Talk:4th Time Around

4th Time Around is currently a Songs good article nominee. Nominated by BennyOnTheLoose (talk) at 13:00, 5 September 2022 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria. Further reviews are welcome from any editor who has not contributed significantly to this article (or nominated it), and can be added to the review page, but the decision whether or not to list the article as a good article should be left to the first reviewer.

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A fact from 4th Time Around appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 September 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that Bob Dylan's "4th Time Around" has been interpreted as a parody of the Beatles' song "Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)"? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2022/September. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/4th Time Around.

An essay about a single song by Bob Dylan, which says it's Dylan's version of the song "Norweigan [sic] Wood", or maybe "Norwiegan [sic] Wood". I realize that Dylanology is still a booming business, but this song is no "Blowing in the Wind" and I wonder if it's all that notable; meanwhile, this article as it now stands contains what I'll charitably term "original research". -- Hoary 03:39, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

• Delete, a song that is barely notable, certainly looks like a POV original research. Megan1967 04:36, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Keep -- The article obviously needs some major cleanup but the article on Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown) makes mentions that this song was a response to "Norwegian Wood". DCEdwards1966 05:33, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, Norwegian Wood notes this topic. Wyss 06:08, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Added cleanup header. --Viriditas | Talk 06:59, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Trust cleanup and keep. Samaritan 10:20, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Would it be too much to compare this with Back in the U.S.S.R.? Keep. Cool Hand Luke 10:32, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. --JuntungWu 13:03, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Weak Keep. Definitely needs cleanup. Perhaps the song isn't that notable, but given Dylan's notability, by extension any song he wrote is certainly of some interest. Just merging it into Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown) (note: I fixed the link to bypass the redirect) would not do it justice. --RoySmith 14:47, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• comment, no vote. If this was Dylanology, you'd get about four pages of detailed discussion on whether it came before, after, or simultaneously with Norwegian Wood. (There's an elaborate story involving hotel rooms and rubbish bins, I think, but I forget the details). The linkage between them is, um, canonically accepted... or however you might want to term that; not research original to the article author, anyway. Is a random Dylan song encyclopedic? Couldn't comment. What do we have for precedent? (Tending towards a week keep with a rewrite, but...) Shimgray 17:01, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Of course a Dylan song is notable Philip 03:14, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• keep - David Gerard 20:00, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, it's a crappy article, but doesn't deserve deletion, I think. Tuf-Kat 23:58, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
• Serious Editing Needed, this article is just not good and is more opinion than anything. If one thing needs to go, it's the "direct message to Lennon" bit. The song is notable not only because of its relation to "Norwegian Wood" but also because there's a Byrds song with the same melody. I don't know which song, but there was a George Harrison interview in Guitar World quite a while ago where he reflects on how that melody was being passed around between several bands. Dylan also played it during the acoustic half of the 65-66 tour. The acoustic set included "Desolation Row," "Mr. Tambourine Man," "Visions of Johanna," and "Just Like A Woman" which are all very strong songs, so he apparently thinks highly of "4th Time Around."--68.49.56.238 23:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As a huge Dylan-fan i've pondered over the lyrics a lot, and my interpretation is a lot different. As I see it, the narrator in the song visits a prostitute since his wife, being disabled, is unable to satisfy him sexually. (...I tried to make sense/ out of that picture of you in your wheelchair...) Upon realising that the prostitute and his wife know each other he panics for fear the wife might find out, and strangles the prostitute to death. Later he confesses to his wife, with no sign of remorse. If this interpretation is correct the title of the song would also make sense, since the story takes place during the fourth visit to the prostitute. I was just wondering if anybody else has thought the same thing about the song. JesperLærke 02:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

end moved discussion

Someone enjoys using the word "boasts" a lot and wrongly.

"4th Time Around" was commonly speculated to be a response to The Beatles' song "Norwegian Wood" - written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney for their 1965 album Rubber Soul - as the two tracks boast a reasonably similar melody and lyrical premise. "Norwegian Wood" was considered an artistic leap for Lennon, as it was his earliest story-song and boasted an obvious Dylan-influence.

