how the chiding " have you ever considered doing any article improvement work" is working toward a resolution. I agree with the first part of the statement (good intentions) but I'm not really following why a call for more civility is only valid if it comes from content creators.
• I support the content of Parrot of Doom, who correctly observed that the instigator wasn't addressed (now has been). It is too easy to see a particular word, jump on it as uncivil, and fail to look closer for the more egregious lack of civility.
• I wish MF recognized the knee-jerkedness of many editors (generally speaking, not directed at NE) and modified his use of language. While "wish" often means "request", that is not the case here. The community doesn't have the clean hands to make such a request.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC) (I now see that there was an intent to notify the instigator contemporaneously, but the wrong editor was identified. Sounds like a classic British comedy, except for the lack of humor, unless falsely accusing someone of incivility is self-refernetial enough to qualify as humor.)

  Wish all you like, ain't gonna happen. If "the community" behaved itself then I would have no reason to tell ignorant and rude transgressors to fuck off from where they're unwelcome. Let's try to remember what sparked this incident shall we, and maybe wonder why Nobody Ent sat idly by while another editor was being serially abused for upholding Wikipedia's copyright policy? Malleus Fatuorum 16:04, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I fully understand, that's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't a request. I do see what sparked this, and agree it could have been handled much better. Frankly, your response was remarkably measured given the baiting.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• Happy to clarify your first bullet point SPhilbrick. Criticising others' behaviour is always a risky area to get into, and it works best (by which I mean it is more likely to effect a change in the person's behaviour) where there is mutual respect. I do not claim to speak for Malleus but I imagine he may share my mild contempt for sanctimonious pen-pushers like Nobody Ent who regularly lecture others, hang out at the noticeboards, but never apparently contribute anything of value towards the work we are doing here. I recognise we all have our different strengths and areas of expertise but there is a point at which you have to wonder why someone with no wish to write wants to spend their time working on an online encyclopaedia. You certainly have to wonder what he thought it would achieve writing his ungrammatical little "warning" here of all places. --John (talk) 16:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I have to correct you slightly there John, my contempt is off the scale. Some people talk of an admin/non-admin divide, but more and more I've come to understand that's a false dichotomy. The real divide here is between content creators and those whose only interest is in policing the behaviour of others; whether or not those self-appointed policemen are administrators is irrelevant, although I expect that many of those who aren't aspire to those lofty heights. Malleus Fatuorum 16:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

We are largely on the same page (I think). (As well as being on the wrong page; if MF objects, I'll take this elsewhere:) I fully agree with the point about mutual respect. It is virtually impossible to accept criticism form editors you do not respect. However, I mildly disagree that one has to do content creation to earn respect. I think all editors should try, if only for the "walk in my shoes" reason, but, for example, if someone is skilled at creating templates, yet struggles with prose, by all means, stick to templates. Does that mean they are prohibited from having opinions and expressing them, with respect to civility issues? I do agree that Nobody Ent handled this situation far less than optimally, I disagree that Nobody Ent, in general, deserves contempt, even if mild.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

That would make sense if this were a template creation project, but last time I looked its aim was to write an encyclopedia. Malleus Fatuorum 16:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I have no respect. Whoever he is he came to my page to make false accusations. He should mind his own business and stop stirring up drama.J3Mrs (talk) 16:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The incident reminds me of one of my favourite jokes of all time, which I'll shorten, as it can go forever. A kid goes to the circus, where's there's a clown act. Part way through one of the clowns turns directly to the kid and asks him:

"Are you the front end of an ass?"

"No" says the kid.

"Are you the back end of an ass?"

Again the kid replies "No".

"Then you must be no end of an ass" says the clown, to thunderous applause.

The humiliating exchange makes a deep impression on the kid, who resolves to study logic, philosophy, disputation, and anything else that might help him to get the better of the clown. But despite all his efforts every year when the circus returns the story repeats itself. Many years later the kid has grown up and become a professor of logic at a prestigious university. He decides to go back to his home town next time the circus returns and face the clown for a final showdown. Sure enough the clown spots him again and asks his usual question:

"Are you the front end of an ass?"

"Fuck off clown" came the reply.

And that just about sums up my attitude. Malleus Fatuorum 16:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

File:Kowtow.jpg

• Nice one. It's an interesting point in the perennial meta-debate about "civility"; how should we respond when someone's behaviour or communication (more usually the combination of the two) evokes real contempt? In real life, I almost always try to just ignore it "like a fart on a bus", but every tenth time or so, I think it is ok to say "fuck off clown" instead. Am I way out of line with Wikipedia's standards? --John (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Personally I don't think so. But the community will have a billion different takes on it so you can pick one that suits, I guess. Intothatdarkness 17:09, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

One challenge is that there are so many editors, from so many backgrounds, that it is difficult to pint down the Wikipedia standard on this issue. I daresay there are literally thousands who agree, that in certain circumstances, "fuck off clown" is perfectly acceptable. I'll bet there are thousands of others who would counsel against ever using the phrase. And probably a fair number (myself among them), who agree it is warranted in some cases, but worry that many will use it when not warranted, and despairing of writing a set of rules defining when to and when not to, understand that it is easier to say, don't do that. Does MF know when to say it? Almost certainly. Does Randy form Boise? Probably not. So write me a coherent rule that allows MF to do it, but Randy gets a block. (As an aside. I worried I would regret joining this discussion, but the joke alone was worth it. More seriously, I'm fascinated by MF's nuance regarding the divide—not admin versus non-admin, but self-appointed policemen.) --SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

People have often claimed that I've got some kind of anti-admin agenda, but that's very far from the truth, just a shorthand way of saying I don't really understand what MF is saying, or I don't want to hear it. As for rules, there can be no rules to sanction comments taken out of context. To give one extreme example, it would be a criminal offence for me to order that someone be taken outside and hanged if that comment were not made at the conclusion of a murder trial in which I was the judge. Malleus Fatuorum 17:38, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• In full disclosure, I was greatly unimpressed with how Nobody Ent handled my requests here and here; if someone is to act as a metapedian, they should at least be held to high standards. To have someone who acts as a self-appointed guardian of our standards, without adding value otherwise, but who flippantly refers to their own cynical disclaimer when asked to correct an error, does tend to evoke contempt in me. --John (talk) 17:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
  • We have a lot of editors here who think they're the Guardian of something. I can take "support RfA per my [wikilink here] requirements" if it's someone who's been here since before Twinkle was invented, but every NPPer apparently must have a set of rules. And every other editor seems to want to weigh in on AN; it's bad enough already that ANI is flooded by wanna-be admins who chime in to confirm what's already clear in hopes of having their productive comments noted at the next RfA. I am less bothered these days by NE's comments (they have made some useful ones) than I was a year ago, but that's in part because I am no longer interesting in tracing discussions through edit histories.

    In general, yes, I'll take commentary from editors who've accomplished something, but some whippersnapper, like in the ban plump Jack discussion, not so much. I'm probably getting old. Speaking of old: I've been trying to help out closing old RfCs. That's a thankless job, and that's where we need some admins, not in fighting vandals. Drmies (talk) 04:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

    • Thank you Drmies for that statesmanlike comment. I must keep a look out for these useful comments you say you have seen NE make. --John (talk) 13:14, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

      Me too. Malleus Fatuorum 15:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

      [5] Nobody Ent 15:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, that was one. :) Drmies (talk) 15:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

  Hmmm. looks more like sweeping the dirt under the carpet to me. Why was Haldraker not sanctioned for that AN/I report alleging tag-teaming? Malleus Fatuorum 15:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• What do you classify as sanctions? They were criticized by Bish for the comment, which I would consider a mild sanction. Nobody Ent 19:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• What was the hurry to make a non-admin close? What was the benefit to Wikipedia in your doing so? Why do you spend so much of your time hanging around AN/I? If you are going to perform so many admin-like tasks, why not hold yourself to admin-like standards of accountability? --John (talk) 19:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe in reporting 3RR for ce edits (or most other edits), and I typically would let a revert by you stand on an article where I am not the major contributor. A lot of this is subjective. I am not quite sure what you were fixing for that "Phillips" reference in The Coral Island; the net effect was to revert one of my not-so-interesting ce edits. Churn and change (talk) 17:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're rabitting on about with vague threats of 3RR, but whatever it is go do it somewhere else. I do not expect to hear any more from you, either here or elsewhere. Malleus Fatuorum 18:34, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, following this edit, I looked into AutomaticStrikeout's RfA. I see you've made a total of 23 edits to the RfA, which is 10 more that even the candidate (link for ease). As I believe a number of these edits have been verging on disruption, I believe you have made your point on the candidate and I believe it is fairly clear from the comments that they are unlikely to pass, but rather get good feedback, I am enacting this remedy. Please do not participate further in this RfA. Should you believe I am involved in this case as I have already voted neutral on the RfA or for any other reason, I am willing to have this decision reviewed. Worm^TT(talk) 18:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

And I believe I don't give a damn what you believe, or for your veiled threats and stupid sanction. Now run along and play somewhere else. Malleus Fatuorum 18:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

This is inappropriate. Malleus has not edited there since 8:30, apart from stopping the move of the discussion to the talk page, in which he could not participate of course. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

No doubt it makes him feel powerful and important though, which is obviously the point. Malleus Fatuorum 19:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that, given his recent efforts at fairness in this RfA and its ANI discussion, WTT/David thought that you would be unusually receptive to his input. However, I think a private email suggesting not wrestling hogs---because pigs like to get dirty---would have been more effective.

Given that this RfA has been over for some time (in practice) and given the fact that the "paranoia" personal attack stood for half a day without complaint (and with apologetics at ANI), it really was not a good message.

Better that everybody chill out and do something more important, like pray for Obama. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Not having anything further to say about the candidate I had no intention of posting there again. But now that WTT's said that I can't .... Malleus Fatuorum 19:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if the irony of this situation has sunk into GiantSnowman yet? Malleus Fatuorum 22:08, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Consider the example of Ruth Norman and When Prophecy Fails. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I see the RfA has now been closed. WTT's ban saved the day! Malleus Fatuorum 22:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I've requested clarification on or an amendment of the arbcom remedy here. -— Isarra ༆ 23:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The ban was always a crappy and ill-considered idea, but good luck to you in your quest to have me topic banned from all RfAs as well. Shall I simply start voting like so many of the supporters do? "Support. Why not?", and then leave? I realise that any hint of dissent must be stamped out here in this best of all possible worlds, but don't you think it's getting just a teeny weeny bit ridiculous? Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Or that ban could be removed entirely; that'd work just as well. Some discussion is less relevant than other discussion, is all, and really doesn't belong on the page itself, so having a restriction forcing to be there is silly to say the least. -— Isarra ༆ 02:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm disgusted by the way discussion of your request is shaping up, but it was quite predictable. As was the stupidity of the original topic ban. Still, someone has to be punished, and I guess it's going to be me again. Malleus Fatuorum 04:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It is unfortunate, although your particular approach to responses isn't likely to make most folks any more sympathetic to your general position. -— Isarra ༆ 04:57, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Like I give a shit. I know what's going on here. Malleus Fatuorum 05:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You don't need a rectal thermometer to tell which way the wind blows. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Hey, it seems you have potential. Also, Beeblebrox is much better than me and I only just bested Bbb23. This is a fun tool to run, though it'd be more fun if it added expletives. Drmies (talk) 02:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

*LOL* Kiefer.Wolfowitz 02:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

If insults are needed, check out this: User:Darwinbish/insultspout

Hey, me too! 966 .... Tools don't take account of desires, though. Pesky (talk) 08:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

How fast can somebody earn a score of 666? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:01, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should use this for closing AFD and other discussions, to properly weight the value of the arguments. And I bested you all scoring over 1200 without the benefit of any "user rights" points, which alone is enough to cast doubt as to the utility of the tool. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• I have 1279... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:51, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

1339 for me. Sandy's score ... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Darn Ealdgyth! Jimbo has 488. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• But is that a testament for or against it's accuracy? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:58, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'd say for, I don't believe Jimbo would become an administrator under the current system. Ryan Vesey 15:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• I wonder how Jimbo really would do at RFA... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• He has enough groupies that I'm sure he would do fine. He also has enough nemesi (and the usual contrarians) to insure it would be a record setting event for drama. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:07, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• For every season... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:09, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• I was going to wish you good luck and say that I will see you after your block. I'm not a fan of April Fool's jokes around here, and in no way do I condone such activity, but I have to admit it would be interesting (sociologically speaking) to see what would happen if he put himself up on any regular day of the week. My gut says it would a very bipolar event, but ending in a sickening love fest, so I'm not inclined to take action to find out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:15, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I'm not going to do it... probably. There's enough acrimony at RFA right now, we don't need to create new ill-will. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I think my block count of -330 has at least temporarily made the prospect of RfA #3 even less likely than it was before. I'd resolved to wait until our Sun became a red giant, but now it looks like I'll have to wait until the heat death of the universe. Ah well. Malleus Fatuorum 02:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Take heart, Your Grace ;P Ideas are being mooted (OK, mainly by me, but someone better than I is considering it, too) to do some housekeeping work spring-cleaning a few block logs to separate the just from the unjust. There's very little use that I personally (and I suspect you, too) would actually make of being awarded The Most Noble Order of the Nadmin. If someone ever succeeded in forcing Nadminship upon me, the most I'd ever be likely to do would be to use the delete button for blatant copyvios, or possibly use it to edit through protection. I'm trustworthy on those ones, but I have no interest whatsoever in blocking people, closing XfDs, or all the multitudinous other chores at which Nadmins are supposed to excel. If you had the bit (OK, I know you don't want it!), what would you do with it? Pesky (talk) 08:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Same as you probably, very little. Malleus Fatuorum 13:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

There has been editing warring at today's RfA over a personal attack against you. There is a discussion at ANI. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Bury the rag deep in your face, now is the time for your tears. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

All opposition at RfA must be crushed, whatever the price. Malleus Fatuorum 15:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It really should not have been so hard to write, "I wrote poorly when I ascribed a psychiatric condition to MF, and I should have corrected it, especially when it was brought to my attention. Restoring it was inappropriate because of the appearance of a personal attack, which I regret, not having intended it."

Again, another lost opportunity for RfA reformers and administrators to show principle and even-handed enforcement of civility and NPA.

