Talk:Real ale

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The flag on the Real Ale page talks about merging Real Ale and Real Ale Brewing Process. Most of the discussion on here is about Moving (renaming) Real Ale as Cask Conditioned Ale.

Beware! I trust any decision made will recognise the common currency of the words Real Ale which are in the dictionary and used by drinkers, publicans, brewers and Camra alike; whereas Cask Conditioned is a technical term used originally only by brewers, though understood by Camra (and most of its members), most publicans (!) and many drinkers.

Real Ale is a CAMRA term. Real Ale refers to cask conditioned ale and bottle conditioned beer.

The term most people know and use is cask ale. Real Ale is declining in use to a few older CAMRA members.

I disagree: The term "Real Ale" with Camra's definition, is that used in major English dictionaries, and widely accepted. Cask Ale, or Hand Pull are potentially ambiguous terms, as anything could be pulled through a hand pump, and as has been made clear in the main article, it is possible to add extraneous CO2 to Cask (conditioned) Ale - at which point it ceases to be classed as Real Ale. "Older Camra members are more likely to talk about "real draught beer", or "traditional draught beer" - the term 'draught', correctly, meaning drawn, as opposed to pushed out by gas.

The term Real Ale was adopted for two reasons:

to simplfy the name of Camra (formerly the Campaign for the Revitilisation of Ale, now the Campaign for Real Ale)

to extend the definition to appropriate packaged beers - i.e. Real Ale in a bottle

I disagree with the statement that the term Real Ale is falling out of use with fans in preference to 'cask ale'. Many young students (myself included) use the words Real Ale. It is acknowledged that the amount of young people and students drinking Real Ale is increasing. I actually rarely hear the word 'cask ale' used and I live in a University city! As a note I doubt that a lot of students know that it is a CAMRA term! --Pudduh 12:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although the term Real Ale was originated and defined by CAMRA, it is commonly used and understood among most beer drinkers in the UK whether or not they are CAMRA members, or even real ale drinkers. As others have pointed out, cask conditioned ale is only one form of real ale, with bottle conditioned beers also falling within the definition. The term cask conditioned ale is therefore appropriately used when there is a need to distinguish between these two types. It is not appropriate as the article heading when bottle conditioned ales are also discussed. Rodparkes 01:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the CAMRA info I have includes many bottled beers (those that are self-carbonating with yeast, and not force carbonated), suggesting that, at least in the eyes of the CAMRA, this material should be updated. Thoughts? -- Kaszeta 13:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bottle-conditioned beers are indeed real ale, and something that CAMRA wants to encourage. The article doesn't mention them specifically, but it does talk about fermentation "in the cask or bottle". PeteVerdon 13:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This fermentation process is by no means unique to ale. It is also commonly used in any number of traditional beers, notably the dubbel and tripel beers from Belgium.

This doesn't make sense. Dubbels and tripels are both types of ale. This paragraph should mention cask-conditioned lagers. For that matter, we should consider merging Real ale brewing process and moving the whole article to cask conditioning. Thoughts? Dforest 06:47, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but "cask-conditioned lagers" is almost, but not quite, a contradiction in terms. Lagering is a process of storing Bottom Fermented beers in the brewery until almost all the fermentation has stopped. However, if this BEER (not "lager" which is a bastard term) is casked (or bottled) without any filtration or pasteurisation, then it is still "Real Ale" (as long as it is not them pressurised). Ale is the basis of all beers, whether hopped or not. Beer is hopped Ale; some Belgian "beers" have few, if any hops, but have other fruits added to the ale. All German and Czech beers are just that - beers. Not lagers. It happens that most of them are bottom fermented; whereas most UK (and Belgian) beers (including some ersatz lagers) are top fermented. The difference is only in the type of yeast. Sadly, particularly in the bottled form, some of these beers are then filtered and/or pasteurised and bottled under CO2 pressure.

• I'm not sure I agree with the delineation immediately above. Beer is a catch-all term. It's commonly accepted that ales refer to beer fermented with top cropping yeast and lagers to those done with bottom cropping yeast strains. This may not be a clear reflection of what you find in a dictionary, but it is how the terms are used in home- and commercial-brewing context. Cask conditioned lagers, however, are indeed an impossibility, since one of the main points of the lagering process is to cease fermentation and cause the yeast to flocculate (settle) out of solution. Since Real Ale is more of a classification than anything, it seems like perhaps it should remain separate from the time being. MalkavianX 05:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not expert but have had beers described as "cask conditioned lagers" a couple of times in London pubs - Harviestoun Sheihallon (sp?) and another one, the name of which escapes me. I have always assumed these are bottom fermented and therefore NOT ales, but as they aren't actually "lagered" I suppose you should say that term shouldn't apply (though then the same applies to many keg beers that are described as "lagered", but due to shoddy production aren't actually lagered properly or at all). As there doesn't seem to be a generic term for bottom fermented beers other than the often misleading "lager", what do we call cas conditioned beers of this type? --SandyDancer 14:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• That's an interesting question. I wonder in that kind of situation cask conditioned maybe implies that the beer was lagered on its lees rather than being filtered at some point? Being from the US it's a term that I (sadly :() don't encounter all that often here, so I'm not sure what it can or is required to mean. In order to be cask conditioned, does the yeast have to be present, even though it's (theoretically) too cold for any secondary fermentation to occur? MalkavianX 03:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to propose moving Real ale to Cask conditioning.

