Talk:List of soap opera villains/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about List of soap opera villains. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

EastEnders villains BBC Page

This source [1] was used for several of the EastEnders characters on the list but I noticed that it had been removed from some of the characters and replaced with other sources. Was there any reason for this?77.97.55.147 (talk) 23:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Possibly because it's a primary source or possibly because the characters had too many references and there were better sources available (see above section on having too many sources). I can't tell you for sure because I don't know which characters had it removed, when and by whom. Even if it was me, I can only guess at my reasons at the time, but probably one of the two reasons I gave. I usually leave an edit summary explaining my edits. If it was someone else, I cannot speak for them. — anemone projectors 09:53, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know when or who removed them but the characters featured in the source that have either had it removed or it is not being used for are: Nick Cotton, Phil Mitchell, Janine Butcher, Sean Slater, Den Watts, Archie Mitchell, Tony King, Steve Owen and Stella Crawford. From memory some of them may not have had the source used in the first place. If you removed any of them yourself, does this help ring any bells or jog your memory? Also I noticed page 2 of the source seems to be missing or unavailable.77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:12, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

I would say it's more likely that it's due to the number of references, as all those characters already have 3 or more. Janine has 5, Phil has 6, and I do seem to recall removing some references from certain EastEnders characters, and I'm pretty sure Janine, Phil, Nick and Archie were among them. So that was probably the reference I removed. — anemone projectors 19:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

I see. Well if there are better references for them then that makes sense.77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:20, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Picture Captions

In the source for Mel Maguire in Coronation Street from the Daily Mirror the caption of one of the article's pictures which she features in describes her as Nathan's "evil sidekick" but it is not in the main body of the text in the article. Similarly the first source for Ben Mitchell from EastEnders that was added from Metro was an article announcing that he was going to kill Heather from before the storyline aired, and a picture of Ben in the article had a caption which stated "pure evil". Can picture caption text be used as sources even if the main body of the text does not contain the relevant words such as "villain" or "evil" but the picture captions do?77.97.55.147 (talk) 14:02, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Can these sources be used then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:53, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Again my opinion is yes they can be used. — anemone projectors 15:01, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I'll edit the one for Mel then so it is presentable.77.97.55.147 (talk) 15:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Owen Armstrong

Can this link be used [2]82.132.215.52 (talk) 15:16, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I think so. — anemone projectors 15:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

So is this article saying, "he was never meant to be a villain, but he is one regardless" then?77.97.55.147 (talk) 16:53, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes I believe so. — anemone projectors 18:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Unless I'm reading it wrong, but it looks like he's calling Owen a "baddie" and as you say, a villain regardless that he wasn't meant to be. Also, "Owen was in the same league as other notorious Weatherfield villains" says to me that he's a villain but not as bad as some others. — anemone projectors 19:00, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Should Owen be added then based on this article?77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:21, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Should I add Owen or not?77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:53, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion yes. — anemone projectors 15:00, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I'll add him then.77.97.55.147 (talk) 15:41, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Ray Megaher

The bloke who plays Alf in home and away mentioned that he has played villains on Prisoner [3] could we get the name of each character and add them?82.132.218.170 (talk) 23:29, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The source mentions Ernest Craven, so he can be added. The other characters he played were Geoff Butler and Kurt Renner, but to add them I think would be WP:SYNTH, so should be avoided. — anemone projectors 09:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Neighbours

Could a source from Facebook be used if it's the official Neighbours page? As this link calls Tim Collins a villain [4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.186.73 (talk) 08:00, 21 June 2017 (UTC) Or do you allow the word evil to be used for qualifying for the list? As I actually found a link that calls him evil.[5]

I think the second one from What's on TV may be OK to use.77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

We'll never know since @AnemoneProjectors: doesn't give advice!.

