Talk:Quebec Diploma of College Studies

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Diploma of Collegial Studies → Diploma of College Studies – This page was moved here recently, by somebody claiming boldly there is "no such thing as a Diploma of College Studies." This person not only has a weak grasp of the meaning of the word "collegial" in English, but obviously didn't bother looking at the General and Vocational Colleges Act, enacted in both French and English by the National Assembly, in which the official name "Diploma of College Studies" is used (for example in section 42). 96.46.195.123 (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree It may clear up conflict if a vague word like Collegial is removed to a more well known word. Jamison^Guestbook_Userboxes 08:49, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. It seems both variants are commonly used in English, both in and out of official context. There seems to be no agreement on how to conclusively establish one variant as superior to the other. As an aside, I'd like to remind editors that this is the English Wikipedia, so statements should be posted in English; statements not in English were ignored. Aervanath (talk) 14:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Diploma of College Studies → Diploma of Collegial Studies – Regarding the archived move seen above, I think it should be reverted. I graduated from an English CEGEP in Quebec and my diploma says "Diploma of Collegial Studies" on it. I believe the reason for the move was that it was thought that "collegial" meant "of or pertaining to colleagues," but it does have a secondary definition meaning "of or pertaining to colleges" (synonym of collegiate), as seen on its Wiktionary entry and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. The supporting link from the editor who proposed the page move is broken, and the argument that "college is a more common word" is irrelevant.

Besides the text that appears on my diploma from Dawson College, the largest CEGEP in Quebec, several authoritative institutions refer to it as a "Diploma of Collegial Studies," including the two largest English universities and three largest English CEGEPs in Quebec:

• McGill University
• Concordia University (Under Bachelor's Degree)
• The Government of Canada
• Cégep@Distance
• Autorité des marchés financiers
• Vanier College
• Dawson College
• John Abbott College

There are also (fewer) sources that refer to it as a "Diploma of College Studies" but this is likely due to the fact that some people have come up with different translations of the official French name of the diploma. According to WP:CRITERIA titles should be recognizable and precise. WP:ON gives some insight on how to deal with official names versus most commonly used names, and a Google.ca search reveals 134,000 results for "diploma of collegial studies" versus 79,200 for "diploma of college studies."--Relisted Cúchullain ^t/c 16:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC) —JmaJeremy^TALK_CONTRIBS 15:51, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Being a college student in Montreal, I have never heard about a "diploma of college studies." Diplomas that are delivered by the minister of Education of Quebec are all identified as "diplomas of collegial studies," from the French term Diplôme d'études collégiales.

Instead of renaming the article with the English translation, I propose implementing the "real" name that was coined when CEGEPs began delivering diplomas, that is, "Diplôme d'études collégiales." If an article already exists under the previous name, we should consider merging the content of this article in Diplôme d'études collégiales. We would then end up with a more clear and complete article on the diploma delivered by MELS after completing a college program in the province of Quebec. --BScMScMD (talk) 16:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The French title (as well as Diploma of Collegial Studies) redirects to this page. According to WP:ON "English usage overrides usage in other languages, so other languages would chiefly become relevant if the topic had never been described or discussed in English prior to the writing of the Wikipedia article," so I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to list it under the French title, but certainly it would seem to make more sense to use the generally-accepted English translation rather than a modified mistranslation.

By the way, I'm glad there's something we can agree upon, BScMScMD ;-) —JmaJeremy^TALK_CONTRIBS 18:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Although the nomination lists cases of usage of "Diploma of Collegial Studies" by individual English-language CEGEPS, you can easily also find cases of "Diploma of College Studies", for instance:
  • John Abbott College
  • Dawson College
  • Marianopolis College