The reasons for this are threefold:

1. Real ale is CAMRA's term, but the proper term is cask-conditioned ale.
2. The article currently focuses on cask, and not bottle conditioning.
3. As the article states, "this fermentation process is by no means unique to ale", i.e. lagers can also be cask conditioned.

Comments, please?

--Dforest 07:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose move. Indeed the term "real ale" was invented by CAMRA, but it is now in common usage. I have no opinion on a proposed move from this title to something proper, but if it is to be cask-conditioned ale that would be wrong and just as bad as the term 'real ale'. Nobody brews ale anymore. Ale is brewed without hops or other preservatives. One should also note that beers can also be bottle-conditioned. Jooler 18:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Support It sounds like a good idea to me. Why don't you make the move? --Daniel11 22:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ale, the modern meaning, refers to a large group of different beer styles which share a common fermentation process. Ales include bitter, porter and stout, etc, so plenty of breweries are brewing ale!. Feebtlas 23:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. moving to cask conditioning is odd, as this is a verb not a noun. Real ale is the common term in use. There is no reason why the article shoulnt cover bottle conditioned ale too. Lagers arent really cask conditioned in the same way - they are indeed lagered, but the historical issues are different. Justinc 02:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed a noun—the name of a process—in the sense of "Real ale undergoes cask conditioning." We already have an article on bottle conditioning that could be expanded. If we move this to cask conditioning, we might make real ale a bolded redirect, and the first paragraph would note that "real ale can also refer to bottle-conditioned beer." IMO, real ale usually refers to cask-conditioned beer and sometimes to bottle-conditioned beer. Otherwise it is just a synonym for craft beer. Another option is to move the non-CAMRA-specfic parts to cask conditioning and keep a short article here on CAMRA's definition of real ale.

What about the historical issues of lager? Can you elaborate? Perhaps that should be expanded on as well. --Dforest 07:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is that although historically all beers, including lagers, and for that matter wine were matured in barrels, and many still are (eg Lambic), cask conditioning as we know it in England really refers to the specific ageing of ale in barrels in the cellar of the pub, which became a necessity when brewers particularly in Burton started mass producing beer and no longer had space to store it for maturing at the brewery. This was the opposite of what wine producers were doing at the time, where chateau botttling started to become a mark of quality, as the producer would know the state of the product when sold to a large extent (though some control was still in place is the brewers owned large numbers of the pubs). Bottle conditioning on the other hand doesnt have much of an intersting history: pasteurisation was only applied to beer extremely recently, and so all beer was necessarily bottle conditioned. Which is a good argument to merge it into real ale, as it only exists is a campaigning term reflecting this. Justinc 15:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I'm not comfortable with the use of the term real ale, because even the keg stuff is really ale. Ale is about brewing process and the yeast, not if it's pasteurised or not. Real ale is about equal (just as an example) to saying that Kia's aren't real cars because car lovers aren't too keen on them. Cask conditioned ale seems better to me. If it was to be moved could we agree that we would call it cask conditioned ale, rather than cask conditioning, as the noun is preferable to the verb. Feebtlas 03:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Feebtlas, cask conditioning is not a verb, but a gerund. Gerunds, by definition, are nouns, and by well-established precedent, acceptable for article titles. If we call it Cask-conditioned ale, it not only excludes lager, but cider, perry and mead, which for centuries have been cask conditioned. If the article is describing a brewing process, than its title should use the gerund form, for example, brewing, cooking, baking, frying, steaming, boiling and nearly all the articles under Cooking#Cooking_techniques. --Dforest 01:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please go back and read again, I was refering to something that had been said earlier in the thread. It should exclude lager, cider, perry and mead because we are talking about ale here, and I thought this article was about a type of beer rather than a brewing process? Feebtlas 14:14, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I am happiest to leave the article under the heading 'real ale', because, as noted above, this has become the most wiedly used term. It is clear that we need articles entitled both 'real ale' and 'bottle conditioned beer' (which I prefer as being slightly less abstract than 'bottle conditioning'), and I think 'bcb' should point to 'ra' rather than the reverse. TobyJ 17:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose move. -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Abstain. I would support a move to cask-conditioned ale, but since User:Dforest opposes that, I am ambivalent. If you move it to cask conditioning, you are moving the reader to a different topic. S/he wanted to know about real ale — not lager, cider, perry, etc. — goethean ॐ 16:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The article should definitely be left under the heading Real Ale, it is the common term by which those who will be likely to look for the page will want to find it, since it is the term that has permeated through the industry and society at large. The drink is referred to as such by retailers (both in supermarkets and pubs), brewers and even in, for instance, journalism. By all means have other sub threads linking to the Real Ale page and have other titles for the brew redirecting here but I fail to see how it makes any sense to change the heading. As for the pedantry of claiming that it isn't truly ale as it isn't hopped; "by the end of the [17th] century the distinction between ale and beer was becoming blurred. From James Lightbody's Every Man his Own Gauger, 1695, it appears that ale too was hopped at this period, though more ligtly than beer." (Beer and Skittles, Richard Boston, 1976). Holypeanut 13:24, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Move to Cask Conditioning or even Cask Conditioned. Real Ale is in the standard dictionaries, so why not in this Encyclopaedia? The terms Cask Conditioned/cask conditioning could be explained on the brewing pages; and referred to in the pages on real ale. I personally prefer the terms Real Draught/(Bottled) Ale, or Traditional Draught/(Bottled) Ale to the simple term Real Ale; but by its simplicity, Real Ale is the accepted term.