FYI I've been away all week, but I'm pretty much the only person who replies here. Go with the What's on TV source. I would say Facebook should be avoided generally. — anemone projectors 09:51, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors: Tim's addition keeps getting reverted why is this???????82.68.43.124 (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Not sure but hopefully it won't happen again. — anemone projectors 09:03, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Bad dads

This Digital Spy article [6] uses the accepted term of Bad so can they be added to the list?82.132.232.20 (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I think it means "bad" as in "rubbish" not "bad" as in "evil".77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Would you agree @AnemoneProjectors:

I agree that it means rubbish dads rather than evil ones. — anemone projectors 17:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Fi Browning

Someone added Fi Browning to the EastEnders section of the page, along with this source [7]. The source does not refer to Fi as being a "villain" or "evil" and I removed it but it was then reverted. Every time I subsequently tried to remove it, it was put back even though it clearly does not fit the criteria for the page. Is there a reason why this is being done?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:07, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Jd22292 removed the edit initially, saying that a better source should be found, and removal should be a last resort. I have accepted the last edit with the removal though, because imo only correctly sourced entries should be allowed. Otherwise we might as well go back to allowing original research and just have unsourced entries. Sources that don't say a character is a villain or evil have always been removed, and if it's the only source, then the character is also removed. I've checked and there are no sources calling Fi evil or a villain - only the plot with Max is being called evil but that isn't the same thing. — anemone projectors 17:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me interrupting; could this link get used for Fi ([8])?82.132.219.181 (talk) 16:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

A user has added back in Fi Browning, so I have accepted it and added these two references that do imply that she is a villain. NZ Footballs Conscience^(talk) 23:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Both sources imply she is a villain but do not use that exact word directly anywhere in the text to describe her as such. The Mirror source says that she and Max have "evil secrets" but does not directly refer to Fi as an individual as a villain or as "evil". The picture caption for Max describes him as evil, but not Fi, and Max is already on this list. Are these sources OK to use now? Have the rules been changed?77.97.55.147 (talk) 14:43, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

How about this then, she is on the list of Inside Soap awards for Bad girl, implies that she is a villain/Evil [9]. NZ Footballs Conscience^(talk) 23:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Again it implies she is but doesn't use the exact words "villain" or "evil" in a descriptive way. I was under the belief that sources calling characters "bad boys" or "bad girls" weren't being used because they were too generic. The characters may not be inherently bad or "bad enough" or "villains" at all. Plus the list would grow massively because so many characters would be added. I think that the decision was made because if "bad boy or girl" sources were used, it would be hard for users to know where to draw the line. It was discussed on previous discussion pages, if they are still visible. That might give you more clarification.77.97.55.147 (talk) 14:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

What is the general consensus about these sources?77.97.55.147 (talk) 12:38, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Problem solved by The Guardian – "Meanwhile, the raison d’etre of the show’s current villain, Fi Browning, has been to restock the Queen Vic with craft beer, breaking poor Mick Carter’s heart as the cockney lifeblood is drained out of his beloved boozer." - JuneGloom07 Talk 18:52, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Well found. I was about to add this one from the Daily Star [10] which calls Fi Max's "evil helper" but I shan't need to bother now. Yours is better.77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

I think you should still add it. - JuneGloom07 Talk 23:05, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

OK I will.77.97.55.147 (talk) 18:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Jacqueline Pirie characters

This source [11] from the Daily Record features an interview with Jacqueline Pirie and starts with the following opening sentence: "From soap villain to crime writer". It chiefly and firstly refers to her role as Linda Sykes in Coronation Street. Further down it refers to her also playing Tina Dingle in Emmerdale, referring to the character as "feisty". As the article says "soap villain" and not "villains" in the plural, presumably it is referring to her Corrie character and not her Emmerdale one. It also quotes Pirie as saying she loved playing the "baddie" in the soaps. It does not directly refer to Linda or Tina as "villains" but the inference from the first line is that it is referring to Linda. Linda is already on this list. Can Tina be added based on the strength of this article?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Is the source appropriate to use for Tina?77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:50, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes. I'm pretty sure it's about the Coronation Street character. If nobody else replies, ping me and I'll get it when I'm next about, but I'm really busy lately. — anemone projectors 17:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for sounding uppity. I didn't know what else to do or that you were busy. I won't add the source for Tina then. I just wanted to double check.77.97.55.147 (talk) 22:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

lol that's ok :-) — anemone projectors 09:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Pete Barton