The issue is complicated by the fact that it's also common to use the French term D.E.C. even in English. Given this uncertainty, we should prefer the "College" version because it seems to be used by MELS (Ministère de l'Éducation, du Loisir et du Sport = Ministry of Education), for instance at http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/sections/demandeAdmission/index_en.asp and elsewhere. The lede should mention both variations. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above, WP:ON and WP:COMMONNAME say that the most commonly used term should be used as the title, which in this case is Diploma of Collegial Studies... —JmaJeremy^TALK_CONTRIBS 07:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME is most applicable when there is a strong preponderance. For instance, we are far more likely to see "Bill Clinton" than "William Jefferson Clinton", or "United Kingdom" rather than "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". In this case, however, the numerical usage of both is roughly equal, certainly within the same ballpark. And actually, for Dawson College at least, if you compare Google hit counts using the "verbatim" search option:

1. site:dawsoncollege.qc.ca "diploma of collegial studies"
2. site:dawsoncollege.qc.ca "diploma of college studies"

the "college" variant gets substantially more. For John Abbott, Vanier, and Marianopolis, the numbers more or less match. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True, but don't you think we should predominantly consider the fact that the diplomas delivered to students graduating from an English CEGEP like Dawson College, Vanier College, or Marianopolis College are all identified as a "Diploma of Collegial Studies"? --BScMScMD (talk) 14:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, if we analyse the real French term, Diplôme d'études collégiales, we can see that the word collégiales is in fact an adjective. Therefore, the English translation should be "Diploma of Collegial Studies," which more precisely respects the original lexical category and resembles the French term. --BScMScMD (talk) 15:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your first point, I don't have a paper copy of the relevant diploma available to examine, and couldn't find anything on Google Images. Perhaps you could upload an image? Regarding the second point, it sounds like WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH: you are arguing from first principles about what the English version ought to be. One could plausibly choose "collegiate", "collegial", or "college" (it is quite common in English to use a noun as an adjective), but since WP:COMMONNAMES doesn't settle the issue it seems best to go with what the Ministry of Education uses. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 17:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Ministère de l'Éducation, du Loisir et du Sport actually uses both translations in their publications. However, they have a tendency to use "Diploma of College Studies" slightly more often than "Diploma of Collegial Studies." For example,

• The Certification of College Studies;
• Quebec School System (in the "college education" section).