The reason for the term Real Draught (Ale) is because the word Draught, means "drawn", as in drawn from a cask - either directly through a tap, or via a handpump or even electric pump. It is not pushed using CO2 or mixed gases as with keg beers. Real is a reference to the fact that the beer is still living (not being filtered and/or pasteurised); and that it is stored without the use of extraneous gas pressure. Again, "traditional" applied to the same meanings as "real" because that was how beer was traditionally brewed, stored and served. Filtering and Pasteurising, and artificial carbonation (to allegedly replace the natural condition of the beer) were later developments to increase the shelf life of the beer.

The word "draught" became corrupted to mean any "bulk" beer, (i.e. not contained in portion sizes - pint or half pint bottles, etc.). Hence the need to use the adjective 'Real' or 'Traditional' to identify the genuine draught from the pressurised beer. (Thus it is wrong, though apparently legal to use the word 'draught' in the name 'Draught Guiness' or 'draught lager'. It is patently absurd to call a bottled or canned beer 'Draught Guinness' or whatever).

The term 'bottled' as opposed to draught, hopefully explains itself.

• Oppose merger between Real Ale and Real Ale Brewing. But there is no need to have an entry for Real Ale Brewing. Just have an entry for Brewing, and then, at the end of explaining the common brewing process, explain the difference processes that are then undertaken to brew real ale (in bulk or in bottle) and 'keg' (brewery conditioned) and smooth-flow beers.

Incidentally 'keg' and 'lager' are both bastard terms (they have no logical parentage) that have come to mean something different in UK brewing. A 'keg' is any small cask - so why this term has been subverted to mean brewery-conditioned beer is purely down to the marketing boys. 'Lager' is German for 'store' and is a term for one of the processes in brewing bottom fermented (as opposed to top fermented) beers. Logically, then, it could be applied to dark beers as well as very light beers. These very light beers are arguably Pilsner style beers; though in general, UK "keg lagers" are nowt like proper Czech beers. (Pilsen being a town in the former Czechoslovakia; and I assume now in the Czech republic)

• Oppose As others have said above, Real Ale has become the common term for cask- or bottle-conditioned beers. I would even go so far as to say that the terms "real ale" and "cask-conditioned ale" are synonymous, although "real ale" also includes "bottle-conditioned ale". There is a difference between "beer" and "ale" (in that ale is a style of beer) but I would let that ride as there are comparatively few ales (ie brewed without hops) brewed today. Kev ^(talk) 15:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: Seems country-specific. In the US, I've almost never heard of the term real ale but I've seen pleanty of cask ales. Even the name "real ale" seems very POV to me. What about Germany, Belgium, etc?

Just a comment - if it wasn't for the Campaign for Real Ale in the UK, and the publicity and so on generated, it is unlikely that the US would have any Cask Ale. I also understand that this is all too often spoilt at the point of sale by carbonation (addition of CO2). Real Ale is Cask Ale stored and served without any extraneous gas pressure. It is a stricter definition, and importantly so.

• Oppose I would agree that there is a difference between "ale" and "beer". The conditions for "Real Ale" are strict and it is a dictionary term and is the accepted phrase in the UK. People come here because they have specifically searched for this. If they search for "Real Ale" and find Cask Conditioning instead then they will go elsewhere on the web to find out because they are not looking for Cask Conditioning! We will be doing the Wikipedia viewing public a disservice if we merge these topics. --Pudduh 12:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - The terminology is somewhat incorrect. Its also attributed to nominator's valid points. However, the term has become much too general. Keep the article in place to provide accessibility and prevent ambiguity. -Zero^Talk 17:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is to point out that there is a (quite popular) Microbrewery in Blanco, TX called "Real Ale." There may be some confusion down the road because of this. -spacemonkey4^Talk 08:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to propose it right now, but perhaps merging these two articles would be appropriate? Personally, I'd like to see the articles remain separate, but I'm not sure in quite what way to distinguish them. DWaterson 18:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose. "Real ale" deserves its own article - it is an important concept in its own right in the UK and we don't want to bog the "ale" article down with it. --SandyDancer 14:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose. "Ale" and "Real ale" are not the same thing at all, although "Real Ales" are a subset of "Ales". Kev ^(talk) 15:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]