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Commerce Over Charity, with Bob Bush – Episode 485 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On May 6, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • Business, CEO, Dubai, failure, leadership, learning, success, values, Wall Street
Bob Bush, senior investment executive and the President, CEO and Co-Founder of Mutombo Coffee, shares the life lessons he learned on early-morning bus rides, and reflects on being allowed to fail (a little bit), talking his way onto Wall Street, getting “behind the numbers”, the head and the heart connection, helping develop Dubai, defining “social […]
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  • Bob Bush, senior investment executive and the President, CEO and Co-Founder of Mutombo Coffee, shares the life lessons he learned on early-morning bus rides, and reflects on being allowed to fail (a little bit), talking his way onto Wall Street, getting “behind the numbers”, the head and the heart connection, helping develop Dubai, defining “social impact”, and being valuable instead of just being important.

    About Bob:

    Robert (Bob) Bush Jr. is a senior investment executive with experience across industries, geographies (USA, Europe, China, Middle East, and Africa), as well as asset classes (venture capital, private equity, Islamic Finance). He has engaged in various financial and operating special projects for sovereign-related entities, family businesses, family offices, investment companies, corporations, and startups. Bob has provided live television commentary and keynotes at global conferences on innovation, social impact, sustainability, global investing, and international trade. His unique experiences, love for learning and teaching, as well as an established network of relationships, fuel his interests in innovative business models, public private partnerships, and entrepreneurship. Bob’s international experiences with multinational corporations and government advisory as well as his love for learning and teaching have given him a unique perspective on solving global challenges.

    Currently, Bob serves as the President, CEO, and Co-Founder, along with the late NBA Hall of Famer, Dikembe Mutombo, of Mutombo Coffee, as well as an Advisor to the European Commission, Royal Families, and Dubai Prime Minister, and a Contributing Writer to ForbesMiddleEast.com.

    Mutombo Coffee is an African-American and woman-owned brand that invests in female-led coffee farms, embodying their mission as a 'coffee with a cause.'

    Bob’s overall business transactions have totaled more than $30 Billion, and he has co-managed assets nearing $10 Billion (USD).

    Learn more at MutomboCoffee.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Adam Outland
    It's great to meet you Bob, and I'm excited to talk about your most recent endeavors around this. One of the things I really love is exploring the journey to the current destination. When you see someone who's generated unique success, I feel like your resume unique is a good explanation. Really excited to dig into it, because it's so different than a lot of the experience that people have that have been on the show in the past. So hear a little bit of the journey. Of course, we can talk about the current destination as well.

    Bob Bush
    Yeah, love to do that. I mean, sometimes I think the journey looks more like a vagabond, and other times it's a little bit more purposeful. But in all cases, it's been wonderful.

    Adam Outland
    I love it. So tell me, you know early days, what were some of your conceptions of what your you thought your path was going to be? What track were you on when you were at a young person, and then what changed?

    Bob Bush
    Thank you for that good question. And I'm not one to really do a lot of reflecting and reflection. I do a lot of introspection, but not a lot of reflecting. And I would say the first journey of any meaning that might be interesting to the listeners is a journey that I took, in fact, my first year of high school, I was born and raised in Southern Illinois, the Mississippi River bifurcates, Missouri and Illinois. So I'm on the East St Louis side, looking at the arch on the St Louis Missouri side. And for four years, I commuted by bus, often two busses, occasionally three busses to get to high school. And so I would say my most significant data point on this journey, as meandering as it's been, is that commute. You know, I'm 1314, years old. Can't drive yet, needed to get to. I went to a Jesuit boys school across the river, very fine School in St Louis, that commute and being and I was undersized. I was a bespectacle kid. I was a geeky kid. My book bag weighed almost as much as I did. So you know those images of these little kids with their backpacks and stuff, and so I'm kind of dragging my, my pounds of books to classes every day, just the interaction with the public, right? The lady who's, you know, at 6:30am she's just finished her shift, or maybe the guy who just finished his his midnight shift. And then there's the lady who's on her way to work, because she's, you know, working in a as a as a baker, and all these different sort of types of people as I'm making my way to school, and I wasn't scared and intimidated at all about it, but I'm like, How did my parents allow me to do that? Right? And they said they were scared, but I wanted to go to a good school. I enjoyed the challenge of that, and I wasn't bothered by the two plus hour commute. I was up at 530 whatever I got done, I wasn't sitting at my desk by eight for those four years. So that was the first journey, and I remember thinking as I would go back and forth, either going towards the arch or away from the arch. It was a tale of two cities, and I actually wrote about that for my entrance exams for college. How is it that such a short piece of river that's less than a mile wide, the difference could be so grand and so great, and so I'm leaving what would be called the inner city of East St Louis, going into this beautiful campus with very bright kids, and it comes from the St Louis side. I'm sitting behind people whose parents own some of the biggest companies in the Midwest, certainly in St Louis sports teams and engineering companies and law firms, and that Taylor two cities was very stark, but I learned through my classmates, etc, that there was much more we had in common than not.

    Adam Outland
    Oh, that's really extraordinary. And, you know, I think, you know, you get into a different environment. What I heard in your story that actually made me want to ask another question. First is it sounded like you said you You made this choice that you wanted to go to the school.

    Bob Bush
    Yeah. And I can tell you, it's tough to make any young teenager or kid, you know, at a certain point do anything. It's just almost impossible. So one of the things that my parents did is allow you to make choices, allow you to fail a little bit, but not too much. A scared me is okay. Maybe a broken arm is okay for. Some parents, but let's not lose a limb, right? Yeah. And so yeah, it was truly a choice to go because I I had a fire and an appetite for I was very intellectually curious, and unfortunately, the programs and the schools that were sort of the easy commute were going to meet my academic interests, and so I had to there were two schools that across on the st louis side that I that were considered nationally ranked and world class. I didn't know what the Ivy League was called and all that stuff. Then I just knew that I showed a little bit of aptitude, and I wanted to be around, you know, an intense sort of learning environment. And so it was 100% my choice that my parents supported. The tuition was quite expensive. I sometimes worked after school, and it taught me discipline and but I it was a wonderful academic setting. So it's certainly it was my choice, and it was a choice that really put me on a very firm footing as I went to other steps in that journey.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, well, you take out any any part of the rest of your story, and you already have, you know, a predictive amount of success that you know is coming out of a young teenager. Because the other thing I do know about teenagers is that they're not typically very inspired to work extra hard.

    Bob Bush
    Unbelievable.

    Adam Outland
    So to actively make the choice for academic rigor and to get on a bus of strangers, to get down there says just a lot about the kind of character you had.

    Bob Bush
    Two, brother. Two busses, sometimes three. But it was fun. Learning was fun. Learning is still fun. I'm still hyper curious. So it wasn't I didn't consider it rigorous or challenging, it was just kind of a natural thing. So I guess I've been blessed in that one.

    Adam Outland
    So take that observation and then move that forward through college to your entry into the professional world, like the things that just occurred naturally to you. Yeah, okay, I'll take three busses to get to a school that's academically rigorous that I can learn from, of course. That makes sense. How did that interplay into your early career as a professional?

    Bob Bush
    Oh, boy, so lots and so I'll tell you a story. I I was a philosophy major. Went to a small college, Amherst College, about 1600 kids. In fact, my college was about the same size as my high school, and I chose there because it was one of the toughest colleges to get into. I'd never been to Boston, certainly not to Amherst. And we went to looked at the big, you know, Ivy League schools, and I fell in love with the little college setting, and studied philosophy and English literature, read Latin and Greek. And so I'm I'm around looking at all what my friends are doing and classmates, and they're going to Wall Street, they're going to consulting firms, they're getting their MBAs. And so wanted to learn more about that. But mind you, I hadn't studied finance or any of that stuff, but I applied to Wall Street because that's where my friends were going. And I heard you could make a lot of money doing it. And much to my surprise, they said, What does a philosopher have to do with making money on Wall Street? And I said, Well, I don't know, but I did pretty well in school. If I don't have the same answer that all the other kids give you, I bet I'll give you an interesting one. So they said, Okay, you young whippersnapper, we're going to put you in sales. And I said, No, I want to be in mergers and acquisitions. They're like, You gotta be kidding. The M A guys, they're the Masters of the Universe. Like, you gotta have a very strong economic and maybe physics are certainly math, grounding, etc, finance grounding. What do we do with you there? And I said, Well, I'll learn it. Give me a chance. And so I talked my way into being a financial analyst at a major Wall Street firm, and they kicked my butt because I didn't know nothing. 80 hour weeks, 90 hour weeks, some 100 hour weeks, and I was put on the largest leverage buyout in the history of finance, RJR Nabisco, and I was one of the analysts on that deal. And so I went from studying philosophy to doing high stakes, large buyouts as an analyst, and I had to make up for what I didn't know. But I'm quite competitive, and I enjoyed learning it, and I was a geek, so I didn't mind if I miss social activities and stuff. I was sort of single minded about learning this craft, but I had to bust my hump, and occasionally I was hazed and all of that. And that's just part of it. There were not a lot of African Americans on Wall Street doing that kind of work at all. And so the notion of having a mentor or having the support system, they, you know, they throw you in the middle of the baton, and you swim or you don't. And I just sort of, well, let's just get on with it. And so I kind of Mr. Magood my way through all of these things that others would say are challenges and and because, by the grace of God, I. Always landed on my feet.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, with that analyst role, you being as curious as you are, like, what were a couple of key observations that you made as an analyst that said, I can make a career out of this thing?

    Bob Bush
    I'm not so sure. Cuz now, looking on hindsight, I don't want to appear to be smarter than I was then, but certainly so there's the observations I was making real time, of course, and then there's the looking back 40 years observations. And so I don't want to sort of conflate them, but it's kind of difficult to couple them, but sort of one of the things that is a thread from my experience in high school and the experience I had being in another pulled environment with financial analysts and these Wall Street bankers and stuff is that there really isn't that much difference, a little bit of grit, a little bit of hard work, being coachable, having some discipline. It's all the same kind of stuff. So one observation was, whatever the challenge happened to be, despite the fact I didn't sort of walk in with the same sort of skill set, what I did have, from my liberal arts background and my philosophy background was very helpful. I got some fundamental understanding of how to approach a problem, how to solve a problem, how to think through a problem, thinking about methods and processes, etc. And so I then I realized that why I navigated the philosophy in the first place? Because I'm not particularly intimidated by chaos or mess or data that doesn't seem to align. I have a bit of a natural ability, thank goodness, but some training to go into, whether it's any field, I think, and through a little bit of hard work start myself out. And so I think that was one of the key observations, is that this is just another problem to solve.

    Adam Outland
    Beautiful. Philosophy is a lot of things, but there are a lot of rubrics for problem solving baked into philosophy. And I feel like so much of navigating business and growing business is a matter of of untying the knots and solving the problems that are both inside and inside the business and and the big problems that are the business is designed to solve for everyone else.

    Bob Bush
    That's right. Well, you know the biggest knot, right? It's the people problem, that's the biggest knot.

    Adam Outland
    People are your biggest problem and your greatest asset. So, so how do you get just help us skip over to this component. You know, your your role as a senior investment executive took you to a lot of different geographies. I mean, well, outside of the US, what drove you in that direction? Or maybe it wasn't your choice.

    Bob Bush
    Well, another sort of dot on this journey. We had a friend and an undergrad who sister lived in Dubai in the early 90s, and she was very cute, and he was very cool, and he says going to visit my sister, as she lives in Dubai, said, I'll come along. Never been to Dubai. And so we went to the desert, and I hung out with Kareem and spent some time with him and his family, etc. So that I first traveled to Dubai was personal one, and just for fun. And while I was there, I was talking to a gentleman who was a Bedouin, and he was dressed in local garb, and he said, What are you doing here? And I said, I'm on vacation. And he started laughing, right? This is the early 90s, so he's struggling. Well, what are you doing on vacation? I said, Well, I'd never been and my friend is here. So we started chatting, and he said something to me, very profound. He said, We don't need you here. And I said, What do you mean? He says, we can send our kids all over the world to your schools. So if you ever want to come back and you want to do something here, it's not what you know, it's not your learning, it's how you communicate and whether you understand my culture and you can communicate with me. And he literally took his hand and he moved it from his head to his heart. You make that the head heart connection. And I would love to have you back, but if you think you're going to go and you're with your fancy schools, to come back and teach us something or help us with something, don't need you for that. And I really thought about that because I was contemplating going to business school and doing more finance, etc, and I shifted to go to study international relations, Arabic at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. So rather than getting a traditional finance degree, I went and started language skills, economics, cultural orientations in Washington, DC, that actually helped orientate me to, yeah, this is not about just the dollars and the cents. There are people behind this, right? You know, there's the famous the famous phrase that pilots don't fly planes, they fly people. And so if you really want to get behind the numbers, you got to understand. What those numbers represent?

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, it's not just about recording the data. It's it's how your ability to interpret it that really makes a difference, right? And kind of makes or breaks someone's ability, you know, career path in that area, I can see that. And I think the international component, I mean, just it must have been such a good learning experience in and of itself, to travel like you gave in that great anecdote, meet with people and break down different barriers that we all have in our own mind and perceptions of the world around us. So this brought you to your experience with, you know private equity, you know venture capital, in the experience that you had and where that led you. What were some of the bigger transactions that you were a part of that provided significant lessons for you?

    Bob Bush
    Right, and so the role that venture can play in capital formation and economic development, the role that PE plays, I've had the good fortune of I moved to Dubai in the early 2000s to to work. I was an advisor to the Prime Minister of the UAE and the ruler of Dubai, to talk about how to make Dubai a viable and sustainable immigrant that was world class, and what kind of services could be offered. And I was a small part of a great team that helps develop the economic development strategy of a wonderful immigrant and a wonderful country, and so using the traditional tools of M A and financial structuring and engineering and and understanding optionality and all these things to bring it into a very practical way, helping to develop a country, develop a region. Fabulous. I was head hunted for the role, and they wanted someone that had this curious admixture of of skills and experiences. So the random guy I meet in Dubai is why I study the Middle East and Africa, because I've done finance. I had the finance I had worked in an entrepreneur work working a couple of FinTech companies before it was called FinTech around capital formation. Because while I was in graduate school, I finally did go to graduate school, I received a fellowship to travel through Africa, and I backpacked through Africa for almost a year, visiting capital cities, and one of the the first place I landed was in Accra, Ghana, because Accra had just launched its its equity exchange and Trying to understand how capital formation could have an impact on the development of Ghana, the country, all these little bits. And I didn't know sort of where these things were going to go, but it's headhunted. It's like, Well, you got the entrepreneurial bit, you got the economic development bit, you know about the region. You got financial training. You seem to be able to get acculturated pretty quickly. Would you come from New York and and work with us here in Dubai? And I remember telling some of my friends, and they were once, one funny story is one of my friends said, you know, Bob, this is money making Manhattan. What are you going to go do in the desert? And I said, you know, I don't know, but they're saying all this crazy stuff. If they can do half of it, this is going to be a very interesting journey, and if it doesn't work out, I can always come back to the US Now, fortunately, not married, no kids, right? I didn't have those tethers, so that's how I ended up moving to Dubai in 2003 and then working on what has to be considered one of the most amazing formations, country formations and formations in the last 100 plus years of what they did in what was a desert into now a top 10 global destination.

    Adam Outland
    No kidding, and to be on the ground floor to experience that. So there's a stereotype Bob that maybe isn't completely pervasive, but that folks who choose private equity and venture and these things that you know, you know, they don't really care about social impact. But this isn't obviously a true stereotype. There's many that are involved, including yourself. And so what you know, you obviously it took a slightly unconventional path to get into the path that you did through philosophy undergrad, so you already were outside the box. But what led you down the path of creating social impact, and how has business helped with that?

    Bob Bush
    Yeah, I think you can sort of see the dots right. So before you can criticize something, you might want to become an expert at it. Everyone's got an opinion, but every opinion is not informed. And so just starting with, what does social impact mean? Right? That's environmental sustainability, that's financial sustainability, right? That's that, you know, those elements. Have some type of capital component, and whether that capital is relational capital or social capital or financial capital, I just see PE or finance is just one of the tools that is necessary to creating impact. And that social impact is financial impact, that social impact is economic impact, that social impact is environmental impact, etc. And so getting some proper training, and then working in a in an immigrant and with other governments to sort of figure out how we can take these traditional access to capital issues, access to market issues, and create business models around them. To me, this is a culmination of all of those other things that I've done to see if I can take what to your point, or skills, or one type of impact shareholder, ROI, and see how you can if you have any kind of facility, right? And you know, one of the, one of the challenges that the world of Silicon Valley has and the world of Wall Street have is, what kinds of questions are you asking? You ask the kind of question about the kind of problem you want to solve, and then the money goes to that. And you can, you know, do we really need flying cars? But if that's the question, you can you can come out a viable business model, there'll be someone that'll help you fund buying cars, absolutely to your point of sort of coming from the outside, whether that's the outside, or having to commute to go to St Louis for school. I've always had the blessing of being able to look at something a little bit more broadly than most, and I apply that natural instinct and these traditional skills to go, can I take this totality of all these other experiences I've used in some perhaps traditional ways, and bring those skills into something by asking different questions and hopefully getting better output and and I remember one of the first images that I ever had that gave me a global perspective, and my father and mother still have it. There was a an African boy who was skeletal. Could not have been more than six or seven years old, eating from a bowl that had a few pieces of rice, and I remember asking them, and I still ask today, why does that have to exist in our world with so much surplus? That's a question that I had as a little boy, and a version of that question I still ask myself, as we now are dealing much more focused on the agriculture and coffee and cocoa and these things. So it may look like it's this sort of security, strange path, journey to get into social impact, but I think in the way we define social impact, right? We're not a charity, commerce. Can we use the commerce over charity? My partner may rest in peace, has has a very viable foundation that has done a lot of foundational work and has given millions of dollars in education and health care. It's a nonprofit. When we started this, he and I said, I we want this to be a social enterprise that needs to use the same metrics of of operational efficiency and capital efficiency as any other business, because that's viability. And we're going to use this model and the things that we've learned. So sir, you are the passion and I'm the purpose, and together, we're going to see if we can ask some good questions to have some impact.

    Adam Outland
    I love it. I remember as a 20 something year old having a an early midlife crisis, very early midlife crisis, where I was thinking about, what's the purpose of life, what's the impact I want to have, you know, and that kind of led me to like, what's the problem I want to solve? And I thought, Wow, there's so many problems to solve, so I should probably be in politics. You know, I'd studied government and politics as a result, and there's a point where I just shut myself in my room for a couple of days to just really write out all the things that were in my brain and to process where, where I wanted to go and, you know, looking back on my studies, you know, studying government, politics at University of Maryland actually led me to this belief that being a politician actually is quite limited in the type of impact that you can have. And that's true and not true, probably, but I came to a personal conclusion that one of the biggest challenges were, are the people? What we started, people are the biggest problem, the greatest asset, right? And I thought to myself, you know, if we could change or impact education, and maybe even in unconventional ways, we could help young people develop a higher EQ, some of the things that are not taught in schools, but how we manage our. Emotions, so that their emotions can't be hijacked by others. You know that they could have more self confidence and self value, that they can reverse engineer their goals? I mean, these things that had helped me have a transformative experience in my life, that maybe that was the best place of impact, and that led to a career of coaching and development and building a business that does the same. And so I hear your story, and I think I agree with you that a big part of life is making sure we're solving the most important problems, and everybody's got a different perspective on that, but we have some brilliant people in this world that are chasing relatively silly problems to solve, or in some cases brilliant people that choose maybe to just be important in this world instead of being of value. You know, what I hear you doing is being of value. And so what are the biggest problems that you think are worth solving?

    Bob Bush
    Wow, man, like, how long is this show? My goodness first. Thank you for that. You know, do your own reflection. And I love how you summed it up. You know, there are people in the world that choose to be more important instead of being more valuable. And it kind of links to the conversation that we had a little bit earlier about understanding valuation mergers and acquisitions, the valuation, the value to value an asset, and understanding the values of an asset, right? And as much as people can be a problem with regards to efficiency and getting things done that the values are have to be about, then it have to be distinguishable from the dollar value. And this is a way that, when I'm sort of approaching a problem, you know, I I'm very mindful of the, you know, what are we measuring? How do we measure it? And is this, is this going to be a values driven metric, or is this a valuation driven metric? And they're both important when you're talking about creating a sustainable model. And so in to get you your question about what kinds of problems to solve, every problem at some point has this tension, are we thinking short term? Are we thinking long term? Or we want to, we want to, you know whether it's health care, there's a cost benefit analysis. Well, if we can get the vaccine out six months earlier, it is going to have X percentage of people that can help, but Y percentage of the people are not going to be helped because we haven't, because there's maybe some additional things that we can do. There's always contraindications, right? There's always risks, there's always the obverse side of that coin. And so to me, it's not so much which problem is more or less important. It is. How do you tackle whatever problem you're you're doing right? Because I don't want your listeners, and I certainly don't think this way to think that. Big problems, major problems. Oh, my problem is, I'm trying to save the world from malaria. There are problems in your neighborhood, there are problems in your school. The question is the mindset around it, so let's not think about it in terms of big problems or little problems. It is whatever problem there is before you bring it, bring an interdisciplinary, bring a diverse, bring a viable bring a perspective, a mindset, recognizing that value and values are not the same thing.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, yeah, well done. I think that's a good it's a great perspective. You know, big problems are important to solve, but at the same time, they don't have to be hairy and audacious and worldwide, in fact, you know, we need a lot more people solving the local problem that adds up to a big solution. And it's really about having a problem solving mindset and how to tackle them.

    Bob Bush
    That's right.

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Innovating in Style, with Anya Cheng – Episode 484 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On April 15, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • AI, Business, CEO, entrepreneur, founder, leadership, Silicon Valley, startup, Stephanie Maas, success, Taiwan, tech, technology
Anya Cheng is the founder and CEO of Taelor, and a former Head of Product for Meta, eBay, Target, and McDonalds, shares the absolutely insanely tenacious path of networking to her first job, getting to Silicon Valley by accepting a job in Minnesota, an eye-opening story about the prejudices that still exist in the startup […]
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  • Anya Cheng is the founder and CEO of Taelor, and a former Head of Product for Meta, eBay, Target, and McDonalds, shares the absolutely insanely tenacious path of networking to her first job, getting to Silicon Valley by accepting a job in Minnesota, an eye-opening story about the prejudices that still exist in the startup world, how to turn office busywork into project management, how to amplify yourself by amplifying others, the value in finding out that your business may actually have a different clientele than you imagined (and why that's OK), and the TRUE way to eat oatmeal in Japan.