However ANI, apart from the apologetics for attacks on you, had its reasonable moments. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:42, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Aren't we up to one ANI report a day this week? Surely the assholes must soon get the message. Malleus Fatuorum 16:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's an interesting stat for those who blindly claim that I'm a malign influence at RfA. Apparently my vote agrees with the outcome 71% of the time,[6] not far behind the saintly Newyorkbrad's 73%.[7] Unlike Newyorkbrad though I do have the courage to vote oppose. Malleus Fatuorum 16:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

That tool shows me at 68%, although I'm actually at 83%, half supports, the rest split between oppose and neutrals (which are just opposes wrapped in moral support). It even showed I opposed myself. I obviously don't want to get rid of opposing votes, but I would by lying if I didn't say I think there needs to be more formality and structure. If done properly, it would only reduce the drama. I do get tired of the overly threaded comments where it quickly gets off topic, something you have seen happen to plenty of your comments. Obviously I don't want to get rid of opposing since I do it half the time, but I still want to see some changes. I just hope you don't think everyone that wants change has nefarious motives. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Not at all, quite the reverse in fact. I want to see change myself, radical change, but I've given up hope of ever seeing it. Malleus Fatuorum 17:28, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm at 80.6% with the herd, despite having the courage to be neutral sometimes, and oppose 22.7%. Johnbod (talk) 17:37, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not conducive to radical change I've discovered. Large, comprehensive changes will simply never happen. But I am active at chipping away at that problem, and many others, with an end goal in mind. The current system is drama filled and political enough that it is surely scaring off good content creators from running. Even small steps to improve the system would be better than none. No different than writing a good article, it takes a lot of small steps and fine tuning along the way. But you have to be willing to take incremental steps and let others warm up to the idea of change. I can tell that you (Malleus) and I aren't afraid of radical change, but most humans are, in all things. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Baah. (Is that what an English-speaking sheep says?) (Or: I'm remarkably good!) Drmies (talk) 18:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Nobody Ent not only closed the discussion just when it was getting interesting (i.e., the administrator was being criticized) but he also censored "by administrator GiantSnowman" from the header. I don't recall white-washing names from ANI reports occuring for non-administrators.

Giano commented some months ago about the quick-closings of any discussion of administrator misbehavior. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Kiefer - drop this. MF clearly doesn't give a damn, why are you so concerned? The AN discussion, both of us were informed we could have behaved better - you are creating drama (again) for no reason. "Administrator misbehavior" refers to mis-use of tools - something I didn't do. Yes I was criticised, but then so were you - if anything, you've come off worse than me. Move on. I have. GiantSnowman 18:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It's mandatory for commentators to blame both sides, but the truth is that you were the one who behaved badly, not me. Malleus Fatuorum 18:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Drop the insolent tone, tough guy. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Le sigh. I was (quite clearly) directing my comments at Kiefer. GiantSnowman 19:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

How do you get the sfn harvard notes to highlight the books for multiple authors in Cnapan Hotel?♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I've done the first one for you as an example. Malleus Fatuorum 22:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, problem solved, gracias.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

There are still a few other problems with the citations though, so I'll take another look. Malleus Fatuorum 22:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah ref=harv was missing on the last one, the others I think are OK now.♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:00, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Not quite; Balmer, Raphael & Raphael 2004, listed in the Bibliography, isn't used as a citation, so that's throwing up a harv error as well. You need to either delete it or move it to further reading. (Or of course use it as a source and cite it.) Malleus Fatuorum 23:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

PS. I'm not following this at all: "The hotel has been run by the Lloyds and Coopers since 1984; Judith Cooper and her daughter are the chief chefs. Who are the Lloyds? The infobox says the establishment is owned by Michael and Judith Cooper. And apart from the awkwardness of "chief chefs", my understanding is that chefs generally manage kitchens, they don't actually do much, if any, of the cooking. Malleus Fatuorum 23:19, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Strong objections to sfn notes at Wikipedia:Peer review/Joseph Grimaldi/archive1. "Not user friendly" apparently. Of course normal referencing so is...♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The word "idiotic" springs immediately to mind. Malleus Fatuorum 20:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I would like to ask for your opinion on a simple topic—no real work involved for you. I'm merely looking for your best advice.

I've been cleaning up the biographies of U.S. Olympic swimmers from the 1940s, '50s and '60s, slightly fewer than half of whom are women. Most of these women competed under their maiden names (before they were married), and those are the names by which they are most commonly known from their days of Olympic notability. Consequently, the maiden names are also typically the names used for the Wikipedia article titles. Virtually all of these women eventually married, some more than once, a small handful three or more times. Very few of them formally hyphenated their maiden and husbands' names.

My question is this: What is the best way to present the maiden and married names within the article? I have already added the married names to the persondata template for search purposes, but despite my experimentation, I have not been able to arrive at a formula for presenting the bolded married names in the lead, infobox or main body text which does not seem awkward. The MOS is not particularly helpful on point. Given your GA and FA background, I'm hoping you have some helpful advice to offer. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you give me an example of the kind of article you're talking about? Malleus Fatuorum 00:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Take a look at the linked women's articles in this template:

{{Footer USA Swimming 1964 Summer Olympics}}

Most of the articles are currently stubs or starts, and about a third of them are newly created. Several have more substance. All follow the same pattern of standardized infobox and sections. As the articles get fleshed out, more personal background is being added beyond the simple recounting of their Olympic and other international competition history. I believe this group from 1964 is a representative sample covering the other 300+ Olympic female swimmers spanning 1912–2012. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll take a look, but probably not until tomorrow, as it's late here now. The first rule is that the article has the title that the subject is best known by. So if their fame is that they competed in the Olympics, then the article should have the name they competed under. If on the other hand one of them had subsequently won a Nobel Prize under her married name that would change things. Malleus Fatuorum 01:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Agree with that. But how will you discover their (often multiple no doubt) married names, and what style they actually used at different points? Of the template you linked to, only Terri Stickles has a marriage noted. Johnbod (talk) 12:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Johnbod, most of the married names (probably two thirds) are available through the Olympic athlete profiles at Sports-Reference.com. Where I have independently confirmed the married names in news articles, alumni publications, media guides, etc., I have included them in the persondata templates. In most instances, however, we don't know how the subjects styled their names. For example, Terri Lee Stickles (maiden name) married a man with the surname of Strunck (second marriage). Did Stickles' new legal married name become

1. Terri Strunck;

2. Terri Lee Strunck;

3. Terri L. Strunck;

4. Terri S. Strunck;

5. Terri Stickles Strunck;

6. Terri Stickles-Strunck; or

7. Terri L. Stickles-Strunck?

And that list is not exhaustive; other variations are possible. Newspapers invariably hyphenate the last two names, and they are wrong in most cases (hyphenated married names are still the exception in the United States). I have found a handful of examples (e.g., Donna de Varona, Debbie Meyer) where the subject uses her maiden name for professional/public purposes, and uses her married name otherwise. Multiple marriages present a further complication. Stickles' first marriage was to an Olympic runner named Alvaro Mejia.

What I have done so far is to include the full maiden name in the lead, and to include the first name and married name(s) in the alternate name field of the persondata template. That way, at least the married names are searchable via most internet search engines. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to participate in my RfA. I hope that I will be able to improve based on the feedback I received and become a better editor. AutomaticStrikeout 02:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You're a decent editor as it is. God knows why you want to fuck with that and become an administrator. Malleus Fatuorum 02:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Probably the same reason for a lot of us: partly the ability to be helpful, partly vanity, partly thirst for power. Drmies (talk) 03:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I find that rather strange. For instance, just look at this talk page and see how helpful I am even to those who hate my guts and think I'm a narcissistic twat. And then look at the "power" I have when reviewing GA/FAs. As for vanity, well, least said soonest mended. Malleus Fatuorum 03:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thirst for power, huh? That was worthy of a spit-take. For every "power" granted by the bit, it has come with the shackles of expectations and obligations. I guess it is all in how it is used. If someone wants the bit purely for power, it is a very bad trade off. As Malleus points out, he has more real "power" than I do in some ways. At least I'm a smoother talker. Oh, I split that article in twain[8], so they will be complimentary. Created some stubs as well. Might need to rename them before mainspace. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant. And thanks for the review, its been one of the best I've had. I keep adding to all of my GA listed brewery articles: Boddingtons, John Smith's Brewery etc etc. On that point, could you direct me to the Edinburgh Jazz Festival reference? Finally, do you mind if I just delete the Chisholm factoid? Farrtj (talk) 23:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

We aim to please at GAN. I've answered your questions on your talk page. Malleus Fatuorum 23:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus I can see from the article history that you've had some input on this article (which is TFA) in the past. I have some concerns about it that I've begun to raise at the article talk page. If you have any expertise on the questions, I'd be grateful for your input. On the broader issue, I do wonder about showcasing older FAs on Main Page, but I'll take that up on Raul's talk page to see if my idea has any currency (could be a PEREN) before floating it at a project talk page. Cheers, --Dweller (talk) 10:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't recall ever doing any work on Sarah, but I'll take a look anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 14:55, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. To be honest, I didn't look too hard at diffs - you did some MOS compliance fixes, back in 2010. --Dweller (talk) 15:00, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

See Tomcat has nommed this for FAC without telling anybody... Article is short for an FA but I can honestly say I think its about as good as it could be given the lack of wide coverage on it. I do know of similar length/obscure topics which have passed at a similar length previously but I'm not convinced.I think its premature, at least without a discussion...♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Quick comment, that badly needs a pronunciation guide. When one has no idea how to pronounce what one is reading... Parrot of Doom 11:50, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The spelling actually looks Burmese.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I get the impression from the article that nobody knows how to pronounce Abuwtiyuw. Malleus Fatuorum 14:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Based on German I'd say Abu-teehu.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The article is certainly shorter than the typical FA, but as long as it's comprehensive that shouldn't be a problem. I always think it's a mistake though to rush from GAN to FAC. Malleus Fatuorum 14:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes that's the important thing, which it is. But I don't like rushing from GA to FA one bit. Anyway, I'll see how it pans out.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

All we can do now is to keep an eye on the nomination. Malleus Fatuorum 15:32, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-10-15/Op-ed --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:43, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Some good sensible ideas there, therefore obviously no chance of anything like that ever happening. I like the analogy of a switch from direct democracy to representative democracy. Malleus Fatuorum 14:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Missed the review. Replied and watchlisted now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

OK. I suspended the review because Volunteer Marek was doing some work on the article and we'd started to edit conflict. I'll get back to it later. Malleus Fatuorum 16:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I think I addressed all of the issues you raised, and did a general copy edit. If I missed something let me know. Thanks for doing the review. Volunteer Marek  22:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I respect that, enough that I've been quite vocal about it. I agree that his activity was inappropriate, but there are shades of gray here. Perhaps I'm sympathetic to admin candidates that aren't exceptional at writing prose but have other talents. In no way do I think your vote should be invalidated, or that your concerns are petty, I just think that all admin candidates are going to have weaknesses, holes in their skills, and that is an easy one to fix. But obviously I respect your opinion, enough to engage. It was just my opinion that your wording was a bit stronger than the actual circumstances. It is plagiarism, but it wasn't malicious, and to me, intent (as demonstrated by the immediate use of the actual source) matters. I'm saddened that the next person seemed to take so much offense, since I was discounting the concern, only qualifying it.

Had I thought you wouldn't have felt comfortable engaging in a comment or two, I would not have replied and put you in that position. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite happy to believe that the candidate didn't understand the seriousness of what he was doing by copy and pasting without in-text attribution, or even what plagiarism (as opposed to copyright) actually is, but neither of the articles the examples came from has yet been fixed. I'm not at all uncomfortable in engaging in a comment or two, but quite clearly if I do I'll simply find myself banned again. There are already moves afoot to have me banned from RfA altogether, as is obvious from the current ArbCom request, so no point in encouraging the baying masses. The bottom line for me though is that if administrators are going to be placed in authority over content creators then they ought to have some understanding of what it is that content creators actually do and have to put up with on a daily basis. This is after all a project to write an encyclopedia isn't it? Malleus Fatuorum 00:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with the principal of what you are saying. The reason I've tried to spend so much time on editing is to increase my skills at editing at the same time I increase my skills at catching sockpuppets and in mediating disputes. I'm not interested in being a one trick pony, or just a one dimensional admin here. Again, this is probably why I'm more tolerant of serious but innocent mistakes like his, as I am not under the illusion that I am a great author. If I can learn to be a better editor, surely he can. My big criteria is attitude. The kind of admin that won't be a drone or block for a simple issue of incivility. His editing problem is minor enough that it can be learned in an hour, but the demeanor is either in you, or it isn't. Disagreeing with you doesn't bother me in the least, we are two grown men, but I would hope you can understand my rationale, and maybe even consider it. I set the bar just as high as you do, but in different areas, areas that aren't easily learned. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm completely comfortable with agreeing to disagree with you. Was it David Hume who said that "truth springs from argument among friends"? But I've never been much interested in what people say they will or won't do in the future, I want to have seen them either do it or not. And right now I haven't even seen a proper recognition from the candidate that there's a problem, and that he needs to clean it up. Malleus Fatuorum 02:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As for saying what they will or won't do, you said the same thing at my RfA, but the last few months haven't been that bad, have they? ;) I even did the 3 months of CSD mentoring under Boing and DGG, even though it was completely unenforceable. I'm no better than he, so I am compelled to have a little faith. Sometimes it works out for the best, but only if you are willing to take reasonable risks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm nothing if not consistent. You've turned out just fine, but I've never been a great one for assuming anything. That so many are willing to assume good faith is what keeps conmen in business. Taking a "reasonable risk" at RfA only makes sense if there's a reasonable procedure in place to remove the bit, which there isn't, so the risk is too high. There's also the inherent immorality in potentially blocking someone for a "crime" that you've committed yourself (getting a few CSD taggings wrong, as in your case, was simply incompetence, not a "crime"), which is a fundamental flaw with much of Wikipedia's governance, not least with the ridiculous civility policy. Malleus Fatuorum 02:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As an aside, ArbCom needs a bloody good clear out. When are the next elections? Malleus Fatuorum 03:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I tried to create an easier way to desysop with WP:RAS and Worm's RFC that surrounded all of that, but the community response was tepid at best. Many people talk about change, but disappear when given a chance to make change, something I've never really understood. As for the hesitation, I completely understand, I just think some new blood is a needed. I don't know him, so I'm not invested, but he seems like a nice enough fellow. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm just too ignorant. (Plus I'm a little sleepy, haha.) I thought I was doing it correctly; thanks for cleaning it up. Hey, whenever you move on to your next project, you'll see that you have to do some cleanup there as well... Drmies (talk) 03:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not bothered about having to do a bit of janitorial work, even though "the community" has resolutely chosen not to provide me with a mop, or even a small dishcloth. Malleus Fatuorum 04:04, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

You can always just roll me back. Hey, what I'm currently reading really needs some quality improvement on Wikipedia: Under the Volcano. I'll leave the island be--I think we've gotten as much out of it as we can; more work would require bringing in a chunk of books and a broader discussion of modern readings of the Victorian age, since that's where the coverage is at these days. It's kind of a shame that I couldn't find more on the publishing history: I'm sure it's there in some monograph or other and I may still look for that later. Nice working with you again, sir: I'm throwing in the towel for the night. Please give my regards to Mrs. Malleus. Drmies (talk) 04:14, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Dr Malleus (she hates being called Mrs, I think that was her primary motivation for undertaking her PhD) is upstairs sleeping the sleep of the dead. We've done more than enough with the island, time to move on. As I said, I was never aiming for FA, just good enough. Malleus Fatuorum 04:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm reminded actually of a question her PhD supervisor asked me just before her viva. "How will you feel when she has a PhD and you don't?" I was a bit gobsmacked at first, so all I could say was that I'd be as pleased as Punch. But I've never felt any differently, as I've always had a thing for clever women. :-) Especially if they're tall, blonde, and it's love at first sight. Malleus Fatuorum 04:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I'm still (technically) married to someone tall, blonde, good-looking, with a PhD and ... and an interesting personality. And fifth of the WAGs with PhDs.--Shirt58 (talk) 06:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I hardly know what to say, except that counselling won't come cheap. Malleus Fatuorum 06:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

"And I only am escaped alone to tell thee." Wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. "Experience, though noon auctoritee" and so on.--Shirt58 (talk) 12:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought the NHS took care of that? Ha, here I am, white, middle-class, middle-aged, with a fucking Ph.D., a tenured professor, and my shoulder is fucked up--but I can't afford the co-payments for physical therapy. God bless America. Drmies (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

You should handle it the patriotic American way--taking lots and lots of OxyContin. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Is that the substance released when one stimulates the nipples for 7 minutes? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

lol, there actually have been cases of drug addicts accidentally stealing Oxytocin from pharmacies after misreading the label... Mark Arsten (talk) 19:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it helps with mules delivering heroin in condoms?

