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Requested move 23 September 2023

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. After two weeks, there is clearly no consensus for all of these moves. There are strong arguments on both sides but none with the level of support to indicate an overall consensus, and more time for discussion likely will not lead to a consensus being created here.

A future discussion held only regarding cases where there is a women's team would be more likely to succeed, and such a discussion could be opened immediately after this RM. Given the overall level of opposition, however, it would be inappropriate to find that as the consensus from this discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 21:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


  1. Afghanistan national football teamAfghanistan men's national football team
  2. Abkhazia national football teamAbkhazia men's national football team
  3. Albania national football teamAlbania men's national football team
  4. Alderney official football teamAlderney official football team
  5. Algeria national football teamAlgeria men's national football team
  6. Ambazonia national football teamAmbazonia men's national football team
  7. American Samoa national football teamAmerican Samoa men's national football team
  8. Andorra national football teamAndorra men's national football team
  9. Angola national football teamAngola men's national football team
  10. Anguilla national football teamAnguilla men's national football team
  11. Antigua and Barbuda national football teamAntigua and Barbuda men's national football team
  12. Argentina national football teamArgentina men's national football team
  13. Armenia national football teamArmenia men's national football team
  14. Artsakh national football teamArtsakh men's national football team
  15. Aruba national football teamAruba men's national football team
  16. Austria national football teamAustria men's national football team
  17. Azerbaijan national football teamAzerbaijan men's national football team
  18. Bahamas national football teamBahamas men's national football team
  19. Bahrain national football teamBahrain men's national football team
  20. Bangladesh national football teamBangladesh men's national football team
  21. Barawa football teamBarawa football team
  22. Barbados national football teamBarbados men's national football team
  23. Basque Country national football teamBasque Country men's national football team
  24. Belarus national football teamBelarus men's national football team
  25. Belgium national football teamBelgium men's national football team
  26. Belize national football teamBelize men's national football team
  27. Benin national football teamBenin men's national football team
  28. Bermuda national football teamBermuda men's national football team
  29. Bhutan national football teamBhutan men's national football team
  30. Bolivia national football teamBolivia men's national football team
  31. Bonaire national football teamBonaire men's national football team
  32. Bosnia and Herzegovina national football teamBosnia and Herzegovina men's national football team
  33. Botswana national football teamBotswana men's national football team
  34. Brazil national football teamBrazil men's national football team
  35. Brittany national football teamBrittany men's national football team
  36. Brunei national football teamBrunei men's national football team
  37. Bulgaria national football teamBulgaria men's national football team
  38. Burkina Faso national football teamBurkina Faso men's national football team
  39. Burundi national football teamBurundi men's national football team
  40. Cambodia national football teamCambodia men's national football team
  41. Cameroon national football teamCameroon men's national football team
  42. Cape Verde national football teamCape Verde men's national football team
  43. Catalonia national football teamCatalonia men's national football team
  44. Cayman Islands national football teamCayman Islands men's national football team
  45. Central African Republic national football teamCentral African Republic men's national football team
  46. Chad national football teamChad men's national football team
  47. Chagos Islands national football teamChagos Islands men's national football team
  48. Chameria national football teamChameria men's national football team
  49. Chile national football teamChile men's national football team
  50. China national football teamChina men's national football team
  51. Chinese Taipei national football teamChinese Taipei men's national football team
  52. Colombia national football teamColombia men's national football team
  53. Comoros national football teamComoros men's national football team
  54. Congo national football teamCongo men's national football team
  55. Cook Islands national football teamCook Islands men's national football team
  56. Corsica national football teamCorsica men's national football team
  57. Costa Rica national football teamCosta Rica men's national football team
  58. County of Nice national football teamCounty of Nice men's national football team
  59. Crimean Tatars national football teamCrimean Tatars men's national football team
  60. Croatia national football teamCroatia men's national football team
  61. Cuba national football teamCuba men's national football team
  62. Curaçao national football teamCuraçao men's national football team
  63. Curaçao national football team (1921–1958)Curaçao men's national football team (1921–1958)
  64. Cyprus national football teamCyprus men's national football team
  65. Czech Republic national football teamCzech Republic men's national football team
  66. Czechoslovakia national football teamCzechoslovakia men's national football team
  67. DR Congo national football teamDR Congo men's national football team
  68. Darfur national football teamDarfur men's national football team
  69. Denmark national football teamDenmark men's national football team
  70. Djibouti national football teamDjibouti men's national football team
  71. Dominica national football teamDominica men's national football team
  72. Dominican Republic national football teamDominican Republic men's national football team
  73. Donetsk People's Republic national football teamDonetsk People's Republic men's national football team
  74. East Germany national football teamEast Germany men's national football team
  75. East Turkestan national football teamEast Turkestan men's national football team
  76. Ecuador national football teamEcuador men's national football team
  77. Egypt national football teamEgypt men's national football team
  78. El Salvador national football teamEl Salvador men's national football team
  79. England national football teamEngland men's national football team
  80. Equatorial Guinea national football teamEquatorial Guinea men's national football team
  81. Eritrea national football teamEritrea men's national football team
  82. Esperanto national football teamEsperanto men's national football team
  83. Estonia national football teamEstonia men's national football team
  84. Eswatini national football teamEswatini men's national football team
  85. Ethiopia national football teamEthiopia men's national football team
  86. Faroe Islands national football teamFaroe Islands men's national football team
  87. Federated States of Micronesia national football teamFederated States of Micronesia men's national football team
  88. Fiji national football teamFiji men's national football team
  89. Finland national football teamFinland men's national football team
  90. France national football teamFrance men's national football team
  91. French Guiana national football teamFrench Guiana men's national football team
  92. Gabon national football teamGabon men's national football team
  93. Galicia national football teamGalicia men's national football team
  94. Gambia national football teamGambia men's national football team
  95. Georgia national football teamGeorgia men's national football team
  96. Germany national football teamGermany men's national football team
