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Amazing Michigan State isn't a part of this discussion. While it's not quite as highly rated as UI or UM, it's a very good engineering school and a bargain compared to U-M or UI (as an out-of-state student)... People act like UM is the only school in the state; ... on earth.
TheProf,
I know this is a little off subject; but I also know that Michigan State has an awesome Jazz faculty in their music department. MSU - College of Music - Professors of Jazz Being a former Jazz major myself (not at Michigan State) and one who has seen a great many Jazz musicians over the years, I can tell you that Rodney Whitaker is one of the most talented jazz bass players in the world. I saw him a while back playing a solo on the upright acoustic bass that was so lyrical and technically far more advanced than any jazz bass player I've ever heard or seen. By way of reference: when I was a jazz theory and composition major at the University of Miami in Florida (too many years ago to mention), Jaco Pastorius visited one of my classes. The entire hour was Jaco playing bass solos and talking about jazz. Now Jaco was playing an electric bass (technically a whole lot easier than an upright acoustic bass). Jaco is known as one who could make his electric bass sing. Well Rodney makes his upright sing even more!
Sorry for the diversion away from the engineering school topic. But as a musician and software engineer I think there is more to life than just engineering.
But for sheer "notoriety" and reputation amidst the masses of job recruiters, headhunters and human resource generalists (the ones who will give your son a job), I would say hands down University of Michigan is the better school for pretty much anything. No offense to the UI grads, but honestly I don't think many people in this country could even find Champaign-Urbana (sp?) on a map, or they probably think U of I is in Chicago, and don't really know what the school is known for. But it sounds like it might have a good reputation in engineering circles.
Why does finding a school matter? Can you find Cal Tech on a map? Do you even know what city or state it's in? I doubt it. Waterloo engineering is almost always considered in the elite group unlike Michigan. Do you know where Waterloo is? For that matter, do people outside MI know where Ann Arbor is?
And again we're talking engineering here. We continue to go down the path of bringing up largely irrelevant things like sports and location. I guess Magellan missed the quotes by Bill Gates et al about Illinois engineering. Yeah, I heard that New York is an "okay" town, lol.
Just want to again thank you for all of the information. My son, his friend, and I are heading for UM for campus days in Feb. since we have already been to UIUC. The tuition for out of state residents for engineering it is $41,000 for tuition, fees, room and board, books, and other expenses. UM is $42,500. Not much difference-all are expensive once you step out of state (exception is U of Minnesota which offered Washington residents only $2,000 over in-state tuition). My only concern now after hearing about all of the super intelligent people attending these campuses, is how can one survive competing with all of these super elites? As an aside, my son has played trombone since grade school but does not plan on continuing through college (mom is sad), but maybe enough engineers can convince him to join the band since they appear to have a large contingent. Who knows?
Even though UIUC might be better suited from what appears to be an organizational stand point (which would really help our son), the pull is that he has two brothers and six nieces and nephews who live in Plymouth, MI (that, and you can fly direct). So UIUC supporters, don't take it as anything personal if he chooses UM.
Why does finding a school matter? Can you find Cal Tech on a map? Do you even know what city or state it's in? I doubt it. Waterloo engineering is almost always considered in the elite group unlike Michigan. Do you know where Waterloo is? For that matter, do people outside MI know where Ann Arbor is?
And again we're talking engineering here. We continue to go down the path of bringing up largely irrelevant things like sports and location. I guess Magellan missed the quotes by Bill Gates et al about Illinois engineering. Yeah, I heard that New York is an "okay" town, lol.
No need to get testy Cato.
I'm just speaking in general, from the perception of 99.5% of the population. And yes, I guarantee a lot of people outside of Michigan know where Ann Arbor is, or have at least heard of it and University of Michigan. Most of UofM's students are out-of-staters and international students. I've met more New Yorkers in Ann Arbor then in New York, lol!
And really, who cares what Bill Gates thinks about engineering schools? Microsoft's technology is so-so and riddled with problems since Windows 95. His brilliance comes from his business acumen and ruthlessness, not his engineering know-how. Gates didn't even graduate from college.
xcalgal, I don't think UofM is as ruthless as you might think, but it is extremely competitive. He might find it hard to find time to stay in music, but a well rounded student is a happier student. I'd keep encouraging him.
Regardless, like I said from the beginning, I think the best opinions come from those who have no emotional attachment to MI and are non-natives. I don't get that sense with most of the posts here. Like I said, I'm a MIT, Penn, Stanford grad so I have no axe to grind. But saying that you speak for 99.5% of the US population is pretty ridiculous. Yeah, MI is a great school, but I and 99.99% of people out there would pick Berkeley and a bunch of privates over U of M in a New York second, despite the fact that 99.5% of Michiganders out there apparently think that somehow a R1 research institution with 40,000 students is the best education period for everyone.