I forgot my Elmore Leonard and Justified: Hillbilly Heroin. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

And in news just in from upside-down land...--Shirt58 (talk) 15:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm thoroughly disgusted by what's going on at this kangaroo court, and I would urge any honest editors reading this page to offer an opinion. Malleus Fatuorum 06:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If a little kid calls you a "booger", do you get upset? Why do you care if Hersfold wonders whether you have the ability to collaborate? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it goes deeper than that. An arbitrator should be able to step back from his/her own prejudices and give an opinion based on reasoned arguments offered by other parties and be able to discount the spurious off-topic barrages not add to the overall pile in. J3Mrs (talk) 10:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Honest? Check. Reading this page? Check. You giving a rat's arse about my opinion? Eh... not so much. But here goes: you're pretty good at picking the horses, Malleus.[9] Just under 70% is very good. Say your little piece at the RfA's: and then back off of them. Less is more. Then no one can bitch at you for haranguing the candidates, from now on. Pretty simple, no? Good talk. Doc talk 10:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• The tool is whack. It has me voting oppose at my own RFA. I think Malleus has a bit higher percentage than 70. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course if we do express an opinion, it's immediately dismissed as more babbling from the "puling masses" or a "predictable pile-on by Malleus' posse." Oddly (or not, given the dynamics of this place), the people who make those comments are rarely chastised for them. I'll just repeat something I said earlier...I find Malleus serves quite well as an asshole detector. Those who come roaring out of the woodwork to bait, poke, or prod to get a reaction often seem to show similar poor behavior elsewhere (although in a more passive-aggressive form, perhaps). I've learned who to avoid based on their responses to Malleus. You can be abrasive at times, but so what? I tend to be more offended by the holier-than-thou pronouncements I've seen from some of the civility police and admins around here. Intothatdarkness 14:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sadly, Black Kite seems to have retired.

TParis has taken a leave of absence, following an editor (not blocked) musing about his murder, aloud.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Losing BK is a blow, but you're wrong twice about TParis; he's back now, and the editor musing about his murder was blocked immediately, and is still blocked now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. He is not banned. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

True, but banning is a silly social game we play here. It means little. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:53, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Banning may well result in socking. However, to keep TParis, I would have banned the fellow, and dealt with the socks as apparent. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The back-and-forth at the request is dragging the whole thing off-topic from the original intent, which heats everyone up = Not A Good Thing^TM. My suggestion, as an AC Clerk, is to take a step back, relax, and use wordings that get your point across while being civil. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 10:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Penwhale, you only gave a reminder to Malleus, here, following up on a more finger-poking whine at the page.

Nobody cares what you think, because you haven't had the decency to admonish ArbComers from straying off topic.

Go away.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The request has never been on topic and still isn't. You need to be issuing your "friendly reminders" to the arbitrators, if you have the courage and integrity to do so. Malleus Fatuorum 14:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• I looked through your posts, and found that there were veiled threats.
  • What are you going to do to SirFozzie?
  • Regardless of what happened in the original RFA situation (which I have read and concluded that threaded conversation went on a bit more than I'm used to seeing), stuff like this is never good.
• You wouldn't curse at a grand jury (it's a bad comparison, I know, but bear with me) in a court case, so why would you ever make the above statement? Clerks were, in fact, instructed to remove your PA/baseless accusations; I merely prefer you to look at your comments again and tone them down a little.
• And yes - there are more than 1 Arbitrators trying to grasp the core of the issue. The back-and-forth comments, however, do not help, and I have already mentioned that to the whole AC. Please help me help you help everyone. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 15:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

  I would indeed curse at a grand jury if it behaved in the way this ArbCom is behaving; only an obsequious coward wouldn't. Malleus Fatuorum 15:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Of course, but grand jury are only human, and who's to say whether they won't get affected by those words in their deliberations...? - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 20:47, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

  Isn't there also a judge present with the grand jury? Whose job is partly to prevent the sort of abuse that we see so often from the arbitrators, as in this case? And to guide them in the law and due process? Which would alleviate the need for me to say anything to the grand jury? Where's the ArbCom equivalent of the judge? ArbCom's not a pseudo-legal process, it's a dunking. Malleus Fatuorum 22:47, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hey, I never said I was good with the whole legal system (I am not even a US Citizen at that...) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 01:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus! I'm wondering why it is that you get to put comments on Laura's talk page, as you did at that QPQ barnstarring, but mine are wiped out within minutes. Not fair. One looks to her, as vice president of WMAu, for leadership and examples of best-practice editing. This is what I went in search of, to be rebutted. :-( Tony (talk) 10:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Because us Poms are better?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:41, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
• Because you reverted a user's talk page twice without reading their edit reasons?

If someone finds you "difficult" to deal with, or tolerate, then 'best-practice editing' is to direct you to a more-public page such as one where remarks may be handled by a wider audience. --Brian McNeil /^talk 11:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Brian, are you still at Wikinews? Hope you're not offended I didn't take up your invitations at LinkedIn and Facebook. Tony (talk) 12:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If I were looking for examples of leadership and best-practice editing Laura's talk page wouldn't be a venue that sprang immediately to mind, particularly as she's got a massive blind spot where DYK is concerned. What's WMAu? Malleus Fatuorum 14:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• WikiMedia Australia. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

  Ah, of course. Thanks. Malleus Fatuorum 14:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I have posted a motion regarding you at the Clarifications and Amendment discussion. SirFozzie (talk) 15:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Really? Now let me guess what that might be ... nothing to do with the clarification requested I'll wager. Malleus Fatuorum 15:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Incredible, just incredible. This place has become a madhouse. I have no wish to hang around and give you and your colleagues the pleasure of ejecting me, so this is the end of the road for Malleus Fatuorum. Malleus Fatuorum 16:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

So much for staying on topic, SirFozzie.

You heap off-topic abuse on Malleus, and then move to ban him when he responds. You should resign, because you have been behaving despicably~, but consistently towards Malleus for months.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I will be curious to see who becomes the flavor of the month for this kind of thing should Malleus actually follow through this time and leave the project. Intothatdarkness 16:38, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

For comparison, NYB has made some valid points, although I wish he would also note that the attackers of Malleus have not been a random sample, and that they need to take responsibility for their behavior too. Nobody imagines NYB behaving in such a two-faced manner.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I did not heap "off-topic" abuse on Malleus, Kiefer, I told him in the simplest terms to quit personally attacking others, which led to Malleus passionately defending his right to call other editors "dishonest fuckers" and twats. As I stated, sure he can do that, but there are consequences for these violations of Wikipedia policies. The ban motion is one of those consequences. SirFozzie (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sir Fozzie/Hersfold,

Let me help you with your lack of imagination. Read the RfA discussion and the ANI discussion where "editors" explained that there was no problem with labeling Malleus as paranoid, and then read your and your colleagues' discussions at ArbCom and here. Look in the mirror. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't put it better than Anthony did here. Sir Fozzie, I used to have a lot of respect for you, but this is now a new low in the disgrace that ArbCom has become. Malleus is worth twenty of you. You (plural) disgust me with your petty pencil-sharpening bureaucrat's wankery. --John (talk) 18:41, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiments and I, too, am considering whether or not to jack it in. I won't be missed but I didn't sign up to watch a kangaroo court or arbs proposoing motions on subjects that were not referred to them by the community. I predict heightened aggravation at the next arbcom elections, even if this ridiculous motion is rescinded. - Sitush (talk) 19:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

+1, although from me it's purely symbolic at this stage. Fozzie, what has happened to you? I have no opinion on the case itself—I haven't followed the ins and outs, and I can certainly imagine it possible that Malleus's behaviour at RFA may have caused problems—but unilaterally inserting a motion into an Arbcom decision, which wasn't requested by any of the initial parties, in order to ban an editor with whom you have a well-documented and long-standing personal grudge? The Fozzie I remember would have been the first to condemn this; your motion is the kind of policy-over-common-sense chest-beating I'd expect from the Arbcom of 2005, not the Arbcom of 2012. – iridescent 19:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Iridescent, as I say below, I don't want to ban Malleus. But he's been given every opportunity to comply with Wikipedia's norms and policies to not call other people "dishonest twats" and the like. I've NEVER been for that right. I've been intemperate, sure. I've said plenty of bad things about people. But I've moderated my behavior when other people called me on it. I made an effort to work within Wikipedia's norms, proceedures and policies. Malleus has made no such effort. Instead, he's proud of his ability to refer to other people in such terms. If Malleus made an honest effort to dampen down the personal attacks, I'd fall over myself to drop the motion. I've made extraordinary efforts to NOT ban people (see the RF discussion, where I actively looked for a way to keep another long term editor around, when the easier thing would be to just say "To hell with it" and go with the ban that was ALREADY PASSING. I've gone the extra mile again below.. If Malleus would be willing to even TRY, I'd propose giving him extra leeway.. but he sees nothing wrong with his behavior and his response is to retire rather then to comply. Like Brad, I find this very sad, but if he's not willing to go to the effort of complying, then I'm sorry, this is how things need to be. SirFozzie (talk) 19:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

SirFozzie, you should read the exchange that lead to "dishonest twat" and you'll see that it was used in the right place at the right time. There is no reason to make nice to that sort of comment. You're banning Malleus for responding to a personal attack with an expletive? Which world do you live in. --regentspark (comment) 23:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposing a motion to ban when you don't want to ban is an odd form of logic, regardless of your subsequent explanations. - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This is not "how things need to be", SirFozzie. The one person who can stop this right now is the instigator, you. Otherwise you will be plunging Wikipedia into a chilling and destructive abyss. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Spot on, Epipelagic, Or, speaking as a Mancunian myself, "Too fucking right." ;) Sitush (talk) 20:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Could you edit your comment to remove the implication that I am accused of plagiarism? I think you have me confused with QuiteUnusual. I think you mistook what I was saying anyway, I think what Unusual did was copyright infringement on the non-public domain sources, I was rebutting Dennis Brown's assertion that it wasn't copyright infringement, but merely some kind of issue of editing style. I was asked about our exchange on my RfA and there's a fairly large expansion of my rationale there if you want to read it. Gigs (talk) 18:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I am probably guilty of the same mistake. My apologies, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, heh, your support comment makes more sense now. No problems. Gigs (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I fixed it. My cognition doesn't agree with lack of sleep and constant interruptions. I also blended together Arbcommers, with greater justification. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Same as KW, my apologies Gigs. I've struck my comment. Malleus Fatuorum 22:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Gigs (talk) 23:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I don't want to ban you. Honestly, I don't. If you honestly say something like, "I disagree, but I will try to moderate my intemperate attacks in the future. I just ask for some leeway, as this will be difficult", then I'd rescind the ban motion right now. But you seem to believe that there's nothing wrong with the comments you've made, and that you have a right and duty to refer to people in such terms whenever you see fit. I disagree. The pillars of Wikipedia disagree. I am extending this olive branch one more time. You have options here. Try to moderate your behavior and continue the good work you've done here, or continue down this path, and we all know how this will end. SirFozzie (talk) 19:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

SirFozzie,

This is a start, but it does not deal with the incivility towards Malleus. The problem is that you all are ignoring the attacks, including "paranoia" and MONGO's obsessive hounding. Why does Malleus have to put up with this? Why don't you do anything?

But I think that if you consider your tone, your olive branch is not an olive branch. It is more of a birch branch to spank him.

Put yourself in his shoes.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Your comments suggest that Malleus's sin is that he has voiced contempt for the uneven administration of civility and for the infantilization demanded by some. Administrators called him paranoid and got away with it. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I think any right-minded person would be offended by this post. I know what my reaction to it would be, if you'd made it on my talk page. Parrot of Doom 19:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Kiefer, I disagree with a lot of people here on Wikipedia, but the proper response is not fighting fire with fire. In my first conflict on Wikipedia, I ran into a person who turned out to be one of the more active sockpuppet-using vandals on Wikipedia. During that discussion, I lost my temper, and told that person exactly what I thought of them, and I got called on it via the administrator who was trying to mediate that. They told me something that I've kept in the back of my mind ever since. "By lowering yourself to their level, you're doing what they want you to. They want you to fight at their level because they can't win on the merits. They want you to lose your temper so that the point you're trying to make is lost in the noise." I learned that lesson, and try my hardest to apply that every day in my roles as an editor, administrator and in the last 2.75 years as an Arbitrator. The correct response to such things isn't to go an eye for an eye, that just leaves everyone without depth perception. Being reasonable is even more important when other people are being unreasonable, because most times, onlookers can figure out who's got the right of any argument. Malleus's behavior (and his defense of his behavior) is exactly that. It allows OTHER people to seem reasonable and to point out Malleus's behavior, rather then the issue Malleus would like others to look at. And as I keep saying, I don't want to ban him. Malleus does a lot of good for the project. But he's gotta meet us halfway, you know? He's got to show that HE Can be the reasonable one in discussions. SirFozzie (talk) 19:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus responds well to kindness and responds in kind to attacks and fairly to unfairness. He and Dr. Blofeld had a blow up, but both made peace the next day, last week. He helped Lecen last week. Where were the administrators and ArbCommers defending him or helping to make peace at the recent RfAs? You guys never miss an opportunity to fail to demonstrate fairness. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

1. Malleus says "I recognize that some comments I make, while acceptable banter in Manchester can be seen as rudeness in some other places, and if anyone makes a reasonable request to avoid using a particular phrase I'll do so, provided there's a synonym that has the same meaning but won't cause the same offence".
2. Those who bait Malleus (as opposed to those who have legitimate disagreements with him) are warned not to interact with him in any way, unless unavoidable; if there is any dispute as to what constitutes "unavoidable" any admin can refer the matter to Arbcom who will issue an ad hoc ruling as to what constitutes "baiting". ("Admin" to act as a natural choke on the number of people referring disputes, rather than as some kind of super-status—any other arbitrary group would do just as well.) If Arbcom rule that the comments are baiting, the editor in question is given an only warning, which covers the next 14 days, to desist from further interaction. If Arbcom rule that the comments are legitimate, Malleus is given an only warning, which covers the next 14 days, to desist from any comment would could reasonably be considered rude.
3. If a given editor repeatedly posts comments which are ruled to be "baiting" (three in six months?) they are banned from any interaction with Malleus for as long as Malleus refrains from any interaction with them.

