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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Despite a lot of the keep !votes lacking any valid arguments, noone who wants to delete the article has sufficiently explained why the coverage do not meet the standards of WP:GNG (the Camus chapter or the IGN article for example were not really discussed). There is support to merge the Cain and Abel articles, the discussion of this proposal should continue on the relevant talk pages. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Abel (DC Comics)

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Abel (DC Comics) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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No indication of real world notabilty. Onel5969 TT me 01:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 02:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 02:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge but not delete. Recurring DC character. But notable? Maybe. Since he was a featured recurring hosted characters from DC for a long time . We shall see. All it is missing is reception in all honesty. I should note that this editor is just baiting what seems like new articles but isn’t because it was an old duo article. Jhenderson 777 02:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment note:I decided to strike my merge vote. In my personal opinion it proves notability with my copy edits and research on topic but I can’t speak for everybody on here just yet. It’s better but it ain’t perfect yet. Also with an adaption of the Sandman I feel there might be more coverage of related characters in the future. Here is hoping the Netflix adaptation is well hyped. Jhenderson 777 21:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Recurring character across multiple significant titles. Artw (talk) 03:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete "It's a recurring character" is not a valid argument unless someone can come up with sources that prove notability. There are many recurring characters that lack any sort of notability whatsoever. This article is entirely plotcruft that is more fit for a fan wiki.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 06:34, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

* I can't say it better than I already said it at WP:Articles for deletion/Cain (DC Comics):

This warrants mentioning at Cain and Abel#Cultural references or another character article, but I don't see how it warrants an article in itself. Here is some primary and secondary coverage for the topic, but not a tonne:

https://ew.com/tv/2018/10/30/chilling-adventures-of-sabrina-sandman-homage/?amp=true
https://bloody-disgusting.com/comics/3615993/dark-side-dc-five-horror-comics-binge-read-dc-universe/
https://www.cbr.com/comic-creators-models-cain-and-abel-len-wein/
https://screenrant.com/swamp-thing-magic-dc-universe/
https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/beginners-guide-dc-horror/
Darkknight2149 08:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Darkknight2149 08:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dislike that idea. Because that implies they are original The Sandman characters. They aren’t. Jhenderson 777 13:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The target section starts with a subsection talking about their first appearances and early roles. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Still there is better options to place the merge IMO. If a merge is the definite outcome of the vote. Jhenderson 777 22:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to alternatives. What did you have in mind? Argento Surfer (talk) 13:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
: I am still more leniant on keep, @Argento Surfer:, though they can go on the letter list article of DC if merged. Jhenderson 777 01:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Argento Surfer: What are your thoughts on the revised version of the article? Darkknight2149 21:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect or delete - The topic fails to establish notability through sufficient reliable sources needed to meet WP:GNG. It's mostly plot summary so it should be limited to the scope of the primary work in which the character appears. TTN (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Let this page stay. Cain and Abel should deserve separate articles per the suggestion of @Jhenderson777: and @Artw:. --Rtkat3 (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete. (copying my comment from Cain AfD since the sources here and there are identical). I have a soft spot for Gaiman's stuff, which seems to be the 'high literature' of comics anyway. Sadly, the sources above are very bad (one mentions the subject in a single sentence, that's the very definition of trivial, in passing mention as defined in GNG). The only better source is [1], but it is still still a single one. But at least that's one relatively in-depth source. Can we find one more? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:58, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: There are decent references already present in the article which have not been addressed here, including American Comic Book Chronicles, an independent reliable source. — Toughpigs (talk) 16:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Cain (DC Comics) - After the major improvements to both articles, I am now convinced that the content is keepable. However, I am not convinced that Cain and Abel are independently notable from each other. Both of these articles need to be combined. Darkknight2149 21:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Sizable article well supported with references. The nomination reference of ‘real world’ makes no sense to me - that certainly does not seem to be a relevant criteria here.--Concertmusic (talk) 20:27, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - fyi, no real world notability is part of WP:NFICTION, "Articles on fiction elements are expected to cover more about "real-world" aspects of the element, such as its development and reception, than "in-universe" details." In this article, all the real world references are short blurbs or mere mentions, rather than in-depth coverage. Onel5969 TT me 22:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are you talking about User:Jhenderson777/Cain and Abel (DC Comics)? Or this still? Not sure why you randomly messaged this though I feel there is sources that describe them in great detail for GNG. In my subjective mindset anyway. Jhenderson 777 23:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also your link is an essay. Essays are not guidelines. Just a heads up. Jhenderson 777 23:30, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the clarification on real world. Having said that, outside of the section on the fictional character biography, the rest of the article does enough to satisfy me. Also, since we are really discussing 3 separate articles here, I’d very much like to keep the set as a whole.--Concertmusic (talk) 23:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That’s fine. The sandbox is in case the consensus is to put it back. We already two editors on the Cain AFD suggest that. But I don’t mind either way. Jhenderson 777 23:48, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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