    About Anya:

    Anya Cheng is a Taiwanese American technology executive and entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. Before launching her artificial intelligence (AI) startup, Taelor, she helped build Facebook Shop, a social commerce initiative where people can explore and purchase products directly on Meta (formerly Facebook) and Instagram. Before that, she led the go-to-market for Facebook’s Wi-Fi Tech and Innovation team where she improved digital literacy by bringing the Internet to countries without fast connections. As Head of Products, she transformed eBay Classifieds’ emerging business and built Target’s mobile tablet eCommerce app. As McDonald’s Senior Director of eCommerce, she launched their global food delivery apps from scratch.

    Cheng is currently Founder & CEO of Taelor, a AI-powered menswear rental subscription platform busy men to rent styles and for brands/retailers to test products and predict trends. Taelor is an award-winning sustainability startup that has won various competitions hosted by accelerators including Draper University, University of Chicago Polsky Center and SPARK Accel.

    Cheng is also an adjunct lecturer at Northwestern University and 500 Global (formerly 500 Startups) where she teaches software product management and marketing. She is the author of a best-selling career book, a TEDx Talk speaker, and a social media influencer.

    Cheng was named a Girls in Tech 40 Under 40 in 2018 and nominated as a Marketer of the Year by Min Magazine U.S. in 2013. Her work has won 20+ awards including the Webby Award Best for Shopping App, The Communicator Award, and the Rising Star Award of Social Network Category by Mobile Village. She is a volunteer career coach who has inspired thousands of young professionals and currently serves on the volunteer boards for the North America Taiwanese Engineering and Science Association, Taiwan Tech Arena (a non-profit supporting minority founders) and STUF United Fund (a non-profit supporting charitable causes.)

    Cheng received her MBA from the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and a Master of Science degree in Integrated Marketing Communications from Northwestern University. 

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

    LISTEN:

    SUBSCRIBE TO OUR RSS FEED: https://feeds.captivate.fm/the-action-catalyst/

    SUBSCRIBE ELSEWHERE: https://the-action-catalyst.captivate.fm/listen

    __________________________________________________________________________

    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Anya Cheng
    This is Anya from here in Silicon Valley. I'm running AI companies, and so excited to share more. And before that, I led the E commerce team for Meta, eBay and Target.

    Stephanie Maas
    Wow, I wish you had an impressive background.

    Anya Cheng
    haha, just a lot of big tech companies. Facebook shopping, was head of product for eBay's new business in the US and new market in Latin America, Africa, Asia, helped McDonald's to build a full delivery business when Uber eat just started, and helped Target to move its tech office here in Silicon Valley. But my personal entrepreneurship journey just started less than three years ago in the AI spaces.

    Stephanie Maas
    Absolutely. Well, I want to start with, if you don't mind, let's go back just a smidge, because you do have an interesting background. Just walk us through where did this love for tech, all things e, if you will, related. Where did that begin for you?

    Anya Cheng
    Yeah, so maybe I share a little bit. I came to the US in 2007 went to Northwestern University for my master degree in marketing. When I graduated, it happened to be right after Lehman brothers, went bankrupt. So there was no job anywhere. I remembered I was waiting outside of other departments building to, as soon as the interviewer came out of building, I was, hey, this is my resume. I am not even student of these departments, but people say that, you know, Anya, this is dumb, job searching is about networking, you shouldn't be cold calling or ambush people. So I realized that I don't have much connection. But that's not true. I do know professors, no? I was a student, right? So I knock on the door of every departments professor, I say, I'm a student here. This is my resume. Please connect me to someone on LinkedIn who I already researched. This guy talked to you on LinkedIn, so I want to talk to him or her. And then one day there was a professor say, I don't know you, I cannot connect you to anybody, but tomorrow, I have a panel, and you are welcome to come as students and to listen to the panel. By the way, we need more students. Can you bring 10 more people? And so I went. I my English was so bad I didn't understand anything in the in the speech. But after that, I went out and talked to the speaker. Hi, I'm Anya great job. Really good on the speech. I have no clue what she was talking about, and this is my resume. Can I talk to someone in your company running department on digital? And she said, Yes. So I went on job interview. I thought it was perfect, everything they were looking for. A few weeks went by. Nobody contact me. I follow up with a recruiter. The recruiter pick up phone. Asked me, please do not call me anymore, because I was layed off. So the recruiter was layed off from the company. So I said, Okay, you have nothing to do? Do you want to come out for coffee? She said, Okay, why not? So we had a coffee. She told me a lot going on about the company, who is a decision maker, what's the challenge of the company? And she also gave me an idea. Anya, Chicago is the third largest city in the US. Do you want to go to New York? And LA, they are bigger city there for probably more jobs. So I went and I printed out 2,000 alumni from Northwestern University. I started cold calling each of them. I said, I'm coming to New York. I'm a student. Can I meet you for coffee. And with that, I met with a lot of people, but everyone say that I am not hiring. So I call a company in Taiwan, a magazine. I say, Hey, do you want to cover these amazing conferences for stories in New York? They say, yes. I say, I can be a reporter for free. And I call the conference say, Hey, I'm a reporter from Taiwan. Can you give me a press ticket? And I got into a conference, and end up I met with a lot of people, so I called the companies, the magazine company CEO again, I said, I learned a lot from your competitor, and do you want to know what they are working on? She said, Yes. Before I go, I put together a business plan, because I remember I met with a recruiter who was layed off. So I went on interview there. You need someone who knows a little bit marketing, a little bit digital, ideally, not very expensive, just out of college? And I know someone: me! So she asked me, Do you want to be a contractor? Anyway, that's how I got my first job.

    Stephanie Maas
    Absolutely, incredible. What an incredible story. And I've just got to go back and pick out a couple of nuggets of things that I think really speak to your creativity, your insatiable work efforts and desire for the outcome. I mean, you're a masters student at Northwestern, that should be enough to get you a job, but to your point where, you know, we just launched the financial crisis of '07, '08, '09, you take your time. You went face to face asking for researched LinkedIn connection introductions. Do you know that has got to put you in the like 0.01% of the population that uses LinkedIn?

    Anya Cheng
    In fact, what I found most effective during the search was actually one time I was rejected again. I walk out the building. I was in a newsstand, so I saw there were newspapers. And on the newspaper, what do you say? It say publisher name, so and so, if you want advertise, call this number. So I bought all the newspaper, and then I start calling each of them. And somehow, for some reason, I was able to actually get on and talk to New York Times, CEO senior and VP and SVP, of like ESPN, all of those companies.

    Stephanie Maas
    That is incredible. Talk about determination. Holy Hannah. So then, did I hear you say you printed out a list of 2,000 alumni and started calling them all?

    Anya Cheng
    Yeah. And then my English was so bad I didn't know even how to talk to them. So I went to a senior care center near campus, and I practiced my interview with those seniors, because you can… no one will judge your English. You spend time with them. So that's how I did my interview practice. My 93 years old. Her name is Connie. She's from Japan, and I still remember she will put the soy sauce into the oatmeal because she said that's how she eat breakfast back in Japan.

    Stephanie Maas
    So okay, so if you learn nothing else, if you want to, you know, be like a true Japanese oatmeal eater, you're going to want to put soy sauce in that. Got it, check. So your first job is with this magazine. Take me on your journey from there.

    Anya Cheng
    Yeah, so I was there for a few years, and I was mostly focused on digital part of a business. At that time, I didn't know what that means, like product manager. Then I joined Sears, and Sears was looking for someone who helped on deciding where to buy on digitally. So with my magazine background, they feel like, Oh, great. Then you have the media side the background. Now you can be the buyer side the background to see, help us to evaluate where you would you buy media. And while I was doing that quickly, we discovered the most effective way of buying media is using data. And after I doing that for a few, for a year or two, they say, Hey, Anya, when they come to my website, the homepage. It doesn't make sense. Would you like to come and help us to personalize our homepage and websites? And that's how I started my career in product management. And from there, Target hired me. I remember that they they asked me if I want to move to Minnesota. I didn't want to, but I say…

    Stephanie Maas
    No, actually, I have no desire to go to Minnesota. Thank you. Yeah.

    Anya Cheng
    Yeah, thank you. But, yes, my career goal at the time was coming to Silicon Valley. So I was looking for a job in Silicon Valley, but Target came to me and they say, Hey, Target is cooler than Sears and Kmart, so you should come join Target. So I accept the offer. I went to Minnesota. They call me. Anya, I remember you say you don't want to come to Minnesota. I said, Yes, yes, yes. They say, You know your managers role was opening. But now I found a guy, but the guy should be based in San Francisco, and he doesn't want to move to Minnesota. But now, since you have a manager there, you can actually work there. And that's how I actually moved to the Bay Area, by saying yes to something that wasn't relevant to the Bay Area yet at all. And from there, I help Target to build their tech office here in the Bay Area. McDonalds come to me, they say, it's amazing. You launch your tech office here in for Target, you launch your apps. You won 11 a word Best App of the Year by Apple. Can you do the same for our E commerce team? We want to launch something for food delivery globally, and you will be able to do similar things and help us launch office here. And that's what I did. And then eBay came to me. So I joined Ebay. I helped them to focus on product for Africa. And then eventually the Meta came to me. They say, Hey, you have experience in Africa. Do you want to go to places in Africa that does not have internet? So, Nigeria, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda? That was my job. When I joined Meta, helped bring internet to country does not have internet. But then during that time, I realized that social commerce is big game, live streaming and Tiktok shopping, and everyone is talking about social commerce, shopping on social media. And I realized that I did have a lot of E commerce experience from eBay and McDonalds and Target. So they're like, Hey, why don't you come and help just to build Facebook shopping. And that was how I ended up my last job in big corporate was Facebook shopping.

    Stephanie Maas
    Okay, so just for some of our listeners, can you just share with us what were some of the ways that you overcame the challenges of being female, of being Taiwanese, the language barrier, the stereotype barrier, the prejudices that we just know are out there, intentional or unintentional, other than just incredible determination and work, how were some of the ways you were able to come overcome some of those challenges?

    Anya Cheng
    I actually feel a little bit less of that before I became a startup founder, but it's actually a lot more. You can tell a lot more after becoming startup founder. In the startup world today, in the US, there are 30% of us businesses were founded by female. Where female, at least one of the founding members female. In the US, 15% and in the Bay Area, for tech companies, 30%. However, for VC backed company, for VC money, only 1.8% goes to female founded company, 1.8% it's actually down from two years ago, 2.1%. I remember a month ago, I went on a startup competition, and one of the finalists, she was actually really nice and she got her hair up. So she was on the stage with 1000s of people, and then I said, Wow, nice dress, nice hair. And I also love your accessories. This is an amazing ring, like giant diamond ring. And she was like, you know, I'm not married, and I wear this because research shows women who are married, people trust them more because someone trusts them. That's why I wear the ring going on competition. I was totally in shock. And she is white woman who has 15 years of career, very, very successful, even she will have to put on the ring for the competition. So at the beginning, I felt pretty disappointed. And then one day, I thought of, you know, what, if people the world only give me opportunity because I'm a minority, if only minority will give me an opportunity, then I go or go find minority investors. So I start talking to people who are Nigerians and Kenyans and Italians and Spanish and from Mexico and from different part of the world, and Paris and Singapore and Taiwans and Japan. If I can combine every minority investors to be my investor, I have more than enough. I am majority, right? But throughout my career, in corporate, there are some tips to share to people. For example, people tend to assign miscellaneous work to woman, and the best way is not actually saying no, because people hate you, like you're like, hey, Anya, can you order lunch for us tomorrow? Can you host the holiday party for the office? It's kind of hard to say no, but what you can do is you say yes, but then you start putting together a rotation plan, yes, yes. I will help. But then, okay, week one is this person, okay, you will do this. Week two is this person will do this. Week three, you're organizing, but you don't do it yourself. You're organizing. So you plan as project management, or, for example, people hate woman to promote themselves, so always amplify each other. And this when you are in the meetings and you say, okay, great, just Stephanie, I really agree, and I want to echo Stephanie's point of view. You help her, she will help you. And then amplify people don't want to hear you promote yourself, but they will listen to you when you promote others. And also, for example, you can at a certain event that you know they are very few women, and you can organizing it in a way that they will stay. For example, you know that this is the tech competition that usually less women participate. But then before that, you have a company all hands, and in the end, you say, Okay, we have this tech event right after. I encourage everybody to stay so create an environment that's easy for women or minority to be able to participate. And also, you know, guys, they actually hang out with co workers on weekend, while women tend to hang out with people who are nothing to do with their work on weekends, you know the loose ties will help. So next week, find someone who you are not very familiar with. Ask them for lunch. Just a simple step, the loose tie will be able to give you insights and secrets in the office or industry that can help you. So invite someone who you are not very familiar with next week for lunch.

    Stephanie Maas
    Very tactical, super practical. So now let's talk about where you're at today, owning your own business, working with AI, share with us a little bit about that journey.

    Anya Cheng
    Yeah, I'm now running an AI company called Taelor, and it's a company we use AI to pick clothes for men. I actually constantly feel a little bit impostor syndrome. I was the only few female leader in tech that didn't come from engineering background, but lead large technology teams. So I want to look great, and I try some subscription boxes, but you have to buy and I didn't want to own that much stuff. And I don't have fashion sense. I don't know which one looks good. I have to decide, because it's a new item. So I have to think, can I buy this in some other places that will be cheaper? And then I also, if I buy it, I will have to do laundry and ironings, and I don't want to do any of those things, so I try some rental company, but most of them require you to browse through 1000s of items. It was a hard moment that I realized most of fashion companies are designed for people who are into fashion. They're not for people like me. I'm just a lazy person or busy person who need to do good, want to be successful, but does not care about fashion. I need to do good for my job, for my day, for my work. I do not care if I wear red or blue. All I care is that I am successful in the next meeting. I close the deal. I do well in the social events. I did well in my TED Talks. So I start wondering is, are there people like me? Hate shopping, hate laundry, but very purposeful and need to look good? Yes, they are busy men. They have no idea how to look good, but they need to look good. And turns out that we are a menswear business, but to serve them, you need service. You need to pick clothes for them. But before Gen AI, it wasn't feasible. You have to hire someone, spend hours and 1000s of dollars and buy the clothes and someone style you, but now with AI three seconds. AI can pick perfect outfits and become your personal stylist, and that's how we started.

    Stephanie Maas
    That is so cool. Okay, anything that we haven't talked about that you were hoping to address in our time today?

    Anya Cheng
    Yeah, I think it's just for people who want to try something a little bit more like looking good and saving time and feel confident, if you are also a business, who have something that you can partner with us, we would love to see what we can do with each other. For example, we partner with dating sites, we partner with coaches, and we also partner with fitness centers and people losing weight. And you don't need to buy large, medium, small clothes. And you can actually just rent the clothes during the journey, and eventually buy the clothes or look great after you work out and you dress up. So if you are any of those business, feel free to reach out. And I'm at anya@taelor.ai that's a, n, y, a, at, T, A, E, L, O, R, dot, a, i, and we would love to work with you and help to save the environment.

    Stephanie Maas
    Thank you so much for being here with us. What an incredible story and journey. And I really love the way that you're not just taking this passion for business, but you're also combining it with your passion, as you said, for sustainability, doing good in the world. Just thank you so much for being here.

    Anya Cheng
    Thank you so much.

    " target="_blank">

Your Best Life Forward, with Dr. Amy D’Aprix – Episode 483 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On April 1, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • Adam Outland, advisor, author, Business, empathy, entrepreneur, finances, founder, leadership, Lifebridge Strategies, listening, money, planning, retirement, success
Dr. Amy D’Aprix, President and Founder of Lifebridge Strategies, talks about bridging the gap between the stages, changes, and events of life transitions, how life and money go hand in hand, using the right “script” in your interactions, the 3 levels of listening, why empathy is everything, and offers a tease of what’s to come. […]
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  • Dr. Amy D'Aprix, President and Founder of Lifebridge Strategies, talks about bridging the gap between the stages, changes, and events of life transitions, how life and money go hand in hand, using the right “script” in your interactions, the 3 levels of listening, why empathy is everything, and offers a tease of what’s to come.

    About Dr. Amy:

    Amy D’Aprix is an internationally respected expert on lifestyle issues relating to retirement, aging, caregiving, and family dynamics.

    With a Ph.D. in Social Work, “Dr. Amy,” as she is affectionately known, provides down-to-earth, practical, and professionally informed guidance on Life Transitions to individuals, professionals, and organizations.

    A compelling, pragmatic, inspirational speaker and coach, Dr. Amy has addressed thousands of Financial Advisors and their clients across North America. She has consulted for the financial industry and trained advisors for over 20 years, providing sound guidance in navigating Life Transitions to ensure the success of overall life goals and financial plans. 

    This passion is reflected in Trusted Advisor of Choice, a program for financial professionals to better understand their clients’ concerns and LifeMap, an exclusive membership site to help advisor's clients proactively prepare for the life transitions they face.

    Amy is a Certified Professional Consultant on Aging (CPCA) and sits on the Board of Directors of the International Federation on Ageing.

    She has authored the book, From Surviving to Thriving: Transforming Your Caregiving Journey and co-developed an audio coaching session and companion journal, Building the Bonds of Friendship at Midlife and Beyond. She also created the Life Memories Journal and Caring Cards to inspire more meaningful conversations between generations.

    Dr. Amy is regularly sought out for her expertise to be featured on podcasts, radio, TV and in publications.

    Learn more at LifebridgeStrategies.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Adam Outland
    Today's guest is Dr Amy D'Aprix, president and founder of LifeBridge Strategies, a partnership with the Southwestern Family of Companies. An internationally renowned expert on lifestyle issues related to retirement, aging, caregiving and family dynamics, Dr Amy, as she's affectionately known, has provided guidance on life transitions to individuals, professionals and organizations for over 30 years. Amy, it's a pleasure to have you with us. One of the things we love asking our guests about on our podcast is a little bit of their history and their path that helped them arrive where they are today. Most people in their teenage years weren't necessarily dreaming about the profession they made as an adult. In fact, they've gone through a lot of change and transformation in that period. But what did you start off being motivated towards as a young woman, and then how did that evolve?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    I love that question. Adam. I get asked a lot about, how did you get where to where you are? It's a circuitous path, which I think it is for many people in their careers, and certainly for entrepreneurs, my background is social work. So I have a bachelor's, a master's and a PhD in social work. And my original thought was I was just going to work with older adults and their families, you know, to help them have better lives. And I did that. I did some of that. Early on, doors opened, and I walked through those doors, and I didn't even know those doors existed at one point, you know, and then you walk through and you have an opportunity, and you find another opportunity in the future. So where that all led me was after I did work, I actually worked as a home care social worker and worked with families who's had a family member with dementia, did a lot of work in policy, and then I ended up teaching at University for 13 years. I worked at university, both teaching social work graduate students and doing training around North Carolina on issues related both to aging and on the other end, to young families. And I was doing my doctorate at the time, and during that time, I thought, I'm not really cut out to be an academic. I love being in the classroom, but I'm not a researcher. I love reading research, and I really had one of those kind of existential crises about, Do I finish this doctorate, which I'm halfway through and have invested a lot of life energy and money into, or do I just stop it? And I felt like I should finish it, even though I didn't think I was going to use it the way I originally thought. At that point, I got an opportunity to do speaking and to work for a company that offers a designation for business people around aging. That was like an intro to aging class. Certified senior advisor is the designation, and I started teaching for them all over the United States. That program got brought to Canada, and one of the big banks in Canada brought that internal and put all their advisors and their vice president through it, and they got to know me that way because I taught several hours in this three day program, and they asked me if I would come up on a work permit to Canada and help them figure out what to do for their clients on the non financial side of retirement, I did that in 2008 came up for a year and then ended up staying and we developed all sorts of training workshop for the clients around life transitions. And that's really my love. Adam is helping people. How do they get through a life transition? And, you know, I say that's the stages, changes and events we go through in our life, retirement, estate planning, caregiving, we developed one to help women have a better relationship with money, and suddenly I was completely immersed in financial services. What was interesting is I find financial services gave me a platform to do work that I hadn't had an opportunity to do, and it was so exciting getting to have these conversations with people and help them through these transitions that just snowballed.

    Adam Outland
    Well that's an amazing story. What do you feel are some of the skills that you may have developed all the way back when you started doing social work that stuck with you?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Empathy is the first word that comes to my mind, you know, and I say, you know, when we think about empathy, I think we all have some idea of what that. Means, but, you know, but stepping into other people's shoes, I say empathy is really about saying to someone, I see you, I hear you, I understand you, and conveying that. And a lot of people feel empathy, but struggle conveying it. So that became something I took from my early work. I also think a lot of the love of helping families, because I have a real I, you know, we live in family, whatever we call family. It could be family of choice. It could be our biological family, whatever it is. How do we strengthen families as they go through these transitions and help them have a better time? Because in key transitions like caregiving and when the estate, when the estate is settled, these are two key points, families often blow up, and I believe it's mainly preventable if people only have what I call essential conversations and learn how to work together better.

    Adam Outland
    100%. I mean, empathy has been, kind of a fundamental trait in general to be successful, I think in business in any format, right?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Yeah, it really is. And I think we all crave it, right? We want to be seen and heard and understood, and we don't often get it a lot in our day to day lives. So those of us who learn how to do it and business people who get good at it tend to be more successful.

    Adam Outland
    When you started the prior business that you've built up until this point, it was called Life Transitions, correct?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Yes.