Really, it's not that hard to resolve these things without either blocks-all-round or Mattisse-style micro-mentoring plans. Fozzie, you're supposed to be the Arbitration Committee, not the Blocking Committee. Mogism (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Honestly Mogism, if Malleus would meet us halfway and stop fighting fire with napalm, it's possible. If Malleus feels like other people are baiting him, the correct method isn't to call people by the objectionable terms he's used repeatedly in this and other discussion, but to ask an administrator to step in and mediate (or to deal with itself), we'd be done and dusted, but instead, he tells us that he'd be a coward if he DIDN'T refer to people by those terms... It may not seem like it, but I'm the moderate here. I don't want Malleus gone permanently.. there are those who want an indefinite ban, meaning Malleus would have to ASK to come back. I don't want that. I really don't. Even if this ban passes, and Malleus comes back in six months and shows that he's working on how he interacts with people he disagrees with, I'd be willing to give extra leeway if there are occasional (note: Occasional) slippages. I know full well how hard it is to rein in your temper when you want to tell another editor exactly what you think of them. But there has to be some give here. It's NOT right to call other editors the things Malleus has.. and he'd prefer to retire (and/or be banned) then to modify the way he deals with others. SirFozzie (talk) 19:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

@SirFozzie---And the "paranoia" personal attacks, and its acceptance at ANI (pre WTT)? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Re to Fozzie and Kiefer - I'm trying to suggest a way where "everyone gets something", that hopefully resolves the problem but doesn't lose any writers, on either side, and doesn't take too much time to enforce. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but at least you tried to come up with a solution rather than just picking one side of the dispute and blocking the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mogism (talk • contribs)

Whether it's a six-month ban or indefinite makes absolutely no difference, as the example of Ottava showed. And anyone who seriously believes that in six months time I'd be going cap in hand to ArbCom to be allowed back really does need to have their bumps felt. Urgently. Malleus Fatuorum 22:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

At Wikimedia Medicine we'll be working with subject-matter experts, helping them write GA and FA quality medical articles, and then using Translators Without Borders to translate them into third world languages. We'll need high quality editors to work with the professors, coaching them in the Wiki way. I was wondering if you might be interested in helping out there once we're up and running. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to help, but it doesn't really look like I'm going to be around for much longer. My advice to your professors would be to steer well clear of Wikipedia until a few fundamental things are sorted out, say by the middle of the next century at the current rate of progress. Malleus Fatuorum 22:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The editing will probably be happening on Meta. They'll be WM:MED articles, not en.WP articles. If en. or de. or ethiopia. want to import them, that'll be up to them. I'll keep you posted here. We're months away yet. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, probably OK then. Malleus Fatuorum 01:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You've got a bit on your plate right now - hopefully a ploughman's lunch - but I thought I might ask your opinion on something. WM:MED's mission is

To make clear, reliable, comprehensive, up-to-date educational resources and information in the biomedical and related social sciences freely available to all people in the language of their choice.

Reliable. Presently on Wikipedia, though our med articles are often impressive, they are not reliable, because of the "anyone can edit" model. So we at WM:MED have set a goal that is incompatible with the current practice at Wikipedia.

The first model at WM:MED that I'll be proposing is scholarly peer review of our (WM:MED's) articles. That is: written by topic experts aided by Wikimedians, and then reviewed/revised by three independent topic experts, and experienced GA/FA reviewers. We publish (at WM:MED, in many languages) the finished, dated, locked article, and anyone - en.WP, de.WP, ethiopia.WP - can use it as they wish.

But I would like the top Google result (usually en.WP in English searches) to be reliable. I think "reliable" is something Wikipedia should and can achieve, at least for its medical content. I'd like to see a link, at the top of every Wikipedia med article (that has passed scholarly peer review) to the peer-reviewed version. Something like

This article was reviewed/updated by three independent topic experts on 20 October 2012. To read that version of the article, click here.

What do you think, and do you think it would ever fly at en.WP? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It's bad enough that RfA dwellers miscite WP:Point because they are upset that somebody exhibits a counter-example to their falsehood, but AGK (at the latest lynching attempt)?

Shouldn't such incompetence result in immediate disqualification or a recall? (Apart from the obvious concerns about dishonesty, etc.)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello,

do you think that Themes in Fyodor Dostoyevsky's writings is too long for the main article or was the split a good idea? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 09:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Tomcat or whatever your name is, I think this is a very very inappropriate request at this time. Furthermore, what needs to be done is to really listen to good advice given to you during the peer review, on the talk page, during the two or three GA nominations. The peer review in particular had attention from a number of editors experienced in writing literature articles and content experts; yet instead, even now at this extremely inappropriate time, you're still shopping for opinions. That in my book is incivility. Truthkeeper (talk) 13:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Adding, furthermore, I think you should ask that question of one the people who has already put substantial time into reviewing the page. In the end, the issue is about how to present the best content to our readers, and whether you want to hear it or not, some issues remain unresolved at this time. But please leave Malleus alone. Truthkeeper (talk) 13:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for a first oppose against a main stream, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Didn't do him much good though. Perhaps I ought to have supported, then everyone who hates my guts might have voted to oppose the ban in the belief that they were in some way getting their own back on me. Malleus Fatuorum 22:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I have the feeling he got what he wanted. In a Munich museum, I watched a film last Monday, artists Jean Tinguely and his wife Niki de Saint Phalle buying large pieces of everyday stuff in Las Vegas supermarkets and on junkyards, placing it in the desert and make it transform in carefully planned consecutive explosions, Study for an End of the World No. 2 (1962) ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Kow-tows. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Terima kasih ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:40, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus, fwiw, I'm only coming up to speed on this. Have been fighting my own battles in the past two days (ironically because of copyright issues) and haven't been keeping up. Just finished work across the ocean and find this! I missed the discussion to ban Jack too because I don't have the drama boards on watch - but even though it's fairly well known that he and I aren't ardent admirer's of each other - I didn't like seeing a community ban enacted so swiftly. My advice to you, and you can tell me to fuck off (I can take it!), is to sit tight, watch what the community has to say, and try very hard not to burn any bridges tonight. The night is still young in America and not even night on the other side of the world. This is going way way to fast in my view. Again take this for whatever it's worth. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice TK, I'll think on it. I'm completely bemused at how a simple request for clarification turned so quickly into yet another civility witch hunt. As far as I'm concerned there's only one explanation: Wikipedia's vendetta culture. Malleus Fatuorum 23:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, as we've said in the past, writing is hard. This is easier and more fun than slogging in the trenches spitting out content. I think that's what it's all about. Editors forget why there here (if they ever knew in the first place) and when any kind of drama rears its head, it's so much easier to jump on that than actually do article work. I'm always impressed by how much you manage to do despite all the drama, and let's be honest, the drama is sometimes a way of blowing off steam while taking a break from the trenches. I only wish more people were in the trenches creating content for our readers. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. What I find ironic about this affair is that any honest person who compared what I've done in the last week or so to what those who want me banned have done would not be calling me a "net negative" to the project, yet one arbitrator has chosen to do so. Not good. Malleus Fatuorum 23:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Look, I'll be brutally honest because I know you value honesty. I think I noticed that the same arb said a similar thing about Jack Merridew who was also very productive, but in a different fashion. But, and this is a big but. I was at the receiving end of a lot of shit from Jack for almost a year and frankly didn't like it. That doesn't mean I believe he should have been site banned, but I would have liked him to tone it down a bit. Some people are thin-skinned, some people like to pile on, some people are simply jealous. They don't want to hear the truth. They don't want it shoved into their faces. That's why you run into trouble. I'd suggest thinking about Brad's advice - my sense is that it's meant sincerely. We all know that you're a positive, but my advice to you would be to stop trying to fix RfA. I unwatched there years ago. It's a lost cause. Okay, off my soapbox. Suppertime for me. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:53, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't doubt that Brad's advice is meant sincerely, and I'm seriously considering what he's said. As for Jack, well, I didn't always get on with him myself, but I don't see that as any kind of reason to block someone, just because you don't like them. He ought to have stuck to his single account promise, but for whatever reason chose not to, so I guess the outcome was inevitable. As for RfA, I'm not allowed to try fixing it any more, so all I can do is to try and stem the rot by voting, which is apparently not allowed except if you're voting support. Enjoy your supper. Malleus Fatuorum 00:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of this out of process event, and have said as much. My opinion plus $2 will get you a cup of coffee, however. It does look like Brad is sincere and I'm glad to see it didn't turn into a clean sweep. You know how I feel about civility so I won't rehash it, but I do hope that you and Brad can find common ground and we can put this behind us and just move forward. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Malleus, I'll make a deal with you. You try to rein yourself in and when you want to vent please use my page to vent all you want. God knows I get enough trolling there, and I like you and would be happy to have you vent. You can dump all the bad language on me that you want, but keep it away from the people at RfA. Would you agree to this? All I care about is putting good content on the internet, and that's what you do best. Truthkeeper (talk) 03:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
• Adding: I have to log out. I've had a long day working, ate supper late, and am tired. Please consider my offer. Truthkeeper (talk) 03:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  I will, but the RfA thing was just a ruse. Some people don't like to see authority challenged. I thank you for your offer, and it reminds me that even though I'm often accused of scaring off good editors, especially scarce female resources such as yourself, it just never happens. The only editors I open fire on are arseholes, regardless of gender. Malleus Fatuorum 03:42, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  Yeah, but you're shooting yourself, well I was going to say in the foot, but in this case might be a little worse than that. Anyway, I'm off. Take care. I might send email at some point. Or you to me. It's finally enabled again, after a long time. I have relatives in Warrington, so the next time I'm over might meet in a pub or something? Truthkeeper (talk) 03:46, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

New day, I wanted to add to the above, but can as well put it here: you pull a little trigger, use a four-letter word or stage an edit war on Civility: facts and contributions are ignored. What sort of "community" are we? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I've proposed that ArbCom members be removed at the next election by a plurality.

I've further proposed the removal of JClemens, AGK, and Hersfeld, as soon as the votes are counted. This would limit the damage done by them in 2012. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:26, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I've made a template you may find useful:

Yomangani^talk 22:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Nice work, needs bigger font in second line... at least for the three key words, which those in posession of said condition may not otherwise notice. Montanabw^(talk) 05:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

... is living well, they say. As you will probably still want an outlet for your muse, please note that the OED is looking for volunteers to help them with the history of such phrases. See OED appeals, where they currently want to know more about the "blue-arsed fly", for example. As another opportunity, I recently noticed that an old friend of mine is one of the top reviewers on Amazon. If you are sent down for six months, as currently seems likely, please investigate such opportunities and then report back to tell us how feisty volunteers are managed in these other places. Warden (talk) 09:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I don't want to see you banned, nor do I want you to retire, although of course the latter is your choice.

But there are a lot of editors, obviously including several arbitrators, who are concerned at how you sometimes address fellow editors on-wiki. It's not any one comment or set of comments; it's a persistent thing, and even if this wasn't your intent, it has become repeatedly disruptive. You weren't just chosen at random to be the subject of the motion.

Anyone can lose his or her temper, in the heat of a content dispute or a noticeboard dispute or an RfA or whatever, and say something that shouldn't have been said. Anyone can even deliberately decide, once in a blue moon, that it is best to use unusually charged, pungent language. But the whole point of such language is to evince unusually great anger or hostility or frustration. What's the point of doing it every day?

The problem is not that you have called one or two people (I'm deliberately exaggerating this for effect) "sanctimonious dishonest hypocritical fucking cunty-twats." It's that it feels as if you regularly call people "sanctimonious dishonest hypocritical fucking cunty-twats", and that you think it's a good thing to call some people "sanctimonious dishonest hypocritical fucking cunty-twats", and that if you get into a controversy tomorrow you're as likely as not to call someone else a sanctimonious dishonest hypocritical fucking cunty-twat.

Of course the frustrating thing is that you'll do that right in the midst of helping a newcomer who's trying to figure out an editing problem, reviewing a few GA nominations, and putting in a couple of hours polishing your next FA.

I have worked with my fellow arbitrators for a long time, and I am confident they don't really want to ban you. (No one should ever want to ban anyone from contributing to "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"; bans are a last resort, though it's always a judgment call when it's necessary to employ that last resort, lest retaining one editor cost us five others.) I think what the arbitrators voting for the motion want, as the proposer has already said, is for you to say you'll make some effort to change your behavior. Not to become Caspar Milquetoast, and not to parrot some imaginary party line (as if we all agreed with each other about everything anyway), and not to change your views about who should or shouldn't become an administrator (although you're still wrong about "immigrated to" and Jeremy Lin).

Just to tone it down a notch already. Or n notches, for some positive value of n. If you agree to do this, maybe I can open a thread in the Civility RfC to quantify n. (I vote for pi-squared-over-six, which is a very cool number. But I digress.)

The civility policy is actually very simple: Editors are expected to be reasonably courteous to each other. There's a good reason this is a policy, though it's obviously not the only policy there is. Do you think it should be a policy? Do you think you've made even a minimal effort to adhere to it? Are you willing to try?

I can readily imagine a Wikipedia in which Malleus Faturoum accomplishes everything he wants to, while softening the sharp edges and incendiary rhetoric that have brought things to where they are now. Can you? Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post this, I know you're a busy person. Let me think about what you've said and get back to you. Malleus Fatuorum 23:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I had considered that your thoughtful comments might provide the basis for a mutually agreeable way forwards, until I saw the comments made by your fellow arbitrator Jclemens. I no longer think that anything I say will make any difference. Malleus Fatuorum 03:11, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

JClemens is not Brad. He's not myself. He's one arb of 13 on this motion. I have told him on that thread that he's wrong, that you ARE a Wikipedian (even if we do go through with this), and that you've done a LOT for Wikipedia. I will say this, as I said above, I will withdraw the motion completely, no "zero tolerance", none of that stuff, if you meet us halfway. Just make an effort as Brad says. SirFozzie (talk) 03:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

As soon as I saw Jclemens' comment, I responded to it in my statement on the arbitration page. Several other people have indicated that they also disagree with Jclemens' formulation, and I don't see anyone else rushing to embrace it. It's late and I need to call it a night now, but I hope you'll continue to think about the best way forward for everyone. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I have enough words to be excoriatingly brutal without ever using "fuck", "cunt", or "twat", but my impatience sometimes gets the better of me, just the way I'm wired. What else can I say? If you don't want me here then fine, but what is it exactly that you want me to promise not to do in the future? Tell the truth? Malleus Fatuorum 03:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• (e.c.) Malleus, consider me your friend. We go back a long way, even though I'm not often around the FAC forum and other venues where you commonly edit. I want to endorse exactly what SirFozzie posted (mmm, he's a talented arb, by which I mean he shows utter reasonableness and explains things very well. Jclemens, in my view, tends to be a bit hasty, but has other good attributes in his role—don't take what he says personally.)