  97. Ghana national football teamGhana men's national football team
  98. Gibraltar national football teamGibraltar men's national football team
  99. Greece national football teamGreece men's national football team
  100. Greenland national football teamGreenland men's national football team
  101. Grenada national football teamGrenada men's national football team
  102. Guadeloupe national football teamGuadeloupe men's national football team
  103. Guam national football teamGuam men's national football team
  104. Guatemala national football teamGuatemala men's national football team
  105. Guinea-Bissau national football teamGuinea-Bissau men's national football team
  106. Guinea national football teamGuinea men's national football team
  107. Guyana national football teamGuyana men's national football team
  108. Haiti national football teamHaiti men's national football team
  109. Honduras national football teamHonduras men's national football team
  110. Hong Kong national football teamHong Kong men's national football team
  111. Hungary national football teamHungary men's national football team
  112. Iceland national football teamIceland men's national football team
  113. India national football teamIndia men's national football team
  114. Indonesia national football teamIndonesia men's national football team
  115. Iran national football teamIran men's national football team
  116. Iraq national football teamIraq men's national football team
  117. Ireland national football team (1882–1950)Ireland men's national football team (1882–1950)
  118. Israel national football teamIsrael men's national football team
  119. Italy national football teamItaly men's national football team
  120. Ivory Coast national football teamIvory Coast men's national football team
  121. Jamaica national football teamJamaica men's national football team
  122. Japan national football teamJapan men's national football team
  123. Jordan national football teamJordan men's national football team
  124. Kazakhstan national football teamKazakhstan men's national football team
  125. Kenya national football teamKenya men's national football team
  126. Kiribati national football teamKiribati men's national football team
  127. Kosovo national football teamKosovo men's national football team
  128. Kurdistan Region national football teamKurdistan Region men's national football team
  129. Kuwait national football teamKuwait men's national football team
  130. Kyrgyzstan national football teamKyrgyzstan men's national football team
  131. Laos national football teamLaos men's national football team
  132. Latvia national football teamLatvia men's national football team
  133. Lebanon national football teamLebanon men's national football team
  134. Lesotho national football teamLesotho men's national football team
  135. Liberia national football teamLiberia men's national football team
  136. Libya national football teamLibya men's national football team
  137. Liechtenstein national football teamLiechtenstein men's national football team
  138. Lithuania national football teamLithuania men's national football team
  139. Luhansk People's Republic national football teamLuhansk People's Republic men's national football team
  140. Luxembourg national football teamLuxembourg men's national football team
  141. Macau national football teamMacau men's national football team
  142. Madagascar national football teamMadagascar men's national football team
  143. Malawi national football teamMalawi men's national football team
  144. Malaya national football teamMalaya men's national football team
  145. Malaysia national football teamMalaysia men's national football team
  146. Maldives national football teamMaldives men's national football team
  147. Mali national football teamMali men's national football team
  148. Malta national football teamMalta men's national football team
  149. Mandatory Palestine national football teamMandatory Palestine men's national football team
  150. Marshall Islands national soccer teamMarshall Islands men's national soccer team
  151. Martinique national football teamMartinique men's national football team
  152. Mauritania national football teamMauritania men's national football team
  153. Mauritius national football teamMauritius men's national football team
  154. Mayotte national football teamMayotte men's national football team
  155. Mexico national football teamMexico men's national football team
  156. Moldova national football teamMoldova men's national football team
  157. Monaco national football teamMonaco men's national football team
  158. Mongolia national football teamMongolia men's national football team
  159. Montenegro national football teamMontenegro men's national football team
  160. Montserrat national football teamMontserrat men's national football team
  161. Morocco national football teamMorocco men's national football team
  162. Mozambique national football teamMozambique men's national football team
  163. Myanmar national football teamMyanmar men's national football team
  164. Namibia national football teamNamibia men's national football team
  165. Nepal national football teamNepal men's national football team
  166. Netherlands Antilles national football teamNetherlands Antilles men's national football team
  167. Netherlands national football teamNetherlands men's national football team
  168. New Caledonia national football teamNew Caledonia men's national football team
  169. Nicaragua national football teamNicaragua men's national football team
  170. Niger national football teamNiger men's national football team
  171. Nigeria national football teamNigeria men's national football team
  172. Niue national soccer teamNiue national soccer team
  173. North Korea national football teamNorth Korea men's national football team
  174. North Macedonia national football teamNorth Macedonia men's national football team
  175. North Vietnam national football teamNorth Vietnam men's national football team
  176. Northern Cyprus national football teamNorthern Cyprus men's national football team
  177. Northern Ireland national football teamNorthern Ireland men's national football team
  178. Northern Mariana Islands national football teamNorthern Mariana Islands men's national football team
  179. Oman national football teamOman men's national football team
  180. Padania national football teamPadania men's national football team
  181. Pakistan national football teamPakistan men's national football team
  182. Palau national football teamPalau men's national football team
  183. Palestine national football teamPalestine men's national football team
  184. Panama national football teamPanama men's national football team
  185. Papua New Guinea national football teamPapua New Guinea men's national football team (or Papua New Guinea men's national soccer team)
  186. Paraguay national football teamParaguay men's national football team
  187. Peru national football teamPeru men's national football team
  188. Philippines national football teamPhilippines men's national football team
  189. Poland national football teamPoland men's national football team
  190. Portugal national football teamPortugal men's national football team
  191. Puerto Rico national football teamPuerto Rico men's national football team
  192. Qatar national football teamQatar men's national football team
  193. Republic of Ireland national football teamRepublic of Ireland men's national football team
  194. Rohingya national football teamRohingya men's national football team
  195. Romania national football teamRomania men's national football team
  196. Russia national football teamRussia men's national football team
  197. Russian Empire national football teamRussian Empire men's national football team
  198. Rwanda national football teamRwanda men's national football team
  199. Ryūkyū national football teamRyūkyū men's national football team
  200. Réunion national football teamRéunion men's national football team
  201. Saint Barthélemy national football teamSaint Barthélemy men's national football team