    Adam Outland
    There's always inherent risk when you start a company, and so a lot of people risk averse to doing that. What compelled you to start something for yourself?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Yeah, I think I've always been pretty entrepreneurial. In the time I was doing social work, a lot of times I also had a little side gig doing sales and something. This is a very weird combination, right? So I always felt a little who am I? Am I the social worker or the sales person for decades, probably at least for the first couple decades of my career, I felt a little out of step with people who just sort of seemed to know this was his Lear path, and they got a job. And so I, when I was working for the company that offered the designation CSA, I started to move out on my own, and I was an independent and a solo preneur at that point. So from the time I became a solopreneur, I had no net, right? Those of us who do these things often don't have been met. And I think you have to have a certain makeup to do this, you know, I if you look at most people, as you said, Adam, are pretty risk aversive. They want the security. And when we talk about being an entrepreneur, we often don't have external security. So we have to find that somewhere in ourselves that we're okay. And I think I just always felt that if everything fell apart, I could always go get a job, but that I wasn't really cut out at it. And I I want to tell you a funny story, because I'm now at an age a lot of my friends are starting to retire and from jobs with pensions, you know. And those of us who are entrepreneurs don't usually have a pension, so one of my friends and I will sometimes say, why didn't we just take a job and stick with it for 30 years, like other people do? But that's not if you're an entrepreneur, it's not in your makeup. You know, one of the things I think I would have done if I had a job was I might have met a guidance counselor, like my dad. And what I joke is, I would have met a guidance counselor, but then I would have thought I could run the department, so I would have then gone and become the head of the department. Then I would have thought that there are a lot of things in this school that need fixing. And next thing you know, I would have tried to move on. So, you know, you have to know who you are as an entrepreneur. So I think I took the risk just because inherently I felt secure enough there would always be a Plan B I could operate with Plan B, and I kind of kept that in the background. And there were times it was really scary. I've gone through those times.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah. Give our audience context for this business in particular, LifeBridge Strategies, that partnership with Southwestern Family of Companies, what is the problem that you're specifically addressing?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Well, so as I was doing the speaking engagements for clients. What I realized was the advisors needed help in having conversations about these topics, so I developed some workshops for the advisors that were quite successful, but what they would say to me after the workshop is okay, so how do I say that to my client? And I realized they needed coaching around the conversations and how to do it. So I started our first product, which is trusted advisor of choice. And trusted advisor of choice is for advisors to we call it a practice Elevation Program instead of a training program, because it's it's really about working with advisors who want to take their practice to the next level. It's framed around life transitions, so again, the stages changes and events that people go through. And it's a modularized program with videos on the topics such as retirement, estate planning, caregiving, how to improve your practice with women, how to work with old. Adults, referrals, those kind of things. And in each module, besides the videos, we have some client facing tools. We have some advisor resources. And each mod for each module, there is coaching, available, group coaching, and Adam, we launched that during the pandemic. And I was very fortunate, because initially, the pushback I got was, advisors are not going to want to do training online. They had no other choice of ways to do it, and so we launched trusted advisor choice to fill the gap to meet the need of, how do you deepen your relationships with clients by better understanding their life and tying life and money together. And one of the things I say is that life and money go hand in hand. And what we teach in that program for the advisors is how to go where the client is, which is on the practical, emotional and family aspects of their life, express empathy. And then segue back to the business conversation. It's that we've actually trademarked this process now because it's been so successful, and it's called Lyra, and it's about going to the client, but coming back. And what's great about it is then the advisor always feels in control of the conversation, because they know they can segue back and forth between the life conversation and the money conversation, which is key. So that was the big need we were filling with that, which was, you know, how do you deepen your relationships with clients, by understanding them better, expressing empathy better, and tying that to the business. From that, we developed life map, and that's for clients, but the only place they can get it is from their advisor, Adam. What that is, are really robust resources for clients on these transitions. And again, it's about strengthening the advisor client relationship, because what we found with trusted advisor of choice is advisors would say, Great, I'm comfortable having these conversations, and now clients are sharing things about their life, and I don't have any resources for them on the life side. I only have resources on the financial side, and so it's like opening a wound without a bandage. So we created this program that has, again, robust resources for clients from professionals who are top in their fields, and the only way they can get it is from the advisor. So it again deepens that relationship.

    Adam Outland
    You know, I hear the empathy come up, but it was really in the questions that you guide them to ask or not ask, curiosity and asking great questions. Is there a specific common question that you either guide in your trainings advisors to ask or not ask, that come to mind right now, just as an example?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Sure, well, and I've got to speak to the curiosity, because that is actually one of the things I say, is that you have to go into these conversations with curiosity, and you have to listen at what I call level three, which is listening for what's not being said. So, you know, level one is listening to reply, and we think, we don't do it. We all do it, and it's actually an occupational hazard, because we want to add value. So we're listening to add value. And then level two is listening to the content, which obviously is better. You know, you have to be present do all that. But level three is about going somewhere beyond that, and it's about listening to what's not being said, to what what the person feels about what they're sharing with you. And you know, I often share a story around this that I sat in on an advisors training who was a really good advisor, and she knew this client really well. And the client was a 72 year old woman retired, didn't bring her husband. She was a physician, but the advisor knew the client, and they had nice conversations. We went through a portfolio review, she went through some planning, and then at the end, right as the advisor is kind of wrapping up the meeting, and the client says, I'm going to Italy to see my mother. And the advisor responds at level two and says, which, again, is to the content. And says, Great, have a wonderful time. Let's connect. When you get back, and I'm thinking to myself, this client 72 her mother has to be quite old. And the client did not look enthused. She looked upset, you know, and so I said to the client, How's your mom doing? And she said, she's not doing well. She has dementia. I'm not sure she'll recognize me, and I'm guessing this may be the last time I see her. And I said, I am so sorry. I can't imagine how hard this trip is. She said, it's very, very hard. So in that moment, I made the connection that deepen, not the advisor, because they didn't switch to level three. She had left the room and wanted to move things on, so that and the curiosity factor helps you get to where you are. And then you said, Is there specific questions? This is one I. Have advisors. Ask advisors often say, Tell me about your family. Instead, I ask them to say, tell me about the people that you want to take care of. When we look at financial planning or estate planning, now you may say, Well, what's the difference? Well, the difference is they may have people who are not in their immediate family who they're taking care of that you'll never know about unless you say something. They may have a niece. They may have somebody outside the family. And what you want to do by asking these kind of questions is create context. The person knows exactly what you're looking for when you ask a question like that, tell me about your family is you know, what do you want to know about? So asking questions with context is a key thing to do. And with advisors, I try to get them instead of saying, So, what are you going to do in your retirement, asking specific things like, So, what are the three most important things to you that you're going to do in your retirement? And I had one advisor tell me he shifted to that question, and one of his clients said, wow, I've not thought about that. I've got two things I've been thinking about, we're going to travel, and this client was a big golfer, I'm going to golf, but when you ask me about the third, I realize that my wife and I need to have different conversations. Those two things aren't going to be enough for me to do. And they ended up getting to this conversation about how so many people struggle in retirement because they don't have purpose. And the client came back and said that question for him was a game changer. So it seems like such a little thing, but specificity in questions and creating contexts makes a huge difference.

    Adam Outland
    Also not telling people that you can imagine things that they're going through, but instead telling them that you can't imagine things they're going through. You know, people aren't feeling good that you're sitting with, but you want to relate and say, Oh man, I can imagine that must be really hard, when maybe what they prefer to hear, and what's probably reality, is to say, I can't imagine, I cannot imagine how tough that must be.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    And you know, one of my favorite takeaways on empathy is you can say to somebody, if they cut you off guard, I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this. And, you know, I don't even know what to say right now, except I'm so sorry that is a great thing to say instead of trying to say something profound. Or, you know, I think that again, if we think about being present and wanting to convey to somebody that you see and hear them, and it's hard when we get hit in a going to be business or personal with something pretty significant somebody's going through. It's a skill that we all need to practice. You know, I always joke. Some people think, of course, I must be great in empathy, because I teach it. And I used to joke when my daughter was a teenager, don't ask my daughter, she had a different perspective on that.

    Adam Outland
    But in, you know, in reality, that's, it's, it's really important training. And I often, you know, as a consultant with that training and background that I have, have often thought that people often misconstrue consultancy or sales as being very scripted. And I often reflect on the fact that it's actually what we're all very scripted. I mean, we all have our response mechanisms to introductions. It's Hi, how are you? I'm good. How are you? It's just what we say, and you don't even realize it. Do you go to a different country? Like if you go to Germany and you ask someone walking down the street, Hi, how are you doing? It's so weird to ask that question to a German that they'll look at you and they'll tell you exactly how they're doing and it's not well. So I always think that, you know, good, effective sales training and script building helps us build more effective language to truly be impactful in life, versus we grew up with, which is most likely not the best script.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Yeah, I agree with you on that. You know, very few of us grew up in homes where we where we heard warm, empathic responses to things, and it wasn't because they weren't loving people. It was just a different time, right? And a different approach to parenting.

    Adam Outland
    That's right, yeah, that's such a good point. What's the vision where you want to take Lifebridge into the future, and what's your hope in terms of impact?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    I always want to have a huge impact. So I'll start with that. I'm here in at this time, in the world, at this time, to do what I can to make people's lives easier and to help people have better quality of lives and more peace of mind. So that's that's the impetus for what drives everything I do. We have two offerings right now, the trusted advisor, choice for the advisors, life map for the client. And the goal there, again, is to help clients, really all of it is to help clients have better quality of life as they go through transitions. So our goal is to work with advisors all over North America and beyond to help them have again practices that are, you know, the other word I like to use is more fun. It's more fun to do business this way than it is to not really know your clients. So help advisors have more effective businesses and help their clients get through life more easily. That's our vision. We want. Take it, you know, as big as we can to do that, and then behind that, Adam, we have another offering that I'll just tease, which is called Essential conversations. And I'm excited to really get life map and trusted advisor out there, so I can start getting essential conversations out to the world.

    Adam Outland
    I love that. But in any part of the population where you can focus on, you know, just instilling curiosity at a different level is helping everyone. Because we could all benefit from being better students and learning how to listen first and ask better questions instead of coming in. We have a kind of a crude expression that you be in their industry often shows up and throws up all over their thinking they have all the things and the magic sauce that'll help. But while we are driven by adding value, usually greatest value can add is understanding.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    And I think it all comes down to authenticity, right? If we can just bring our authentic selves in. And when we're nervous, we're not as good at it, and when we're, you know, feeling pressure in our businesses, it can be sometimes hard to do that, but that authenticity and true caring for those people that we're interacting with that comes through and people want to work with people who care about them.

    Adam Outland
    100%. One of the kind of lightning round questions I always love asking; pieces of technology, is there an app or something that you found useful or constructive in your practice, business with advisors?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Well, I have to tell you the thing I'm I've been drawn to AI, and I'm not using it a lot, but I'm using quad or cloud, depending on how you say it. And I'll tell you how I use it, because for me, this is making a huge difference in speed of getting things done, but also in creating more depth. So I act like Claude is my graduate assistant, and so I ask Claude questions that come back with, you know? So I'll give you an example. We create these client facing tools that are around life issues. So now, after we do that, I go to Claude and ask a question about that topic area and see what comes out from AI that we might have missed. And what we've done on a couple of the tools is is really deepen and improve them based on those responses. And so sometimes I use Claude to generate an I, you know, as I'm thinking about an idea and thinking, Where should I take that? And sometimes I use it, and on the other end to say, how did we do but it is like having a graduate assistant in who does this in three seconds. So I'm only using AI like, a teeny little bit, but I'm amazed how much it's shifting how I do my work in a really positive way.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, but it's pretty amazing how it's going.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    It IS amazing. And I know we have lots of concerns about where it's going, but I'm pretty excited about what it's doing for me and my business.

    Adam Outland
    I love that. And what's something that you've learned here in the last couple of years through your work directly with the advisors or the client that you didn't know before. Like, what's I mean, we're always learning, but is there something that's that light bulb moment that over the last few years that's really come to you through these conversations and discussions that you that you have so often?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    I think that one of the things that surprised me with the advisors, that I learned was how many of them struggled to make that connection, because they were afraid of being intrusive in clients lives, and so that was an interesting thing that we had to work through about, you know, because curiosity, you know, you think about, They're sitting with someone. They're talking about deep life issues. It's like, how far can I take that conversation before I'm being intrusive? And so I was surprised by that. That was something that was kind of a surprise. And also with the advisors, how open they were to adding the things that I talk about into their practice. You know, the people I work with want those relationships with clients, because you do better work. And I think on the client side, you know, a lot of the people I work with are financially well off because they've got financial advisors. And one of the takeaways is that we all, we all are struggling with the same things. It doesn't matter what are income level you know, if I ever thought money solved problems, I let that belief go when I started working with ultra high net worth clients. You know, more money, more problems, sometimes with your if you haven't done the work about yourself and your family and you're not grounded. So those things that we do to ground ourselves, to learn, to grow, the things we do to cement things in our families, they matter and matter no matter what income level you're at.

    Adam Outland
    There's an organization you might be familiar with called Tiger, 21 people who come together peer to peer, advisory to some degree, where they have a certain amount of liquid well. Wealth that presents, within itself its own challenge. And, you know, some people listening to this might be a challenge I'd like to have, right, but you know, in conversations with a couple of their chapter leaders, what, what I've found is that, yeah, one of the big challenges they face because of wealth is the is the secession planning component. Oh, yes, you know, giving your wealth to your child. If you don't do it and you have it, it can screw up the relationship. And if you do do it and you have it, then it can screw up the teenager or whoever is about to have it, if you don't construct it in the right way. And there's very personal things, even as a consultant, working with business leaders of companies, when you come to the business being passed the next generation, yes, that they're, they're incredibly challenged by and it's often not the structure as much as it is the emotional implications of the relationships itself.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Everything you said, I concur with. I get to work with business owners sometimes. And you know, it's, it's like having a baby that you're, you're thinking, how do I, how do I pop past this baby to someone else, or or, and one of the issue with business owners that surprised me was they often give absolutely no thought to this, and they say, I'm just going to work forever. And the problem with that is, at some point they're not going to be able to work in that business. Something hits them now or because they pass on, and they have to, you know, and a lot of people haven't done very good planning. And I think that's another takeaway I had, is I've been working with or on behalf of older adults and their families for about 40 years now. And I think one of my big surprises is, or big takeaways is, people don't do very good life planning for that last third of their life. We do it well for earlier than the last third. So that's one of my real passions, is helping people do that planning so they have choice, control and independence and have the best quality of life possible. So that was a huge thing when I started working. You know, again, doesn't matter what income level you're at. People often don't think about those things.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, being intentional with your life at every stage.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Yes, at every stage. And we're, you know, we've done a better job early, and then we sort of get people say, Oh, I'm going to retire. And they sort of see that as one long stage. But it's actually many chapters within that to continue to have passion about your life forever. In order to do that, we have to be intentional.

    Adam Outland
    Well, you've just made me decide to alter the final question. I always end with asking our guests to give what advice they might give to their 20 year old self. But I mentioned a different question. Okay, what advice would you like your 100 year old self to be able to tell you now?

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    Oh, I love that. That's a great question. When I think about that, I think about what I would hope because I'm 62 so it's almost 40 years to continue to plan your life, to continue to stay engaged and continue to make sure you have purpose and connection for the next 40 years, because that's what's going to get you through.

    Adam Outland
    Well said. Thank you so much for giving us your time, Dr. Amy.

    Dr. Amy D'Aprix
    I appreciate it. Thank you.

    " target="_blank">

Beyond Basketball: Championship Lessons for Success, with Tyler Summitt – Episode 482 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On March 25, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • basketball, Business, coaching, decision making, leadership, Pat Summitt, speaker, Stephanie Maas, success, team building, teams, winning
Tyler Summitt, son of legendary coach Pat Summitt, as well as the Co-Founder of Pat Summitt Leadership Group, shares the group’s mission, the story of Pat’s humble beginnings, the art of mastering full executive decision making in 90 second or less, the “secret sauce” to Pat’s leadership, what she definitely didn’t understand about, but learned […]
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  • Tyler Summitt, son of legendary coach Pat Summitt, as well as the Co-Founder of Pat Summitt Leadership Group, shares the group’s mission, the story of Pat’s humble beginnings, the art of mastering full executive decision making in 90 second or less, the 'secret sauce' to Pat’s leadership, what she definitely didn’t understand about, but learned from, a 5-year-old’s soccer game, how to visualize winning in a (very, very) highly detailed way, the key component that gets you to over a 90% success rate, and the answer to the mystery of just who is “Trish”?

    About Tyler:

    Tyler Summitt is the son of University of Tennessee women's coach Pat Summitt, the winningest coach in college basketball history at the time of her retirement.   Since her passing in 2016, Tyler now plays instrumental roles in continuing her work and legacy through the Pat Summitt Foundation and efforts to fight Alzheimer’s disease, as well as the Pat Summitt Leadership Group.

    About Pat Summitt Leadership Group:

    The Pat Summitt Leadership Group is dedicated to helping others through Pat’s transformative leadership philosophy, The Definite Dozen. The group strives to empower leaders across various fields to cultivate their unique strengths, foster collaboration, and drive positive change within their organizations and communities.  The approach is rooted in Pat’s twelve Definite Dozen principles for success, emphasizing the importance of accountability, communication, and continuous personal growth. Whether you're a seasoned executive, emerging leader, or aspiring entrepreneur, this program provides the guidance and support needed to unlock your leadership potential to lead with purpose, passion, and resilience.

    Learn more at PatSummittLeadershipGroup.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    SUBSCRIBE TO OUR RSS FEED: https://feeds.captivate.fm/the-action-catalyst/

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Stephanie Maas
    Hey, Tyler, how are you?

    Tyler Summitt
    Good, how you doing?

    Stephanie Maas
    I'm good. It's super nice to meet you.

    Tyler Summitt
    Absolutely likewise. Thanks for having me on.

    Stephanie Maas
    So I'm not from Tennessee. I don't know anything about basketball. I know your mom is ridiculously respected. I know enough to know that.

    Tyler Summitt
    You know what's awesome. I love that. You know why I love that? Because I love talking to people that have not heard of mom. Because a lot of times, if people have heard of Mom, it's like, oh yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that story. But when we do things for the past summit foundation or the past summit leadership group, and people don't hear about mom, a lot of times, they their their life is just changed in a way where, if they'd heard about mom over time, it's like, okay, but when somebody gets smacked in the face with some Pat Summit it's pretty cool. What happens? Heck, we just, we just got a testimonial. I'm it's on my desk right now. I didn't go and start like this. How cool is this? This is a testimonial for the past summit leadership group and the online program. It's this program. It's like an eight hour course on the definite dozen. And my mom, you get certified in my mom's definite dozen, her 12 principles for success. This is from the financial industry. This is an IT. Listen to this testimonial, testimony says I was not from Tennessee. I didn't really follow sports. Okay, sound familiar? I was a little skeptical when this past summit online leadership program was introduced, thinking, How is a basketball coach going to teach me an IT leader? I wasn't sure I would connect with her, but I was sorely mistaken. I found that the way she loved and invested in her people was exactly how I felt a leader should be, and I found myself wanting to be more like her and to see the impact that she had on her people, even decades after they're gone from Tennessee, basketball cemented for me that how you treat people and lead people for the good or the bad will follow them for the rest of their lives. It makes me strive every, every day, to be the type of leader that impacts my team in a positive way, and I am more careful in the choices I make daily. There you go.

    Stephanie Maas
    Awesome. Okay. With that being said, I want you to start from scratch, start at the beginning.

    Tyler Summitt
    Yeah, absolutely. My mom was just a winner. I don't know how to put it. She was a winner. And it wasn't just on the court, it was off the court. I mean, she literally retired as the winningest coach in the industry, and so retire with more wins than anybody, men or women. She was labeled the coach of the century. That one always gets me still like Coach of the century, like for whoever's listening to this, take your title and put of the century out of it. Maybe you're the salesperson. What if you're the salesperson of the century? You know? Maybe you're the stay at home. Mom, what if you're a stay at home? Mom, of the century. Is that not crazy? I mean, of the century. And she got the Presidential Medal of Freedom, highest civilian honor that you can possibly get. She was top 50 female leaders in the country, like leader, not sports. For those of you that aren't sports people, this ain't about sports. It's about life, you know, and my mom got every accolade you can imagine, gave keynotes, did so much for women's sports, yes, but women in general, and honestly, leadership and so it really, really proud of her. It started when she was on a dairy farm. You know, she was so shy, like, if you had met my mom back then, I'm told that you would not think this was gonna be somebody that went on to become a celebrity. You know, one story that she liked to tell about how shy she was is when she was playing in the Olympics, and so my mom is the head coach at Tennessee, but playing in the Olympics, there's no WNBA, there's no professional women's professional basketball. They'd take college players and a head coach to go play in the Olympics for the 1976 How crazy is that my mom ended up becoming the first American to win an Olympic medal as both a player and a coach. And so she's playing in the Olympics. And again, this is going to tell you who my mom was back in the day, first game with her teammates, first team with her coaches, and her dad comes to watch. He was a six foot five tobacco farmer. I mean, this guy is scary. This guy is, like, legit, and he's in the first. Front row, and he's up there and he's yelling, rebound. Trish. Trish, rebound. My mom's full name is Patricia, and her family called her Trish, not Pat. Nobody knows that my mom's name, I mean, they all think this is Pat. You know, they use Pat. So it's like, Who's this guy yelling at? So my mom's playing hard, but she said one of her teammates that game had like 30 rebounds. For those who don't know basketball, 30 rebounds, it's crazy. And so my mom said this teammate of hers had like 30 rebounds. That teammates name was Trish Roberts. Trish Roberts thought this scary six foot five tobacco farmer was gonna kill her if she didn't rebound. Right? I tell that story because it shows who my mom was, this shy farm girl, to be honest with you, that was too shy to correct people at age 18, and she was too shy to do that, and now we all know her as Pat Summitt, and I think that's just a message to anybody listening. I don't know what you're going through in life, but I know that my mom's story can help you, because she has gone through so many things that we're going to talk about, you know, on this podcast, that it just shows you if you can do things the right way, if you can make winning an attitude, if you can be it's a mindset you can control. It's in your control. It's just a testament to what you can accomplish in life. My mom went on to do all those things, but she had to go through the wall of being shy. She had to attack that head on. And so that gives you a kind of like, where did she come from, and then who did she become, and how did she do it? So maybe that was a good place to start.

    Stephanie Maas
    Fantastic place to start. Okay, so incredible icon. What's this Pat Summit Leadership Group, PSLG?