Therefore, we might as well go with what the Ministry of Education uses the most often and keep the current article and redirects unchanged. --BScMScMD (talk) 02:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose move from Diploma of College Studies to proposed Diploma of Collegial Studies. 1) The term "Diploma of College Studies" is demonstrably an official translation of "Diplôme d'études collégiales"; 2) unlike "collegiate" the English term "collegial" is not unambiguously related to "college"; 3) No clearly demonstrable favor of "Collegial Studies" over "College Studies". A weak decision would have both English terms redirect to 'Diplôme d'études collégiales'. --→gab 24dot grab← 15:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. There are some reasonable arguments here for both cases, but just for the sake of reference, I've uploaded a (redacted) copy of my diploma from Dawson College (right). —JmaJeremy•Ƭalk•Cont 17:07, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you should redact the signature as well. Though isn't the red seal subject to copyright restrictions? 70.49.127.65 (talk) 23:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose/Comment This is but another example of a legislatively uni-lingual state, with a relatively large population with a different language. Because the government only names things officially in French, the English population has to cobble together their own names and terminology. I would suggest that the article name should follow the example of the closest comparable province, Ontario. In Ontario the English name is Ontario College Diploma, and the French name is Diplôme d'études collégiales de l'Ontario. So if there is any renaming, which I see no reason at this time, it should be to Quebec College Diploma.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 04:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, the terms "Diploma of College Studies" / "Diploma of Collegial Studies" are in actual use, so either of these would be preferable to simply inventing a translation. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 05:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We should use the official translation that the Ministère de l'Éducation, du Loisir et du Sport du Québec uses in their documents, that is, Diploma of College Studies. By the way, we should not invent a translation for the name to resemble the existing one in Ontario. Remain with the official terminology. And after all, the other names redirect to this page... --BScMScMD (talk) 21:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem in that is both translations are used in different documentation released in English by the MELS, and there is no official English terminology for things in Québec as French is the only official language, anything in English is a translation subject to the whims of the translator at the time. I've seen English documents released by the Québec government that made no sense whatsoever as they were "word for word" translations. A "Diploma of College Studies" is a "Quebec College Diploma": the term "College Diploma" is used in everyday English, and prefacing the term with Quebec specifies where it was issued in the same sense as saying a "British Law Degree", even though in the UK it is called a "Bachelor of Laws". "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title", and one common name for the certificate received after completing a college program is "College Diploma". --Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 22:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is one problem though. Most editors, as seen above, have already agreed to use the "official" terminology used by the government of Quebec. External links in the above text prove that the Ministry of Education uses the term "Diploma of College Studies" in all of its English publications. As such, renaming the article "Quebec College Diploma" is not the best idea not only because of the former explanation but also because the province of Quebec is the only Canadian province that has obligatory CEGEP after high school in order to enter university for applicants under the age of 21. Addionally, since Quebec is the only place where CEGEPs actually exist, modifying the term used in the province of Ontario would be inaccurate because we are not talking about the same diploma, meaning that they are not "worth" the same. In Quebec, there are CEGEPs, and in Ontario, there are Community Colleges. Two similar institutions in one way, but very different in another... --BScMScMD (talk) 22:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I am not proposing a rename, I prefer the current name, as one of the editors seen above. Second of all, cégeps are only one part of the college system in Quebec. A college diploma is a prerequisite for university admissions in Quebec, many go to cégep, but others go to colleges that are not cégeps. Third of all, I used Ontario as one example, and as an easy comparison, they also publish things in both languages, the French documents conform to recommendations by the OQLF, English is the "mother tongue" of a majority of people in Ontario and use common English terms. Ontario has a comparable "College" system, in size and scope, where you can attend programs that get you into university, or attend programs that are vocational in nature. Fourth of all, the English Wikipedia is read by people from all over the world, with varying levels of English capabilities, and local dialects, limiting terminology in an article or title to a specific minority dialect of English makes it less easy to read and understand for people who do not know that specific dialect. It is preferable to use terminology of native speakers and not word for word translations (literal translations). WP:CRITERIA - Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision - taking into account a "global" viewpoint, not just locally. Fifth of all, I don't think there is a fifth of all, but I figured I was on a roll! Puis c'est le temps d'aller manger de toute façon. --Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 23:32, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True, but as I pointed out earlier, we should use the official translation, the one used by the Ministère de l'Éducation, du Loisir et du Sport du Québec in each and every single English publication or document directly emitted from the government of Quebec. Additionally, since the French term is "Diplôme d'études collégiales," the English translation "Diploma of College Studies" should be used, without including the word "Quebec" in the title. Of course, the word-for-word translation matches the government's term. Moreover, if users are searching for information on the Diploma of College Studies emitted in the province of Quebec, the "Diplôme d'études collégiales," they should probably start their research by finding the real name of the diploma, the one used by the government. If you want to facilitate this task, you may create a redirect with a name resembling "Quebec College Diploma," if such a page still does not exist. Also, in Quebec, a college is not the same type of institution as a CEGEP. Colleges are considered private high schools or vocational education facilities (and in some rare cases private CEGEPs). For example, Collège Letendre is a private French high school in Laval, whereas the Collège d'enseignement en immobilier is a private vocational education school... I'd like to continue, but I'm really running out of time! --BScMScMD (talk) 23:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Being the only place on the globe where CEGEP is obligatory for entrance in a Quebec university under the age of 21, the province of Quebec has built a some kind of reputation regarding education. As such, many people around the globe have learned that a Diploma of College Studies is a Diplôme d'études collégiales, which is delivered by the government of Quebec. Also, the article mentions where the diplomas are given. --BScMScMD (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, you like to repeat useless information, and misinformation. Natural English speakers generally do not use words like "obligatory" & "emitted". This is the English Wikipedia, and as such we follow English Wikipedia guidelines, not French Wikipedia guidelines for article names, sur le Wiki francophone les titres suivent plus souvent la norme d'être "officel", mais le Wiki anglophone c'est le nom commun qui prévaut: ex: North Korea (et non: Democratic People's Republic of Korea). C'est pas mal évident que un diplôme est émis après avoir complèter des études, alors en colloquialisme anglophone on dit un "diplôme collégial", le "d'études" est compris et n'apporte rien. La norme est aussi de rattacher le titre au sujet, ainsi en anglais ça deviens "Quebec College Diploma" vue qu'il existe plusieurs "College Diploma"s.