Digital Spy have this article about Pete Barton in Emmerdale and his affair with Priya Sharma being discovered [12]. Pete's mother Emma finds out about the affair after she insults Leyla and the article says that Pete defends Leyla by revealing that "he was the real villain in their relationship". Should this source be used? It does not describe Pete as a character as a villain in general, just for this particular storyline so I was wondering whether it should be added in this context?77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:07, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

It looks like a grey area, I'm not entirely sure to be honest, so I'd err on the side of caution and leave it out. — anemone projectors 09:31, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Home and away

@AnemoneProjectors: Can Baddest be used about a villain since "bad" is allowed. If yes can I add the names from this list? [13]82.132.243.22 (talk) 17:40, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I never received that ping! This is about the "baddest boys", and we decided that although "bad" is ok, a "bad boy" is something totally different to person who is bad. — anemone projectors 09:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Billy Mayhew

The Daily Mirror have this article [14] which describes Coronation Street's Billy Mayhew, a vicar nonetheless, as "turns evil" in its title. Should I add it and him to the list?77.97.55.147 (talk) 14:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

So should it be added then?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:48, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure. — anemone projectors 11:23, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

I won't add it then. It's better to be certain. Just wanted to double check.77.97.55.147 (talk) 11:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

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Emmerdale: Rebecca White

I've noticed that Rebecca White from Emmerdale has been removed from this list along with the source for her from the Daily Star which called her "villainous". Why has she been taken off? Was there something wrong with the source?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:48, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Removal of sourced characters without a reason being given should always be reverted. If anyone thinks a character should be removed, they should discuss it here first. Rosie Webster (Coronation Street) and Woody Woodward (EastEnders) were also removed. Rebecca was called a villainous character, Rosie nominated for villain of the year, so both should be kept in. Woody was called a villain upon his announcement, rather than based on his time in the series, so this is probably an accurate removal. — anemone projectors 11:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

So can they be reverted then or has that already been done?77.97.55.147 (talk) 11:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

To answer my own question, it has been done. So are there any other characters on this list that were referred to as "villains" on their announcements and if so should they be taken off? And if a character is called a "villain" in the future tense before they have even appeared onscreen does that make them ineligible for this list? 77.97.55.147 (talk) 11:47, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Potentially. Woody was possibly announced as a "bad boy" and then some reporter decided that that = villain. If a character is announced as a villain that's fine, but if there isn't a quote from an official source that the character is a villain, maybe we should wait and see. Needs discussion to build consensus. — anemone projectors 09:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Tom Bailey

Will this link allow Tom to be added [15]?19:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.134.12.137 (talk)

My personal opinion is that being described as a "baddie" is probably good enough, but others might disagree. — anemone projectors 09:46, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Chesney Brown

This source from OK Magazine [16] says Coronation Street's Chesney Brown "turns evil" in an upcoming storyline next week. Can he be added to this list because of it?77.97.55.147 (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Can this source be added then?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Should this source be added?77.97.55.147 (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah maybe. Same as Billy I guess, if we do it for one we should do it for both. I think we need more people discussing things on this page though to be sure. — anemone projectors 09:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Well if we can't be certain then I won't add it.77.97.55.147 (talk) 14:38, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

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Granny Campbell

Can this source count for the villain list? [17] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.36.221.187 (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Novak Home and Away

Can this link here [18] be used as point 5 calls him a villain?82.132.242.247 (talk) 15:42, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes this one can as it calls him a "villain". Feel free to add it.77.97.55.147 (talk) 16:12, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I saw this source has now been added. Does anybody know when it was added so the accessdate can be confirmed?77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:18, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Just add today's date. I believe accessdate is meant to be for the day you access the link, not necessarily the day it's added (although they tend to be the same). – JuneGloom07 Talk 16:22, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

EastEnders Mitch

I can't find it now but didn't we agree not to include characters who had been described as villains by critics before the character had been on screen? Mitch Baker was added based on a Daily Star headline "New villain to rock Albert Square" and the article says he will cause trouble, so it's easy to assume he would be a villain, but didn't he just reveal a secret or something (not seen his last 2 eps yet)? Should we remove him?