    Tyler Summitt
    Yeah, that's a great question. It is an organization that I co founded so that people did not miss out on knowing who my mom was, but more importantly, on learning from her and helping themselves in their own life. You know, I think there's certain figures that that can just impact people. They're almost like, you know, you hear their story and you see what they've done, it's like, oh my gosh, you just believe and my mom was just one of those people. And so, you know, as an only child, I wanted to make sure people continued to be successful, and it's happening. Listen, I read you that testimonial from the financial industry. I mean, we've got entertainment industry. Dollywood's gone through, finance industry, restaurant groups, construction companies, healthcare, stay at home, parents, you name it. Every industry is going through the trainings and listening to keynotes and going through in person workshops and going through online programs and all the above. We're reading books. My mom is still impacting people right now, today, we're all over the place, and we're helping people in every industry. So it's, it's so cool. What's happening? It's my mom's definite dozen the book she wrote back in the 90s is 12 principles for success. Everything's based off of that, and that's what she attributes her success to. And it's applying that to, okay, and your company. How does that apply? And again, it's changing lives for the better. And as you can imagine, as the only child, I mean, I just enjoy, I thoroughly enjoy seeing people improve through my mom's legacy.

    Stephanie Maas
    Ok, so drill down with me. So you're saying, hey, it's these 12 principles. Where did these come from? What are the real life applications, what are some of the takeaways that you have seen be so meaningful and impactful for folks?

    Tyler Summitt
    Absolutely. So my mom had a recipe for success. It's that definite dozen. Now, when she wrote it, actually sat down and wrote the book, she had already won three national championships. She ended up winning five more. And so the definite doesn't. It's not like my mom reinvented the wheel for leadership. You know? It's things like communication, respect, teamwork, hard work, things like that. And so there's these skills, though, that it seems like we're losing in today's day and age, right? Because of cell phones, because all the noise and emails and the news and all this stuff the past. Summit leadership group uses a variety of different methods, in person, training online, to come and say, Okay, here's the right way to do things. Here's how you can treat people the right way. Here's how you win in life with people. So again, what are the real life applications? Well, the first thing that's really taken off is when you go through our online programs, and we have multiple we have one that's just overall leadership definite does, and we have one that's a power of teen. We have one that's specific for women's leadership. So no matter who you are, what industry you're in, there's one for you. And what we've seen is, is when people go through that and they spread it out over six months or a year, habits are formed, right? And it's great to say, here are my goals, but let me just watch you for a day, and I'll tell you who you are. Let me watch your habits. Let me watch what you do do. I don't need you to tell me about you know what you plan to do and what you're thinking about, and what you tweeted you were going to do, and what you told your friend you were going to do, and what your New Year's resolution. I don't know any of that. I need to see what you do with your habits, and then I'll tell you who you are and what you're going to accomplish, and if you're going to accomplish the goals or not. And so that's what the online program does. Our online programs, you can go the website and look them all up. It'll take you through over time, self paced, bite sized learning, and you learn, okay, this is how I build habits, and so great place to start is right there, with the website going checking out those online programs.

    Stephanie Maas
    So you said something super keen, and we've talked a lot about this in the podcast, is there is, without a doubt, there's so much conversation and content around developing leadership skills and developing leaders. And I think this is part of what makes your mom's story so unique. She was on that cutting edge where a lot of leadership was really management. They didn't call people leaders. So I would imagine just simply the fact that she approached what she did and how she did what she did from a leadership mentality really made her stand out, because even coaches, they were managers back in the day, that's how you led, is through managing people, telling them what to do. It was very different. Well, then we had this tremendous growth of folks like your mom, that really took management and transitioned it into true leadership. It's inspiring. It's the Stephen Covey's the Pat Summit. It is really looking at things and learning different what to me, is so interesting. It's like over the last several years that has fallen to the wayside, because exactly what you said, the distractions of technology and we are really seeing this thirst and desire and avoid in this next generation of leadership that truly they know the term, they know how to describe leadership, but they haven't experienced it, and they certainly don't know how to implement it. What I'm hearing from you is this is an opportunity in an organization that's committed to bringing that back and showing folks this is how you develop, because leadership, it's this absolute science, and I think that's what I'm hearing from you, is your mom figured that out and is able to translate that to the masses.

    Tyler Summitt
    No, you couldn't be more right. I mean, we every day, and that's why I love the past and leadership, we attack, we absolutely attack the things that technology is trying to do to us, that negative news is trying to do, that all the noise is trying to bring on us that, you know, everybody's trying to play the game. Look at me. Look at me. Look at your competing and keeping up with the Joneses. And it's just like, ah, there's so much noise we all know. Honestly, I think we all know what we need to do. But are you doing it? You know, are you doing it for the people around you? And yes, people we're seeing with, with companies that bring us in and like, hey, we need help on loyalty and retention. And it's like, okay, well, they're not leaving your company. They're leaving your leaders. They're not being led. They're not being invested in. They're not improving. They don't see a future here. And mom was so magical at this. Strategy is a word that we throw around a lot. Let's do a SWOT analysis, and let's do all this complicated stuff. Hold on a second. Let's boil strategy down. Because my mom was magical at this. She was she was a master at this. She had to do this over and over again. In games, she'd have 90 seconds. In a basketball game, there's a time out. It lasts 90 seconds, Max, some of them 30 seconds. And she'd have to bring everybody in. She'd have to listen to assistant coaches real quick, her staff, her C suite, then she'd have to go into a huddle again. All this in 90 seconds, get everybody organized. Say, Okay, here's what we're going to do, here's how we're going to do it, and here's why we're going to do it. Here's why it's going to work. It made them believe in it. And then she'd say, Okay, now let's go. And then she'd have to do it again. She have to do it and again. In the game. And then in her career, you gotta think, and a college team, you lose 25% of your seniors, they leave. So you 25% of your team every year, and they're like your leaders. You're not losing front line. So she's losing 25% every year and bringing in 25% which are rookies, fresh out of high school. So every year she had to go through strategy, what, how and why. And I think we're talking about leadership. I think we're losing sight of making sure everybody has the why, and we've, you know, we've heard TED Talks and we've read it, but I don't know your why. But do you do it like I'm challenging the people listen to this? Do you do that in every area of life. Do you do it in your faith? I don't care what your faith is. Mom is a Christian, I'm a Christian, but whatever that is for you. Do you have that like you have a strategy for your faith? We all have mission statements at work. Do you have a position statement for your life? What about your family? You have kids? Your kids know why they're here. Do they know how to be successful? They know what they're trying to do. What about your significant other. Do you know what you're trying to accomplish? Do you know why you have that relationship? Do you have a joint statement where it's like, this is what we're trying to do? My mom did it over and over and over again. It was so simple, but everybody bought in because she was a leader. And here's the secret sauce, she would help them with the what, the how and the why. Okay, before a season even. Started the what, let's start with the what. She would say, okay, the what was usually a national championship. And she got eight of them, which is a lot. So she would take them through sometimes different things before a season, before a game even started, she always say, okay, what are we trying to accomplish? National Championship? All right, let's go through the National Championship celebration. They haven't even played a game yet, and she says, We're going to celebrate this year's national championship that they haven't won yet. And she goes, Okay, we're all going to walk in a line like this. All right. Now you're going to sit in this order. But okay, good. The band is on the left. Imagine them there. The all the fans are on the right. Okay, now, here's what, here's the speech. I'll talk first, you're captain. You talk second, the banner is going up right here. Hey, tomorrow, does everybody have a suit and a dress? We're going to the White House to meet the President tomorrow, because we won the national championship. She's literally doing daily affirmations. I mean, this is in the 80s and 90s, so before our time, she's literally taking them through daily affirmations. It's like it already happened. It's like they already won in April, but it's August. And then, I mean, they're, they're months and months and months and months from even that game. They don't even know if they're gonna make it to that game. Everybody knew the what now let's go the hat. Okay, she would have her players lay down on the court and visualize what they were gonna do in the game the next day. And listen, that was a lot for a coach to do that, because you only got an hour for tournament practices, which is not a lot for a practice. You only got an hour. She would seemingly waste practice time to have them lay on the court, close their eyes and visualize but it worked, and they beat the competition, and they were successful. Do you do that in your life? Are you doing that with your team? Are you doing that with your family? Are you doing that with your peers? Do you wake up and have a horny routine? That's what we're trying to help people do before you look at the phone and you look at the noise and you look at all this stuff, you've got to take control of your life. You've got to take control of your team before we go through the emails and you've got to take control and say, This is what we're doing, how we're doing let's go to the why, because it's the most important point. Everybody knows that. But listen to what my mom did. My mom would have one on one meetings with everybody in the organization, everybody, and it took some time, and everybody's like, I don't have time, trust me, you have time for this. You have time to have one on one meetings with the people around you. If you don't have time for that, then come on, turn off the TV, turn off the emails, turn off the shows, whatever you're doing, get off of Twitter and all the social media and have a real conversation with somebody and say, Okay, why are you doing this? Why are you at our company? What's the goal? What do you want? Why are you here? Like, why? Like, tell me your why. And my mom would do that with each player. She would know that player number one wanted to go on and play professionally. She want to go overseas. She want to travel the world playing basketball. She'd know that player number two just wanted to make your family proud. That's it. She didn't want to go on and play pro. She wanted to do a career, something else. And so what if my mom tried to do the same speech to both of them? What if my mom tried to motivate them the same way? What if my mom just came in like a cookie cutter and like some managers, and said, All right, here's what we got to do. Go and that's it. No, my mom would she still do the what and the how? But then she go to player one, she said, Hey, she would she whisper. She said, Hey, there's going to be pro scouts at that game tomorrow. You've got this. You've got this. Your dreams are coming. She go to player number two, and she'd say, hey, hey, the game's on national TV tomorrow, your family's going to be so proud of you. You've earned this. It was magical that just that small little 10 seconds to each individual reinforcing their why and their why fit under the company. Why the business? Why the organizations? Why, if we win as a team, everybody else accomplishes their goals and really caring about people. Mom loved the quote, people do not care about how much you know until they know how much you care. My mom cared. I mean, she cared about people so much, and so I think that's a real life example of something my mom did over and over and over every year.

    Stephanie Maas
    I don't want to oversimplify this. I think you just hit something that is so clutch. People know their what, and it's not hard for them to figure out what their what is. They sometimes think they know their why, but it's not until they really share it with somebody else and drill down into the details. Does it really come to life? Which, when it comes to life, it becomes meaningful, but that middle piece of the how that is where I think so many folks don't know, and what I'm really hearing is this mission this group is to bridge that gap. You think you know what you want, you think you know why. And we're going to expand on all that. But most importantly, let me show you how.

    Tyler Summitt
    Absolutely. And I think what comes into mind when you say the how is, are you willing to sit there and do all the, you know, analyzing, all the stuff you want to do, but then can you simplify it? And can you say, Okay, here's what I'm going to do every single day. Mom had certain things she did every single day, and she was just consistent with that. She was always trying to improve those areas. She was trying, okay, let me, let me improve this one a little bit, let me improve this and all. But there were certain things that she did where she knew if I do these things, I might not win every game. Right? My mom didn't win every game, but she was a winner. And over time, if you're willing to do that, you're willing to do the things that other people aren't willing to do, you're eventually going to get things that other people aren't willing to get. I mean, our world's competitive. I'm just being honest. Really, it doesn't matter about other people, you know, they're they're competitive. It matters about yourself. Are you competing? They'd be the best person that you can be? Are you the best version of yourself? And that, again, is what mom did so well, and she knew how to do it, and then she helped other people know how to do it. You know, it's crazy, too. You talk, you talk about teen, you know, there's a there's research on this, and I've heard it various different ways, but if you just have an idea, just like I kind of want to do something you actually have a small chance of accomplishing. It's like 10% like, where it's just, I got an idea like this, you know, I could do this. And that's not bad. Like, one in 10 shot, if I just think it's something, you know, okay, if you create a SMART goal, and we all have heard that ad, you know, specific, measurable, make sure it's time out. If you do that, okay, it goes up. If you set a how, like, how you're going to do it, the process, it actually goes over 50% so that's what gets you over 50% but if you set up weekly accountability meetings with other people and say, hey, check in on me on this, hold me accountable to this. And you actually attend those meetings and they're holding you accountable, you have over a 90% success rate. So you have the what you know your why you got the how that got you over the hump. Make sure there's other people around you, you know. Show me the cry, people you surround yourself with, yada yada yada, and we all know that. But do you do it? Do your friends know what you want to accomplish? Your friends know your dreams. You know their dreams. Are you holding accountable? Are you helping each other make good decisions? Same with your family, same at work. This is every area of life. That's what I'm trying to say the past seven leadership group. It's about life. This is legit, and I've seen it work because I grew up with it, and I saw one of the biggest winners of our time, and how she had an attitude, and how it was in her control, and how she helped others do it. And so yes, you were exactly spot on the what, the how and the why, bridge and the gap, and then, and then having other people to help you accomplish it with the past, some leadership group. I've seen it help in times when times are really, really hard. I don't know life is this way. We're either coming out of a crisis. We're in a crisis right now, or about to go into one. Maybe you're in one right now, and you're trying to get a little something, you're trying to get a little motivation, you're trying to learn everything's been learn everything's been good. You might be going into one, I hope it's really far from now. The Pat Summitt leadership group, we want to help you be ready for those situations. We want to help you in life. We want to help you prepare for those things that you just don't see coming when life just smash you in the face.

    Stephanie Maas
    Meaningful. Okay, slightly off topic, did you play sports growing up?

    Tyler Summitt
    I did. I played a little bit of everything. You know, actually, one of my mom's favorite stories was the story about me playing soccer. And this story goes into it shows who my mom is and how much she's willing to change and improve over time. So you gotta understand, I'm playing soccer. I'm like five, but at that point, my mom's already done a lot of the things. Like, she's already been coaching for decades. She's already on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She's already known throughout the state of Tennessee. It's like, you know, nowadays it's Pat Peyton, Dolly and Elvis. Those are, like, the four first name people that you'd at least heard of if you're in the state of Tennessee, right? And so she's already that. She's already celebrity. She's already the greatest coach, the greatest in her industry, but she comes this five year old soccer game, and, you know, I'm out there playing on the first half. It's her first game, my first game, every you know, and so everything's new. So I'm out there playing, I come over at halftime, and I say, okay, Mom, how'd I do? And she said, You did all right. And you're, you know, Seth, you're, you're learning my mom. Now, you know, that's not my mom, like you're starting to learn. Like, it doesn't sound like a past something thing to say. So I was like, now, come on, mom. Like, how'd I do? She said, Well, you're not being aggressive, not impacting the game. You just stand in there. Like, do something. Go that way. Go there, go left, go right. You know, do something. I'm like, okay, okay, I'm gonna help my team. Okay, so I go back out there. Second half, I'm everywhere. I am in line to in line, sideline to sideline. I'm all over the place, and so I'm winding I come over, I'm breathing, come back over to my head coach, and we get in our huddle, and he was not happy with me. He was actually really upset at what I just done in that second half. So I'm confused. Now I walk slowly over mom. I'm very confused as like, okay, Mom, you tell me to be more aggressive. My coach just told me I was playing out of my position. My mom did not realize I was the goalie in the car ride home. I i explained that as a mom, yeah, I was, I was the goalie, and she's, does that matter? And so, you know….

    Stephanie Maas
    That's awesome.

    Tyler Summitt
    It don't matter your position at basketball, or you you're up and down, you're side to side. So clearly, coach of the century hadn't learned soccer yet. But reason I tell that story, the reason she told that story, is what she did after my mom coaches. Century. Took pen and paper. She goes to a 23 year old assistant soccer coach at Tennessee. That soccer coach went on to be the head coach. She's a Texas now she's the head coach of Texas, so she knew what she was talking about, but my mom didn't know that she's 23 and so my mom goes and sits down pen and paper, says, Hey, can you teach me soccer? And starts taking notes. Then that tells you how much my mom was investing in family, and she knew how to be a good mom, but then she started taking notes on team bonding exercises, how to build culture. See, soccer has more players than basketball, so my mom's thinking, if it'll work for 20 people, it'll work for my 10 players. Starts taking notes. My Mom won two more national championships after that, after taking notes like that, using some of those team bonding exercises, using some of those things that help your culture, and needed them too. With that 2007 2008 national championship back to back, she needed some those personalities didn't mix at the beginning. A lot of people don't know that, but those teams needed some of that, and she used that. So again, I asked, Are you open to change? Are you comfortable being uncomfortable? Think about how uncomfortable you would be if you are whatever you are of the century. You're the best. And you go there and you're taking notes to 20 something, and you're taking notes and you're going back to where the industry you're really good at, you're applying it. I mean, how open to change could you possibly be? And so that I asked somebody listen like, Are you resisting change? Is there somewhere in your life, career, home, maybe in your health? I don't know. Are you resisting change? That's what we enjoy helping with. That's what mom enjoy helping people with, being comfortable, being uncomfortable, being comfortable with change. That was one of the things my mom was actually consistent. At. Sounds weird. She was consistent being uncomfortable. She was consistent changing and always trying to get better. So that was a long winded answer to say. Did I play sports? But yes.

    Stephanie Maas
    That's awesome. This has been so meaningful. You know, I could have gone online and read her bio, but hearing you talk about her super meaningful. And I think it really shows again. One of my favorite quotes that you quoted was people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care, and this really brings that to light. Yes, you're honoring your mom without a doubt, but you're also really putting into others to better their lives, an amazing woman. Thank you for helping me get to know her today.

    Tyler Summitt
    Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

    " target="_blank">

Action Catalyst Update: John Rossman

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On March 18, 2025
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  • author, Business, coaching, data, digital, disruption, future, leadership, metrics, speaker, success
Author, executive advisor, and Managing Partner and Founder of Rossman Partners, John Rossman, rejoins the show to discuss “the innovator’s dilemma”, building foundations, chasing perfection, and making big bets, how to REALLY use metrics and make metrics a verb, 3 megatrends for the future of business, the role of business in democracy, and the #1 […]
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  • Author, executive advisor, and Managing Partner and Founder of Rossman Partners, John Rossman, rejoins the show to discuss “the innovator’s dilemma”, building foundations, chasing perfection, and making big bets, how to REALLY use metrics and make metrics a verb, 3 megatrends for the future of business, the role of business in democracy, and the #1 mistake leaders make.

    About John:

    John Rossman is the Managing Partner and Founder of Rossman Partners. He is a business strategist, operator, and expert on digital transformation, leadership, and business reinvention. He has consulted with many great brands including Novartis, Fidelity Investments, Microsoft, Walmart, and Nordstrom. He served as senior innovation advisor at T-Mobile and senior technology advisor to the Gates Foundation. He is an operator and builder whose love is diving into business problems and customer needs designing solutions and business opportunities. 

    At Amazon, Rossman was responsible for the launching and scaling the merchant integration team and played a key role in launching and scaling the Amazon marketplace business, which is now over 50% of all units sold at Amazon.com. Also responsible for the enterprise services business with responsibilities for Toys R Us, Target.com, NBA.com and other great brands.

    As an author, Rossman has released “Think Like Amazon: 50 1/2 Ideas to Become a Digital Leader”, “The Amazon Way on IoT: 10 Principles for Every Leader from the World’s Leading Internet of Things Strategies”, “The Amazon Way: Amazon’s 14 Leadership Principles”, introducing readers to the unique corporate culture of the world’s largest Internet retailer, with a focus on the fourteen leadership principles that have guided and shaped its decisions and its distinctive leadership culture — as only an insider could do, as well as 'Big Bet Leadership', an executive leadership playbook for winning in the hyper-digital era.

    Additionally, Rossman is a keynote speaker on innovation, leadership and digital transformation. John leads workshops on a wide variety of innovation, internet of things, digital strategy, and creating a culture of agility, trial and error, scaling and accountability. His goal is to give audiences tools they can immediately use to operate differently.

    Learn more at JohnRossman.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Host
    We are pleased to welcome back to the program John Rossman, an author, executive advisor and keynote speaker on digital transformation, leadership and business reinvention. He was an early executive at Amazon and now serves as the managing partner and founder of Rossman Partners, and he was previously our guest on episode 433, of the Action Catalyst. John, welcome back.

    John Rossman
    Great to be back.

    Host
    A lot of your public work in the past has touched on your time at Amazon; The Amazon Way, Think Like Amazon, that was sort of the focus the last time we caught up. You've got a few new works out now. But I want to start with the Rossman Business Manifesto: The Pig, The Lipstick, and The Playbook of Champions, This really sounds like you're taking the more holistic ownership of all of your experience, bringing it together. Who's the target audience for this manifesto, and what's the specific problem it's addressing, and how did you come to identify that problem?

    John Rossman
    So I get to do a lot of keynote speaking, and I have some clients, and one of the interesting things I've seen over the past year is most of my work has been about kind of major transformation, innovation, but I've had a half dozen keynotes where it's like, no, no, no, no, no. We want to focus on our culture and execution and kind of like some of the basics. And so that was like one clear signal, and the other signal is last year we saw a number of just gold standard brands. Ironically, a lot of them out of the Pacific Northwest. Here, a number of gold standard brands who went from being lauded in the pinnacle within their category to like a substantial business challenge that they have, right? So the brands I'm thinking about, think about this set of gold standard brands, Starbucks, Boeing, Nike and Intel, right? Very different sectors. All of them a different sort of situation, but they clearly have suffered from a combination of what I think are kind of two factors. One is they get kind of trapped within their own business model, and they're just incrementalizing themselves to the next thing. So that's kind of the innovators dilemma. And the other is a cultural thing, of like, what their expectations are in the business between themselves, and that's kind of a culture of mediocrity that hasn't become just accepted. It's actually become the standard within a number of kind of healthy companies. And I think that that combination is really the challenge that I address in the pig, the lipstick in the playbook of champions, of being both trapped from our own success and not seeking high performance, both for our business and for the way that we work. And so that's the specific problem. But I wanted to get it out. It's a free resource ebook. It is a playbook. We outline specific things to do that I think are both practical, but they're underplayed. They're understated within most organizations, but a couple that I think are super powerful and simple. So there's three sections of the book, building the foundation, chasing perfection, taking big bets under building the foundation, one of the key plays is about people, and I think everybody starts with the wrong place when they think about getting the right people in the organization, helping them be successful. Because everybody thinks it's about like the person, and I disagree. I think it's about a thoughtful design of the organization and what the job is that needs to be needed. And so many companies haven't really thought through, you know, for this role, for this team, for this core capability, or a company, what's the job that's needed now and going forward. How would we define it? What do we think kind of the consistent goals are going to be? What's the decision making criteria and scope of this? What are the key metrics that we imagine this role having? And what do we think the the non obvious skills and background and actions? Attributes that would help somebody be successful, even if you have somebody in the role today and you want to help take their performance from good to world class, rethinking what the job is, is a super powerful way to help that person achieve those goals. But it goes so underplayed in companies, and this is not a big exercise to do, you know, and everything, but companies don't do it. So that's an example. Here's another one, and it's kind of from the chasing perfection section of the book, which is all about, like, how do we run a great business today, and how companies design and use metrics to actually get the signal of where aren't we good enough from a customer experience or from an operational standpoint. Today, I was a partner at Arthur Andersen. I was a green belt. I'm an industrial engineer by education. I thought I knew how to use metrics for impact, and I learned a whole graduate level course at Amazon, and it's been kind of one of the consistent things I work with clients in my keynotes on since then, is like metrics and how we use them. And there's two parts that I'll talk about here today. One is like, just how you design metrics, and it always has to be a balanced scorecard of metrics, right? You can't have just like one metric. You need efficiency, you need quality, you need cost metrics, right? And it's the design relative to those. But then the second part is like, what do you do with those metrics, right? And so I always talk about, make metrics a verb, right? They're not a thing, they're not static, they're a verb. And the and the action that we take is, how do we discover the signal, not to pat ourselves on the back, but to see where there's opportunity to chase perfection? And that was, I think, the design of kind of the metrics meetings, and the tone and the tempo and the purpose of those meetings is an absolute game changer for teams and companies that can turn metrics into the fuel that a improve the business for today, but it also it's like going to the gym. If you do this all the time, you're going to get the idea that fuels the next section of the playbook, which is big bets, like, how do you actually innovate and transform?