  I want to appeal to you on the basis of two considerations. First, using aggressive obscenities damages the milieu by suggesting to other editors that it's fine; in a sense, there's a danger of normalising it over time. Second, I quaver at the reaction of many female editors, who are on the whole more likely to take private offence and as we already know favour more strongly than males a harmonious environment; we face a desperate problem in the 90–10 gender split.

  πIt's all about context; few people—women, newbies, even the most uppity, sexually repressed person—would fail to enjoy a good joke involving aggressive obscenities (preferably off-wiki, away from FoxNews's prying eyes). But that is not usually the context when you use them, or at least it's not clear that you mean no harm. This "just the way I'm wired" claim is fair on one level, but you're skilful and insightful enough, aren't you, to see that different linguistic registers require different wordings?

  I haven't read the arb-case text; but please consider making a pledge to avoid immoderate language. You're too valuable for us to lose, and you'd garner significant respect for making such a pledge. Maybe the arbs might be swayed by it, too. Please remember, also, that on a wiki, ANI and arbcom are not about truth or justice, but about keeping the game afloat. Tony (talk) 03:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  Tony said it so much better than I would have, word for word. - Dank (push to talk) 03:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) We've agreed and disagreed in the past Tony, but I've never thought of you as anything other than a friend here, or at least not a sworn enemy. As for female editors swooning at the sight of an inappropriate word, that's not been my experience at all. There's a fair few female editors who post here, probably most of whom I've collaborated with on articles, and none them has complained about my language or attitude. So to be insulted in the way I was by Jclemens leaves a pretty bad taste in the mouth. What kind of pledge would you like to see me make? "I promise in the future to be more respectful to obvious arseholes"? It would stick in my craw. Malleus Fatuorum 04:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Malleus, it's both the feelings of those to whom the epithets are directed and the reactions of onlookers who don't comment. So you don't always know. It should be possible to get your point across without using negatives at all (something I haven't always achieved, but I do try). On a wiki, it's much more effective to level with someone you disagree with by using plain, clear, depersonalised wording; I've seen you do it, what's more. And it tends to minimise the risk that the discourse will spiral. A pledge would be to do nothing less than that, and would probably explicitly state that you'll completely avoid obscenities, profanities, sexual terms, and negative slang items that refer to people, unless those terms are themselves the subject of discussion to improve an article. Simple! Tony (talk) 04:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

    The voting shows that it no longer makes any difference what you or I say or think. So it's ta-ta. Malleus Fatuorum 04:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

    • As of now the vote is still pending...Modernist (talk) 04:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
    • No, not yet. SirFozzie struck his vote. Please consider my offer - if you have to use language that's considered inappropriate please use me as a foil instead and do it on my talk page. Limit it to a single page. Truthkeeper (talk) 04:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
      • Malleus, as I've said, there's no reason for someone of your proven ability to stoop to making such attacks. You do things with content I can't. (I have 2 DYK's. That's about it.) There's got to be a way for someone with your ability to get across your disagreements without stooping to such attacks. As for the motion I've struck my vote so we can explore this discussion freely. All you have to do is say something like I said above. That you will try to moderate such behavior (you can even say "This will be difficult, so please grant me a bit of leeway" so people won't be looking to jump down your throat if you do occasionally slip, and my strike becomes an oppose, and I will work in my discussions with the arbs to prevent the motion from passing. That's all. SirFozzie (talk) 04:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

        I had thought that Newyorkbrad's approach above was an attempt on behalf on the committee to reach some some kind of acceptable compromise. I now see that I was wrong, minds had already been made up. Malleus Fatuorum 04:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

        Malleus, please remember that the Arbitration Committee is made up of individuals; believe me, we have a hard enough time agreeing on simple things, let alone complex issues like this one, and we certainly don't all think in lock step, as should be plain to see on a pretty regular basis. Nothing passes until there has been an unchanged majority for at least 24 hours; keep in mind that several arbitrators voted before the above discussion was initiated by Newyorkbrad (and thus could reconsider), while others of us have elected to hold off on voting awaiting the outcome of this discussion. I do urge you to carefully consider what arbitrators, and many of your colleagues, have said here. Risker (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

        I see the same "ban him, he's a witch" names there as I've seen in other ArbCom proceedings, but I'm particularly disturbed that this case spiralled so quickly out of control from a simple request for clarification to the witch hunt it became. Malleus Fatuorum 05:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

        I too was rather surprised to see this move so quickly. It was just over 24 hours ago that you were being asked to be more temperate in your comments on the clarification page.

        It's the wee hours of the morning for you (heck, it's the wee hours of the morning for me and we're 5 time zones apart), and historically this has been the period where you've had the greatest challenges in maintaining decorum, so I don't want to press you for any responses now. I do urge you to give some thought to the postings of those whom you respect here (and hopefully the arbitrators who have posted here as well, if one or more of us don't fall into the first category), but more importantly, take care of the person behind the Malleus moniker first and get some rest. Risker (talk) 05:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, please listen to Tony. It is not that you must in the future "be more respectful to obvious arseholes". It is simply a matter of expressing yourself with "plain, clear, depersonalised wording" when you are in contention. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus: You don't know me. But I'd urge you not to bend one iota. Don't be an enabler. Make them confront the perversity of the system, their own inadequacy, and how it daily guarantees the failure of the ideals they claim to hold in high esteem. They need you as a beard for their far greater and more damaging, but less visible, failings.Dan Murphy (talk) 04:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes you have to bend a little and sometimes you have to stand strong. In a sense, this spat isn't really about me at all, it's about Wikipedia, and the childish way it treats its contributors. Malleus Fatuorum 05:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You can do more from the inside than you can from the outside. I'll support your choices, and you're always welcome to talk to me via email too; but I'd rather see you bend a bit this time in order to keep from breaking. Just think of it as an exercise in creative writing - how to say what you think, without using the immediately understandable verbiage. You once said we had a responsibility to the younger generation - please don't give up. — ChedZILLA 05:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I really don't think I can Ched. There has to be some give and take. When have you ever seen me be rude to someone who wasn't insulting to me first? Christians may choose to turn the other cheek, but I say more fool them; that way you get whacked twice. Malleus Fatuorum 05:20, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Brad, this would be sage advice if Wikipedia rewarded kindness and honesty, but it doesn't. If Wikipedia recognized when people de-escalate and treated them accordingly it would be sage advice, but it doesn't. My own experiences here have made that abundantly clear to me.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, you and I don't see eye to eye all the time, but I have a great deal of respect for you. People often lump you together with trolls because your method of interacting with other uses veers too often into the less than stellar areas of insulting people's (perceived lack of) intelligence and calling people names. However while I wish that you would stop doing that, I've come to recongize that you're not a troll, but someone who is deeply intellectually honest and tells it how it is, you just happen to do so in a way that people view as inappropriate. That you've become the community punching bag, that you're viewed as the free target that people can poke at to get a rise out of, and that this feeds into a vicious cycle in which a person that's long been jaded becomes even more jaded, is a tragedy.

While I don't believe that a history of positive contributions should excuse a history of inappropriate behavior, I do believe that it is important to account for the distinction between your incivility and base trolling. In short, to be honest, I do believe that you've gone too far, too often, and that if it doesn't stop, you need to spend some time away from the project. I also believe that you are smart enough to be able to avoid continuing to fall into this trap. You've been wronged a number of times over the course of this project, however fighting to correct these issues is not a role you can play if you continue this confrontational and abrasive attitude. You've become the figurehead for incivility, and your voice doesn't carry the authority that's needed to successful point out the issues this process faces because of that. Too many people discard your thoughts because you're the one making them.

The solution then, is to give the faction that's after you nothing; cut the incivility down to zero, give them nothing to use against you. The less fodder you give your enemies, the weaker their arguments become, and the more obvious that at least some people are after you because you're you. If you leave, nothing changes. If you're banned, nothing changes. If you really want to improve the toxic culture of this project, to combat hypocrisy, vindictiveness, petty actions, give the people behind those petty actions nothing to work with and then watch with silent glee as they lose their positions of respect by trying to grind out something out of nothing. It's an endeavor I wish you luck in. In short, take NYB's offer.

Anyways, feel free to take this as you wish. I've tried to be as honest and straightforward as I can be. I believe that this is the best advice I can give. What you do from here on out is up to you, and I suppose, ArbCom. Best of luck in your endeavors. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hey Malleus. I was away for a while and came back, kind of, a few months ago. Was looking forward to one of your reviews, which I can see may be about to be spectacularly derailed. I've expressed my view at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment. Like Risker commented above, I've noticed you're more likely to get cranky with the turkeys around here in the wee hours (your wee hours; they certainly ain't mine down under). I also thought Courcelles comment about "not perfection, just better" was pertinent. Maybe you should try sleeping after midnight? Not serious, but it would be fantastic if there was some way you could dial it down every now and then, because the reviews, camaraderie, and occasionally hilarious banter of your talk page enrich this community. I think some people want WP to operate like an office, in an environment of "professional volunteerism". I'm not sure that this captures all of the dimensions of a real community that is as big as WP's. It isn't realistic to "vote off the island" the people who are eccentric, cranky, don't quite fit in or whatever. If one does, the island gets boring and then people want to leave. You are someone that both makes the place tick and gives it character. But try and find some way out of this tight spot, for the rest of us if not for your own sake! OK, stopping rambling now. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right about "some people want WP to operate like an office, in an environment of 'professional volunteerism'", though I'd say "many" instead of "some". What people don't "get", it seems to me, is that WP operates just like any other internet forum. Some have moderators, and, at WP, these are known as "admins"; but, like any internet forum, there's a whole spectrum of people contributing, and this includes our moderators. From saintly ciphers to pointless muckrakers we've got them all, and this doesn't surprise me one bit. As things are, the idea of WP as a "professional", collegiate project to create a comprehensive and reliable online encyclopedia, free at the point of use, strikes me as frankly preposterous, even laughable. For me, this came as something of a revelation through a few distasteful events, both witnessed and experienced personally, but actually it gives me some comfort as long as I choose to be involved here! I think that this would only change if the twattage were systemically addressed, and I don't see that happening any time soon: it seems to me that there's some kind of naively sanctimonious bollocks at the heart of this particular internet forum that gets in the way of its own stated aim. Either there should be strict enforcement of received rules of engagement (not lightly do I allude to battle, though such "rules" wouldn't fill me with much confidence were I a fighter!), or people should stop pretending this is anything other than a playground that gives us something to do. All this gormless finger-pointing, people forming gangs, others dressing up as prefects – the only thing it brings more forcefully to mind than a playground is Lord of the Flies. Nasty, but for the fact it's fiction. My 2p. Nortonius (talk) 13:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I know you already figured this for yourself but if there are people who are out to get you (and I can see why you think that), then they are claiming the support both of the people who really are offended at your choice of epithet, and also of the larger number who are concerned about the effect this has on other people. Your own words are being used as a stick to beat you. But you're not Ozzie Osbourne (who seems to have been only left with the swear words, poor chap), or someone with only a few words in their vocabulary. You should be smart enough to outsmart them - cleaning up the taproom language will better highlight the legitimacy of your criticism. I don't know what tactic would work for you - I cuss a lot at the screen, others use milder epithets or the made up swear words from Porridge or Farscape, others avoid responding immediately (write it but leave it in preview for ten minutes), or leave it alone till later if they feel the ire rising, or craft a reply in another application, then write the clean version into the edit window. You can come and cuss at me if you like - I said right at the start (if you recall, a certain party accused me of being a cowgirl (??) for saying it) that I would always try to untangle the underlying complaint from the language it was expressed in. Whatever works for you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I don't watch Arbcom pages nor your talk page so I found this thread by chance. I'm not going to go find the Arb case or read it; I just wanted to say that I hope you figure out a way to make it work for you to stay here. The encyclopedia will miss your contributions, and I'll miss you personally if you disappear. I don't always agree with your approach, but it's clear to me you say what you say for straightforward and honest reasons, and I have a lot of respect for you as a result. Please think of a way to stay. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Altough my comments at the RFA page were not directed at you, I'd like to apologize for them. They might be the breaking point of this motion and even when i don't like the way you express yourself to other users, I consider that banning you is not the best solution. If you answer this post with one of your usual comments, I will understand :) Anyways, I gave my two cents writing this message here. Hope this helps. Regards. — ΛΧΣ21™ 17:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Brad, I've considered what you've said very carefully, but I just don't see any room for compromise in view of Jclemen's comments and the fact that two arbitrators supported the ban proposal after you posted here. It's very clear that nothing I can do or say will alter the outcome of the travesty of what was supposed to have been, let's remind ourselves, a request for clarification. And if the ban doesn't come this time it inevitably will the next time I say anything that some overly sensitive US teenager considers to be rude; you arbitrators pinned a great big target on my back, whether that was your intention or not. I really ought some time ago to have followed the example of Hans Adler, who I quote from at the top of this page: "I am not willing to adapt to the puritan standards of behaviour that are apparently required for participating here. I think I have never encountered such standards in real life, and I am only familiar with them from reports about American society and what I have seen on this project. I am also not keen on getting trapped in a vicious circle similar to those in which Giano and Malleus find themselves". I would ask only for one small favour, which is that the ban not be put into effect for another 24 hours, to give me an opportunity to close the two GA reviews I have open. Malleus Fatuorum 21:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus,

Please take a few days to consider things. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. Sven (above) hits the nail on the head, Malleus. All you have to do is attempt to tone down your language—not your attitude towards the project. Why not try it? Worst case, you can retire on your own terms if you decide to not adhere to the compromise. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 22:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Things have gone too far. Arbitrator AGK quotes this as an example of the kind of exchange he takes such exception to. This place is not for me. Malleus Fatuorum 22:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

An arbitrator with next to no experience of content creation might think that way. Perhaps AGK is an example of what David Fuchs really meant when he said competence is required. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Who knows. Anyway, the ban motion has now passed, so I can only hope that ArbCom get what they deserve come the next election. Malleus Fatuorum 23:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, if you want to take a couple of days to think things through, I will use my best efforts to make sure that nothing happens in the interim. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I've done all the thinking I need to do. All I'm asking for now is a 24-hour stay of execution to complete my two outstanding GA reviews. Malleus Fatuorum 00:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I'm sorry to hear that this is your decision. As you noted, the ban is now passing. If you wake up this morning and want to change your mind, or wish to discuss a way that this can be resolved on both sides short of the ban let me know. Ping me on my talk page, email me. Whatever. I will put this back into a holding pattern instantly. Ignore JClemens's idiotic statement. Work with the vast majority of arbitrators for whom the best possible resolution is that you stay around and do the continued good work that you've done in the past. SirFozzie (talk) 04:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