Regardless, like I said from the beginning, I think the best opinions come from those who have no emotional attachment to MI and are non-natives. I don't get that sense with most of the posts here. Like I said, I'm a MIT, Penn, Stanford grad so I have no axe to grind. But saying that you speak for 99.5% of the US population is pretty ridiculous. Yeah, MI is a great school, but I and 99.99% of people out there would pick Berkeley and a bunch of privates over U of M in a New York second, despite the fact that 99.5% of Michiganders out there apparently think that somehow a R1 research institution with 40,000 students is the best education period for everyone.
The OP asked about two specific schools that they had narrowed it down to: UI and UofM. Not any other schools around the country. When I said 99.5% of the population, I meant those people in the "sphere of influence" of this thread and Michigan.
If someone told me they pretty much had their mind set on Subway or Blimpies and asked me which I thought was better, I wouldn't say "Arby's". I was speaking directly about University of Michigan and University of Corn.
Just want to again thank you for all of the information. My son, his friend, and I are heading for UM for campus days in Feb. since we have already been to UIUC. The tuition for out of state residents for engineering it is $41,000 for tuition, fees, room and board, books, and other expenses. UM is $42,500. Not much difference-all are expensive once you step out of state (exception is U of Minnesota which offered Washington residents only $2,000 over in-state tuition). My only concern now after hearing about all of the super intelligent people attending these campuses, is how can one survive competing with all of these super elites? As an aside, my son has played trombone since grade school but does not plan on continuing through college (mom is sad), but maybe enough engineers can convince him to join the band since they appear to have a large contingent. Who knows?
xcalgal, My son is in his second semester at Michigan as an engineering student. He loves it there. Last semester he had 18 credit hours which included 2 hours in a piano course (private lessons with a piano professor). This semester he has 18 credit hours - without piano. So he couldn't take the piano course without paying more tuition. Everything up to 18 was covered by his scholarship. Solution: the piano professor offered to give him private piano lessons for free. He is also involved in a lot of other extra curricular activities (e.g., plays violin in a student lead orchestra, Model UN, volunteering on a hot line, keeping a relationship going with his girlfriend, hanging out with friends, etc.) Just like the rest of us, students find a way to fit it all in.
Tell your son not to give up his trombone - i.e., if he really likes playing. There's plenty of time for doing things that you love if you organize your time - even for engineering students. As a bone player he could play in Michigan's marching band and attend all of the football games free. But I hear that is a pretty big commitment. Way back in another century I played in a band with a drummer who was in dental school at U of M. He also played in their marching band. That cat was one busy guy. Whether or not your son decides to play in the marching band; I highly recommend he get a season pass to the football games. I went to one with my son - bought a ticket from a friend who normally sits next to him. It was an awesome experience. The students make a real day out of football Saturdays. They all have such a blast!!!
There are other school bands besides the marching band that your son could play in (e.g., some only have a one day a week rehearsal commitment). I guess it all depends on what one wants to do. But chances are if he starts giving up the things he loves in college; he will probably end up doing the same after he starts working. There's nothing better than picking up one's musical instrument for an hour or whatever time is available. For one it helps to get ones creative energies flowing. And we sure could use more creative people in industry in this country. We have so many very highly educated people from top institutions of learning who lack creativity. What used to make this country so great was all of the creativity and inventiveness. Some of the top engineers at the very large computer hardware, software, and services company I work for are musicians - some of whom have even performed at Carnegie Hall. Tell your son to keep up his trombone playing. It will pay more dividends than just a few minutes of relaxation and fun each day. :-)
Just got back from our trip to Ann Arbor to see U of M for campus days. I have got to say that I was a little let down. Yes, the weather was a chilly 9 degrees but that wasn't it. The students that were on the student panel and who gave us the tour were a little disappointing. One boy couldn't say the word, 'fabulous' enough. Another girl was into the Spice Girls contest and talking about all of the girls buying this "really cool Michigan T-Shirt." Others seemed socially challenged (you guessed it... the engineers -and no comment because I am married to a really great engineer husband). The North campus seemed so boring and far removed from the main campus. The dorms were very sad. Maybe all of the normal (or maybe this is normal and I am just an old fuddy duddy) kids were studying and being smart by staying out of the cold weather. Okay all of you, U of Michigan alumni, please give me a reason that I should love this school. U of I and the beautiful campus or U of Wisc. Madison with the happier looking students are looking better.
I'm sure people will chime in soon, but I'm glad you went to the visit not blinded by the Blue. For any large state school, any student's mileage will vary significantly depending on a large number of factors. The most important thing to do is to look at these practical aspects and put yourself in the best position to succeed. There is no school that is the right choice for everyone, including Harvard, Princeton, Cal, etc. Good luck.
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