    Host
    You've mentioned part three as big bets, and you've already alluded to your other work, which is Big Bet Leadership, Your Transformation Playbook for Winning in the Hyper Digital Era. But we've all heard about the digital era. We've been in it for a while now, but before we dive deeper, just give us the definition of what the hyper digital era is. Exactly what's that distinction?

    John Rossman
    We know we're not good at making change happen, right? Like, if you look at the history of time, like the competitive advantage and life of companies tends to be pretty short. And if you think the past 2530 years of digital transformation and digital disruption has been something, the next 25 is going to make that pale in comparison, right? Like we are heading to an era, and it's not just because of technology. I outlined kind of three mega forces with kind of a fuse tying them together. And the three mega forces are a disruptive technology, which is, by itself, a highly disruptive factor. But the second one is just as disruptive, which is the aging of our population, the ability to attract, retain and get better leverage out of out of our skills and out of our people, is going to be a core competitive advantage. Because if you are just going to try to, like, continually hire and compete, you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage. So that's the second major, major force. Mega trend is, you know, the aging of a population and how scarce skilled talents can be. And the third is the overall indebtedness of our country to entitlement programs and to surfacing our debt, and that's going to create downward pressure for capital, so you're going to have to be both efficient for your capital, but it's also a calling, which is for our country to win, we have to innovate, and that innovation comes from all of our companies. It doesn't come from somebody else's place. It comes from our place. And so those three mega forces together are going to create a vortex that creates both an opportunity and a challenge, and there's going to be a bunch of new winners. There's going to be a bunch of new losers in what I call the hyper digital era. And we you can't wait until you go, Oh, now I get it. Now I really need to change. You need back to kind of the athletic metaphor, like you need to get good at how you go. About innovating and transforming. It is an organizational capability. And so the best attribute you can always have is some patience right time to do these things. And so if you wait until you see the signals of kind of slowing growth, customers who don't love us, competition, that's that's kicking us in the rear. Now you're under pressure. Do it from a position of strength and growth. That's the time to build the capability of like, building the next businesses, innovating better, delighting customers better. That's the championship way.

    Host
    To point number three about debts and entitlements. We're now at the beginning of a new government administration looking to make a lot of changes to business and regulations and other things. Do you see a big impact there?

    John Rossman
    Yeah, well, a couple of things. I think that these changes were going to take place regardless of administrations. And I would say I'm hopeful and supportive of any administration that would seek to both serve our citizens better and do it more effectively. And I think that that is what every company needs to do, and all of our federal, state local government should serve you. Do it better, do it more efficiently. The government is here for the people, not the other way around. It's We the People, right? We the People grant the government these powers. It's not the other way around, right? That's why it's an important call to action to me, if our plan is to wait for the government to address and fix the situation, I'm not optimistic about that. That's why I think, especially small, mid sized, large companies, they need to see it as part of the mission of like, our company needs to play a role in how America is more competitive and more innovative, because that's how we keep our great democracy going. And so don't wait for the government to fix it. That's never a great idea. I think that, you know, I'm optimistic that they're going to start tackling some of this. But that's not the whole playbook. The playbook is our businesses need to play a role in this. One of the phrases I'm fond of is that complaining is not a strategy, right? And so what do we do with these observations today, in our business, in our team, in my life, that's what I'm always interested in, is action.

    Host
    Well, that's perfect for our podcast, right?

    John Rossman
    Exactly, The Action Catalyst!

    Host
    You make a pretty bold claim. You say that there are countless books making the case for digital transformation, innovation and reinvention, but they're not sufficient. But what are they lacking that Big Bet brings to the table?

    John Rossman
    Wow. You really did read it. I love it. I love it. So here's what's insufficient. What's easy to do is to talk to senior leaders, and it's like, Oh, I know I need to transform. I know I need to innovate. I know I need to leverage technology. I know I need to delight my customers better. I know I need to evolve my my operating model. I know I need to understand kind of this, this trial and error, experimentation mindset, but there's very little that actually for senior leadership and the teams that serve senior leaders. There's very little that actually says here's things that you the senior leadership team need to do different and the team that's driving this transformation. And so there's a lot written for kind of the individual contributor and the team leader around agile methodologies experimentation, but we couldn't find anything Kevin McCaffrey, I'm referring to and myself. We couldn't find anything that's like, here's what senior leaders need to do. Kevin ran new business incubation for T Mobile. I got to be the senior innovation advisor, working with them for three years. This is what we had to do AT T Mobile. Was our challenge. Wasn't like this tactical process of like, how do we explore, you know, new business models for T Mobile. It was helping the senior leadership understand how they needed to adjust or recalibrate, how they make decisions, how they allocate resources, how they spend time on these businesses and opportunities of the future versus their operating expertise in running today's business. And the biggest mistake that senior leaders make is they think that because they're really good operators and they understand, they've heard these concepts of innovation and experimentation, and so like, okay, I can do that. It starts from a belief system and an understanding fundamentally of what that is about and how to go about it, and if you apply the same tactics, the same belief systems, the same things that made you a great operator into this playbook of experimentation and major transformation, you will fail at it. And that's why we wrote the book. Big bet leadership is to for senior leaders and the teams. Serve senior leaders to really point out to them, these are things that you need to do different. Again, it's a very action oriented book, not theoretical. And that's what is missing in most books about innovation and transformation, is it's like, yeah, no duh, I need to change and I need to be competitive, but tell me what I need to do differently today as a senior leader to help make that happen. That's what we tried to answer in this book.

    Host
    But as a companion to that book, you've got a lot of tools available on your website for taking this big bet theme further, but one of the most intriguing to us was Big Bet GPT. Can you explain what that is?

    John Rossman
    Yeah, so, you know, we kept the book very readable, right? It's, it's 45,000 words. It's a great narrative. It's a great audio book. And so we offloaded from a lot of the templates and tools and, you know, checklists and things to do. And so one of the things we did with, with all of that, was we created a purpose built GPT, and we have a prompt sheet that goes with it that can help you do these exercises of kind of developing the what sucks, memo of really thinking through your three futures. Exercise of putting these practices into place, it won't think for you. It won't do the work for you, but it is an incredible companion to help you see different framing, different phrasing, different options that you have out there. And so it really is a kind of a turbo button to help you speed your way through thinking this playbook through for yourself. I think there's more for us to do there too.

    Host
    Well. I'm glad you said that. So what's next, and where can people find you?

    John Rossman
    Yeah, so people can find me on LinkedIn. John Rossman, that's really simple, or bigbetleadership.com is where all the resources and everything is, and that's also at rossmanpartners.com. What's next? Like, that's what I'm thinking about right now, and I think it's something that is a combination of for senior leaders and team leaders. How do I actually address these two core challenges that we identify in this business manifesto, which is a kind of being trapped by our success, that's the innovator's dilemma, and B, kind of suffering from accepting mediocrity, but leveraging AI to help you do that better. And how do I incorporate AI into everything that I do within an organization? That's what being an AI first company is about, and I think it's both kind of small tactics that you take, but it's also about re envisioning and leveraging AI. And so I think it's a combination of kind of business strategy leadership, but leveraging these very real and dynamic, fast changing capabilities that generative AI and other technologies bring to us. Because it's like a new internet. It's like, oh, now we have electricity. Like, it truly is a fundamental capability shift and again. Like, don't wait until it's too late. You gotta get comfortable, both individually and as a company, in how you leverage these things to make change happen.

    Host
    John, thanks for being here once more.

    John Rossman
    I love it. Thanks for having me.

    " target="_blank">

How To Talk Good and Stuff, with Michael Chad Hoeppner – Episode 481 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On March 4, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • acting, Adam Outland, author, Business, coaching, communication, entrepreneur, focus, memorization, sales, speaker, success
Michael Chad Hoeppner, author, professor, and the Founder and CEO of GK Training, shares the very specific background he and Adam have in common, and covers topics such as embodied cognition, the Lego trick for memorization, the 5 P’s of vocal variety, a tactical exercise for sales people, the BAD speaking advice you’ve heard 100 times, […]
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  • Michael Chad Hoeppner, author, professor, and the Founder and CEO of GK Training, shares the very specific background he and Adam have in common, and covers topics such as embodied cognition, the Lego trick for memorization, the 5 P's of vocal variety, a tactical exercise for sales people, the BAD speaking advice you've heard 100 times, being present for the audience, the risk in using prepared materials, and the parallels between sales and acting.

    About Michael:

    Michael Chad Hoeppner is the Founder and CEO of GK Training, a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies, and organizations the communication skills to reach their highest goals in work and life.

    Michael has worked with some of the world’s most influential companies and leaders, across a wide range of industries, universities, and professional sectors. His corporate clients include: three of the top eight financial firms in the world, 45 of the AmLaw 100, and multinational tech, pharma, and food and beverage companies. He teaches his unique approach to communication at Columbia Business School, in both the MBA and PhD programs.

    Michael assists clients in every aspect of their communication: public speaking, business development, executive presence, interpersonal agility, Q&A, speech writing, email skills, and more. His individual coaching clients include varied professionals at the peak of their industries: US Presidential candidates, deans of Ivy League business schools, three of the managing partners of the 25 largest global law firms, founders of asset management firms with $100B+ under management, field officers of international peace keeping organizations, and visionaries in various fields, including the innovator who coined the term cloud computing, the most successful venture capitalist in the US for a consecutive 5-year period, and senior board members of the Special Olympics. Michael advised US democratic presidential candidates in the 2016 and 2020 races, including his role as senior communications strategist and debate coach for the Andrew Yang 2020 Presidential campaign. He also works with political aspirants at the beginning of their careers, including pro bono work for Vote Mama, an org that supports mothers with young children seeking first-time public office.

    His background in communication, training, and teaching is diverse and rich, having studied linguistics, theatre, speech, rhetoric, philosophy, and communications at the graduate and undergraduate level. His work in professional communications started two decades ago with achieving his Master of Fine Arts degree from NYU’s graduate acting program, studying with many of the preeminent vocal and performance teachers in the country. After NYU, Michael enjoyed a prolific first career as a professional actor: playing on Broadway twice, including working with stage legends like Nathan Lane; touring to 30+ US states; performing internationally, including at the 2009 European Capital of Culture; guest starring in prime-time network television; and originating roles in independent film.

    His passion then evolved, shifting to launching his first and still primary entrepreneurial venture, GK Training. As head of GK, Michael developed his unique, proprietary approach to communications training over a decade plus, an approach that utilizes kinesthetic learning to unlock rapid and lasting behavioral change. In that work he has created a suite of over 40 proprietary kinesthetic drills to address stubborn communication challenges like excessive filler language, lack of eye contact, slouching, talking too fast, and more with innovative tools that activate embodied cognition and circumvent thought suppression. Now entering its second decade, GK Training has clients in 43 industries across five continents.

    Michael’s work in academia at Columbia University spans disciplines. In addition to teaching in the MBA and PhD programs at the Business school, he designed the curriculum for the PhD program’s capstone communication course focused on entering the job market, as well as Executive Presence programs for the Law school. One of the GK online courses he designed is integrated into the Advanced Management Program summer curricula. His proprietary kinesthetic learning drills are featured in the curriculum of communication courses in the Management Division. He has coached over 15 members of the business school faculty. And in a bit of foreshadowing, one of his first jobs after college was copy editing for the Columbia National Arts Journalism program.

    Michael’s accomplishments in written communication — though not as far-reaching as his work in the spoken word — is equally varied. It includes: stump speeches and debate openers for Presidential candidates; op-eds for celebrities and public figures (placed in publications like the Washington Post and Time Magazine); plenary sessions at NGO conferences; investor pitch decks for start-ups; and nuts-and-bolts editorial work like copy editing and proof reading for over 25 NYC-based publications when he first moved to NYC in 2000.

    Beyond his primary role as founder and head of GK Training, Michael dedicates time to mission-driven organizations focused on sustainability and non-partisan approaches to solving humanity’s most dire environmental challenges, including work with WWF, the Trust for Public Land, and climate-focused accelerators like SOSV’s IndieBio and the NYU Urban Future Lab.

    As a thought leader, Michael is one among the growing chorus of voices identifying the link between the physical aspects of spoken communication and broader issues of health and wellness.

    Michael attended Dartmouth College and Colorado College and graduated cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa with a B.A. in History and Philosophy. Michael received his MFA from NYU.

    Learn more at MichaelChadHoeppner.com and GKTraining.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Adam Outland
    Welcome to The Action Catalyst. Today's guest is Michael Chad Hoeppner, the founder and CEO of GK Training, a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies and organizations the communication skills to reach their highest goals in work and life. He's a coach, a professor and a curriculum designer at Columbia Business School, as well as the author of the new book, Don't Say, Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life. Michael, thank you so much for making the time. I was really looking forward to this conversation for many reasons, one of which is that both my parents were opera singers.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah, I knew that. I mean, I of course, did a little research about you, and that's the coolest thing, because you have already a shorthand vocabulary for a lot of this. And my parents similar, were both professional cellists.

    Adam Outland
    Wow.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah, similar kind of artistic passion, but yeah, my mom, in fact, is retiring from the Colorado Symphony Orchestra after 63 years.

    Adam Outland
    Wow!

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    In the orchestra, yeah, my dad played more than 50 so together they have something absurd, like 115 years in the symphony, or something crazy.

    Adam Outland
    That's amazing. You can tell your parents that I was temporarily dedicated to the cello until we moved to Boone, North Carolina, and my parents decided to relocate our house about a half a mile from where the bus would drop you off, uphill. And in order for me to practice, I had to slug that thing all the way. And quickly lost my inspiration.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Time to switch to a violin, right, or the triangle.

    Adam Outland
    The triangle sounded like it would have been a good choice. Well, that's amazing. So yeah, you know, I can relate a lot to what it's like to grow up with music. And there's part of your story I was really curious about, which is, you know, what was your initial inspiration to become on day?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Hilariously, nothing of the kind. I come from a blended family, eight of us kids all together, and none pursued professional music. So I don't know if it skips a generation or what that would be. But I actually was focused on, I wanted to be a paleontologist or an archeologist or a marine biologist, and that obviously is not what has come to pass. So I didn't really get interested in, let's call it communications of any kind, until middle school and high school, and that was when I was getting into theater a little bit. The pivot I'll hone in on, is actually fast forwarding all the way until about oh 2010, or so, which is I was a professional actor for about 10 years, Broadway film and TV and but what I began to discover is that even more interesting than portraying characters on stage, I became totally fascinated by how people learn to do that activity. And so I started becoming really obsessed about, how can you help people be more more effective and calmer and more themselves in front of audiences? So this was a somewhat natural evolution into that. The biggest thing is that we really developed a way in which to use embodied cognition, and by that, I mean getting people to use their bodies to build habits. So, you know, like the adage of learning to ride a bicycle and you never forget, and we developed a whole suite of kinesthetic tools to help people be more effective. So they're a little bit related to theatrical training, but not really, because I kept hiring actors to try to be coaches within our firm, and they looked at me a little bit baffled when I would teach them some of these exercises. I really discovered, as an actor, half my time on stage was slightly equivalent to torture, painful, agonizingly self conscious, hyper aware of every little thing, and relentlessly self critical. Many, many artists out there, and certainly most performing artists out there can relate to that. And what I discovered was that if I could put my focus on something very concrete, it was literally the only way I could navigate through those, those moments of like, really painful self consciousness. What I discovered was that, or that I thought about it, the worse I felt, and the more I obsessed about my feelings and my pain and things like this, the worse I actually felt. And what I discovered was that simply doing, putting the focus on doing and doing behaviors, and just putting one foot in front of the other actually led to much greater healing and greater escape, deliverance, all those sorts of words. For many people, public speaking is equivalent to agony. If you give them very concrete things that they can do and succeed at, they can get past this agonizing moment and experience a little, tiny, brief moment of victory. And from that moment of victory, you can build and build and build, and pretty soon they've established a completely different kind of muscle memory that can help them succeed. One of the first profound experiences I had individually coaching someone is when I dreamt up this Lego block idea because he was having a really difficult time memorizing anything. And so. What I was trying to get him to do was to give himself just a moment longer before all the terrible self critical, berating voices came alive in his brain. And so I had him share one idea at a time and stack a Lego block at the end of each idea. It gave him something to do. Rather than you're terrible, you can't memorize anything. What a terrible communicator you are. He had a distraction, something he had to do, and then in that moment, this total miracle happened, which his brain had a moment to think and actually recall the information he was trying to remember. So it was this really powerful moment of kinesthetic learning. From there, I just developed these exercises working with with real life communicators, both very high stakes communication situations, like presidential candidates for debate prep, but also people much more, you know, Junior, which would be like high school students trying to get better at speaking so they can give a good oral report.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, quite, quite a wide range. I remember the first time I encountered a challenge speaking. If I wasn't in a good head space, I, like, my vocal cords would, like, constrict or something, and I'd have to, like, clear my voice, like, seven times. Super annoying.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yes. So blushing, you know, turning beet red, dry mouth. There's a whole bunch of things that people experience that are these physical manifestations of feeling tremendously nervous.

    Adam Outland
    And so, your process is often to try and work through the I don't you call it psychosomatic part, but the emotional response, the nerves before diving into maybe more of a tactical approach?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah, you use the tactics to unlock what I call a virtuous cycle of good communication. So you essentially fix the problem with these kinesthetic tools. They use embodied cognition. They change the pattern dramatically. And then once the pattern is changed, what also tends to change is all those automatic responses that are happening when the pattern is not going well. So there was a person I worked with one time, who would always blush very, very intensely, and I mean, instantly, she would start public speaking, and instantly turn beat red, and she felt terrible about this, and very self conscious. And so the first thing she said to me is, I have to stop turning red. And I said back to her, that's not true. You have to stop moving your feet. She looked at me rather blankly, and what was going on was that she would begin speaking, and totally different than how she would stand or use her body, if she was talking to a friend at the proverbial water cooler, she would begin to relentlessly shift her weight back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, almost like miniature pacing, but very rapid, rapid pacing. At the same time, she'd be turning beet red, and she'd be trying to hide this by continually smoothing back her hair over her face, trying to almost camouflage this activity with this motion of her hands over and over again. So I actually crouched down, and I gave her feet some physical feedback to find stillness that tapped on the top of her feet, put some books on top of her feet to keep them anchored to the ground. And when she did that, all of a sudden, magically, she actually took a breath in. Her diaphragm dropped down. Her lungs filled with air, and her entire communication instrument became still. And all of a sudden, she spoke more slowly. For a moment, she breathed in. She got a better idea. She realized she actually has something to say to start the speech off, and she didn't blush.

    Adam Outland
    Sometimes you have to act your way into proper thinking, instead of trying to think your way into proper acting, right?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    100%. If I could, if 1,000% was a thing, I would say 1,000% but 100% Yes, precisely. Actors know this as Inside Out versus outside in approaching of a character. You can see this in other aspects of life too. I mean, anyone who has become aware of some of the sort of approaches or focuses for health and wellness and mental health, you hear people talk about saying out loud each morning some gratitudes or doing these physical things that are reminding you of some of the mindsets that you want to keep. And yes, absolutely. I mean, if you want to go religious for a second, think of all the religious traditions in the world and how very often, if there's a level of devotion that is trying to be unlocked, they actually do physical rituals, sometimes even regimens. And yes, these ways of acting, and if you want to use sort of philosophical language, acting virtuous can unlock positive feelings too.

    Adam Outland
    So almost an anchoring and through your physical actions. One of the things I just… not to do a perfect segue here, this will just kind of take us a different road. But I have to ask for our listeners, the five Ps of vocal variety. I'd love to hear what the five Ps of vocal variety are, because I've learned how important vocal variety is.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah, the first thing I should say is I did not invent vocal variety. Humans use vocal variety. We've been using it as long as. We're human, and there's some really important reasons why we use it, which we can get into but let's cut to your question, which is these five Ps and those five Ps are pace, pitch, pause, power and placement. Probably the first four are instantly familiar. Let's go through them quickly. Pace is speed, so that's fast and slow. Pitch is the note on a musical clef, high or low. So high or low, pause is exactly what it sounds like, silence, and maybe even varied lengths of silence. Power is just another word for volume, so that's loud and soft, and then placement is probably the only one that's not instantly familiar. Placement means where is the sound placed in your body. A big misconception that people have about speaking is that it's a totally cognitive activity, like if I think of smart words, I will say smart words, but it's actually a physical activity. It takes 100 muscles to do what you and I are doing right now. It's a physical activity. I mean, even just the act of enunciation, if you think for a moment, even just saying the word enunciation, how deeply physical that is, that final p of placement, just to be very clear, because sometimes people get a little confused about this. That means where the sound is placed in your body. So the The easiest example to think about is, if you have a friend with a really nasal voice, what's happening technically, is the sound is only amplifying in like the nasal passages in the nasal area of the face. So that's if P placement, and we use these 5p of vocal variety to do a whole bunch of really important purposes, like convey meaning, convey emotion, create surprise, and more and but those are the five P's.