  202. Saint Helena football teamSaint Helena football team
  203. Saint Kitts and Nevis national football teamSaint Kitts and Nevis men's national football team
  204. Saint Lucia national football teamSaint Lucia men's national football team
  205. Saint Martin national football teamSaint Martin men's national football team
  206. Saint Pierre and Miquelon national football teamSaint Pierre and Miquelon men's national football team
  207. Saint Vincent and the Grenadines national football teamSaint Vincent and the Grenadines men's national football team
  208. Samoa national football teamSamoa men's national football team
  209. San Marino national football teamSan Marino men's national football team
  210. Sardinia national football teamSardinia men's national football team
  211. Saudi Arabia national football teamSaudi Arabia men's national football team
  212. Scotland national football teamScotland men's national football team
  213. Senegal national football teamSenegal men's national football team
  214. Serbia and Montenegro national football teamSerbia and Montenegro men's national football team
  215. Serbia national football teamSerbia men's national football team
  216. Seychelles national football teamSeychelles men's national football team
  217. Sicily national football teamSicily men's national football team
  218. Sierra Leone national football teamSierra Leone men's national football team
  219. Silesia national football teamSilesia men's national football team
  220. Singapore national football teamSingapore men's national football team
  221. Sint Eustatius national football teamSint Eustatius men's national football team
  222. Sint Maarten national football teamSint Maarten men's national football team
  223. Slovakia national football teamSlovakia men's national football team
  224. Slovenia national football teamSlovenia men's national football team
  225. Solomon Islands national football teamSolomon Islands men's national football team
  226. Somalia national football teamSomalia men's national football team
  227. Somaliland national football teamSomaliland men's national football team
  228. South Africa national soccer teamSouth Africa men's national soccer team
  229. South Korea national football teamSouth Korea men's national football team
  230. South Ossetia national football teamSouth Ossetia men's national football team
  231. South Sudan national football teamSouth Sudan men's national football team
  232. South Vietnam national football teamSouth Vietnam men's national football team
  233. South Yemen national football teamSouth Yemen men's national football team
  234. Soviet Union national football teamSoviet Union men's national football team
  235. Spain national football teamSpain men's national football team
  236. Sri Lanka national football teamSri Lanka men's national football team
  237. Sudan national football teamSudan men's national football team
  238. Suriname national football teamSuriname men's national football team
  239. Switzerland national football teamSwitzerland men's national football team
  240. Syria national football teamSyria men's national football team
  241. São Tomé and Príncipe national football teamSão Tomé and Príncipe men's national football team
  242. Tahiti national football teamTahiti men's national football team
  243. Tajikistan national football teamTajikistan men's national football team
  244. Tamil Eelam national football teamTamil Eelam men's national football team
  245. Tanzania national football teamTanzania men's national football team
  246. Thailand national football teamThailand men's national football team
  247. Tibet national football teamTibet men's national football team
  248. Timor-Leste national football teamTimor-Leste men's national football team
  249. Togo national football teamTogo men's national football team
  250. Tonga national football teamTonga men's national football team
  251. Transnistria national football teamTransnistria men's national football team
  252. Trinidad and Tobago national football teamTrinidad and Tobago men's national football team
  253. Tunisia national football teamTunisia men's national football team
  254. Turkey national football teamTurkey men's national football team
  255. Turkmenistan national football teamTurkmenistan men's national football team
  256. Turks and Caicos Islands national football teamTurks and Caicos Islands men's national football team
  257. Tuvalu national football teamTuvalu men's national football team
  258. Two Sicilies national football teamTwo Sicilies men's national football team
  259. Uganda national football teamUganda men's national football team
  260. Ukraine national football teamUkraine men's national football team
  261. United Arab Emirates national football teamUnited Arab Emirates men's national football team
  262. United Kingdom national football teamUnited Kingdom men's national football team
  263. Uruguay national football teamUruguay men's national football team
  264. Uzbekistan national football teamUzbekistan men's national football team
  265. Vanuatu national football teamVanuatu men's national football team
  266. Vatican City national football teamVatican City men's national football team
  267. Venezuela national football teamVenezuela men's national football team
  268. Vietnam national football teamVietnam men's national football team
  269. Wales national football teamWales men's national football team
  270. Western Armenia national football teamWestern Armenia men's national football team
  271. Western Sahara national football teamWestern Sahara men's national football team
  272. Yemen national football teamYemen men's national football team
  273. Yugoslavia national football teamYugoslavia men's national football team
  274. Zambia national football teamZambia men's national football team
  275. Zanzibar national football teamZanzibar men's national football team
  276. Zimbabwe national football teamZimbabwe men's national football team

– etc., for all articles in the format "<Country> national football team". This is a follow-up to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 163 § National team RfC and was requested at User talk:Ixtal by @Amakuru. Relevant links to previous discussions: Post-closure discussion at Ixtal's talk page and the post-closure discussion at WT:FOOTY.

information Note: Some articles have been moved to the proposed title format before this RM was filed, like Brazil men's national football team and Portugal men's national football team, due to the RfC. If this discussion closes with a consensus not to move, those moves will be reverted. All moves have been reverted by Amakuru. Articles like United States men's national soccer team, which have used the proposed format before the RfC was closed, will not be affected. – MaterialWorks 10:37, 23 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 09:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Football has been notified of this discussion. – MaterialWorks 10:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Same reasoning I gave in the RfC. I'd support most of these remaining as WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT although I'd expect some to become disambiguation pages. My only query is should articles like Palau and Niue be moved? They are the only national football teams from those countries as there has never been a women's team so there is no need for disambiguation. That could obviously change in future but we can cross that bridge if we come to it. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 11:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the alleged consensus to move all these articles and, in many cases, create new disambiguation pages, appears to have overlooked the broader consensus that those who want to move an existing article (in some cases, with thousands of incoming links from other articles) to make room for a disambiguation page are responsible for fixing the links to the existing article. In this case, that will also entail fixing templates that create links to the titles that are proposed to be moved; for example, {{fbicon}}. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 13:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cautious support: I lend my support for this, but there are some necessary cautions. What happened in the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup has shaped the changes. However, some nations like San Marino, minor Pacific Island states, and even Brunei, Yemen, Oman and Somalia don't even have women's national teams. Meanwhile, the popularity of women's football has risen but has yet to gain significant coverage the same way men's football is to become sufficient enough. I support this move but I advise you to take and include further details for the changes. HiddenFace101 (talk) 17:48, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as poorly planned example of righting great wrongs that creates unnecessary disambiguations for countries that never had women's national football teams. Killuminator (talk) 17:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This proposal seems to go only halfway to working out this issue. If all the moves are done, there is still a further decision to be made as to whether to have Foo national football team as a redirect to the men's team, or as a disambiguation page. Are we all going to come back here to debate that later? StAnselm (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, men's teams are PRIMARY.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:54, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all moves, the men's teams are primary (except possibly the United States but their page was already moved). O.N.R. (talk) 19:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If the US Women's team is primary, why don't we title the pages "United States national soccer team" and "United States men's national soccer team"? Wouldn't that be ridiculous? The men need specification that they are the men's team even if they are not primary. Every team needs specification. Wikipedia rules require it. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 03:49, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well except that it isn't clear that there IS a primary topic for the United States, which is the reason they are titled the way they are. Theoretically speaking, if the US women WERE the clear primary topic, there could absolutely be a case for a primary redirect to the women's team. But that's just counterfactual thinking. Jay eyem (talk) 21:26, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am much less concerned with redirects as I am with the names of the titles. "England national football team" is a title that flat out breaks Wikipedia guildelines. It's unclear what the subject is based on the title. It needs to say England men's national football team. I do believe the page for "England national football team" should be a list of all England national football teams. But if that page redirects to the men's team, that is still a problem, but much less of a problem than the title of the men's team not even stating that it is the men's team. This conversation is a mess, with people arguing different topics, and the conversation needs to be redone. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We do not say the men's World Cup, and it is clear that it is men's teams because its history is much older--Dl.thinker (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    History has absolutely nothing to do with it. We should indeed say men's World Cup, purely because there exists a women's World Cup, and with ever-increasing coverage and relevance regarding the latter. The whole concept of choosing a "primary" when comparing men's to women's football is skewed, as the manner of dealing with both types should be based on gender equality, which appears sadly lacking in many of the unenlightened comments being made here. Ref (chew)(do) 08:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support – There are specific restrictions against men playing for the women's team and vice-versa. The rise in prominence of women's football, especially at the highest level, means we should make the distinction in article titles now. – PeeJay 20:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (this and all suggested moves): my view is that we should follow WP:COMMONNAME, per respective countries. So, most common name for Croatia's men team is just "Croatia national football team", both in English and Croatian sources. I think we should stick to that principle. --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:52, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's not true. Most often these teams are referred to simply by the name of the country, not including the "national football team" bit. And if you look at https://hns.family/ under the "Reprezentacije" tab, you will see that a distinction is made between the men's and women's teams, both in football and futsal, and the under-19 futsal team is specifically denoted as being a men's team. They don't just say "we don't have a women's under-19 futsal team, so it should be obvious that this is the men's under-19 team". – PeeJay 21:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Let's stick to the topic - the football teams. From my point of view, it is obvious that the men's teams are primary teams, as they don't have special designation (A team, U-21, U-20 etc.), while the women's teams do (A (Ž); U-21 (Ž), U-20 (Ž) etc). Regarding the commonality, the most-read sports outlet in Croatia - Sportske novosti, makes this distinction as well: "Hrvatska ženska nogometna reprezantacija" for the women's team ([1]) and "Hrvatska nogometna reprezentacija" for the men's team ([2]). The news outlets in the Croatian language always emphasise when the news is about the women's team while the emphasis is lacking when the news are about the men's team. Governor Sheng (talk) 21:19, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't know where you're looking, but if you mouse over the "Reprezentacije" tab on https://hns.family/, the teams are listed as follows:
      • Muške
        • A Reprezentacija
        • U-21
        • U-20
        • U-19
        • U-18
        • U-17
        • U-16
        • U-15
      • Ženske
        • A Reprezentacija
        • U-19
        • U-17
        • U-15
      • Futsalske
        • A Reprezentacija (M)
        • A Reprezentacija (Ž)
        • U-19 (M)
      • Sve Reprezentacija
      The fact that they refer to men's and women's teams here (not "the national team" and "the women's national team") supports the idea that we should do the same. Your claim that the women's teams are noted as A (Ž), U-21 (Ž), etc. is clearly wrong. Furthermore, as I said, looking at the Futsal section suggests to me that it is perfectly acceptable to specify the men's team as the men's team and the women's team as the women's team. The U-19 futsal team is not a unisex team, it is a men's team, and is designated as such. – PeeJay 09:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I looked at it here. Governor Sheng (talk) 19:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      The distinction is made because they list all their teams. The men's team is still the primary topic. Killuminator (talk) 21:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Do we not list all of a nation's teams on Wikipedia? – PeeJay 09:02, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      We do but we don't call the men's team ''21+'' either. Killuminator (talk) 13:21, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      So what if we don't call them 21+, what is the point of this argument? ౪ Santa ౪99° 19:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the official tournament for the men's senior team is called FIFA World Cup, that means all the national teams (except some countries which called the sport "soccer") don't need to put men's there. Some of the countries like Brunei and Oman don't have a national team for the women, Afghanistan had a women's national team until 2021, due to the takeover of the country by the Taliban. So, the men's team are PRIMARY.