If you haven't noticed, Malleus, there are arbitrators bending over backwards for you, though obviously not all are. Why not at least try? For crying out loud, there's an easy out here. Take it. Prove the doubters wrong. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise, people might suspect that it's a martyr act. Tony (talk) 07:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I find myself in a very difficult position Tony. I am not, and never have been, one for backing away when I think I'm right, or being afraid to speak my mind when I think it's necessary. I realise that the Wikipedia way is that I should capitulate in some fashion, to appease the mob, but compromise involves give and take. So far all I've seen is a proposal to the effect that if I agree that I'm a potty-mouthed moron whose contributions here are worth less than those of the average parrot, then I might be allowed to continue freely contributing my labour until I upset the next spotty US teenager bearing a grudge. Doesn't seem like much of a deal to me. If ArbCom decide to make a martyr of me then so be it, and no doubt they will have considered what the consequences of that might be. Malleus Fatuorum 15:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

And as an aside, I find myself increasing reluctant to contribute to a site that tolerates the presence of editors such as MONGO, so a separation was pretty much inevitable anyway I guess. Malleus Fatuorum 16:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The committee is not homogeneous. One of the reasons I ran again was a need for someone who actually writes content to be on the damn committee. I've tried pointing out percentages etc. elsewhere. I'm tired and this is fucked. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As I said below the vote currently remains at 6 and has not passed; there is a second proposal, and this all may become moot...Modernist (talk) 16:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I wanted to let you know that I'm disgusted at the arbitration bollocks. There is a meet up in Machester today, if you would like to attend, I would love to buy you a pint. In fact, I would personally see to it that you glass (and that of your good lady should she wish to join us) never run dry. I am truly sorry for the state of this encyclopaedia. Worm^TT(talk) 07:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

What I said above goes to you as well, and some precious others, - I am slow right now, even in thanks, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Go for a few pints Malleus, they are deserved. Ceoil (talk) 08:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Aye. I was going to miss this one because I'm not long out of hospital, but I may be changing my mind in the next hour or two. - Sitush (talk) 10:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Fancy doing a meet up on the day of the TUC march- but I can't even make that due to a family commitments (x3). So they sent me to Coventry instead! The door is always open down here in Rochester- and fireworks and Lancashire Parkin here on Nov 5th. --ClemRutter (talk) 10:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

In a way, you started it WTT, but I forgive you. Hope you had a good time at the meetup. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 00:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I know I did. It was not my intention, as I hope I've made clear in following statements. The meet up was very enjoyable, Pride of Pendle on tap, Anthony Appleyard regaling us about Heathrow and us grilling a couple of of WMUK staff on the subjects of the day. It was a pity you couldn't make it, but I'm sure you will always be welcome - every wikipedian is. Worm^TT(talk) 07:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

But I'm not and never have been a Wiklipedian apparently Malleus Fatuorum 17:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

That comment was reprehensible, a view shared by just one. I hope you take a little heart from the swell of people who support you. Worm^TT(talk) 17:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus. I see that four Committee members have reached out to you regarding this current situation. I note that none of the four, currently, are voting to ban you. But I am. I thought you might want to know why. We've never had a problem you and I, and I have a lot of respect for you - indeed, I recommend you to others when there is GA review or a bit of copy-editing to be done which requires a bit more than the average thought and skill. So I am not voting to ban you because I dislike you, nor because I think you are useless.

Wikipedia is not the community, it's the encyclopaedia - and that is what matters, and what comes first. But we need a community in order to discuss how to shape the encyclopaedia and move it forward. The community as well as providing a means of communication, planning and discussion on how to shape and move forward the encyclopaedia, also provides encouragement, advice, lessons, motivation, etc. A positive, supportive, encouraging, enabling, collaborative community can do wonders - and since being involved in Wikipedia I've been impressed and proud of how this community (one of the world's newest, taking advantage of all the lessons learned since mankind first formed societies) has formed its rules and guidelines. I think some our core rules and guidelines are models of how all societies could be run - Assume good faith, Consensus, etc. The sense that the community runs itself - there is no authority - we decide from within by consensus. We are a young community and are still growing. We still make mistakes and have much to learn. But we move forward with a positive intent - assuming good faith, and doing things by consensus. We are assailed from without by moaners and doubters, attacked by vandals, and are undermined from within by moaners and doubters, POV pushers, ego-trippers, bad eggs, and disruptive users. Yet we improve and go on.

So we have a community that has flaws, and has its attackers and doubters, but is at heart very sound, and is at heart the heart of Wikipedia. We are the community - you and I, and all the others who have commented on this page and on the ArbCom page: the good, the bad, the ugly, those you agree with, and those you disagree with. Whatever our status, and however you or I regard each other or any of the others, we all have roughly the same aim - to build and improve the encyclopaedia.

Now, when someone's conduct is such that they are destabilising the community, it causes me concern. When the community is concentrating on an individual's quarrels and attitudes rather than building the encyclopaedia, then that causes me concern. When an individual's language and attitude are hostile (for whatever reason) it causes me concern not just because it distracts the community from building the encyclopaedia, but because of the chilling effect that hostility has, not just on the person to whom it is used, but also on those listening in. There are many people who when they walk into a community, a club, a workplace, a school, a pub, a college or school, and they hear arguments, swearing and shouting, are disquieted. Regardless of the reasons for the argument, they will not be motivated, and they will not be encouraged. Just the fact of a loud argument is unsettling. When they see someone being belittled for a comment they may not even understand, they are worried if they same will happen to them. They are not emboldened to take part in discussions. They are scared off. They are discouraged. It's not just the swear words or the noise, it is the apparent disregard for the other person's dignity. When it is the person them-self who is at the receiving end of the hostility, this is especially discouraging. Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people in very good faith say silly things. Sometimes people are not as knowledgeable, as intelligent, as articulate, as tactful, as we would like. So be it. We need to look at the bigger picture, consider the impact of our own conduct, and see what we, who are better, more knowledgeable, more experienced, wiser and older, can do to assist them, and the wider audience.

Often when your name comes up in incidents, there are people, including yourself, who defend your inappropriate conduct and language (let's not pretend it is anything other than that) because you were baited or provoked or otherwise had good reason to be annoyed. You would not be alone in that. Sadly, a large number of Wikipedians have come upon moments that pushed their red mist button. I think this has been common to most (all?) societies, and probably has been throughout time. However, I guess we learn self-restraint, self-control, and we devise a set of rules to help back that up. In your case, you have possibly (I don't know, this is an assumption) not been encouraged to developed self-restraint or to abide by our community's rules, because you have been encouraged in your inappropriate conduct by the users who wish to support you - often well meaning, but perhaps focussing more on your individual contributions, and less on the wider impact. It may well be that you have been harshly treated, and a thorough examination of your Wikipedia history may show that abuse. However, what counts here and now with a motion on the table is that currently you appear to react inappropriately to very small provocation. And that your mode of communication is too often abrupt for some people.

So, I am voting to ban you because I don't want to see the Wikipedia community go down the road of accepting or excusing hostile conduct that discourages other users. I want people who come here to behave themselves, and to encourage others to behave themselves, and to encourage others to take part in building the project; and to take all aspects of their own behaviour into account when considering that encouragement. I don't expect people to be perfect, and I will take provocation into mitigation, as well as positive contributions; but I am concerned when someone's behaviour is not modified after warnings, and especially when under sanction.

I am keen to look at and consider other solutions than a ban, but until a viable solution is proposed, I will continue to support a ban, regardless of how much I respect your work and your dedication. If you can propose a solution yourself, I'll be more than happy to hear it. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

This is such nonsense SilkTork. If you'd care to browse Malleus's talk page archives on a random basis, you will find hundreds of editors who will have nothing but thanks for the way Malleus has taken time out to help them improve the article(s) they care about. If you're worried about the community here, worry about those idiots who hang around at ANI and the effect they have on community stability, not the people who actually get stuck in and improve articles beyond recognition. Parrot of Doom 18:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Arrant nonsense IMHO, this is tilting at windmills with a vengeance! Let me draw attention to my earlier comment – no offence, but I think your characterisation of the "community" is pie-in-the-sky. Lastly, if MF were actually site banned for any amount of time, for that same amount of time I for one would lose all inclination to contribute creatively here: I'd probably still revert vandalism, fix typos and so-on, but the potential FAC I have in mind could certainly go hang in the meantime. That's not a threat (or a promise!) – that would be silly – it's just how strongly I feel about this whole wrong-headed and nonsensical notion. Point is, my reaction would be partly out of disgust at something I can nonetheless live without, but also partly because, well, just guess which individual has helped me most in recent years at WP, and is the first person to whom I'd turn if in doubt over nominating an FAC...! Nortonius (talk) 18:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

"Sometimes people in very good faith say silly things." Er, yes. The whole of Silk Tork's comment above shows a triumph of well-meaning fluff over intelligence, insight or understanding. If this statement represents our community, I no longer identify with that community. A sad thing to say after nearly 7 years but there you have it. --John (talk) 18:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You must do whatever you can convince yourself and others is right SilkTork. For myself, I'm singularly unimpressed with what you've had to say. You and several others took it upon yourself to disrupt and divert a request for clarification into a witch hunt. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you clearly aren't. Disgraceful really. Malleus Fatuorum 18:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I have nothing but respect and admiration for Malleus. He edited and helped a article which he had no common interest (apart from his wife liking the programme) to get it to FA status, which is the proudest part of my Wikipedia "life". In my opinion you cannot find any other editor who represents the "community" of Wikipedia. — M.Mario (T/C) 18:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

He who thinks his vote is just won't feel compelled to post a long explanation. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Silk, I have been subjected to far worse attacks than those made by Malleus and been threatened with sanctions by multiple admins when reporting the offending party. Your comments would be impressive if my own experience did not inform me as to it naivety.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• I posted the above, and it wandered from my intent. I've just come back to withdraw it and write something shorter and to the point, but I see it's too late. I think my shorter posting would have been something along the lines that hostile comments - however they arise - are off-putting to a number of contributors/potential contributors, and that there are other ways of making our disagreements known. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 19:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  Then I suggest that you and your colleagues stop making such hostile comments. Malleus Fatuorum 19:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  If you're looking for hostile, uncivil, harassing comments, you need look no further than your colleague Jclemens. Will you be banning him any time soon? I am a contributor here, and I find such comments highly off-putting. --John (talk) 19:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

  Well said, John. Bencherlite^Talk 19:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

SilkTork, your vision for Wikipedia above is refreshing. I was with you all the way, until I realized you seemed to think you were describing the current Wikipedia. Where is the future if we have functionaries as disconnected and lost in romantic fallacies as that, while others indulge savageries at the level expressed here. Would Malleus be pilloried with such intensity if he wasn't our top copy editor? Is it time now to port the Wikipedia content to an alternative Wikipedia dedicated to enabling content development? --Epipelagic (talk) 21:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• As I've said on my talkpage: My preference is for a full case to look into the matter. I'd rather we keep on trying to find a solution rather than to give up and ban MF, or to give up and allow hostility to be accepted. But of those two extremes I would reluctantly accept the ban over the hostility. The choices in preference order: 1) A full case; 2) A workable motion that allows MF to continue working and reduces drama and hostility for everyone; 3) A ban 4) Do nothing.

The Committee as a body do not want a case, so we are left looking at a workable solution, a ban, or doing nothing. There is too much bad feeling, drama and divisiveness to do nothing - though that could also be said for a ban. Neither are ideal options. So we are left with finding a workable solution. I don't think mentoring is a workable solution. I'm not sure it has worked in many cases. I was involved in mentoring Mattisse, and that did not work out. I am very dubious of that route. I am also dubious of any route that involves people needing to monitor and discus a user's actions. The difficulty with civility issues is the lack of agreement, so I'm not sure how we can improve that by having multiple discussions which reach no agreement. I'd like to see a solution which has bright lines that everyone can understand. I believe that Malleus has complied with bright lines. The problems occur with the grey areas of civility where some feel it is OK to be insulting in certain occasions, but others do not, so there is no bright line. If we can avoid those grey areas, and look at bright lines: Topic bans from certain areas. Interaction bans. Word bans - let's make a list: fucker, cunt, liar, idiot....

I would hope that with a decent will some solution could be found where Malleus could edit without distress and without causing distress. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 01:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Why should it just apply to Malleus? Yesterday I was called a "fucktard" by one of your friends Silk and you did nothing to warn him of his incivility. It doesn't seem right to be preaching about civility when you permit your friends to spout their mouths off like that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This is far more offensive than anything I've ever seen Malleus ever said, doesn't people like that concern you SilkTork? He's a content contributor, but he's also excused for speaking to me like that?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry that Ceoil wrote that. I feel the pain of everyone. I wish you both would focus on the main topic, saving Malleus. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

FWIW The vote currently remains at 6 and there is a second proposal...Modernist (talk) 12:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Does it really matter any more? The damage has been done. Malleus Fatuorum 16:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

To quote Dylan: pettiness which plays so rough; Walk upside-down inside handcuffs; Kick my legs to crash it off; Say okay, I have had enough, what else can you show me? We all try to deal with it and get over the pettiness [10] - happens to all of us...Modernist (talk) 17:11, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason at all why I should be expected to put up with the abuse that's heaped on me here. As an experiment, I have occasionally lodged a complaint at AN/I, to which the common response is "you've got a bloody nerve coming here complaining about incivility". It's just as Hans Adler so wisely said. Malleus Fatuorum 18:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone told me yesterday that I copied you: "I couldn't care less". No, we arrived at the same conclusion independently. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:04, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Gerda. You're a girl, right? Would you please tell the hounds from Hell that I am not some chauvinist monster who chases away female editors? Or alternatively, if you think I am, please feel to post your thoughts here, and be be prepared to feel my wrath. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 19:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I am always flattered when I am called a girl, see my talk ;) (Female I am.) I came to appreciate your talk as a great forum and said so. Reading it now makes me a bit sentimental, though. Give your wife some imaginary wildflowers and enjoy life, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As you may remember my wife spent a lot of money earlier this year on wildflower seeds, almost none of which actually germinated. So I think that if I gave her a posie of all the flowers she failed to grow this year I might end wearing it. Or worse. English women can be so prickly sometimes. Malleus Fatuorum 19:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I remember, that's why I said use imagination. Remember, we need some perspective ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I think this is a stupid playground fight between guys that's gone out of control. If only women were involved, I think it would be dealt with differently. No one wants to back down; no one wants to give a inch; and people are backed into corners. Women tend sort stuff like that out better in my view. At this point, I think it's all pretty stupid. I think we need you so the spotty teenagers from the US can learn something of the world outside their suburban walls; in that sense I think you serve a purpose that's perhaps more important than your writing. But I have strange ideas in that regard, so don't take my word. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a stupid playground fight as well, but sometimes fights have to be fought. Probably growing up is different for boys than for girls, but I never, ever, funked the after-school fight. And I see this episode as exactly the same kind of bullying thing I fought against then. Malleus Fatuorum 19:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The question is: how to break up the playground fight. As a woman I'm just rolling my eyes now. Enough is enough, the fight has been fought, time to move on. Archive the entire discussion and let it be. Unfortunately that won't happen, but I don't know the answer. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:06, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Castration reduces territorialism in male rabbits, I've read. Perhaps partial neutering---

Executives of skillful execution

Will therefore plan to go halfway and stop.