    Adam Outland
    It's amazing. And as you keep going, I just, you know, I do actually a lot of interpretation of these lessons with my kids, because it's so relevant right now. Yeah. And you know, your voice and communication is like the one of the most essential things that I want to make sure they they can do, because it's so critical to human relations. So anyway, I love all of this training as a parent just as much as a professional.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah, let's talk about kids for a second. So we are actually in the midst of a real crucible moment in which how our kids learn to speak is a little bit under threat because they spend so much time looking at these devices right here. And for those of you who are just listening, of course, I'm holding on my cell phone and because they're not actually kind of learning interpersonal behavior and interpersonal dynamic in the same three dimensional, 24/7, kind of way that previous generations did. It's fraught. It's in a little bit of danger right now, and I applaud you for taking your one and a half year old's development seriously, because it matters, and we take these skills for granted. We should not.

    Adam Outland
    Hmm. I don't know how much international work you do, but do you find change based on the geography someone's grown up in, like a German person who's working on public speaking, versus someone who's French or Korean? How that impacts those five Ps?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah, for sure. So to answer the question, yes, I've worked with folks on most of the continents of the globe and all kinds of different walks of life. I for many years when I lived in New York City, I taught at Columbia Business School in the PhD program. And a lot of the folks who get their PhDs at Columbia speak English as a second or third or fourth language. I coach in the startup world a lot, and a lot of the founders who are building companies in the US speak English as a second or third or fourth language, and oftentimes hail from somewhere else. And there's two ways I would suggest we think about this. On the one hand, there are the core things that humans do, and we do them all over the world, and that's partly because we are communication instruments. Communication is not a side card of being human. We built this incredible system of spoken language to be able to team up and gain an evolutionary advantage over somebody else or some other creatures, or stop the marauding, you know, cave bears or whatever it is. So this is just part of being human. But then on top of that core, there is endless complexity with how different languages work. So yes, there are these these changes and these differences all over the place. And then oftentimes, what you're trying to do, though, no matter what culture, is not unlock how an American would speak, or how a German would speak, or how a Brit would speak, but you're trying to unlock how that person would speak, but crucially, when they are not thinking about themselves and how they speak, but thinking about the person they're trying to reach, and all of what we think of as the behaviors of presence or the behaviors of confidence, that means enunciation and eye contact and gestures and all the rest these come out flawlessly when we're in that. Activity of really, truly trying to reach the other person. So no matter the culture that I'm working in, that's what I'm trying to help people unlock.

    Adam Outland
    So important. What do you see as the bigger challenges as it relates to vocal, not just vocal variety, but speaking in general, for salespeople? What are some of the common concepts you end up leaning into the most with people who are in that profession?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    I'm going to offer a tactical suggestion first, because it's so useful and so relevant to selling, and you can do it today and make your life better right away. I teach an exercise in a skill called linguistic Well, actually, sorry, the exercise is called finger walking. The skill is called linguistic precision, which means, essentially, are you choosing words, or are words just choosing you? So the exercise is simply when you're practicing asking questions and getting better at doing that, you walk your fingers across a table or desk, choosing each and every single word that comes out of your mouth. The finger steps are the equivalent of the act of choosing words. So in a sense, you're walking your ideas across the table. Now that's the skill, but the way to apply it, if you're in a selling situation, is to practice asking single questions with linguistic precision. There's no filler, no non fluencies, and then at the end of the question, draw and an imaginary question mark in silence. Now this is really powerful for people in a sales role, because what you'll see is that oftentimes they're great at chit chat, they're great at rapport building, they're really good at asking questions to learn more about the person. And then they get to the crucial moment of asking for a next meeting or asking for the business, and their communication falls apart, and they ask like, nine questions in a row, and they talk really quickly and a bunch of samples, and they go down, they back up, they don't let it and all of it crumbles. And so you're practicing this very singular skill of asking one question with linguistic precision and then tolerating relaxed silence at the end, so that you build the muscle of saying something like, how would you like to move this forward? When would you like to meet again? Is there anyone else that we should loop into this conversation? And these kind of, what we call, you know, closing questions, and very often, sales folks will have a moment or two within interactions that feel really fraught for them. And if they can build that skill single questions with linguistic precision and relax silence at the end. It really helps them.

    Adam Outland
    That's great. That's a great technician way to look and reverse engineer successful communication. You have this engineer mind about you that's allowed you to extrapolate the tools to make someone a good speaker.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Yeah. You ask really insightful questions. I don't actually relate to having much of an engineer's mind, I think I have much creative artists mind, or even an inventor's mind. Creativity is the thing that I'm pretty much addicted to. What I would say is that the engineering concept is right in a certain way, which is I became frustrated with how stymied people were by really bad advice. And I don't mean to say bad advice, like they're being sabotaged by people, but bad advice sounds like this. Just be yourself. Just be conversational, Just be natural. These sorts of things are intended to relax the the person you're talking to, but they don't, because all they do is make the person think more about themselves. And they're not relaxed. They don't feel like themselves. They don't feel conversational. They feel perhaps rocked with self consciousness, as I became interested, like, how can you get in there when someone has been really messed up, and engineer them for greater success? By setting up their physical and their vocal communication instrument for success. I helped set them up for success, but it's them who's doing it when they have like an engineer, set themselves up, set their physical and vocal communication instruments up for success. All of a sudden, their brain is dazzling, and it does what it's incredibly good at, which is thinking about ideas now that it's not totally jammed up with anxiety and and multitasking of Don't be nervous. Don't look like an idiot. Don't look like a fraud. Don't mess up. Don't all of a sudden, brilliant things come out of their mouth. And if we think of part of speaking as this act of being present and being focused on the other person, you can't be present if you are thinking about all the stuff you forgot, or anxious about all the stuff you're about to forget. So very often, written materials, although intended to be a support, very often, they cannot be that helpful, because it puts you in the past or the future endlessly. And the act of speaking is a physical one. You're not going to be giving someone a PDF with a bunch of bullets on it. You are turning air into sound and then sound into words. You're doing it real time, and it's being received real time. So anything you can do to help yourself be in the present, as opposed to, you know, those two other time zones that are not that helpful can be powerful. Because here's the funny thing, I've actually helped many people experience that, that wow, I'm better when I'm not quite so anchored to my notes. The hard part is getting them to have the trust and faith to actually try and test it without it, and kind of get their sea legs with that, because it it takes some bravery of letting go.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, I love that. And I, you know, I'd have to include this question, because I think of sales and acting and how they're similar in so many ways. In sales, I'm very clear you have a sales script, there's a purpose in remembering it, because the words do matter to an extent, but not so much to the extent that it affects the emotion of the conversation in acting. This is the part in the world, I don't know, and so I would love your thoughts. I don't know how often the directors so hard on getting the exact words where you have to get caught up in the words, or if you don't rehearse enough to know all the paragraphs of information, it creates that trauma cycle of, am I, you know, saying the right line, or if you're allowed to be emotionally engaged, how does that? How does that work in acting, and what's your take on scripts versus no scripts in communication?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    So you have to promise to interrupt me a lot in this next answer, okay, because that's a big, juicy question, and we could do a whole separate podcast based on that question. Okay, it depends on the version of stage performance improv, there's no script. There may be a couple like pretenses or a couple starting points, but then there's no script at all. That's part of the delight. Sort of like watching jazz musicians improvise, you get to watch people impromptu come up with these hilarious and amazing and heartfelt real time scripts. It's totally astonishing. On the other side, you've got classical texts, Shakespeare, Chekhov, things like that, where oftentimes the script is so well known that if you really had a line club, some of the audience might Hey, he forgot that word in general, stage acting is required to be a bit more precise than film acting in a couple different ways. So film acting, as long as you're not having to do a bunch of takes in which lines are are piggybacking 100% on each other, then you may have some freedom, and the director may want to take just the best take. So an example of this is, if you're watching serial drama, law and order, those sorts of things, there's quite a bit of latitude with the script. Other times, there's not, and it also depends on the playwright or the screenwriter. So there really is some nuance there. But the place I want to do a tiny, deep dive, though, is actually about this idea of scripting stage actors. What they're striving for is the exact opposite, that it's not a activity of trying to remember and a burden of mental memory, but rather that the process of learning this language actually informs them, and so these words become irreplaceable. These words actually teach them who the character is. And if they really get behind the words. They actually teach them what the action often is. I mean, as an example, here's a piece of poetry I question things and do not find one that will answer to my mind and all the world appears unkind. Now, if you listen to that, a bunch of those words have final voiced consonants. Question things do not find one that will answer to my mind, final voice consonants just mean consonants that have vocal tone, de ne, those sorts of things. So if you really get behind that language, it begins to activate a sense of onomatopoeia, which is the word sounds like the thing that it is. And all those final voice consonants that can be drawn out actually give you some indication of what the character is doing, which is essentially searching and trying to squeeze every possible answer, because their answer list, they cannot find the thing they're looking for. So I don't mean to get too you know, dramatic or artsy with this whole thing, but actors often rely on the words. It's not trying to master them all, and it's a burden. No, those words are their tool, their superpower, in many ways. Now, what the heck does that have to do with public speaking? The same thing, which is, if you have a script, first of all, do you have to learn a script? Learn it physically and learn it with variety. Don't rehearse the same way. Every time, don't rehearse the same way. Every time, don't rehearse the same way. Every time don't rehearse the same way. Every time you're memorizing vocal variety, you're not memorizing the ideas. So move around in space, walk like an elephant, slowly, big, swinging arms through the room, saying the words and the next time, whisper it into your phone like you're at a library, trying not to get scolded by the librarian. So you're learning the ideas, but you're not memorizing vocal. Variety also get to know the ideas in what you're sharing, not just the words in the page. In fact, I often suggest that people write out their scripts like a poem. Make it look how the ideas make sense, not just how the word processor has divvied it up on the page. That has nothing to do with the ideas and the lines. It just has to do with how many characters fit on a line of text. It's a big topic. It's a worthwhile question you ask. But I also don't want to give you a whole soap opera on this one question.

    Adam Outland
    No. I mean, it was great, and you've, you've split up the little pieces of nuggets of wisdom really well. Michael, I hate to even in this interview, because I feel like we're just scratching the surface. There's like another three hours in us. Where can everybody go to learn more about your work?

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Sure, three simple places for the book. It's just DontSayUm.com just the title of the book .com. Don't say um.com, my company's name is GK training, and that's the same URL. G K training.com and then you can find me on LinkedIn. Michael Chad Hoeppner.

    Adam Outland
    Wonderful. Well, I will be looking at your resources for sure, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be as well. Thank you so much for joining us.

    Michael Chad Hoeppner
    Thank you for the interview, and thank you for the really interesting questions. I know that can also sound like lip service, like every guest is like, what a great question. You're so smart. But really fun to get to answer.

    " target="_blank">

Getting Yours, with Matthew Lesko – Episode 480 of The Action Catalyst

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On February 18, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • author, Business, entrepreneur, finances, freelance, funds, government, grants, money, startup, Stephanie Maas, success
Advocate and author Matthew Lesko, known to many as the “Question Mark Guy”, has spent over four decades uncovering ways for people to access billions in government grants and funds they never knew were available.  Lesko covers the difference between the capitalist and community societies within the US, being a sought-after late-night “backup guy”, finding […]
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  • Advocate and author Matthew Lesko, known to many as the “Question Mark Guy”, has spent over four decades uncovering ways for people to access billions in government grants and funds they never knew were available.  Lesko covers the difference between the capitalist and community societies within the US, being a sought-after late-night 'backup guy', finding government grants and assistance for business owners, entrepreneurs and freelancers, meeting, quite possibly, the nation's foremost expert on pasta, and most importantly, listening to your heart.

    About Matthew:

    You might recognize him as the 'Question Mark Guy,' or from his unforgettable infomercials and TV appearances that showed millions of Americans how to unlock government grants and benefits, but Matthew Lesko has spent over four decades uncovering ways for people to access funds they never knew were available, and he’s sold over four million books in the process! Now in his 80's, Matthew is still on a mission to help others through his platform, Lesko Help, where he’s guiding a community of thousands toward the resources they need.

    Matthew Lesko is an energetic, passionate advocate with over 40 years of experience helping Americans access billions in government funding. Known for his colorful suits and infectious enthusiasm, he has made it his mission to reveal hidden pathways to financial support for everyday people. With a background that includes over 100 television appearances on Oprah, Larry King Live, and Good Morning America, Matthew is a captivating storyteller who connects with audiences from all walks of life.

    His community, Lesko Help, has grown to over 15,000 members, where he empowers individuals to cut through red tape and access funds they may not know exist. In a time of economic uncertainty, he’s dedicated to teaching people how to get the support they need from resources they already pay for with their tax dollars.

    Lesko also served in the Navy and earned a master's degree in business administration (MBA) from American University in Washington, D.C.

    Learn more at LeskoHelp.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

    LISTEN:

    SUBSCRIBE TO OUR RSS FEED: https://feeds.captivate.fm/the-action-catalyst/

    SUBSCRIBE ELSEWHERE: https://the-action-catalyst.captivate.fm/listen

    __________________________________________________________________________

    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Stephanie Maas
    Well, we are so excited to have you here, and I'll tell you what, this is a really fascinating background.

    Matthew Lesko
    Anything you want to know, just lead me around by the nose.

    Stephanie Maas
    My understanding is you started your career in the military.

    Matthew Lesko
    Yeah, the Vietnam War. That's why I was in the military. It was three years, two months and nine days. But I wasn't counting. I was a ship driver, and it was great. I never had more responsibility for the end of my, rest of my life. I don't think when he was a 22 year old kid and learned how to drive ships go out in South China Sea. That's before there was any, you know, GPS, or anything like that. You had to go out and shoot the stars to find out where the hell you are. And it was sort of fun. I hated it every minute, but it wouldn't be somewhere else, but it certainly was a great experience. I had nothing better to do at the time. I couldn't get into grad school. I thought, well, yeah, well, maybe I'll go to law school. So I took the LSAT, so I got like two above plant life, yeah, and if you got drafted, then it's the army you get. And I'm not a camper, so living in the jungle, this camping distance sound appealing to me. So the Navy sounded pretty good. Man, that's clean sheets every night. So I did that, and then I was a diplomatic courier in Northern Europe, briefcase handcuffed to me, him, and I finally got out of there, went and got an MBA because of the GI Bill. And then I started businesses that were failing. And that's what you have to do to do anything. You just have to fail. Fail, fail. You practice failing. You don't learn how to succeed. You learn how to fail. Learning how to succeed is a waste of time. When you succeed, it's easy. I mean, there's nothing to learn anymore, so you really have to learn how to fail. It's like learning to walk. When a kid learns to walk, take a step and fall 100 times before they learn to walk. So when we do things as a grown up, that's new. It's the same thing.

    Stephanie Maas
    So let me ask you this. Walk me through this passion that you've had for the last 40 years to help folks access government funding for the things that they need, or they think they need. Talk to me about where that passion came from, what this looks like for you, etc.

    Matthew Lesko
    Well, it started trying to feed myself. You know, that's what life is. You have to take care of yourself and get a job and all that kind of stuff. I was starting businesses. I mean, in the 70s, I had a software company that failed, and I spent the only personal world, and it's trying stuff. And then I became a consultant for big companies like market research consultant. And I'd get information for them to buy and sell companies and markets for this and that and the other thing. And I was stationed in Washington, so back then, before the internet, you went to libraries, remember them to get information and helping rich people. Rich people will pay anything if they think they're going to make money at it. And so I would go around and Procter gamma was a client of mine, and they wanted to start a chain of pasta stores. So that's probably somebody on the board of directors. Hey, why don't we get in the pasta business? So I go out and look at the market and competitors and stuff like that, and I go to libraries around Washington, DC, because we have so many libraries because every agency has their own library for for agriculture, for commerce or for transportation. So you have the world's largest collection of literature on that topic. And I'd go there and try to research the data and the information about what the market is, and talking to librarians, and I remember, I was working on the pasta. And they said, Oh, the librarian said, you want to know about pasta? Hey, go up to the fourth floor in 407, or whatever, and talk to Charlie. He's our pasta expert. That just shocked me, and so went over, talked to Charlie. And Charlie's been studying pasta for last 25 years. He got a master's in it. He's got a PhD in it, and that's all he does is create Studies and Information and that nobody knows about. His wife was sick of hearing about it. Yeah, when I walk in the door with a genuine interest in it, I mean, he just lights up and I could never get out. He would give me studies about all this stuff and what happens, and how the prices and everything, and who's making what? And so I put it all in a package for my client. And what shocked me, though, is that, God, I had no idea. I mean, I grew up in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, coal mining town, and my grandparents were came and worked in the mines from Czechoslovakia, and I'm a coal miner's grandson. And. I Why does everybody know about this? Yeah. And I said, God, nobody works for I, I thought the government was a post office and the IRS, you know, and to see all the wealth that's there and all. And I was making millionaires into billionaires. They'd get money and help and all this kind of stuff. Why? Why isn't everybody that? So I said, Oh, I got to do this. Rich people boring to work for. All they care about is money, you know, their hearts not in much except their pocket. And so I wanted to help the average person. How do I do that? And I can't charge, like I charge rich people to do this information. So it had to be books back then. So someone who flunked English all his life, you know, to write a book was like being on Mars and but I did get a contract. There was an agent that found me, and so he got me a contract to that. So what I did when the government printing office found a book that has a description of all the government programs, money program, took that book, cut and pasted it and became a New York Times best seller, all I did is change the headlines the government doesn't explain things as well. One of my favorite stories is that there's a program. We still have it too, but it's called the urban homesteading act. And see what I would do is read on it. Well, what the hell is this about money and hard? And I read it and the details, it really says, yeah, they get homes that people couldn't pay their mortgages. So the government, you know, guarantees all mortgages. So when your bank doesn't get your mortgage, government gives the bank money, and the government stuck with the house, you know, that's going downhill, and it gets dilapidated and all that kind of stuff. So what they do is, okay, they give them away for $1 so they house this for $1 and they give you a grant for like, $30,000 to fix it up. So what I will do, I'll read that, I'll say, Hey, that's not urban home study. AG, that's houses for $1 you know, to make it user friendly, from the government, became a New York Times best seller. A lot of publicity and ego satisfying stuff happened. So I did a bunch of them. And then years and then I did infomercials that were very popular, because to me, the way to sell books is, if you don't have marketing money and advertising money, you get free advertising. And the way you get free advertising is you become a guest and you act like an idiot, because television loves idiots. So I was a regular on talk shows, because that's how I sold books. Famous talk shows would use me as like the backup guy, like Larry King. I would. I must have done him 1520 times, I don't even know, but he had a TV show that would be an hour long. There's usually some big, high powered, famous person on the first half hour, then what do you do? He said, Come on, you'll be on the second half hour, but let's go. If the guy said he'll stay for another half hour, he's a big name, so they don't push him in the front. They get him at the end of the half hour. Can you stay for another half hour? I'm in the green room as the guy says, No. They bring me up. The guy says, Yes, I go home and I know they owe me and they'll use me again. Or I also was used a lot for people who cancel at the moment last minute. Because, man, you're going to give me a national 1020, 30 minutes of national TV, I'd have to pay hundreds of 1000s of dollars of that if I bought an ad, and being a guest to me is more authentic than an ad. So Letterman would use me when somebody canceled. What was fun for me? Who am I subbing for? Like I said once, for Christopher walk at the last minute. I mean, they found me in Chicago somewhere like noon. They got me on the plane, and I think he taped about six o'clock in the early evening, and I was there to go on, you know, with Christopher Walken, but that's what sold books, man, you give me national air time, and I learned quickly that media doesn't care what you say. I used to worry about because insecure intellectually, and they say, oh, let's go look at this wrong. Nobody reads the book. They're just entertaining people. And I like entertaining people and making people smile. So I was the go to person for that. And then I did infomercials because I say, Oh, I can't grow this. Because how many times can you do Larry King in a year? You know? Then I found out that that you could also get commercials for free. You had to produce them, but once you had it to buy time was the expensive part. You know, I go to TV stations, I say, Okay, I know I can't afford your time, and I don't know if it's worth it. If I knew it was worth it, then I would. But so here's the deal. If you don't sell that time, nobody buys that time. I mean, they have to have something there, so you put let's go, and I'll give you half the money. I knew the information was important. I knew I wanted to try to get it to people. But how do people want it? You know, nobody, they got Google. What are they need me for all that kind of stuff. Bookstores were going down, and so nobody was getting the help there. But until a few years ago, then it's community. We have a community of people. Now people are helping people I don't even help. People anymore. It's the people who find programs. They take advantage of it, and they help other people do it. So it's a community based thing, and that's even better than me, am I? You know, I've been studying this for 50 years. It's hard for me to relate to somebody who just found out about grants, yeah, but the members are though, are all those people, and so they're like volunteers helping. It's also giving them the joy of giving. I mean, this is what happened business, because it feels so good to give. It's very selfish to me. So it's having the joy of giving and helping somebody else. So that's what's happening now. And we also give our profits back to members. We have half this country that 10 of four to $500 bill wages in our country. How the wages are distributed? Okay, back in 1979 which is a turning point in economics for us, 70% of all the wages went to 90% of the people. So the bottom 90% of the income scale were getting 70% of the wages. The top 10% was getting about 30% of the wages. Fast forward, that bottom 90% now only gets about 55% and the top 5% is now getting up to 45% so the share of the pie for 90% of us is shrinking every year, and it's not like we haven't we're not growing GDP growth in that time. It's going like crazy. So we're growing economically as a country. But who's getting it? There's another astounding fact to me when I found this is poverty rates in developed countries, so only developed countries, and this is, is the percentage of people in that country that are poor. We're number one in creating poor people. We have more percentage of our population that are poor than any other developed country. So it's like 17, 18% I mean, the average from all the developed countries is about 10% or so, and some are down to 7% so we create more poor people than any other developed country. Now this is what we are number one in, and that's making millionaires. We're number one in making millionaires. 24 million millionaires. The second is China, and they got 6 million. So we're number one in millionaires, and number one in creating poor people. So that that's what gets me up every day earlier and earlier.

    Stephanie Maas
    You have an amazing way of downplaying your humility.

    Matthew Lesko
    We're all struggling so hard. You know it, I know it. I mean, I've just been here longer, god, 81 I never thought I could even live that long.

