Talk:31 March incident

The contents of the 1909 Ottoman countercoup page were merged into 31 March incident on 25 October 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

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The 31 March Incident (or 31 March Event) is the name of a counter-revolutionary Islamists' coup headed by Dervish Vahdetti. Most of all contents of this article have to be explained in the article Ottoman countercoup of 1909 (a counter-coup by the Action Army). Takabeg (talk) 01:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it was not an Islamic Coup, it was actually against the Khalifa and the Khalif, The Young Turks made a secret plan to destroy the Ottoman Empire and create an anti-islamic turkey, excactly they have to be explained.

This article (31 March Incident) is written about the suppression of the revolt in Constantinople and the countercoup article is about the revolt itself. This distinction between the initial insurrection and its suppression isn't reflected in the sources, which use '31 March Incident' to either refer to the initial revolt & fall of the Ottoman cabinet, or to the complete chain of events (including the re-establishment of CUP control by the Action Army); using '31 March Incident' to refer only to the revolt's suppression is incorrect. The sources are divided over the nature of the mutiny (whether it was an organised counter-revolution or spontaneous slide into crisis caused by poor CUP organisation). The comment on this talk page from 2018 also illustrates how the suppression of the revolt can logically seen as a counter-coup, confusing things further (sources on JSTOR use 'countercoup' to describe the revolt/attempt to restore the Sultan (e.g. p.137), and not as a proper noun). As '31 March Incident' is the common name, I suggest the countercoup article be merged into this article; extraneous detail about the revolt's suppression and occupation of Constantinople can be moved into Action Army. See here for further notes/sources. Jr8825 • Talk 17:49, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jr8825: 6 weeks later and it looks like no one has any objections, so go for it. —howcheng {chat} 18:35, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the message @Howcheng:, I've been meaning to go ahead with this but the main limitation has been finding the time to do so. I hope to get round to it at some point within the next couple of weeks. Jr8825 • Talk 23:33, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Abdulhamid Cartoon 1909.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again Benlittlewiki, thanks for your work on this today. Regarding the infobox, I respectfully (and strongly) disagree that it's appropriate for this article. I've read quite extensively on this, and historians are divided as to who precisely was involved in the insurrection, who supported what, and what the exact nature of the whole thing was – it was chaotic, spontaneous and there were often no clear sides. There's clear disagreement over Abdulhamid II's role (it's likely inaccurate to list him as a leader), Ahmet Tevfik Pasha has been described as an opportunist (rather than leading opposition to the CUP), it seems wrong to list the National Assembly as being in blanket opposition to the new government (surely only the CUP aligned deputies?) and I don't recall seeing many mentions of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. I'm also unsure about the reliability of the strength estimates. Basically, I don't think this is a topic suitable for a neat division into two opposing "sides", I don't think it's supported by sources and I think it's likely to lead to inaccuracies.

I'm going to revert the addition for now. If you feel equally strongly that the article should include it, perhaps the best option is getting outside opinion, either via a message on the talk page of a relevant wikiproject or an RfC.

As an aside, I do intend to finish off the rewrite of this article and complete the merger – I regret I had to leave it half-finished because of off-wiki commitments, and I'm now tied up with time-limited work elsewhere (I'm trying to improve an article listed at WP:FARC before its delisted). I'm currently hoping to be able to return some time in the next month. All the best, Jr8825 • Talk 19:41, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input @Jr8825, you seem to know a lot about this subject. If you believe this conflict is too complicated for an infobox, then so be it. Benlittlewiki (talk) 04:21, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]