On a side note, although the actress playing Mel Owen "confirmed" that Mel would become a villain, it remains to be seen (plus the exact question she was asked isn't confirmed in the source). — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 19:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Annie Pritchard EastEnders

The source I used for Annie Pritchard in EastEnders from Radio Times had something wrong with its URL. I tried to fix it but I can't find the source anymore. Can anyone help?77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:53, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Here is the link [19] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.212.21 (talk) 10:31, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll add it now.77.97.55.147 (talk) 12:33, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

The URL was fine, it was how the template displayed it that was wrong. I don't know why. However, see the above section. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 14:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

It was because the http:// part of the url was missed off. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 14:09, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Coronation Street Kayla

This source [20] calls Kayla from Coronation Street "Kayla Westbrook". Next week's Radio Times credits her as that but the programme's end credits have been crediting her as "Kayla Clifton" which is her real name. She is concealing her true identity so is probably using a false name in the show, possibly her mother's maiden name. Even though this source calls her Westbrook, should I call her Clifton if I add her?77.97.55.147 (talk) 22:32, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

That's my question answered then as she has been put in the W section of the list as "Westbrook". The programme is still crediting her as "Clifton" on the end credits but this week's Radio Times calls her Westbrook.77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Update: I've found a better source for Kayla which refers to her by her proper name. [21]77.97.55.147 (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Coronation Street characters

This source [22] from Digital Spy features a number of Coronation Street characters which it describes as potentially "becoming Weatherfield's next big villain". Some of the characters on here are already on this list as they have already been established as villains but what about the others? Should they be added and can this source be used? I did wonder as it seems to be hinting that they could become villains and not referring to them as "villains" in the past or present tense so what should we do?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:56, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi 77.97.55.147, sorry for the delay, this must be frustrating for you. I think there are two characters in that source not mentioned in our list (Alya and Duncan) but I would advice against using it as it does look like speculation to me. I have an idea if you want a speedier response, because I've not been around a lot lately and when I am I've neglected to check here - you can either "ping" me by using Template:Ping, and I'll be notified next time I come to Wikipedia, or leave a message on my talk page to let me know there's a message here, and I'll be notified by email straight away. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 21:41, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. Will do. I won't add the source then. I did wonder about that but I just wanted to be sure. Just as well that I did.77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:13, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Minor characters

Having written the above about Mitch in EastEnders, I'm wondering if we should keep the lists shorter by only including notable villains (regular characters?), rather than characters who appeared for a week, did something bad and then got arrested, never appearing again. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 19:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors: Would that mean removing recurring characters of multiple months who had a major villainous story? Because some soaps had recurring characters for a long story who’s villainy was quite bad. Examples being Charlotte King, Finn Kelly, Jacka Hills to name a few. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.212.21 (talk)

Multiple months is fine, and Charlotte King (Home and Away) has an article so is a notable character anyway, but I'm talking about a few weeks or less, for example in EastEnders, Simon Atmore was in 6 episodes, Frankie Byrne, Neil Crossley and Tom Eden were in 4 each, and Annie Pritchard has been in 3. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 14:16, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 11:43, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

EastEnders; Removed characters

I noticed that Mel Owen has been removed from the EastEnders section of the page along with the source naming her as a villain from The Sun. Why is this? Was there something wrong with the source used for her?77.97.55.147 (talk) 16:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I also see that Lee Carter has been removed from the list even though there was a valid source calling him a "villain". Is there a reason why this has also happened?77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:57, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Lee has been put back. Mel is still missing though. Have any others been removed?77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:05, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

The source that identifies Mel Owen as a villain is more of a question of "Is she returning as a villain?" rather than "Mel Owen is returning as a villain". [23] 12:43. 5 September 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ILove70s (talk • contribs)