    Stephanie Maas
    So let me ask a practical question, if I may. I think that there is such a natural apprehension to go to the government for help, right? It's you're either all in or you have this apprehension, how do you address that? How do you get people over that, and where do they start?

    Matthew Lesko
    Yeah, well, that's two points. I mean, it won't start as easy, uh, getting over that. Other thing, I've been wrestling that 24/7, for 50 years, but yes, now to me, all our incentives in this country are against it. Like, if people want information, they go to the wrong source, because if they don't have money, because they go to Google, and Google is the last place to go for anything if you don't have money, because everything, there are people that want to get money. This is capitalism, but if you don't have money, then you can't go there. But people don't know what else to do, so they get scammed, they lose money, and they just get worse off. And that's because they don't know where this other stuff is. Now the other stuff, which I call the community society, you know, we have the capitalist society of us, and then we have the community Society of us. Now, the community society is helps other people for nothing. They give you money for nothing, and but that represents, you know, a third of everything in our economy is community, society. Two thirds is capitalism, but 1/3 is community, helping each other like your neighbor, okay, neighbors on fire, you charge them to help put out the fire. No, you're part of the community. You're going to help them for free, right? So that's why we have these organizations to do that for people and to help them and to grow so they could contribute to the capitalist society more. But if you're out of the game, you have to get the skills or whatever you need to get into that game, and that's what the community society is. But people aren't trained to do that. They're trained to go to Google and spend my so how do we do that? Okay, I got a couple places to start, but you have to believe it's there, you know, because you can't just say, Oh, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna call one or two people and see what happens. And that's probably wrong. It's like getting a job. You're gonna knock on one or two doors and nothing's gonna happen. And they got hiring today. So. You go home, yeah, there nobody's hiring, and you can't do that. Go to find help.org. Put in your zip code on the left hand corner, up on top, you have community organizations that help you with money, help housing. They're all important things, right? Labor, work, health care, everything. These are non profit organizations, every one of them will never ask you for money. They just give you money. They give you services. They give you now, the next hurdle is now they're not all for you, so you have to start calling and asking for help. See, getting help is a people business. It's not an internet business. You have to find the people in your community that get paid to help people like you. They know what's out there. So you have to learn where these people are and use them. So starting a business, let's say you want to start a business. Okay, put in sba.gov and then slash local dash assistance, sba.gov/low sba.gov/local-assistance, and there's a place to put in your zip code. These are all nonprofit organizations that get paid to help anybody, anybody, start a business, start a nonprofit, work on your invention, be a freelancer, be a real estate investor. Any way to make money. They help you for free. Help you find money. Help you find legal help for free. Everything now they're all not perfect, yeah, and that's why you call them. To me, call two or three of them, four of them, or whatever, but everyone will never charge you money. Here's a couple other ones. Another website is called apex. Apex and accelerate tours with an S and then.us so that's a place again, there in every city that if you're in business, small, big, whatever, the biggest market for anything is the government. They buy anything, and the problem is, learn the bureaucracy, and they even have grants that help you figure out how to get those contracts. Now there's another good one for businesses. It's called Career one stop.org Okay. Now what they do is train your employees for free. They pay for that because businesses don't like paying for training, so the government does. So if you hire people without the skills they need, they'll pay the salary up to 80, 90% of the salary while they learn, or they just give you, I mean, you get hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of dollars to train all your call center people or your marketing people, right? It's phenomenal. And that's training money and as an individual, too. Now in our country, you could without a college degree, you could get paid $40,000 a year to train for $100,000 a year job not going to college and paying them $40,000 a year, the government will pay you $40,000 a year.

    Stephanie Maas
    That's awesome. So with a new administration coming in, is that going to impact how many of these programs might be available in the future?

    Matthew Lesko
    They all say this. So every president says this, but it's important in a way. In the short term, you won't notice anything the system so baked in doesn't matter. And everybody says this to get elected, and especially the current guy, he just entertaining himself. The more outrageous things he could say, the more people will pay attention to him. That's how I got a lot of TV time too. It's being outrageous, but it is significant because they're able to change it a few degree. And so by chipping at the edges and changing a few degree, that means 1020, years from now, we're in a different place. So they do have a long term impact by moving things a little bit, and that's about all they could do, especially now in the beginning, if it ever happens, it'll take years to happen, and it'll just be around the edges, and it'll be new opportunities. I mean, these people now, they believe in capitalism, so I mean, why is Elon Musk following along around this guy? Because nowhere else Elon could get a billion dollars except from the federal government. He's looking for his next billion off the federal government. That's what it's all about. So get your first million off. They've heard government. And the federal government is not the government. Most of the government, for us is what's locally, and then what happens is like right now, there are nonprofit organizations that set up grants. We have this community society that fills in the blanks a lot of times. To me, it's the lower income people that are struggling, because there's so much there that can really change their life if they stick at it, and look for the hell a third of our country, their work is to help you improve your life, and they have money and help to do that, you have to find the right one.

    Stephanie Maas
    Like I said, you have truly spent your life helping others. And don't argue with me.

    Matthew Lesko
    It's hard. I don't think myself are professional or anything. I'm trying to get through life like all of us are, but I feel we all have that obligation. And the older I get now, boy, that is so important to me. Now it's just giving, you know, it to me. How much can I give before I die? And that's a very selfish thing. That's not me trying to help anybody but me.

    Stephanie Maas
    Yeah, sure.

    Matthew Lesko
    What I've been living with for a long time now is realizing my heart's smarter than my brain. We don't listen to our heart enough when we listen to our grain, because we're afraid we don't know what we're doing in life. So we take expert opinion, like people said, I couldn't wear question mark suits, and I just something my heart, I had to do that I did, and I got thrown off of Home Shopping. I lost millions of dollars, but I wanted to do it or something my heart was telling me. But no, the real stuff in life is making those real hard decisions, because it comes from the heart, and you have to listen to that heart.

    Stephanie Maas
    Yeah. Very wise counsel. Very wise counsel. It has truly been an honor to spend this time with you. Thank you for sharing your mission and life's work with us.

    Matthew Lesko
    Oh well, you're so kind, that touches my heart. Thank you.

    " target="_blank">

Living in a Post-AI World, with Terence Mauri – Episode 479 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On February 11, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • Adam Outland, AI, author, Business, disruption, education, entrepreneur, future, leadership, speaker, success, tech, technology
Continuing the discussion from Episode 478, Terence Mauri, acclaimed author and founder of Hack Future Lab, talks about having sweet AND sour in your life, teaching wisdom & judgement, tearing down information silos, the 3 forms of curiosity, deliberate reductionism, and other important topics. About Terence: Terence Mauri, one of the world’s leading experts and keynote […]
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  • Continuing the discussion from Episode 478, Terence Mauri, acclaimed author and founder of Hack Future Lab, talks about having sweet AND sour in your life, teaching wisdom & judgement, tearing down information silos, the 3 forms of curiosity, deliberate reductionism, and other important topics.

    About Terence:

    Terence Mauri, one of the world's leading experts and keynote speakers on Leadership, AI and Disruption, inspires and motivates teams to thrive in ever-changing contexts. Thinkers50 has described Terence as 'an influential and outspoken thinker on the future of leadership.'

    Terence is a MIT Entrepreneur Mentor, a visiting Professor at IE Business School, the Founder of Hack Future Lab, and a 5X Bestselling Author that has been seen in Inc., Forbes, Business Insider, and more.

    Prior to his current role, he was a managing director for one of the world’s largest advertising agencies working with clients such as American Express, JP Morgan and Apple, and emerged as a battle tested director who understands the challenges of turning volatility into value creation.

    Learn more at TerenceMauri.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

    LISTEN:

    SUBSCRIBE TO OUR RSS FEED: https://feeds.captivate.fm/the-action-catalyst/

    SUBSCRIBE ELSEWHERE: https://the-action-catalyst.captivate.fm/listen

    __________________________________________________________________________

    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Adam Outland
    One of the things that occurred to me, how valuable it must be as a leader to stay tuned in to the rapid innovations that are occurring, otherwise you can't leverage them. What do you encourage people to do, to stay plugged in to what's going on? How are people in your orbit receiving their information and staying tuned in to the future?

    Terence Mauri
    Brilliant question, it's a little dividend here, which is the science. The science shows, the research shows, we feel it at a heart a level as well. Is that when you part of a community, virtual or face to face, three things. Number one, discovery, the ratio of new ideas, new perspectives, counter intuitive perspectives. It goes up, and that's important. So discovery. Another one is energy. You know, actually, it's a great source of inspiration and action. And number three is cross pollination, that actually, you know, ideas need to connect together to create, to create breakthroughs. And so discovery, energy, cross pollination, all of this together, you need to be thinking about these three dividends and how you activate them in your in your life. And that can be done through reading, listening to great podcasts, watching Tiktok videos, attending lectures, speaking yourself, writing yourself as well, going to events, conferences, dinner events, you know, do the basics brilliantly. But also, once a quarter, do something that scares yourself. It scares you or excites you or throws you out of your comfort zone. And yeah, for example, I did an event with Google where they had a kind of dinner. Leaders came together, and it was called the sweet and sour dinner. And the idea of the sweet and sour dinner is that let's talk about the good stuff, but let's also talk about the bad stuff. Let's talk about the stuff that should be said that's not being said. Let's ask the questions that should be asked that are not being asked. You know, because of fear or politics or whatever. Sweet and sour is a really important point. So these sorts of conversations, conversations that don't just make us feel good, but make us think hard, gives you so much vitality.

    Adam Outland
    I love that. Given that this is your whole world and work, so you're very plugged in. What would you say are your favorite either conferences or maybe it's podcasts, or where are your best channels for staying informed right now?

    Terence Mauri
    I love, for example, masters of scale, a great podcast. Reid Hoffman, that's a great one. I was on disrupt TV with Vela Ashe, and that was an amazing conversation. So disrupt TV, Web Summit in Lisbon is a great one as well. Slush in the Nordics, that's another great one, which looks at the future of work, the future of leadership, the future of AI. These would be some examples of what I'm excited about right now that I'm constantly engaging with.

    Adam Outland
    Coming back to the academics of things which probably could use even more disruption. What do you think, from your perspective, is the class that's not taught but should be?

    Terence Mauri
    I think it's this idea of what happens in a post AI world. So this intersection of psychology, anthropology, humanity, sociology, that I think the olog is the future is about the origins. It's not just about AI and technology. That's one half of the narrative, but it's dominating every conversation. The other half of the narrative is the origins, because technology changes fast. But humans don't you know, we have Paleolithic brains, God like technology, medieval institutions, the complexities of the world are going like this. Our Paleolithic brains, capacity to respond to the complexities is like this. If you think about the processing power of a chip, it's increased over a trillion times since the 1950s our Paleolithic brains have stayed the same. That creates a wisdom gap, and we're not talking enough about that right now in academia, academia as well, is still very linear. It's kind of very, you know, siloed, and silos can blind us to new perspectives. So I think the future is horizontal. It's silo busting, its cross pollination. Collective intelligence. It's the ologies.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, you said wisdom. And I thought to myself, how does one teach wisdom? And maybe part of wisdom is judgment, right? And how do you help people have better judgment, or more effective judgment? And that is a challenging question probably worth solving.

    Terence Mauri
    And I mean, imagine, you know, if university there was a subject to University on wisdom. And actually, when you go to university, you just don't, you don't go for just three years, very transactional. But our relationships with universities are stretched out over, you know, maybe a lifetime. I think it's time, you know, this age of AI, Age of convergence, Age of disruption, Age of possibility means that we need to radically rethink, reset, reimagine these outdated structures, institutions that we've been holding on to. And this would be one example of how do we reimagine our relationship with academia over a 50 year to high horizon where we get mentoring, we mentor, and we're mentored. We're part of a long term community. For me, we need to rather get stuck in these silos at such an early age and become very transactional. I'd love to see societies and communities where we're tapping onto this collective spirit, collective generosity, generosity, reciprocity, and growing because of that, for the benefit of society, the planet, relationships, institutions.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, well said, and you're right. I think about the silos in particular, you know, in medicine, you see it, it's siloed in the brain or the spine, and then, you know, someone goes into someone's else's lab, and they find a tool or a resource that they could have been using over the last five years.

    Terence Mauri
    Some of the most pioneering innovations have happened at the Cleveland Clinic, for example, to do with heart disease. And one of the reasons why they've done that their ratio of innovation is so high at the Cleveland Clinic is because they got rid of silos that, you know, they made it easier for happy accidents to happen. And what I mean by that is doctors, surgeons from different parts of the hospital coming together to talk, to share different perspectives on the same challenge. And they found that by doing that in an engineered way, engineering cross pollination, the ratio of IDEA, the ratio of innovation, that's now saving more lives, went up in a significant way, in a very measurable way, we can learn from these sorts of courage leap examples.

    Adam Outland
    And that's a great example of disruption that doesn't involve, sometimes people, I think, collate disruption with a software and that's a great example of disruption being in almost a human, organic meeting, where it's it's simply, like you said, cross pollinating and breaking down the silos to solve problems.

    Terence Mauri
    Exactly.

    Adam Outland
    You know, what actionable steps can a leader take to sharpen their organization's readiness for the future?

    Terence Mauri
    I think, start with this idea of future readiness muscle and, you know, we have muscle memory. So what I mean by that is some mindset shifts the the future. And the reality right now is that the future is not just about technology or trends that's important, but even more important than that, it's about mindset shifts and choices and voices and so this future readiness muscle we need to sharpen in meaningful, intentional ways. For example, the curiosity to learn, relearn and unlearn, the clarity to focus, because our attention spans now are one of the rarest and purest forms of leadership, capital, the conviction to make decisions, decision velocity, under pressure, despite volatility, despite uncertainty, these would be some muscles to sharpen, individually and collectively within the organization. A practical example that of that would be at Novartis, the pharma company. They have a 30 day curiosity hackathon, where they sharpen three types of curiosity over the course of 30 days, 100,000 employees. They focus on inner curiosity, so know yourself, know your blind spots, know your strengths other curiosity. Know, the people around you build bridges and outer curiosity, which is, what's a point of view you have about your industry? What's a point of view you have about weak signals or big trends that are impacting your industry? And what are you going to do about them? They call it triple curiosity, inner, other and outer. That's one example of how a company is bringing this future readiness muscle to life in a really human way. So inner is yourself out. Other is other people, and outer is really curiosity outside of the business. So looking at external trends, inflection points, competition. And even other industries, because with industry convergence happening as well, we also can learn a lot, not just from our own industries, but again, that you get trapped in silo thinking, but also breaking into other industries.

    Adam Outland
    Love that. And just a little speed dating questions that we love to end with, with a lot of our guests, I wanted to ask you a few of these too, because I think you have a different perspective. We heard a little bit of what you're listening to. What are you reading?

    Terence Mauri
    I love Cal Newport, uh, slow productivity. That's a great book. Slow productivity, this idea of do less but do better and practice reductionism, then we have this brain bias, adding complexity to complexity. Again, it's not a winning strategy. When the world is coming at you at light speed. You need we all need to start thinking intentionally about reductionism, and what I mean by that is doing less, but doing it more intelligently. For example, once a quarter, look at your business. Look at your workload. What do you need to detox? What do you need to declutter? What do you need to delete when you practice the reductionism in a deliberate way? It's a clarifier, an energizer, a multiplier. Gives you a no strategy as well, which helps you to obviously achieve greater things in shorter time spans. So reductionism. Cal Newport, slow productivity. That'd be one book. Another one would be Paul Oster, Brooklyn Follies. That's fiction. I think reading fiction is really great for the imagination. We've got to be careful about look at this little look down syndrome, constantly looking down and actually reading fiction. The research shows that reading fiction sharpens your imagination muscle, your empathy muscle as well. It also puts you in a slower, beater state of consciousness, which is absolutely a source code for strategic thinking, big picture thinking. The risk that we all take, these are addictive, and what that does is it forces us to become very transactional and very short term, and we get addicted to dopamine hits, short term thinking, reactive thinking, at the expense of longer term, deeper imagination and strategic thinking. So you know, read fiction as well a couple of times a year, at the very least, because that requires discipline. That's important. But also you'll really cultivate your reservoirs of imagination, which will make you stand out, by the way, in a world of sameness, you know, when we've got access to the same AI, the same chat bots. The biggest risk is this curse of sameness and commoditization is going to be your imagination, your onlyness that makes you stand out.

    Adam Outland
    I love it. I mean, to some degree, we're pretty complex computers ourselves, and so that power for creativity one of our biggest strengths that it's been a trend I've seen from a lot of interviews. Thank you for that. You've been through, you know, obviously a lot of personal transformation yourself when you think back. And the question I ask all of our guests to the part of your life we probably didn't talk about as much, which is the pre 21 year old Terence. What's the message you think you would go back and deliver having lived the life you've lived now that that young man would benefit from hearing?

    Terence Mauri
    I think, don't, you know, don't get I mean, it's easy to say this with hindsight, but we're forced into boxes. We force ourselves into boxes. You know, I remember everyone asking me questions from from about the age of 10, what, who do you want to be? What do you want to do? And I understand the intention behind these questions, but who the hell knows at that age, I didn't know, and I think it puts unnecessary pressure. So I know that it's positive intention behind a long time, but the risk is we put ourselves into boxes. We get stuck with perfectionism. We also get really obsessed with getting everything right first time. And of course, sometimes it's impossible not to escape that, because that's the way that college and school work. You know, you pass or you'll fail. So there are some institutional constraints that we have to deal with. I would say, be easier on yourself. Focus more on experimentation, and don't get so obsessed with a plan at such an early, early age focus on developing curiosity skills, relationship skills, conversational skills, presentation skills, skills that will define you and make you more distinctive in a world of sameness where everybody's got access to the same tools, these would be some sort of early reflections and Find yourself mentors. You don't even have to label it, but surround yourself with people who are different to you and your divergent perspectives, younger, older, different cultures. Go traveling. These are, these are great, you know, great initiatives, great actions, and practice courage. Redefine your relationship with. Failure as well. And ask yourself every year, what have I done this year where I've grown, where I've had a setback, where I've shown courage over comfort?

    Adam Outland
    I love it. I think one of the words I latched on to, that you just said, was experimentation. I think when I've looked back that whenever I've even while we're in academics, it doesn't prevent us from being able to try things in the real world scenario, especially with our connectivity nowadays, and it's so valuable every time you go out and you test an idea instead of just reading about it. This has been a phenomenal interview, where can people go to just stay connected to Terence and understand more?

    Terence Mauri
    Well, first of all, you know, thank you for such an incredible interview. I've loved your questions. I've loved our connection, and all the themes that we've discussed are so close to my heart, and I know they're close to your heart as well. It's always great. It's always an honor to meet a kindred spirit, and you never know what's going to happen. So thank you. Thank you for that opportunity. And so for me, you know, I'd want to pay it forward. There's a couple of platforms to stay connected, to reach out part of this community that were constantly part of building and nourishing number one is LinkedIn. Obviously, LinkedIn is a big one. Terrence Maori, LinkedIn. Another one is my website, terencemarry.com check out my podcast show, hack the future. And these would be two or three, and then obviously my new my latest book, The upside of disruption, is another great resource to check out the upside of disruption. And you know, I wish everybody good fortune, health and happiness. I leave everyone with the words of the late chemist Marie Curie. She said, in life, nothing is to be feared, only understood, and the more we understand, the less we will fear. But also Ted Lasso, my favorite coach, he said, stay humble, stay teachable.

    Adam Outland
    Couldn't agree with that last one more. Thank you so much, Terence, for your time. This was fantastic. Was a great interview. I learned a lot.

    Terence Mauri
    Thank you so much, Adam.

    " target="_blank">

The Upside of Disruption, with Terence Mauri – Episode 478 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On February 4, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • Adam Outland, AI, author, Business, dealing with failure, disruption, entrepreneur, futurism, leadership, regret, reward, risk, speaker, success, technology
Terence Mauri, acclaimed author and founder of Hack Future Lab, shares the accident that changed the trajectory of his life, explains how risk and reward travel in the same elevator and why regret minimization is important, and talks about the 3 time horizons of AI as a disruptor, warm AI vs cold AI, being a self-confessed […]
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  • Terence Mauri, acclaimed author and founder of Hack Future Lab, shares the accident that changed the trajectory of his life, explains how risk and reward travel in the same elevator and why regret minimization is important, and talks about the 3 time horizons of AI as a disruptor, warm AI vs cold AI, being a self-confessed failure pioneer, and why we are living in an Age of Wonder, Age of Possibility.  Bonus: a bit of philosophy from Mike Tyson.

    About Terence:

    Terence Mauri, one of the world's leading experts and keynote speakers on Leadership, AI and Disruption, inspires and motivates teams to thrive in ever-changing contexts. Thinkers50 has described Terence as 'an influential and outspoken thinker on the future of leadership.'

    Terence is a MIT Entrepreneur Mentor, a visiting Professor at IE Business School, the Founder of Hack Future Lab, and a 5X Bestselling Author that has been seen in Inc., Forbes, Business Insider, and more.

    Prior to his current role, he was a managing director for one of the world’s largest advertising agencies working with clients such as American Express, JP Morgan and Apple, and emerged as a battle tested director who understands the challenges of turning volatility into value creation.

    Learn more at TerenceMauri.com.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    SUBSCRIBE TO OUR RSS FEED: https://feeds.captivate.fm/the-action-catalyst/

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Adam Outland
    Today's guest is Terence Mauri, a global expert on the future of leadership, AI and disruption. He is the founder of the future trends think tank, Hack Future Lab, and also an acclaimed author. Mauri spearheads a movement for leaders to rethink leadership in a post AI world. His newest book is called The Upside of Disruption. It's out right now. Terence, great to meet you.

    Terence Mauri
    Thank you so much, Adam for inviting me.

    Adam Outland
    Absolutely. Well, listen, there's so many amazing present things to ask you about in terms of your work and the work you're doing this moment. But one of the things I always love hearing about from people who have generated a lot of success in life in their different paths, is their their roots and their beginnings.