Guyrichtheman (talk) 02:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it's true that that is the official name of the world cup, it is still name for the world cup event and has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is to create proper distinction between the men and women teams' article titles in encyclopedia (which is supposed to be read by everyone, not just football fans). ౪ Santa ౪99° 19:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There usually aren't any rules that say women can't play on the "men's" teams. It just happens that most women are unable to compete against men at the highest level of sports. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. The English Football Association, and many others, specifically exclude females from partaking in post-ten-year-old matches in their rules (and the English FA always have done). That's why women-only football evolved, not because of any perceived physical differences. Mixed hockey is allowed up to a certain skill/age level, but there are very few popular organised team games that mix the sexes. To be honest though, this discussion is supposed to be about naming of national association football articles, for which I would support the change to "men's" and "women's". The talk that I've seen here of men being "primary" in any way does not fit with the modern perception of equality. Ref (chew)(do) 08:41, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. For the WP:CRITERIA of recognizability and precision. For articles about all teams, for WP:CONSISTENCY. Of course mentions in articles can use a shorter version when the context makes it clear, and this won’t be any kind of burden. For those claiming RGW, the guideline says “finding neutral ways of presenting them is what we do,” so I’m not sure whether it’s yes or no votes that are supposed to be contrary to that guideline.  —Michael Z. 18:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You still have much to learn about equality, obviously. Ref (chew)(do) 06:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He isn't wrong stating that men's football is more notable. Governor Sheng (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reality isn't always equal though. Ortizesp (talk) 19:51, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Project pertaining to be serious encyclopedia has to seriously care about it. ౪ Santa ౪99° 17:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose- no one refers to the men's teams this way and and the mens teams are far more popular and known. reports say england woman vs spain women, etc, but they dont say england men vs spain men. also seems like needless work to change millions of pages for something so minor. also curious to put this on one of the lesser known teams in the hopes of sneaking it in? one of the bigger teams like france or england would get more attention.Muur (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the discussion is here purely because Afghanistan is first in alphabetical order. Anyone who watches any of the "bigger teams" articles will have seen the notice of this discussion being added to them. Describing this as "sneaking it in" is inaccurate and does not assume good faith. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reports don't say "england woman vs spain women". The BBC, The Independent, Reuters, The Guardian, Sky News, Bloomberg, The Mirror and El Pais all refer to them as just England and just Spain. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 14:30, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
they do say womens world cup though, so still specify whilst they dont say mens world cup for men.Muur (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're not proposing to move FIFA World Cup so that's irrelevant. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, everyone refers to all sport teams where women and men teams exist this way - UEFA[12], FIFA, all serious media outlets - you can see some of the links already posted here. ౪ Santa ౪99° 19:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this mass rename, as "men's national team" is not the WP:COMMONNAME in most of these cases, not least for some of the former/partially recognised states which haven't ever had a women's teams. No objection to some of these being nominated individually if sources refer to the men's team as "X men's team" as was suggested Scotland does, but this mass change would be a violation of WP:COMMONNAME for most articles listed here. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per above. There are countries where there is no primary topic but not everywhere so this should be done case by case. Kante4 (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The vast majority of countries included in the list have a women's team and the change would eliminate ambiguity.. Brayan Jaimes (talk) 12:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support: except change Papua New Guinea national football team and Papua New Guinea women's national football team to Papua New Guinea men's national soccer team and Papua New Guinea women's national soccer team, respectively. I say this because the term "soccer" is more commonly used in Papua New Guinea due to Australian influence and to distinguish it from rugby and Australian rules football. The PNG national Aussie rules team is the second-most successful in the world (behind Australia, but technically Australia does not compete in the International Cup for obvious reasons). Even PNG's top soccer league is called the Papua New Guinea National Soccer League. A Google search gives soka as the Tok Pisin word for soccer, ragbi for rugby and futbol as a general term (e.g futbol bilong Ostrelia = Aussie rules footy, futbol bilong Amerika = American football).
As a request for comment, does this also apply to other representative teams (e.g Hawaii soccer team)? What about futsal and beach soccer teams? QLDer in NSW (talk) 13:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It applies only to the above mentioned teams. Governor Sheng (talk) 13:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Well, if we're moving them then we should still change "football" to "soccer" for Papua New Guinea. QLDer in NSW (talk) 11:30, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not part of this discussion. GiantSnowman 08:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can we make it part of the discussion? QLDer in NSW (talk) 11:52, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support they are usually classified separately on team’s websites, except in cases where it is clear they are talking about the men’s side, but the same is true for when it is clear they are talking about women’s side as well.Yoblyblob (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above statements. The men's teams are the primary football teams and will remain so for a while. UltraBlazer 20:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This UEFA.com article ([12]) specifies the Poland men's national team. There is no assumption that just saying "the Poland national team" automatically means the men's team. Usually that is done by context clues, but without context, there is no reason to assume just saying "the Fooland national team" means the men's team. – PeeJay 09:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There are no "primary" teams in any sport. ౪ Santa ౪99° 19:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support - I think we kind of need to scrap COMMONNAME here. WP:NORULES tells us that it is our duty to improve Wikipedia. At the same time, we need to advocate equality in naming if we are going to talk about a specific national team. However, I would oppose moving to "men's" if there is no existing "women's" national team article, because then it is clear that there is only one team that is even notable. Paul Vaurie (talk) 04:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as some countries like Brunei has no women's national team. かぴさん Kapisan (talk) 02:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kapisan2016: and others, I think it might be nice if people vote on the principle of naming them "men's national football team" in the cases where there is a women's team only. This is partly my fault, as I wanted to include all affected pages in the RM and ended up adding a few where there isn't an ambiguity, but I think we can accept that we might move most of them while leaving a few like Brunei as is.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This feels like a slippery slope. will man united become man united men next? will half the pl teams be named man united men, chelsea men and then lower leagues as bolton men, wigan men, and even further down oxford city men etc...most teams dont even gave womens teams and so you end up with made up team names?Muur (talk) 13:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No one is proposing to move any of those articles. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't even been a discussion about renaming club articles. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. RavenRTC (talk) 16:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all per above and commonname. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:03, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I oppose this mass move as overly broad in scope at this time. We should review this in much smaller batches (possibly no more than 15) and take time to ensure that any templates – e.g. {{fb}} and {{nft}} – are not broken in the process. This would require a HUGE amount of work to also ensure that any presently existing wikilinks are updated, though a bot should be able to handle that task. We also need to consider whether the same should apply to all the youth teams (e.g. U-15 and U-20). I do concur with all previous users who have stated that there is no need to create a men's team article if that nation does not have an official women's team. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 17:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest support Changing the names to men's football team and women's football team is sheer common sense. People have been begging for this change forever. It is downright confusing and a disservice to readers of Wikipedia to not state which football team the article is talking about. I like to use Wikipedia for knowledge, and I have very often been trying to find information on a women's football team, only to later realize I was accidentally reading the men's team page because the article title was horrifically unclear and against Wikipedia guidelines. For people who are trying to oppose it using the common name argument, this is purely wrong. You do not hear people say out "England national football team" when talking about the England men's team. People will leave out CRUCIAL adjectives when commonly referring to the team, because it is already implied in their discussion. They will say England, England team, England men, England national team, England football team, England men's football team, England men's national team, etc. It is NOT commonly called England national football team. You VERY rarely hear it called that. Why are we pretending something it is basically NEVER called is the common name? "National," "football," and "team" are ALL extra words we put into the Wikipedia title to specify what we are talking about. "Men" is absolutely a crucial word we need to have in this title to specify what the article is about. Without saying which team it is, men's or women's, you do not know what the subject of the article is by reading the title, which is completely against Wikipedia rules. Wikipedia titles need to be precise. Importantly, the official name of the England men's team is "England". Just England. NOT "England national football team". If Wikipedia is choosing to add extra adjectives ("national, football, team") to the most common name of "England" so we can specify which England we are talking about - as opposed to the country England or the band England - we can certainly add that this is the men's team to clarify it with the other England national football team (the women's). "Men" is a much more crucial word to have in the title than "national" and more important to the reader's understanding. The men's team is often called the men's team, but people don't commonly use the word national. We need to have the word national in the title for precision, and we have an even greater need for the word men in the title for precision. For people using the primary topic argument, this is incredibly confusing because the primary topic changes frequently depending on who is playing. This summer, England national team meant the Women's team because they were in the World Cup. Reliable sources would just say England team when they meant the women's team. Furthermore, there is NO primary topic here. There is a men's team and a women's team. There are two topics. It is easy to state the teams in both titles. It is not a competition to be the genderless team who "gets" to be called just team. There is a men's team and a women's team, simple. Two topics that each need to be specified for what they are. This is a straightforward precision issue. It has clearly been bothering Wikipedia readers to no end, because this problem has been brought up countless times. It is truly a disservice to anyone using Wikipedia to not specify the subject of the article in the title. I used England as an example, of course. I support all the countries being labeled men's team and women's team, if there are two national teams in that country. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 03:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry, but so little of this makes sense. There is absolutely a clear primary topic in probably >90% of cases as men's sports are far more popular than women's sports, and that extends to football. It is completely absurd to think that "national" is somehow less relevant to the conversation than the sex of the players when there is a clear distinction between international competition and club competitions. As long as we are talking common parlance, you absolutely will hear "Country X national football/soccer team" just as much as any of those shortened versions, and arguably more frequently than the use of the sex of the team. And while it is increasingly clear that media is trying to avoid male as norm in the conversation, using a recency bias like during a Women's World Cup as opposed to most of the rest of the time is disingenuous. I think there is a compelling argument for a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, but there is absolutely a primary topic for the vast majority of these cases. Jay eyem (talk) 05:25, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    National is repetitive when the nation is already in the title. England is a nation, not a club. I am NOT arguing to get rid of the word national in the titles. It's good to be extra clear these are national teams of the nations. That's my point. National is by far less important to the title than sex of the team, but we still have it. National teams are more popular than club teams, yet you still want to specify this is the "nation national football team." National teams are the primary topic, yet you specify. Your point still doesn't make sense, because national teams and club teams are two separate topics, so there's no need for a popularity contest between them to chose which is the primary topic "deserving" of a short imprecise title. Just as men's and women's teams are two separate topics that both need precision. There will ALWAYS be a question of "men's or women's?" when discussing a national football team. This predominant question needs to be addressed in the title.
    You do not usually hear "England national football team" laid out like that. Other names are more common. You do very often hear the women's team referred to as just "England", though. The easy solution is just to tell readers which team you're talking about in the title. I don't see your reasoning for being against much needed precision. I'm a football fan with a ton of knowledge of the game, and even I was confused by the titles numerous times. There are Wikipedia articles with much lesser need of specification that still do specify. Men's and women's national football teams are in GREAT need of specification. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 06:48, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This sounds like a bit of a Eurocentric view then, because in the US you absolutely always emphasize the "national" portion of the name just as much as the sex, and that is done in part to distinguish it from club teams; it definitely sounded like you were in favor of removing "national" from the article titles. And I disagree that there will ALWAYS be a question of "men's or women's" because the conversation doesn't come up all that often unless you actively follow the women's game. For the vast majority of cases and national teams, the men are the clear primary topic. When I hear "England national football team", unless the women are actively playing in a tournament like the Women's Euros or Women's World Cup, I NEVER think of the women's team, and that is true for the vast majority of people and countries. That being said, I am not against the precision per se or the change using a primary redirect, I just disagree that it is a "much needed" change. Jay eyem (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am from the US, so I don't know what you mean. I made it clear that since the title needs to have extra words that are not part of the official name, which is just "England", to clarify what England we are talking about, "men" is a necessary word to have in the title. You thought I was in favor of removing national from the titles when I said, quote, "We need to have the word national in the title for precision"? I think you misread my entire argument.
    The men are not the clear primary topic. The women's national team of England is very popular. However, that is not the point, and the notibility of women's teams do not need to be stated, because there is NO primary topic of some imagined genderless national team. There are TWO senior national teams. These are two separate topics. It is not a fight to be recognized as the genderless one. When discussing a sports team, men or women is something that needs to be stated.
    What sports you are personally interested in does not matter. Reliable sources CONSTANTLY refer to the women's team as just England. Neutral conversation requires Wikipedia to state which team we are talking about in the title. Maybe you personally can take a guess and think the title might refer to the men's team, but Wikipedia is not for guessing. And not everyone will guess the same as you. The subject of the article should be stated in the title. No one should have to guess what the topic is.
    This is a very simple precision issue. Which of the two England national football teams this is needs to be addressed in the title. It's getting ridiculous at this point to say the least. Countless people have said the title is unclear to them. There is no reason the title shouldn't state what the subject is. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 02:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The men for England are absolutely the clear primary topic, I don't know how you can even possibly debate that. The pageviews for the men absolutely blows the women out of the water, common parlance when discussing national teams will generally specify sex if talking about the women but will not for the men, media still frequently will drop "men" far more often than they will drop "women" when discussing national teams (even when that is heavily influenced by a recency bias), etc. There are only a few nations where this might not be the case, like the United States or Canada. Again, I think there is a compelling argument for a primary redirect, but you are simply wrong on the matter of a primary topic for England. (And to be fair, your first post was a giant block of text, making it difficult to follow, so thank you for breaking up subsequent responses across multiple paragraphs) Jay eyem (talk) 04:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Those page views are often from people searching for the women's team but being given the men's page. Yet another reason to fix the title.
    Again, there is no contest to be the genderless team. There are two topics. There is a men's team and a women's team. The men's team needs to be stated that it is the men's team. We are not arguing for it to say "England national football team (women)", which is the title format in cases where there is a primary topic. We are asking for it to be changed to England men's national football team because this is talking about the men's team.
    Every single time you have mentioned the men's team, you call them men. Men is the word you can't leave out. Men is one of the absolute most important details to identifying which team we are talking about. It strongly needs to be in the title.