I'm also in two minds. On the one hand, in the article Tamzin Outhwaite seemingly confirms that Mel is returning as a villain, on the other hand people on twitter were speculating that Mel was the mastermind behind the heist storyline at the start of the year and it turned out that she wasn't. Has the character done anything villainous since? Unless it's just more speculation by The Sun and them jumping to conclusions/jumping the gun.77.97.55.147 (talk) 11:59, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I was asked about this on my talk page and therefore missed this discussion (please {{ping}} me here instead if you want me, or leave a {{talkback}} on my talk page!) My reply regarding Mel was "I think we agreed that someone who is only reported that they will arrive or return as a villain shouldn't be included as it looks like media speculation or sensationalism. So I would say her removal is accurate. If she is a villain we should use a source based on what reporters know she has done not what they think she might do. This is also why Woody Woodward was removed, because a reporter assumed he would be a villain when he wasn't. Maybe he was in the end but we'd need a different source, reporting on what he did in the end, not what they thought he might do in the beginning." — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 18:02, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

EastEnders latest source

I used this page [24] to add Shakil's killer Bruno to the list as it calls him "evil". Should I also use it to add Amy Mitchell? It states in the title that "EastEnders' next big villain might be a kid". Is that enough?77.97.55.147 (talk) 20:05, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

No because it only says "might be", so is just speculation. Thanks :-) — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 17:59, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I thought so. Just wanted to double check. Thanks for the confirmation77.97.55.147 (talk) 16:24, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Holby and Casualty

A while back it was decided that villains from Holby City and Casualty couldn't be included because they weren't listed as soaps on the BBC website, this link here [25] now categorised them both as soaps. So with this now included as soaps can villains from both be added?--82.132.245.1 (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Sources

There are a lot of Emmerdale Farm villains from the 1970s and 1980s missing. I have a good amount of episodes and can find sources (not news sites however) that can back me up. For example, Tom Merrick (1972, 1980-88) beat his wife, was involved a hit-and-run on Joe Sugden whilst committing theft and torched a barn to frame Jack Sugden. Derek Warner (1980-86) ran over Joe Sugden whilst committing theft with Tom, committed armed robbery on a security van, held Harry Mowlam at knifepoint, beat Harry up, murdered Harry, tried to shoot his henchman Keith Johnson and narrowly missed shooting two police officers. Keith Johnson also committed armed robbery, beat Harry up, assisted in Harry's murder and already had a reputation as a dangerous man. Harry Mowlam (1983-86) abused his dog, tried to run over Jackie Merrick, committed armed robbery, made sexual advances on Dolly Skilbeck (causing her miscarriage) and attempting to kill Matt Skilbeck whilst stealing sheep from Emmerdale Farm. There was also Jim Latimer (1973, 1991) who murdered Sharon Crossthwaite, attempted to kill Penny Golightly, injured Annie Sugden in a robbery and held Sarah Connolly hostage in a barn. Double act Smarty Garrett and Poor Ocker also caused numerous fires around the village from 1977 to 1979. Steve Hawker (1978) broke into Joe Sugden's house and stole his shotgun, and along with his girlfriend Pip Coulter (1978), performed an armed robbery at The Woolpack, held Sam Pearson hostage and tried to shoot PC Edwards. I'm a bit confused on how to add references on Wikipedia (Wikia is so much easier) and if these sources would be allowed. There are also plenty more villains I could add. Danielroxheaps2 (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Danielroxheaps2, what are the sources you have? Are they offline sources such as magazines or books or can they be accessed online? Do they explicitly use the words "villain", "villainous", "evil", etc? — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 09:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi AnemoneProjectors! Most of my sources are from the Emmerdale Wikia (emmerdale.wikia.com) which is filled with information we have entered either through watching the episodes, contacting ITV or through a reliable source (such as the Beckindale Bugle; http://emmerdalearchive.blogspot.com). All tyhe characters I have mentioned have pages on the Emmerdale Wikia so if it's an allowed source then there should be at least one for each character I have listed. Danielroxheaps2 (talk) 03:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

@Danielroxheaps2: I'm sorry but other Wikis aren't considered to be reliable sources, seeing as anyone can edit them as on here, and as the Beckindale Bugle is a blogspot blog, it's unlikely to be considered reliable enough either. A news website or a magazine like Inside Soap would be better. ITV is a reliable source but "contacting ITV" is different to "published by ITV". If the official Emmerdale website had a character profile page or an interview with someone that called those characters villains, etc, then that would be ok. I think you might have to try to find better sources for Wikipedia. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 07:27, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks but that will probably be impossible as these villains existed before most of the news companies were established, some even before the internet was invented. The wikia is heavily moderated and Drew (who ran the Beckindale Bugle) has the episodes that he talked about on the blog. Danielroxheaps2 (talk) 20:54, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, newspapers did exist in the 1970s and 1980s and there are archives available (the list already contains references from the 1970s and 1980s). Also, current websites like Digital Spy or magazines like Inside Soap do sometimes look back at past characters and storylines, so reliable sources may come up in the future. Until such sources are found, the characters can't be included. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 09:56, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