Yes, revolutions are the only salves,

But they're one thing that should be done by halves.

can sweeten others? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:25, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what the answer is TK, but sure as Hell it's not refusing to fight because to do so would be stressful. It's obviously not even a gender issue, given Margaret Thatcher's position on the Falklands War. And I can tell you from personal experience that the way to break up a fight is to wade in and separate the combatants, not to sit on the sidelines praying for divine intervention. Malleus Fatuorum 21:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I think there must be a full moon or something in the water or something. Everyone's gone completely bonkers and is acting like a bunch of bulls that just saw a red flag or something. Gees... talk about testosterone poisoning en-masse! I'm going back to real life where people don't act this crazy... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time however the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time."

— Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The latest comment by AGK. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Uh-oh, MONGO!

MONGO seems to be going bongo BONGO:

That's a no-no, MONGO — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk • contribs) 09:28, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

MONGO tries to get Malleus blocked

gets called arsehole

This never happened to Pablo Picasso.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

As you are probably aware, WP:NPA is a policy. This edit violates that policy. I suggest you retract it. I also suggest you apologise. As you probably also know, repeated violation of policies can lead to blocks. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense - disruptive threat - you should retract it yourself Shultz - Yawn - lol - Youreallycan 21:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that you try allocating whatever limited resources you have at your disposal to extracting your head from your arse. Malleus Fatuorum 21:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Jesus, just when I thought the drama was starting to calm down someone had to go start an AN/I thread and here we are again. Like seriously. Now it really is just childish. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:41, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh for fuck's sake. "I've got a block button and I'm gonna use it". There's an element of the wild West about all this, everyone wants to have a go at the local gunslinger, even though he'd be happier sitting in the saloon minding his own business. Or a bullfight; one bull, goaded and tormented, a legion of picadors and toreadors and wankadors, and then in prances Arbcom in its shiny suit with strategically padded codpiece. pablo 21:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hush. Show respect now! The lights are dimming while Wikipedia enters the new era of MONGOISM. It is entirely appropriate that Shultz attempt the coup de grace of the vanquished order. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The Brilliant Idea Barnstar

Wait--you were blocked for insulting MONGO? Well, now, that's a terrible thing. Isn't it. Really, Malleus, tsk tsk. I hope you gave him the FU he deserves. We're talking about that idiot who wants the credit for driving you off, right? If you did, well done. And who was the fool that thought it was a good use of his little tool to block you? I'm not following things anymore: I looked at the ArbCom shit yesterday or the day before and right now I don't give a good goddamn about this whole project. Take it easy, and please give my regards to Mrs. Malleus. Drmies (talk) 23:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Dr Malleus. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Malleus

As a party involved in the 2nd WP:FAC of Microsoft Security Essentials, you might be willing to participate in Wikipedia:Featured article review/Microsoft Security Essentials/archive1.

Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 08:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

No chance, sorry. Malleus Fatuorum 08:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

--Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Not helpful. Like putting out a fire with gasoline. Nobody Ent 21:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

No not helpful at all - its a disruptive action from Shultz - Youreallycan 21:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) But quite typical of the dishonesty here. Malleus Fatuorum 21:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a put up job, a bait trap...Modernist (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Gasoline, yes. Unfortunately the original phrase "putting out a fire by being a massive clueless twat" never caught on.^{[citation needed]} pablo 21:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Shame, it'd make a good meme, to join "WWNYBD?" Black Kite (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• He was unblocked 5 minutes after the block by User:Boing! said Zebedee with the reason "malicious block".--Bbb23 (talk) 22:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

  And those to come will say, "Oh, look, he's been blocked 14 times. must be a bad un". They won't take the trouble to look at the context of my block for using the word "sycophantic", for instance. Malleus Fatuorum 22:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I dunno, Malleus, your block log, just like pretty much everything associated with you, is rather unusual. Look at all the unblocks coming after the blocks. Looks more like a controversial block log rather than a "bad" editor block log.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• If I thought it would help, I'd put on my shiny codpiece (thank you Pedro, did you get it from User:Darwinbish) and offer to block the next person who tries to use the block button to fix the situation. But then I'd probably just end up blocking myself or something. Oh well. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Completely unsurprised that MONGO is at the centre of this. And all because Malleus exposed the shortcomings of an article MONGO had heavy involvement with. Parrot of Doom 22:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Malleus should not have been blocked, it was an uneccessary, and could have easily been sorted out without any of this going to WP:ANB; I am glad someone protected the page! — M.Mario (T/C) 22:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Why should any grown up be expected to put up with this kind of shit? Malleus Fatuorum 22:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Because the overall aim of the project is worth putting up with this for.
• Because there is sometimes some personal learning involved in the topic research, which is itself a worthwhile goal.

Otherwise no reason. You can put up with the shit if you wish to, it's not usually too onerous. Even the idiocy isn't too painful - you're only required to make the show of being civil to the fools, not to respect them. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

You have your opinion, I have mine. I guess you'll do better with your way than I will with mine though, as mine involves honesty and integrity. Malleus Fatuorum 23:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Cheers Malleus, it's nice to know that you consider me dishonest and without integrity. Andy Dingley (talk) 02:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know where you got that idea from, I was simply commenting on your suggested approach. Malleus Fatuorum 09:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• Just walked in and the whole world is upside down and has lost its mind, collectively. I agree the block was a bad one. I don't know Stephan so I can't speak to his motives, but I'm glad Boing fixed it quickly. Entirely too much drama in every corner of Wikipedia lately. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Pedro? Quién? Elen, I was referring to your (Arbcom) collective apparel, not suggesting that you, personally, were given to ornamental knickers. Matadors do not traditionally wear protection in the southern region, but Arbcom seems to. At least JClemens seems to think he is invulnerable. But you have made your feelings known elsewhere, this was just a wardrobe issue here. pablo 23:15, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Good grief. Would everyone take a deep breath and let the arbitration finish? This is getting kind of out of control. Ditto Dennis Brown, too much drama lately. Malleus, I'm not going to say I agree with everything or even most of what you do, but I think that when we start blocking productive contributors, it sends ripple effects throughout the project and is sad. Go Phightins! 02:49, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
  • In several places, I've formally requested Jclemens recuse himself in the Arb "hearing" due to the obvious lack of objectivity. I don't expect much to come of it nor everyone to agree, but I think the integrity of the process requires it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

    Apparently JClemens made his beliefs known on the ArbCom mailing list weeks ago, and none of the ArbCommers said that his deviance precluded his participation before. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Last two blocks have been unblocked within 15 minutes, the latest within 5 minutes which is very extreme in regards to blocking. Says it all really, embarrassing that admins could have such radically different perceptions and illustrates above all the weakness behind the concept of having admins in the first place...☠ Count de Blofeld 14:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• • Soap Operas on every channel. I'm reluctant to pipe in anywhere except to remind everyone that Malleus is a Wikepedian, a citizen of whatever this thing is that we are creating. His papers are in order. To say otherwise (until he is forced to walk the plank) is harmful to all of us. No administrator should have that much power. ```Buster Seven Talk 17:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello Malleus Fatuorum. I mentioned you in a discussion here. I'd like to present an idea to you for consideration. If you believe the idea has any merit whatsoever, it would be great if you helped me develop it, or at least agree to support its potential. If not, you can tell me how foolish it is to your satisfaction, or you can dismiss the notion out of hand. I hope you will agree to hear me further and await guidance from you. Thanks - 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 01:17, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your idea is Mystrat76, but mine is that Wikipedia is irretrievably fucked. Malleus Fatuorum 05:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

There are strong indications that you are right, but I'd like to present the idea to you, in hopes that you'll see a potential (which I'm sure you will see if it exists). It won't even take a lot of effort to consider, unless you see a potential, and agree in its worth. I'd like to email you at first, if you don't mind, and then incorporate your advice and direction. I'll await an indication from you before I assume it's okay to contact you with further regards. Thank you. - 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 08:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The project is not irretrievable, it's just going through its periodic round of silly season, which is not so silly-feeling to its victims. THis too shall pass, like gas... loud, smelly, but ultimately vapor. Montanabw^(talk) 08:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Greetings Malleus Fatuorum. I am curious to know if you received an email from me, ultimately hoping to know your regards. Thank you. - 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 01:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I made sometime ago a major update in a FA called Honório Hermeto Carneiro Leão, Marquis of Paraná. Many sentences were changes to better suit the newer and improved sources used in the article. However, I want to be sure that the article still looks good enough to be a FA. I wonder, if you have time and interest, if you could take a look at it and make any needed improvements? In case you are willing, the only request I make is not to increase the number of paragraphs. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 02:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course I'll take a look Lecen, if I'm still allowed to tomorrow. And no more paragraphs, I promise. Or at least if I think there should be more paragraphs I'll discuss it with you first. Malleus Fatuorum 04:57, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Take your time. I've collected a few blocks too. They didn't stop me, certainly won't stop you either. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 09:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I've started reading through. Where would you prefer me to post any queries I have Lecen? On your talk page or the article's talk page? Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

At the schools I went to as a youngster it was quite commonplace that the school bully or one of his acolytes would challenge you to a fight outside the school gates when school was over. Was that a uniquely Scottish custom? Malleus Fatuorum 21:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

No. We had an area of grass in the housing estate dubbed the "wedging green" where such pre-arranged fights took place. Same era as you - in the North East. Leaky Caldron 21:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Not at all; Yorkshire also. Usually it was a henchman deputed to issue the challenge. First day at a new school, being invited to fight the bully I thought "oh not this shit again" and simply punched the henchman. The bully failed to keep the appointment. I learned something that day. pablo 21:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much exactly what happened to me on one occasion. My deeper question though is how could you not have fought? And how would you feel about yourself today if you hadn't fought? Malleus Fatuorum 21:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

IIRC, my record was w1, d1, l2. There were a lot of bullies in my school! There was virtually no choice, you were escorted to the green by "seconds". Can't say for sure, it was a long time ago. Never felt scarred by the experience, but if I had won the first not the last the other's probably wouldn't have happened. Leaky Caldron 21:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I seem to recall that those who avoided the fight had a pretty miserable time of it for a while afterwards - it was like having a target on your back saying "this person can be bullied and teased; his dinner money is yours for the asking. Fighting (even if you lost) was the better option. More painful in the short-term, certainly, but worth it. pablo 21:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

That's what I saw as well, so I never avoided the fight. Malleus Fatuorum 21:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I will have to get to one of these Manchester meetups one day. They do have beer at them, I believe? pablo 22:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

They do, and apparently you're even allowed to emit the odd "fuck" from time to time. Hopefully when Sitush has recovered we'll meet up again and have a proper chat. Malleus Fatuorum 22:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I wasn't allowed the choice: my father was vicar and chairman of the board of governors and teacher at my infants and juniors, so there was no escaping his decree that I must "turn the other cheek". Whichever way I turned I'd be shunned at school or at home! Which would you choose? Mind you, if I knew then what I know now ect. [sic]; I wasn't bullied at big school, I believe because no-one knew my father was a vicar – make of that what you will. Nortonius (talk) 22:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

In Scotland, where I lived on and off until I was 12, people have at least two different accents; the one they use at home and the one they use in more formal company. I remember one day on my way back from school being confronted by a gang demanding to know how my family spoke at home. To escape, I had to reassure them that my family used the same kind of gutter language that they did. Scotland is a strange place. Malleus Fatuorum 09:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you remember, did you have travelling shops up there? Like a very long, high van which you entered from the back and could get groceries? Which part of Scotland did you grow up in, if you don't mind me asking? Leaky Caldron 09:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in fact my father operated one, a converted bus. I grew up in Ayrshire. Malleus Fatuorum 09:55, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

One of ours was operated by the Co-op. If I forgot to come back with the dividend receipt I was told off by my mother. I can still remember her dividend account number, 36975. Happy days! Leaky Caldron 10:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Ouch- you have just wasted an excellent password there.--ClemRutter (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The after school fight is also an American custom. Nobody Ent 14:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Your block log is mentioned here: User talk:Nobody Ent/block log Nobody Ent 20:53, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

When people are beholding Malleus, the intelligence gradient makes their heads snap back, and many of them walk around punchy for days. It's not their fault. Thus, the number of ridiculous blocks from normally capable administrators. (I have publicly stated that at least one block was within policy, although imprudent, imho.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

And another courtesy notice re the proposed topic ban (motion 2, currently passing) - I've posed seven scenarios at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Questions from Bencherlite that I think the topic ban would cover, asking the arbs to check that my understanding of the coverage is correct (and if not to clarify the wording if possible) to avoid as many problems as possible later under the law of unintended consequences. I've alerted Courcelles as the original drafter of motion 2 as well, because I suspect my musings will get buried in the wall of text... Bencherlite^Talk 22:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, thanks for letting me know. I'd have to say that I find aspects of motion 2 rather strange, and I'm sure it won't satisfy MONGO, but whatever. Malleus Fatuorum 22:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone email me when some sense seems to be in the air. I just can't be arsed with this shitty place right now. Pesky (talk) 07:54, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm still waiting to see who MONGO and his ilk latch onto should they get rid of Malleus. Intothatdarkness 13:53, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Another mention Nobody Ent 14:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks once more for taking the time and effort to review the article. Lemonade51 (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the review of SŻ. I know we disagree on references, but please, can you refrain from removing refs from my articles? In the few case where the sentences were combined, sure, there is no need for a ref in the middle if it is at the end of sentences, but after your recent passes there are some potentially controversial parts that look unreferenced. I will give you one example. You removed a reference from te sentence: "As a result of his successful campaign Żółkiewski seized Moscow and captured the tsar Vasiliy Shuyskiy and his brothers, Ivan Shuyskiy and Dmitri Shuyskiy". The capture of those tsars by Ż is a rather controversial event in P-R history, and I would not be surprised if a random Russian passerby tagged it as requiring a cite. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

We obviously disagree about referencing, so I suggest that I close the review and you can ask for another reviewer. I do not approve of the "citation for every sentence" approach, which simply clutters the text to no advantage. Malleus Fatuorum 23:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

You two are just coming at it from different angles. From a stylistic point of view citations for every sentence are total ugly mess. But in this topic area people will fight over ANYTHING. I recently got accused of "misrepresenting sources" because I put a citation at the end of a paragraph rather than at a particular point in a particular sentence. And I've seen users who will tag every single sentence in a section or a paragraph with ^{[citation needed]} tags just to make it look ugly. So Piotrus is being proactively defensive there.