FIXED. Whether "boasting" can be used in this context is debatable... More importantly, it was stylistically horrible. -- GWO (talk)

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Is it "4th Time Around" or "Fourth Time Around"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.208.8 (talk) 17:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It says "4th" on my copy.--Deke42 (talk) 23:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't suppose there's any way of confirming this unless it was recorded in some way at the time, but although Dylan normally gave oblique/meaningless/indecipherable replies to questions about 'Norwegian wood'/'4th time around' I'm sure I once saw a street interview in which he just said "It needed finishing", which I took to mean that '4th time' was the end of the story started in NW. So I tried listening to them in that light and it does work, but... well, can anyone confirm from a reliable source that he said it, and am I interpreting it correctly? --Deke42 (talk) 23:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:4th Time Around/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tkbrett (talk · contribs) 21:13, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review to come. Tkbrett (✉) 21:13, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• It is thought to be a parody of "Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)", a song written by John Lennon and recorded by the Beatles, which was released on their 1965 album Rubber Soul. This sentence seems a little long. If you break it apart, you could also include more context regarding the influence Dylan had on Lennon's writing of "Norwegian Wood".
  • Amended, but could probably be improved further. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, I think we can sharpen it up further. How about something like this? Commentators often interpret it as a parody of the Beatles' 1965 song "Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)". John Lennon^[a] composed "Norwegian Wood" after being influenced by the introspective lyrics of Dylan. Lennon later reflected on his feelings of paranoia when Dylan first played him "4th Time Around".
      • Much better - sorry I left this to you! Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Nice and detailed. No issues.

• Unless Heylin makes it clear that he's speculating, maybe try a different word (MOS:CLAIM).
  • The source is "Presumably Dylan penned this impenetrable pastiche only days (or hours) before he began recording it in Nashville". - is that OK? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it should be fine in this case.
• "4th Time Around" has been interpreted as a response to the Beatles' song "Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)" ... It's awkward to start a sentence with a digit. Also, this sentence is in the passive voice, so fixing that will solve both issues. The sentence should be rewritten as Commentators often interpret "4th Time Around" as a response ...
  • Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think you missed this one.
      • Ooops. Not sure if I didn't save the change, or amended the lead instead of here. Should be OK now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Good.

• Good.

• Instead of just writing The personnel for "4th Time Around" were as follows, I think given the uncertainty it would be better to specify, According to Olof Björner, the personnel ...
• Björner's site lists the personnel differently. Differences are highlighted below:

• Bob Dylan – vocals, guitar, piano, harmonica
• Wayne Moss – guitar
• Charlie McCoy – bass guitar, guitar, bass harmonica
• Robbie Robertson – guitar
• Joe South – bass guitar, guitar
• Al Kooper – organ
• Kenneth Buttrey – drums

• I wasn't sure why the asterisk was there on the organ. I don't hear piano, but I guess that's because Björner isn't listing the personnel for "4th Time Around", but instead for the entire February 14 session, which would include "Visions of Johanna" and "Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat". A different source may help here. Does Clinton Heylin ever list the personnel? I believe Philippe Margotin and Jean-Michel Guesdon's book Bob Dylan All the Songs will have personnel listings for each track.
  • I've used Sanders 2020. Margotin and Guedson have the same musicians, but with a (?) against Kooper and McCoy (who they list for "guitar, bass, harmonica"). Sanders states that he has access to the full 18 disc set of the Blonde on Blonde sessions, and his interviewees for his book included Johnston, McCoy, Kooper, and Moss. Heylin, who is generally scathing about other writers on Dylan, gave the book a nice blurb: "Detailed and diligent". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's much better. I'm glad you have a grasp of the available sources since I don't know much about the different Dylan authors.

• I was concerned that Björner looked just like a fan's blog, but I see now that he is trusted by other scholars and has had a book published by a real publisher. That alleviates my concerns by WP:BLOG.
  • Yes, his site is used as a source by most, if not all, of the main authors. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:47, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Copyvio score of 43.5%, only because of direct quotations by Lennon. No concerns regarding plagiarism.
• I've made other fixes as I went through. Please make sure nothing looks objectionable.
  • Thanks for those. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:47, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• BennyOnTheLoose:  On hold while issues above are addressed. Tkbrett (✉) 12:47, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks, Tkbrett. I've replied above - hopefully this resolves your points, but perhaps lead may need a bit more work. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:47, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Responses above. Sorry for really dragging this out on you BennyOnTheLoose. I'll make sure this gets done once you respond. Tkbrett (✉) 20:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks, Tkbrett. Your comments have definitely improved the article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:30, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • BennyOnTheLoose, happy to help. ✓ Pass Tkbrett (✉) 21:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

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