There was an Emmerdale 25th anniversary book which referred to Derek Warner as "evil" which I saw in a charity shop and browsed through. I considered buying it just so I could add Derek to this list but didn't.77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Daily Mail Sources?

I tried to add a source to the EastEnders section from the Daily Mail and saw a message stating that Wikipedia is not using Daily Mail sources anymore. However there are some Daily Mail sources already on this page being used for other characters. I added some of them myself at the time. As the rules have clearly changed since then, should these sources and the characters they are being used for be removed from here?77.97.55.147 (talk) 18:32, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

From what I can see, they all got removed at the same time. Personally, I think it's madness to remove all DM sources like this, especially those that are not backing up anything controversial or BLP related, but what are you gonna do? - JuneGloom07 Talk 21:39, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

If it was OK, I was possibly going to remove the Daily Mail sources and if I couldn't find all of them, ask another editor to do the remaining ones.77.97.55.147 (talk) 18:59, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

If somebody else has done it then they've saved me a job. I was just wanting to clarify which characters had had the Daily Mail sources.77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:01, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Just checking now, Marcus Christie, Donald Fisher (Home and Away) and Jim McDonald (Coronation Street) were removed from the list because they were sourced from Daily Mail. Others had the refs replaced or already have other refs in place, so if other sources for those three could be found, that would be good. — ᴀnemone ᴘroᴊecтors 12:21, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I think the Donald Fisher source might be hard to replace. He wasn't evil or an obvious villain from what I remember. I can add Jim back now though. - JuneGloom07 Talk 19:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes the Daily Mirror had an article calling him a "villain". The Evening Standard called Clare Bates from EastEnders a "villain" so she was able to be added back too.77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Donny Cairn: Emmerdale

There are a couple of articles from The Sun calling Donny Cairn in Emmerdale "evil" but I have been having trouble adding them because The Sun's website seems to be playing up at the moment and not loading properly. Could someone else please help? Maybe they would have more luck with it77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:27, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Here is a link to one of the articles. [26] It isn't fully loading properly for me. I don't know whether anyone else is having this problem with it. It refers to Donny as "evil" though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

It appears to be working now. - JuneGloom07 Talk 01:51, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I've added it now.77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:04, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Holby and Casualty

A while back it was decided that villains from Holby City and Casualty couldn't be included because they weren't listed as soaps on the BBC website, this link here [27] now categorised them both as soaps. So with this now included as soaps can villains from both be added?--82.132.245.1 (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Unanswered.82.132.244.69 (talk) 09:44, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

John Gaskell from Holby City appears to have been added. He is the only character in that section. None for Casualty so far.77.97.55.147 (talk) 18:41, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors:

Your attempts to ping me only work if you write a message. If you go back and add a ping to an old message, I won't be pinged. I didn't answer this in December because I don't know. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 17:49, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Graham Foster, Emmerdale

I've found two articles for Emmerdale's Graham Foster. This one [28] from Digital Spy which calls him "evil" and this one [29] from Entertainment Daily which calls him "villainous". Which of these is most suitable for use?77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Which of these should I add?77.97.55.147 (talk) 01:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors:

Doesn't matter. I've found a better one from Inside Soap magazine.77.97.55.147 (talk) 16:13, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

You could of just added them both. - JuneGloom07 Talk 18:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

So they were both OK to use. Should I still add them anyway?77.97.55.147 (talk) 20:12, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

I've added the other two sources.77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:42, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