Anyway, whether or not you finish this review or not, thanks for the comments and the copy editing. Volunteer Marek  00:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

That sounds a lot like you are being forced to bow to disruption, never good. We should always think of readers first, so a sensible level of citation is the most readable option. Editors come second - so, Piotrus, I encourage you to adopt broader citation for this article, and if someone tries to kick off I am happy to put a stop to it. I'll pick up some of those sources tomorrow to add to the bookshelf just in case :) --Errant ^(chat!) 00:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I would obviously not be within my rights to close the review as "not listed" simply because of this citation issue, but I do think, like Errant that you need to stand up to those disrupting the article; as Errant says, we need to be thinking of our readers, not pandering to our POV warriors. However, there are still quite a few general language issues such as "Żółkiewski's popularity begun to wane in the latter years of his career", which I've just fixed, and "After the battle his corpse was desecrated with the head cut off and sent to Constantinople as a war trophy. His widow bought out his body from the Turks ...". I had been happy to assist with the necessary copyediting, but not if my efforts are unwelcome. Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As I said earlier, your efforts are certainly welcome. All I am asking is if you would consider, pretty please, not removing references in articles where I have spend time adding them. Again, I very much appreciate your copyediting and comments. I respect your work a lot, I am just asking you to respect mine, and I would hope that not removing references (not doing something) will not prove too difficult of a request to carry out. As VM noted, there are certain areas that are more controversial and thus require more strict (dense...) citation policy. And that policy not only benefits the editors; it also benefits the readers, who can more easily trust the content, seeing a reference close by. Once again, I very much appreciate your help with the article, and I see the referencing as a minor issue. I also believe that WP:CITE notes that several alternate style of references are allowed on Wikipedia (ex. use harvard or not), and I see the issue of density as one of those. WP:CITE advises to leave the dominat style in the article, I am simply suggesting you don't worry yourself too much about my reference style, and don't worry about "fixing it"; by trying to do so you are simply creating extra work for yourself in a place where MoS is not clear if it is needed. I'd rather see you focus on all the other aspects of this and other articles that badly need your time and experience. Thanks! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

We're obviously unlikely to agree any time soon on your interpretation of WP:CITE or the best way to deal with POV warriors, but all I'm trying to do is to clear my desk of GA reviews before moving on; I thought that was only fair. I'll take a final look at the article tomorrow and make a decision. Re the question above; did Żółkiewski's widow buy his body from the Turks? "Bought out" makes no sense, as that's what you do with businesses, not corpses, but it seems very strange to use the word "buy" in this context. Malleus Fatuorum 05:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, she bought the corpse (along with the corpse of their son), so it could be buried back in Poland. Volunteer Marek  06:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully you won't leave us - and hopefully you still have my email and the one I have for you won't change. However, I also know that putting things off can lead to regrets, and there were two things that I feel we never finished talking about - so I thought I'd offer replies that I should have at the time.

1. immigrate vs. emigrate: My mother was an American grade-school English teacher, so I asked her about this. She explained her thoughts like this: Immigrate starts with the letter "I", like the word "in". So - a person Immigrates to a destination. Emigrate starts with the letter "E", like the word "exit". So - a person emigrates from a destination. I don't know if that is correct, but it's how I was taught.

2. The word "cunt" (yes - that's still tough for me to type or say in mixed company). You asked if my own personal thoughts on this had anything to do with a Puritanical American upbringing. I've have to say yes, you are probably spot-on with that observation. My "guess" would be that many of those who traveled here from the 1400s through the 1700s did so as a "Protestant" religion. (I was raised United Presbyterian myself). I think with each successive generation that much of the original "teachings" are lost or modified, but the older a particular generation is from that background the more they adhere to a "things you can say and things you can't say" attitude. Perhaps there was a "scare factor" involved in keeping people in line. I've read about people being put in stocks for not adhering to to communal beliefs of the past. With that particular word it breaks down (for me) to a gender issue. If using it to refer to a male - it indicates wimpishness, cowardly, less than a real man type of slur. If used to refer to a female - then it suggests a dirty, un-ladylike, tramp type of slur. That's just my personal thoughts and I have no documentation to verify anything.

Well, I don't know what it will be like a week or a month from now - but I hope you are still contributing your abilities here. But no matter what, more than that, I hope that you and your wife are happy and enjoying life. You're a person I greatly admire and respect. Your honesty and integrity are truly inspiring to anyone who chooses to observe. Best of luck in all Malleus. — Ched :  ?  06:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I know you're busy but if you're interested, I'd like your opinion on this. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• That would probably be a bad idea, all things considered. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I found it hilarious, given the proposer. Johnbod (talk) 00:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I refuse to engage with Johnbod on article talk pages because he's a bully and a liar. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I am planning to write an article about SAS veteran/tracker and son of Leeds, "Jungle" Eddie McGee. An article by this name (the winner of the first season of the American version of Big Brother...) already exists. I wonder if you or any of the other esteemed visitors to this talk page have a suggestion for how to name the proposed article? I have considered Eddie McGee (soldier), Eddie McGee (survivalist) and Eddie McGee (tracker) thus far. Keristrasza (talk) 08:16, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Eddie McGee (British Army officer) - assuming that is his main claim to notability :-) --Errant ^(chat!) 17:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps back off a bit there? You are getting sucked in and any time now you'll find yourself being played if you are not careful. I know that it is hard to ignore but sometimes it is best. - Sitush (talk) 15:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not hard to ignore Sitush, it's impossible to ignore. It's because people don't fight back that the bad guys get away with it. "All that's needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing" (Edmund Burke). But I'll leave it for now. Malleus Fatuorum 15:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that, but there are plenty of other eyes on the thing. You made a valid point but then got a bit sucked in, imo. Once the honesty word starts getting thrown around, it is all too easy for someone to twist things and say "I've been accused of lying and that is a personal attack". Without 100% proof, it is probably best not to push the point after initially raising it. Btw, I've just noticed that Niteshift36 has a userbox for "say no to political correctness". Given their present position, that seems somewhat odd! Perhaps they've changed their mind and forgotten to update their userpage.

And a further "btw" is that I received an email yesterday from one of the regular Indic article contributors. Basically, a greetings card type of thing relating to Dashahra (the Hindu harvest festival equivalent), it included a Burke quote: "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little." I already knew of the one that you mentioned above but the similarity is evident. I presume either bowdlerisation or, more likely, that Burke was more consistent than some of those who fly the aforementioned userbox! - Sitush (talk) 16:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and if I have offended you in any way with the above then please accept my apologies. I had your best interests at heart and, of course, am looking forward to a gab over a pint or five in the near future, be you a Wikipedian, a Wikipedian who is not a Wikipedian or just plain John Smith. - Sitush (talk) 18:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Shall I block you for outing a Wikipedian now?--Scott Mac 18:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

My name isn't John Smith. Malleus Fatuorum 18:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course I'm not offended Sitush, don't be silly. You were of course quite right, but it's just not in my nature. Malleus Fatuorum 18:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I hope Sitush didn't mean John Smith's beer. J3Mrs (talk) 19:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

No, although there is a good article for that. I'm not sure if Scott was being humourous or not but am AGF'ing on that. - Sitush (talk) 19:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Sitush! I'm shocked, but I don't think I've ever drunk any, thank goodness. Hard to know what some people mean, I prefer the straight forward any day. J3Mrs (talk) 19:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for a very helpful c/e of the SŻ article. Have some tea on me! Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. You haven't got a tot of rum to go with that I suppose? I should be able to complete the copyediting this evening, so I expect we can close the review fairly soon now. Malleus Fatuorum 18:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I have rum-based nalewka... :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello there. I've heard you're an excellent copy editor. Thanks for helping others with your skill. I had someone with an English degree take a look at DVT, and I've taken their suggestions, but perhaps you can make sure the English is brilliant and comment at Wikipedia:Peer review/Deep vein thrombosis/archive3? Thanks for your time. Biosthmors (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't help. Just got a couple of GA reviews to finish and then I'll be off. Malleus Fatuorum 15:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. No problem. If it turns out you're able to later, feel free to post at my talk page or send me an email. Same name and gmail. My next project should be pulmonary embolism. And malaria, which kills 2000 to 3000 people a day, should be up to good article status and hopefully FA status, soon. Best. Biosthmors (talk) 17:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to renew Biosthmors's invitation. I'm sure your contributions would be appreciated. Best, —MistyMorn (talk) 16:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, it's not possible for me to continue contributing here. I'd hate myself for the rest of my life if I did. Malleus Fatuorum 16:52, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Really sorry to hear that, Malleus. I was hoping there might be a consensual agreement to avoid editing between the hours of midnight, say, and whenever. Hope you may yet have a change of heart, at least for some areas of the project (and I have no trouble putting in a good word for MED). Anyway, I wish you all the best quite independently. —MistyMorn (talk) 18:47, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

What exactly are you implying by making a suggestion that I should have a curfew imposed? Malleus Fatuorum 18:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No, not implying anything. Personally, for different reasons (following the departure of User:Tim riley), I've quite voluntarily focused my editing primarily on matters related to the MED project. Works for me (touching wood... and iron in Italian...). —MistyMorn (talk) 19:09, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I may end up going down a similar route, too soon to say. Too much bad feeling to make any kind of commitment to anything that requires work, such as copyediting, reviewing or writing. And to be truthful I've rather come to resent being thought of as a copyediting unit of work, as if that's all I've done. I didn't start out here thinking "Wouldn't it be great if I could be allowed to spend hours and hours of unpaid labour polishing the work of others so that they could take credit for it". And I guess that frustration sometimes bubbles over, no matter what the clock says. Anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 19:30, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No, of course I wouldn't suggest that (and, by the way, thank you very much for the Manchester Ship Canal!); I just guessed you wouldn't want to start composing medical articles. Expressing technically correct content for a predominantly non-technical, general readership (eg in the lead) is no easy task, and input from someone like yourself could be genuinely valuable (and valued) I think. As regards the "bubbling over", I have difficulties of my own there. I found Tim's sad and saddening departure hard to accept. I've tried to start afresh on my own terms in a slightly different environment and am hoping to find a solution which works for me. I don't currently have any plans to change my user page. Anyway... —MistyMorn (talk) 19:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

	The Editor's Barnstar
	For all your great and amazing content work. ArbCom madness apart, I hope you are having a relative good time (excuse me if I am a little naive). I just wish you the best :). — ΛΧΣ21™ 15:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, MF deserves a barnstar for his RfA work. I don't know of any editor who receives so many thanks for evaluating candidates. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Above, you wrote "At the schools I went to as a youngster... Was that a uniquely Scottish custom?" I hadn't realised that you were possibly one of the Salted Porridge Brigade. This means, of course, that I now hear only Peter Capaldi/Malcolm Tucker's voice when I read your comments. It is delicious good fun. Keristrasza (talk) 06:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, and sadly, Ayrshire is more like Neil Oliver. That's no good at all. Johnbod (talk) 12:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I now cannot dislodge the thought of Dr. Oliver getting all Begbie on someone. A powerful image. Keristrasza (talk) 14:42, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint, but my accent is nothing like either of theirs, and you'd have to listen very carefully to detect even the slightest trace of a Scottish accent, although you might pick it up in some of my words choices, such as "Och!" Malleus Fatuorum 19:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Malleus - how the hell are you? I see from the Arbcom noticeboard that your campaign to reduce the ennui and apathy that usually greets the elections is having some success - well done indeed. I haven't read any of the doubtless riveting background material and don't intend to. It would perhaps all be rather funny if it weren't also obvious that there is genuine ill-feeling and suffering involved. It's all grist to the mill I suppose and useful evidence for some bright young thing's forthcoming PhD on "attachment theory in on-line relationships" or similar.

I have a notion that Origins of the Uí Ímair and the Earls of Orkney is a possible GAN. However, it is not in mainspace yet as I am a little worried that the final summary, although cited line-by-line is a possible technical breach of WP:SYNTH in that I have never seen a published overview of these hypotheses (although the authorities do of course mention the existence of different approaches). Any input would be welcome. Ben MacDui 13:35, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Irrespective of the offense you took to the observation I made in my prior message (which I intended to convey with a somewhat facetious tone), I really don't think you want to close a GA review for reasons as petty as you seemed to indicate, since it would probably not reflect well upon you as a GA reviewer. The assertion with you tried to pass off as justification for doing so, that I did not have any intention of addressing the issues you raised, is obviously false, since I responded to every single issue you raised, and implemented the ones that seemed reasonable. To close the review on this basis just over a day after your previous message to me (when it took me a week to respond to your October 15 message), makes it seem rather transparent what your true basis for that action is, don't you think? Are you sure you don't want to reconsider this? Nightscream (talk) 05:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

You have been consistently and aggressively uncooperative right from the start of this review, which is now over; I will not be reconsidering. Malleus Fatuorum 13:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

"Consistently and aggressively uncooperative"? What you talking about? I've implemented every single correction and suggestion that you've made that I understood that I did not feel was questionable, and in instances of those that were, I presented my questions or arguments to you. How does that constitute consistent lack of cooperation? Did you not read all the instances in which I implemented your proposed changes? Are you saying that GA reviewers are infallible, and that one cannot ever disagree with any issue that one raises? Nightscream (talk) 23:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm saying that the review is over. If you disagree with the outcome your choices are to renominate at GAN or ask for a reassessment at WP:GAR. Malleus Fatuorum 23:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry if my removal of the old template was not the right procedure. I thought perhaps it was what had to be done in order to renominate the article, a conclusion I reached in error in part due AirCorn's advice regarding the GA2. There was no need for the accusatory tone in your revert's edit summary. In any event, take care. Nightscream (talk) 23:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

You must think I'm a fucking idiot to come here with bollocks like that. AirCorn quite clearly advised you to delete Talk:Saga (comic book)/GA2, which you still haven't done, not the article history. Malleus Fatuorum 02:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello Malleus. It seems there are those that like to put a leash around your neck. (How stupid!) Pesky is always talking about wisdom of animals; when was a kid, we (dad, brother & I) were in the woods & came across a racoon caught in a muskrat trap; the coon had been in process of knawing its own hand off, in order to free itself. (We freed it, of course.) The experience made big impression on me. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

In case you're interested. User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Do_we_need_.27Did_you_know.27_anyway.3F --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:57, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

This lurker was interested. Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 15:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Why do people feel that Jimbo's talk page is the place for this sort of discussion? He rarely gets involved and couldn't do much about the issue if he wanted to. Surely the proper place for this is the Talk:Main Page - not that it would get very far. Richerman (talk) 17:00, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

In general they should use the appropriate sub-page of Wikipedia:Village pump, but Jimbo's talk page is turning into a little corner of Wikipediocracy on Wikipedia. Johnbod (talk) 17:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It's where you go to get noticed. Parrot of Doom 18:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No, that's here. Jimbo's page is purely for sycophancy. Keristrasza (talk) 23:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Because people are better-behaved there, as a rule. I think being watched by Jimbo (he rarely joins in), and the occasional journalist and other outsider, constrains bullies and elevates the quality of debate: there is very little good rhetoric here for a project that is nominally built on persuasion and consensus-building and, as a rule, it's better on Jimbo's page.

Malleus, I like to canvass the views of those I respect. If it annoys you, I'll stop pointing you to stuff. When something touches a topic you've shown an interest in in the past, I want to hear your perspective. Obviously, I don't expect you to dive into everything. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't annoy me at all, but I do share Richerman's concern. Malleus Fatuorum 02:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It's like a moderated village pump: he occasionally kicks people out, shuts down boring or inappropriate threads and redacts others' comments. I like that. What are your misgivings? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of a talk page is to discuss with the talk page's owner. Discussion on Jimbo's talk page feels a little like running to teacher to me, especially as he rarely seems to have anything sensible to say. Malleus Fatuorum 15:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)