A cégep by definition is a public college, and their is no such thing as a private cégep. Yes their are some private high schools called 'collèges' or 'collegiate institutes', but they are not colleges in the modern sense of education. For your benefit please read fr:Enseignement collégial au Québec, and consult fr:Liste des établissements d'enseignement collégial du Québec.

How people search is up to them, and they will use terms that are familiar to them in their language. Yes, some people outside of Québec are familiar with the Québec education system, but the average person is not and it makes sense to use universally recognized terminology.

I am very familiar with the Québec education system, having gone through it, and am also very familiar with the "English" North American schooling systems as a parent of both American and Canadian students, and the spouse of an educator (in multiple North American systems and levels also). I am very comfortable explaining the differences, similarities, between them.

I am both a native French Canadian (Québécois) speaker, and a native Quebec/Canadian/American English speaker, I learned "both" languages parallel - from native speakers of both languages. Québec English is a small dialect of English, and has many "uniqueness-es" that are not found elsewhere, due to being within the larger french speaking community, and as such many terms are not known to "outsiders", what might seem natural to you, is unheard of, or has cumbersome verbiage, to the rest of the world. --Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 01:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rule of thumb for Wikipedia titles: Use what would be used in a conversation. In this aspect, people talk about having a college degree, or college diploma, not a diploma of college studies, regardless of it's "technical" correctness according to some arbitrary non-English government agency.--ZooFamily (talk) 14:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a reliable and acceptable source of information. Therefore, the two proofs you submitted are useless. Additionally, private CEGEPs do exist in the province of Quebec. Do some research, and you will find several private institutions, such as Marionapolis College. Lastly, criticizing my English can be considered a personal attack and can be punished according to Wikipedia guidelines.

As you indicated earlier, I am also "a native French Canadian (Québécois) speaker" and "a native Quebec/Canadian/American English speaker." I learned both languages simultaneously. --BScMScMD (talk) 22:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No one is using wikipedia as a source, what are you talking about? What proofs are you referring to? What has been nicely, and repeatedly pointed out to you are Wikipedia guidelines, and possibly examples or resources to educate yourself. A cégep by definition is a public college there is no such thing as a private cégep, Marionapolis is not a cégep, but a private college. No one has criticized your English, however I did point out some non-native/natural English usage in your rantings.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 22:46, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BScMScMD, you are showing your Ignorance. You can go to the (in French) MELS website, where it clearly states that cégeps are public colleges, and that there are also private subsidized colleges that, like cégeps, provide training programs of two and three years leading to a « DEC ». You need to step outside of your little box and see that not everyone in the world speaks Quebec English, and that a French government agency is not an authority on what terminology English speaking people use.--MrBoire (talk) 23:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is becoming uncivil (see WP:CIVILITY). It might be time to close it, since we are now getting sidetracked in discussions of options which were not part of the proposed move, and the move as originally proposed has not met with consensus support during an extended period of time. If someone actually wanted to go ahead and propose a third option for the title, the cleanest way to do it would be to start a new requested move, where the proposed new title would be automatically announced in the usual way at the WP:RM page. (For what it's worth, I personally would be strongly opposed). — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 23:24, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.