FWIW I would have gone with the "villainous" one, or both. The order of preference for me is ref with "villain" or "villainous" first, then "evil" next, "bad guy" or "baddie" last - and online refs preferred to offline ones. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 17:52, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Do you think I should remove the "evil" one and keep just the villain/villainous ones or is it OK as it is with all of them?77.97.55.147 (talk) 23:10, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I've found another article here [30] calling Graham a "villain". Should I remove the one calling him "evil" and replace it with this one then?77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

The Sun sources

A while back, I attempted to add a character using a source from The Sun but was told that sources from The Sun were not being used on here so it was deleted. However, the list already contains sources from The Sun with links to articles so should they be removed as a result of this if that particular newspaper is not being used?77.97.55.147 (talk) 00:47, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors:

So what is Wikipedia's current guidance on using sources from The Sun? As I explained above I attempted to add a source from there for Kerry Wyatt from Emmerdale but it wouldn't let me and said Sun sources were not being used but they have been used already for other characters on this list. So should those sources be removed?77.97.55.147 (talk) 21:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Use of The Sun for references has been deprecated due to consensus that it is generally unreliable and it is actively discouraged that sources from The Sun are used for references. However, my opinion is that for television reviews, it should be considered perfectly fine. I expect every The Sun source on Wikipedia will be removed in due course, therefore if better sources can be found, that would probably be a good idea. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 21:44, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Hayley Slater, EastEnders

I am sure Hayley Slater from EastEnders was on this list and there was a source for her possibly from the Daily Express. It seems to have been removed. Does anyone know why?77.97.55.147 (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Why was the source for Hayley removed?77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:06, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

The person who removed her was anonymous so we will never know. Perhaps because they felt she's not a villain. *shrugs* I'm not a mind reader. The source says "she was originally introduced as a villain as she worked to take down Martin Fowler". It can be undone by clicking here [31] 17:59, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to do next after following that link. Also do you think Hayley should be put back and was the source good enough to use?77.97.55.147 (talk) 23:08, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

You were supposed to click "undo" to undo the IP's edit which removed Hayley. I've done it now, so she's back in the list. - JuneGloom07 Talk 20:45, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. I must have misunderstood the instructions.77.97.55.147 (talk) 00:38, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have explained it better! — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 21:50, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Harold Bishop

Can this be used [32] as a reference about Harold being evil at a time?

Many Thanks

--82.132.218.139 (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors:

I was just going ask is this source a suitable one for this page? It seems to be from a fansite.77.97.55.147 (talk) 00:54, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Den of Geek is run by Dennis Publishing. A lot of their publications are definitely reliable but I don't know if this particular one is. I would suggest erring on the side of caution and not using it at this time. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 12:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Hollyoaks characters

I found this article in Metro featuring Hollyoaks characters. [33] Should the ones on here that aren't already on the list be added?77.97.55.147 (talk) 19:51, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors:

Can this source be used for this list?77.97.55.147 (talk) 12:12, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No, because it says some characters are "known as villains before developing into more well-rounded personalities; while others simply caused annoyance until it transpired they were putting up a facade", but doesn't specify which characters are villains. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 12:41, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Gray Atkins

@AnemoneProjectors: I added a source for EastEnders' Gray Atkins from the Radio Times website but it has now been removed along with Gray's name. Why is this? Was the source not good enough?77.97.55.147 (talk) 13:11, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, you'll have to ask Beauty School Dropout, but I think the reference looks fine. Maybe BSD has a different opinion. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 13:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

There was another source that was from The Sun and they are not being used anymore in here.77.97.55.147 (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Jan Lozinski

@AnemoneProjectors:

I added a source for Coronation Street's Jan Lozinski which referred to him as a "villain" because at the time it was printed, he was believed to be one. It was thought that he was a people trafficker, but it has since transpired onscreen that Jan was a police informant who had infiltrated the gang to help bring them down so in fact he wasn't a villain after all. Can I remove the source?77.97.55.147 (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah of course you can. — 🌼📽️Anemone Projectors💬 18:11, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Done. Yes the person who wrote the article genuinely thought Jan was a villain at the time, as did all the viewers, and there was an unexpected plot twist in which we found out he wasn't a bad guy after all. They kept it well hidden, the Corrie producers did. It wasn't leaked like some other stories have been.77.97.55.147 (talk) 20:37, 9 August 2019 (UTC)