    The England men's national basketball team, England men's national field hockey team, England men's national lacrosse team, and England men's national squash team are all properly labeled with the subject of the article in the title. The England men's national football team should follow this consistency and precision. It's a really simple fix. I'm honestly failing to understand why this is controversial for some. Why does it hurt to put men in the title? It's simply telling what team it is. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 05:15, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "Those page views are often from people searching for the women's team but being given the men's page."
    I am sorry, but using this as an argument to show that there is no clear primary topic is an argument that is not based in reality. Unless you can find some way to prove that definitively, I see no reason to consider that a valid argument. Every single other example you provided does not show a clear primary topic; that is not the case for the football team. I am honestly failing to understand how you can possibly think there is no clear primary topic for the vast majority of these teams. And absolutely nobody else is saying anything about a "genderless team", that has been exclusively you this entire time (especially since FIFA is pretty rigid about sex separation of teams). Jay eyem (talk) 14:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There is a men's team and a women's team. You need to simply state which team you're talking about in the title. This is a necessary change so people can be aware of what the subject of the article is based on the title. "England national football team" breaks Wikipedia rules. We are NOT arguing for it to say "England national football team (men)" which would be the case if we were arguing about a primary topic. We are saying this needs to state that it is the men's team, just like other men's sports titles do.
    Primary topic means virtually no one would be looking for Cauliflower (film), and they are almost certainly researching Cauliflower the vegetable. So we do not need to title it "Cauliflower (vegetable)". The film is named after the vegetable. There is one cauliflower (the vegetable) with other things named after it. It would be nearly impossible to confuse the movie article with the article about the plant. None of this applies to sports teams. We aren't asking for men's sports to have "(men)" at the end. It simply needs to have men's properly placed in the middle of the name because that's what the subject of the article is. It's literally about the men's team. Let readers know it's about the men's team.
    There is no problem whatsoever with labeling football teams like the basketball, field hockey, lacrosse, and squash teams are labeled. There is no problem in telling readers what the article subject is. There is a VAST problem with making the subject of the article objectively unidentifiable based on the title, with people merely guessing what the topic is based on what they personally believe. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 23:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (for the cases where an article exists on the women's team) - there is no harm in being clearer here. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:15, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Per WP:UCRN. – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 14:25, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there anything more "common" than when UEFA make distinction [12] and specifies the "Poland men's national team"? ౪ Santa ౪99° 19:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, the number of oppositions are more common! – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 03:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The number of chauvinists and unenlightened are even greater than that! Ref (chew)(do) 09:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And those who reply to others' comments without any meaning are the greatest chauvinists! Trying to prove themselves enlightened but no one cares about them! At least I don't... – 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™ 🗿 15:48, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Men's team are the primary.→ Tanbiruzzaman 💬 18:46, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    According to whom and according to which criteria ? ౪ Santa ౪99° 18:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    According to all chauvinists, obviously, and the less enlightened. Ref (chew)(do) 09:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, hail to you the Enlighted one. Governor Sheng (talk) 14:57, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This is more than just common sense, more than just finding some policy or guideline to quote and link; it is needed for average reader - we don'r do this for our pleasure or preference, we do it for people to find information easier, and anyone seeking info will need to continuously put in extra effort to distinguish between the two different team depending on gender if we don't do the change per nom. This is needed.--౪ Santa ౪99° 05:06, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Additional comment - this PeeJay argument is bottom line: "This UEFA.com article ([12]) specifies the Poland men's national team. There is no assumption that just saying "the Poland national team" automatically means the men's team. Usually that is done by context clues, but without context, there is no reason to assume just saying "the Fooland national team" means the men's team." means the men's team." So, since we are here to make encyclopedia for readership that include anyone able to read English, PY argument about criteria beats personal, usually male editors' preference, which, by the way, is not grounded in WP:Common Name guideline for obvious reason stated in PJ remark with the link to UEFA. ౪ Santa ౪99° 19:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The concept of SJW should not take over wikipedia.--Sabri76'talk 13:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This isn't a political discussion. Nobody is saying anything about SJWs. If it did then I would be opposed to it. But it doesn't. QLDer in NSW (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Nobody is supporting this for political reasons. Some are opposing for political reasons though. Lack of specification which team it is is a serious problem for people trying to use Wikipedia. I have been confused by the poorly worded titles countless times. Sometimes I was reading an article for several minutes before I realized it was the men's, not women's, team. I found multiple instances in articles where someone was trying to link the women's team page, but accidentally linked the men's page because the neutral title is so easily mistaken for the women's team. (I took care to edit the links.) It's sincerely a problem. There is straight up no reason to be against this. It's a needed fix. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 02:47, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I was referring to the user's use of the term "SJW". QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:15, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I support the changes when there is a need to distinguish though I have made it clear that I would prefer to have Papua New Guinea national football team moved to Papua New Guinea men's national soccer team and all PNG soccer-related articles to be renamed to say "soccer" not "football" because (like in Australia) "soccer" is the most common term in PNG. QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Relisting this was a mistake. It will not reach consensus and it had plenty of participation. It's only inviting low effort and low quality participation at this point. Killuminator (talk) 20:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have already put my opinion on the matter here, if this does end up happening, how hard would it be to create a Wikipedia bot to sift through pages and edit links accurately? Yoblyblob (talk) 14:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Like it or not, when people refer to the Foo football team without further qualification or context they're almost invariably referring to the men's team. This is not chauvinism but simple fact. Women's football may be getting bigger all the time, but it'll be a very long time before it eclipses the men's game or its long history. I speak, incidentally, as somebody who cares nothing about football. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The women's game doesn't need to "eclipse" the men's game, it merely needs to reach the point where there is some ambiguity as to which team is being referred to. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And as I have said, there generally is not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First it is irrelevant for entry in encyclopedia - we have both women and men football and titles should reflect that; second, how you know all that data, you didn't do any research I suppose ? ౪ Santa ౪99° 20:21, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are obvious errors with this page move including the many redirects with many of these articles linking to thousands of other articles, some countries not even having their own women team and the fact that for nearly all of the articles mentioned, the men's teams are more frequently discussed and as aformentioned, violates WP:COMMONNAME and WP:UCRN. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, I agree with the points above as the move is against Wikipedia's guidelines on common name due to the men's teams having by far more page views and historical significance. Sahaib (talk) 19:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT. If the result is "Not move", which is rather likely, I would suggest we move Sweden men's national football team back to Sweden national football team, since there is no fundamental difference at all between Sweden and the countries listed above. Sadly, not many people engaged in that discussion. // Mattias321 (talk) 20:48, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The RM for Sweden reached consensus to move and (after briefly double checking) had greater participation than the RfC that brought us here. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Same as the RfC for the Australia men's national soccer team. As an Aussie I can confirm that we love both of our national teams and they are both quite good, therefore it is harder to distinguish between the two and it depends on the timing. In Australia we normally just say the "Socceroos" for the men and the "Matildas" for the women. QLDer in NSW (talk) 11:58, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When I think of Sweden national football team, I think of the women's team. They are significantly more successful than the men's team. I've heard the Sweden women's team talked about much more in the media. They are certainly way more popular in my country at least. Keep it consistent and title all the men's teams with men's in the name. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 03:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but it really doesn't matter what you think of. The men's team is more popular. I just don't see any difference between Sweden and the other Nordic countries here. Consistency is key. // Mattias321 (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which consistency - consistency is useful in our project, but at no costs should accuracy be sacrificed for consistency. It really doesn't matter which sport is more popular, they are two different sports, and the difference is in gender which should accurately be presented in the title. ౪ Santa ౪99° 05:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I suppose this matter has gone beyond the usual editorial Wikipedia channels for discussion, and that this has become a systemic and issue of principle for higher instances. starting with initiating a discussion on Meta. (This may be of some interest to Stevie fae Scotland as primer(?) initiator of this discussion). This is because I believe guidelines most often quoted, like WP:PRIMARY and WP:COMMONNAME simply do not cover this very specific problem in any let alone sufficient way.--౪ Santa ౪99° 20:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I would (I'm sure others would be interested too tbf). Do you have a link? Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't have some specific link; what I meant is that issue reached some threshold in nature of the problem that could and probably should be raised on Meta, say, at Requests_for_comment ౪ Santa ౪99° 10:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support For all countries with both men's and women's national teams. It's about accuracy, not RGW. Furthermore:
    Oppose/Not move !votes that wholesale reject based on something like "significance" are ill-considered: in the United States, Australia, various East Asian and Scandinavian countries, women's football is considered (or has been before) more popular than men's football.
    The presence of nicknames for national teams probably discounts any COMMONNAME !votes, as we aren't going to be moving "Argentina (men's/women's) national football team" to "La Albiceleste" anytime soon.
    Spain and England, for which the official style guides of the national associations either do not disambiguate either (Spain) or disambiguate both (England), and any other countries with similar guidelines, should probably be given the men's/women's treatment as a matter of process. This is something new for Spain – although Spanish media has for a while referred to both teams by the nickname La Roja – but has been done in England for several years (before 2020). English media also gives both teams neutral and nickname treatment. Kingsif (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree no one here is using common name or primary topic correctly. The common name of the Spanish men's team is obviously not "Spain national football team." It's not even common to say that phrase. And primary topic is a question of having parenthesis after the title to clarify what it is. It's not an argument for being ambiguous in titles because you expect people to guess what it means. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 03:33, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's common name in English-language sources. Which is not La Albiceleste or any other nickname. The common name would be "Argentina" if one was specifically talking about football or the "Argentina (or Argentine) football team" if one was not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:47, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Nicknames are hardly ever used for sports teams, regardless of if WP:COMMONNAME applies (for English-language sources, as for national sports teams that only really applies to Australia). QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:18, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - It's very important to remember when thinking of the common name, men's and women's are sometimes dropped from the title because you don't need to repetitively say men's and women's when it's obvious in the context. When talking about both, you ALWAYS need to differentiate which one you are talking about. Wikipedia has articles about both, so Wikipedia needs to specify which one it is talking about. The common name of the men's team when there is a men's and women's team ALWAYS includes men's. Primary topic is used to help avoid confusion. Spain (country) is so overstated it's actually more confusing than Spain, and it's nearly impossible to confuse it with Spain (instrumental). England national football team is EXTREMELY confusing, and it's so easy to confuse with the women's team it's basically asking to be confused. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 03:02, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Helpfulwikieditoryay: please read Wikipedia:BLUDGEON before continuing to add large comments/replies. Sahaib (talk) 15:55, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
People should be allowed to discuss the topic. Bludgeoning is pestering someone to answer and repeating the same argument. This is my first comment. My comment was short. I had something new to say. Many times, I chose to not reply, even when I had something to say. I've been careful not to respond to more than a few people in this giant discussion. I think I should be allowed just one comment. Helpfulwikieditoryay (talk) 02:46, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. :What do you mean men's football is primary? Shouldn't both of them be at equal level?Kxeon (talk) 22:55, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If some of the countries don't have women's team, it's still gonna put men's there right? Guyrichtheman (talk) 00:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is being discussed as some countries have a men's team but not a women's team (e.g Tuvalu). QLDer in NSW (talk) 03:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why shouldn't they ? ౪ Santa ౪99° 04:20, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Wikipedia has had gender bias against women from day 1 (ref). It's time for gender equality to take over misogyny. Sofeshue (talk) 10:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, for the sake of clarity and consistency + as a bonus, to make all the worst people mad. The existence of a women's team or lack thereof is absolutely irrelevant to the issue, unless there are countries that have only one national team that features both women and men (I don't know of any). --Sviraman (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Poorly planned example. Creates unnecessary disambiguations for countries that never had women's national football teams in the first place.Afrique0512 (talk) 14:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 9 October 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved - consensus to speedy close (non-admin closure) StAnselm (talk) 17:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


– Previous consensus had strong opposition due to unnecessary disambiguation pages. There are mistakes here please correct me on proper usage of soccer/football or on pages that are already labeled men’s/don’t have a women’s team to begin with. Yoblyblob (talk) 14:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: four redirects had to be removed from the list because redirects are ineligible to be current titles in move requests. Also had to remove Canada national soccer teamCanada men's national soccer team because the proposed new title is already used. The RMCD bot might find more problems with this multi-requested move proposal. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 15:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Aside from checking the teams individually, do we have a good page listing which teams do and don't have women's teams? I think confederation pages tend to be a decent source. Jay eyem (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2023

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Update the head coach: it is now Ashley Westwood (footballer, born 1976). [1]

The previous manager has been expelled. [2] Hnfus43 (talk) 14:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed Have updated the article to reflect this. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References