    Terence Mauri
    You know, the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard said that life is best lived forwards, but is best understood backwards. And I can really relate to that. I had my whole life and career mapped out in a very linear way. But as as another famous philosopher, Mike Tyson, once said, you can have the best laid plans until somebody punches you in the mouth, and this is what happened to me. So I had a successful career management consultancy. Things were going well. I was making good progress. One day, I walked into a store, it was in the middle of the day, and a car driver lost control and drove a car into the store. He mounted the car. It was actually a terrible accident. Nobody lost their lives that day, but many people were injured, including myself. I woke up under the car in the store with the wheel of the car still going, burning my legs. It was one of those kind of accidents where your life flashes past. You spent a number of weeks in hospital, and you know when you have time to think when you're out of the building, that's when you you get to reflect at a deeper level. And you know, for me, I really sort of it was a reawakening. I connected with, reconnected, actually, with, you know, my values, legacy, who I was, who I who I was becoming. And I realized there was a gap. There was a gap between who I wanted to become and what I was doing right now in the world of management consultancy, which is a very transactional world, a very profitable world, but I wanted to pivot to a transformational world, a world where actually, I could bring my life and my values to life in a visceral way and visible way as well. So that happened about 20 years ago, and since then, I've been on a mission, a higher mission, to inspire leaders around the world ranging from NGO and non for profit to S, p5 100, to harness the upside of disruption. What I mean by that is, you know, sort of turning disruption. It could be career disruption, technology, disruption, industry, disruption, life, disruption, whatever the disruption is, big or small, life changing or professional. How do we turn that into a tailwind or a platform for focus, laser light, focus and strategic courage and a more sustainable values driven life.

    Adam Outland
    There's a lot of risk in going out and doing something on your own, so I guess what kind of process did you go through?

    Terence Mauri
    I think it's such a great question. It's what I call a catalytic question, and it's a question that we should all be thinking about, because our relationship with risk is often not a good one. Our appetite for risk taking is often squeezed out of us like a lemon from an early age. By the age we leave college, you know, we're risk averse, and then we've got this paradox of companies now demanding that we're all courageous risk takers, and it's there's a big rhetoric to reality gap there. And for me, I think that accident reconfigured my relationship with risk, that you know life is inherently risky. You can you can die at any moment. Basically the worst thing we can do is actually not take any risk, because being addicted to certainty can make us feel comfortable. But if that certainty is also causing a stagnation or inertia, we're not learning anymore. We're not moving anymore. We're accept accepting a status quo that's not healthy or does not giving us happiness. Well, that's not a good place to be, and we know that if you look at different statistics around the world, whether it's the game. Develop engagement survey. I mean, that hasn't changed for decades. Now, majority of the global workforce disengaged, but still go to work, but have mentally quit the job, right? You know, life is short, like we're lucky. We get about 960, months to live, which is just 80 years of age. And when you think of it that way, when I frame it that way, it's not to make people feel scared. It's this idea that it's never been easier to waste time and waste energy, because this is the age of abundance. Also, we have technology that's incredible, but technology can make the trivial seem urgent. Think about when you look at your day, reacting to emails all the day, everything seems exciting and urgent. Probably less than 5% is actually important. So I think for me, what it did was a couple of things. Number one, it was a great reawakening, and it helped me to reconnect with the idea that not taking a risk is a risk sometimes. Number two, that actually the world will always be uncertain, will always be volatile, and risk and reward always come together, wrapped together. We forget that risk and will reward travel in that same elevator, and sometimes we forget that actually, you know this idea that we always overestimate the risk of trying something new could be a new way of working. It could be taking a career break. It could be applying for a new job and a new sector, whatever it is, we always overestimate the risk of doing something new, and we always underestimate the risk of standing still.

    Adam Outland
    I love that. You founded a Hack Future Lab, which is focused on future trends as a think tank. How do you define disruption?

    Terence Mauri
    Disruption, for me, is a secular and structural here to stay, inflection point. But there's different types of disruptors out there. If we look at mega trends, for example, we've got optimizer reality that's moving from doing AI to being AI. That means, for example, five to five we're moving from IT spending as a percentage of global GDP, moving from five to 10% over the next seven years to optimize reality. That's a big here to stay, disruption that will impact and reshape and redefine value creation, but also redefine completely new industries and companies. Another example would be decarbonization, the whole the whole transition to the green economy around the world. So these are big bang disruptions, but if we take it down to a more granular level, you know, disruption can also be a family disruption. It could be a divorce, a sudden death. Could be a career type disruption. But actually, how we deal with them? I think it's this kind of point of view that asking this question, how do I turn these disruptors into platforms, into tailwinds? You know, how do we turn these into upside.

    Adam Outland
    It's a great skill to have for anyone, but in particular for leaders, I feel like to be able to recognize that every obstacle has inside of itself the key to its own solution.

    Terence Mauri
    I think so. I think constraints are often opportunities in disguise. You know, for example, Hermes, the global luxury company, one of the big constraints facing, you know, the fashion industry is this, you know, the idea that they're not sustainable business models. They waste a lot of a lot of money. They've got high carbon dioxide emissions. So for Hermes, what they've done is turn that constraint into upside by creating new strategic partnerships with biotech companies. They develop and kind of produce mycelium, which is a non leather based form of leather. It's kind of like a mushroom based type of leather, alternative to leather. And the big, the kind of big, audacious goal at Hermes now is that at least half its global revenues will be mycelium based leather by 2030 now, that wouldn't have happened without turning a disruption into a tailwind.

    Adam Outland
    So you know, one of the big disruptors that we keep hearing that's AI. So how are you seeing leaders react to AI? And how can we best harness this trend without getting caught up in it?

    Terence Mauri
    I think it's helpful to take a historical perspective first of all. So we go back to 1956 Professor Marvin Minsky, for example. He was one of the pioneers of AI. And originally it was going to be called Applied Statistics, but that wasn't sexy enough. I think there are three kind of time horizons to be aware of. So the first one was excitement phase. It took chat GBT two months to reach 100 100 million users. It took the cell phone 16 years to reach 100 million users. And so the excitement phase, I think, has happened over the last couple of years, especially, we've seen over a trillion dollars of CapEx going. To AI infrastructure, over two $50 billion of VC money as well. That's going up exponentially. So at that excitement phase, we've now moved to the experimental phase, for example, T Mobile and open aI have just formed a partnership for a sort of proactive AI decision in making model that will be able to proactively help solve customers pain points. You know, three phases. Number one, excitement phase, exuberance. Excitement. Number two is the experimental phase that I believe we're in right now. The next phase, the next horizon, which we'll be entering over the next 18 months, is the embedded phase, and that's where, you know, actually AI eventually will be just become invisible. Every great technology, if it's truly great, should be invisible. It'll be embedded in our cell phones, in our toothbrushes, in our TVs. A trillion sensor economy connected together, amplifying intelligence, cross pollination, helping tackle some of the world's biggest existential challenges, from climate change to healthcare. And we're at the embryonic stage of that. But you it doesn't take much imagination to to think about where we're going with this over the next couple of years, that the the sort of cost of production, the cost of knowledge production, is going to reach zero in the next 15 years. It would take you a lifetime to read 8 billion words. Now imagine that you know the fastest AI today can can do that in the blink of an eye, and again, we can start to see the exponential opportunity of this platform. But I want to say as well that we have to be careful of artificial idiocy. Am I investing in warm AI or cold AI? So warm AI is humanity first AI? It's a humanity first future enabled by AI. It maximizes, elevates what makes us more human, and it protects Well, being, loneliness, democracy, truth and transparency. That's warm. Ai, the bad news is right now, most governments, most organizations, are not investing in warm. Ai, they're investing in cold. AI, cold. AI is machine first future enabled by AI. It elevates division, disinformation, truth decay, it erodes well being. And so that's the difference. Are we investing in a warm tech future or a cold tech future?

    Adam Outland
    For so many of our listeners that are business owners themselves. You talk about the return on intelligence, what are some things leaders can do to prepare their organizations for AI and adopt it effectively?

    Terence Mauri
    What a great question. I think, the question every leader, every manager, should be thinking about right now, which is to use AI in the right way and an inclusive way, sustainable way, in a way that sharpens the growth and talent agenda. We should be thinking about ROI, which is not just return on investment, but this new human centric KBI, key behavior indicator, which is return on intelligence, return on imagination. Imagine a cognitively enabled enterprise where your talent gets to solve the biggest problems, the biggest challenges that it faces. That means 10x productivity, 10x engagement, 10x execution. We know that that's not the reality for most organizations right now. I just had an article published a few weeks ago in Fast Company called the rise of bore out, which is the opposite of burnout. Bore out is cognitive or emotional under load. It's boredom at work, and it's at record levels. And so if AI is just doing parts of the job which we're already doing, and what we're left with is other boring parts of the job that's not return on intelligence. And so that's a big question. We should be using AI to speak to insight, speak to innovation, speed to decision, velocity for creating new scenarios, new you know, new products, new services, new platforms, testing out hypotheses. You know, it's a generative tool. The clue is in the name, but my worry is that many C suite are just looking at AI to automate, to make cost savings and to just focus on a very narrow metric, which is shareholder return.

    Adam Outland
    Sure. This is just maybe a quick question for you. Is a form of disruption, to disrupt technology by being more in person?

    Terence Mauri
    Yes, I think so. I really think so. Because, as I said, when the cost of this technology is coming to zero and everybody has access to the same tools, the same technologies, it's more difficult to stand out. Ironically, everyone's got access. Everyone can set up the great website, the great. Podcast, the great YouTube channel, but how do you stand out? The value of that goes down. This is one of the ironies, and I think a lot of people don't think about that. And it's there's a reason why naught point naught. 1% of people make money on Spotify or tick tock or YouTube, and that number is even going down more. We've got to be so careful. I call it the curse of sameness. Write about it a lot in the new book, The upside disruption. So yes, ironically, sharpening your human edge, your in person edge, is going to be the superpower that differentiates you. Gives you that distinctive quality in the sea of sameness and sea of commoditization that we're in, and that's why making the effort to go to these in person events, speaking at them, contributing to them, panels. This is a part, an important part, of the human edge. Yes, use the tools around us. You'd be stupid not to. But don't think that it's going to be easy just doing it that way. Yes, there'll be a percentage that managed to do it. But my fear is that when everything come comes to zero cost. Everyone has access to the same incredible tools. Well, actually it's much more difficult to stand out and so that in person, human edge, the that social skills, emotional intelligence, conversational listening, being fully present. These going to be important. Human skills, human skills, Courage skills, these are the skills that we need to nurture and sharpen for the next generation.

    Adam Outland
    What walls have you encountered in building something? I love allowing our listeners insight that when you choose to take a risk, that it doesn't necessarily mean a pathway paved in gold, it comes with a lot of potholes.

    Terence Mauri
    I love that question because disruption is about humility. And what I mean by humility is the ability to the capacity, the awareness to know your blind spots, to be aware of the blind spots that you're blind to, but also understanding that failure and setback and obstacle is one half of of success. And as Ryan Holiday says so eloquently, you know, the obstacle is the way, disruption is the way. And you know, I'm a self confessed failure pioneer. Yeah, I failed multiple times in order to get where I am today, multiple setbacks, multiple rejections, book rejections, client rejections. You know, 30% of what I do is keynotes conferences around the world. But you know often you're you're, you know, when you're chosen, you're, you've been chosen out of like maybe five or six or eight other great speakers. So you get rejected a lot. You know, 90% of the time it's a rejection. Now I could choose two ways to respond to that. I could say, one, I'm going to give up because I'm good. You know, my ratio of rejection is so high, so I'm just not going to do that. Or two, recognize that actually anything worthwhile in life requires resilience, requires persistence, requires grit, and that's been the big lesson for me. I'm here because I've overcome probably more failures than the average person, and that's been painful, but I've made pain part of the process and understand that if I'm not hurting, I'm not growing.

    Adam Outland
    You know I just want to spend one more minute on this; people, and their relationship to risk is that they don't understand that a lot of life can be, a little bit like a game of baseball, and that if you're batting 20 to 30% it's good batting average.

    Terence Mauri
    Yeah.

    Adam Outland
    Most of life, we're not trained to embrace rejection or misses or missed swings that way we're treated. We treat it as an ultimate failure, which then generally means I'm not good enough.

    Terence Mauri
    Yes.

    Adam Outland
    For you, where did this light switch flip? Or where do you? Where could you trace it back to say, this is the moment where I kind of changed my relationship to failure?

    Terence Mauri
    I think it goes back to that life disruption, life or death moment, life flashing past you, which you realize you can have your whole life that mapped out that linear way become obsessed with success and avoidance of failure, and that's not real life. You know, being stripped down and being made very vulnerable, nearly losing my life, actually was the wake up call to me that, you know, we've life is about. Life is risk. And actually the biggest regret, one of the things to help our listeners and viewers today is when you get to the end of your life, and I hope it's a long life, 8090, years of age, or 100 the number one regret, according to research, is a lack of courage. That when you look back, the biggest regret you'll have in your lives, when you look back at your 90 years will be the amount of times that you didn't you didn't step up. The lack of courage, the courage to think bit bolder, the courage to say no, the courage to walk away from something that wasn't working for you, to courage to start over. This is our number one regret at the end of our lives, and we can use this knowledge in advance of getting to 90 years of age to our advantage and do what you know. Steve, Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos used to do very well, which is regret minimization. To get to imagine that you're 70 years old and say, what would I regret most not doing when I look back? Is it not having kids? Is it not starting that business? Is it not, you know, yeah, hitting that C level in my company. Whatever it is, success is very personal. But just remember, you know, at the end of our lives, the number one regret is a lack of courage. And actually, one half of courage is the ability to embrace failure and recognize that that is a stepping stone to where you want to be. It's not necessary. And of course, there are different types of failures as well. By the way, productive failures, intelligent failures, stupid failures. So we have to be careful here as well and understand the nuances. But the one thing to take away is we need to reframe our relationship with productive failure and recognize that it's also an important part of success.

    Adam Outland
    What do you think when you are spending time as an entrepreneur mentor for MIT, or you're you know, you're speaking at some universities and engaging with this next generation that's coming out, what do you see there? Do you see a group of young women and men that are have that new definition of failure? Or do you feel we need to be able to manufacture somehow, for some of these people, maybe not a life threatening situation, but something that that shakes them up in how they perceive what we're discussing?

    Terence Mauri
    What I love about Generation Alpha is this incredible vision aspirational, and I think it's very nuanced, the culturally context and culture demographics, whether it's Africa or North America or Europe, there's a different risk appetite out there depending on geography, and so that's that's a big deal. But the good news is, it can be unlearned and relearned as well, for sure. And what I love about my work at MIT is every year we host MIT solve, and the purpose of MIT solve is to create a generation of solvers. We post Grand Challenges, global challenges that the world faces, for example, climate change, lack of literacy, healthcare challenges, and we give people anywhere in the world, the opportunity to pitch tech based solutions to those global challenges, and one of those examples recently was for people with Alzheimer's. There was a young student called Emma Yang. Her grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, or dementia. It's a terrible disease. One in seven people will get it in their lifetime. And you know, being a very an introvert and a mathematician, she framed this as a hypothesis, and she created an app called Timeless. The purpose of the app timeless is to help people with dementia stay reconnected to their memories, reconnected to their families through geo tagging, facial recognition gamification, received over a million dollars of wealth of investment since she since inception. This is a great example of generations solve. This is a great example of what can happen when the cost you imagine, the costs of doing this 10 years ago, would have been prohibited. It would cost millions of dollars to set up an app and test it, scale it. Now, you can do all of this. You can go from idea to iteration to implementation within hours or days, and obviously that's accelerated even more with AI. So for me, this is not the age of disruption, by the way. This is the age of wonder, the age of possibility, and the only limit is our imagination.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, I was at a longevity dinner, and it was very interesting to hear people talk about how quickly and exponentially medical and health disruption is occurring, and that the key takeaway from this speaker was that if you can live 10 more years, you'll solve most of your problems that you'll have in the future, and probably add another 20 to your life.

    Terence Mauri
    It's so exciting, isn't it? Ray Kurzweil, Singularity University has written a book recently where he really deep dives into this as well. And you know, I was in Doha big you know, future of tech, future of AI Summit, and you know, just some of the stats, you know, the facts and insights coming out are so exciting. This idea that, you know, we've now got, you know, chips that are the it can be scaled to DNA, and they can hold billions of transistors. That's actually happening. It's not, it's not science fiction. So science fiction has become science flag. And I think you're right. If we can hold on for at least another time, 10 years, it's going to be one hell of a ride.

    Adam Outland
    And stay tuned. We'll continue this conversation with Terence in Episode 479 of The Action Catalyst.

    " target="_blank">

Master the Game Within, with Patrick McAndrew – Episode 477 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

  • Posted by Action Catalyst
  • On January 21, 2025
  • 0 Comments
  • Adam Outland, Business, CEO, coaching, confidence, engagement, entrepreneur, fear, focus, high performance, leadership, motivation, success
Patrick McAndrew, a seasoned entrepreneur and high-performance coach, and the Founder/CEO of HARA, talks about living inside of an art gallery, how speed reading paved the way for a new career, the things that often get mistaken for lack of motivation, finding fear at the top, where confidence really comes from, breaking the loop of […]
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  • Patrick McAndrew, a seasoned entrepreneur and high-performance coach, and the Founder/CEO of HARA, talks about living inside of an art gallery, how speed reading paved the way for a new career, the things that often get mistaken for lack of motivation, finding fear at the top, where confidence really comes from, breaking the loop of distraction, and why engagement doesn’t necessarily equal value.

    About Patrick:

    Patrick McAndrew's experience as an entrepreneur and high-performance coach has taught him that the path to success starts with mastering oneself.

    Whether working with corporate leaders or entrepreneurs, Patrick has helped countless individuals escape the ‘Productivity Paradox’ and create something extraordinary.

    As the Founder & CEO of HARA, Patrick focuses on developing the whole person, guiding visionaries to align their actions with their deepest values, cultivating unwavering focus and resilience, and achieving extraordinary impact.

    Patrick has a wealth of experience in creating successful ventures that merge cutting-edge technology with deep human insight. He founded The Bowery Common, an audio marketing agency that produced campaigns for major brands like Spotify, as well as Momentum Mind Academy, a corporate training program that helped organizations and individuals sharpen their focus and attention.

    A sought-after speaker for firms like Pacific Life, Lincoln Financial, and Alliance Bernstein, Patrick has guided top banks through the conversation of human performance in the digital age. He has also served as a speed reading and memorization coach for Iris Reading, teaching programs to top investment banks like Bessemer Trust, Northern Trust, and Raging Capital. Through his speaking, coaching, and leadership at HARA, Patrick empowers entrepreneurs and leaders to break free from distracting habits, cultivate authentic presence, and create lives of meaning, purpose, and impact.

    At the heart of Patrick's work is a deep passion for helping people reclaim their attention and agency in an increasingly tech-driven world. He believes that true success comes from cultivating a strong connection to our human essence, even as we navigate the challenges and opportunities of the digital age. Patrick's approach is informed by his extensive training with world-class movement practitioners like Ido Portal and Jozef Frucka, as well as his deep study of mindfulness, neuroscience, and peak performance. He brings a unique blend of cutting-edge insights and timeless wisdom to everything he does, inspiring individuals to embrace vulnerability, empathy, and genuine human connection as the keys to unlocking their full potential. Whether he's working with top executives at Fortune 500 companies or entrepreneurs building the next generation of innovative startups, Patrick is dedicated to creating a world where technology serves our deepest human needs, rather than the other way around. His message is a wake-up call for anyone who wants to lead with authenticity, purpose, and impact in the 21st century.

    Learn more at PatrickMcAndrew.co.

    The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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    (Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

    Adam Outland
    Today's guest is Patrick McAndrew, a seasoned entrepreneur and high performance coach and the founder and CEO of Hara, an exclusive membership community and network for the top 1% of entrepreneurs and business leaders. Patrick has a wealth of experience that merges cutting edge technology with deep human insight. Then we're excited to talk to him. Well, Patrick, so excited to chat with you today. You're coaching and providing a lot of value to, you say that kind of the 1% of the 1% in business. So if I somehow stumbled upon you in secondary school and I said, Patrick, what do you what do you want to be when you grow up? What would a secondary school Patrick have shared?

    Patrick McAndrew
    I think at that time it was, it depends. If it was like a beginning of secondary school. I think I wanted to be an actor. If it was the middle of the time in secondary school, I wanted to be I wanted to have a talk show. I wanted to host a talk show.

    Adam Outland
    Were you already like planning and thinking of coming to the states, where you want to build a career in Ireland, or what was that even floating through your mind at that time?

    Patrick McAndrew
    Well, I always, I always was very taken by the US and this New York in particular, where I lived for five years, and it was sort of hung over my head. But if you do well enough on these exams, Patrick, my mom would say, taking a trip to New York. But that trip to New York never manifested. The first time I came to the States, I think I was maybe 19, and we came on a family trip, and we went to Clearwater Beach for Christmas. And as you can imagine, the United States was New York in my mind, like that was the country that there was no sense or curiosity about the others. And I remember driving from Tampa to Clearwater, and I had never seen things like strip malls, and they're the most foreign, alien looking thing ever, like seeing Dunkin Donuts and Wendy's and Burger King, but all in these, just sort of these, these parallel units alongside a road. And I remember thinking, This doesn't look like the impression that I had of this country at all. So I have to start to come to terms to realize that there, there are different parts of this country and and they all hold different characters.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, yeah, a lot, a lot of drywall pre fabrication, not a lot of stone cathedrals that were modernized.

    Patrick McAndrew
    Indeed. Yeah.

    Adam Outland
    Walk me through a little bit of your time at Ireland after that, I mean going to school, developing what were things that you started to gravitate to as you, as you matured and aged up, and how did that influence the direction you were headed?

    Patrick McAndrew
    I think there's always just been a tendency just to follow curiosities. So when I was in college, I studied law, but I had a radio show. I also worked in the regional radio station as a sound engineer. So I would be there during the live shows, and I would be turning on the the ads and fading in the music and all that stuff and meeting the guests. And there was something there. There was something about conversing and meeting people. I grew up in a home where there was constantly people coming through, whether it was people traveling from around the world coming to stay with us, or eccentric characters that my mom had come across, or she had an employment agency for a large number of years. The nurses that would be coming into Ireland, they would stay with us for a few days before they would go to the nursing home at the hospital where they were going to work. So we would sort of like take care of them, because they would be homesick and get them settled. She also had a jewelry business where she made bespoke engagement rings for couples. So there was a room in the house where they would come in and they would be presented. They would they would come in to design the engagement ring they wanted. And then my mom would take the design and go to Antwerp and get it made. And then they would come back and she would have a bottle of champagne, and we would see the joy, and we would maybe have a meal with them and talk with them. You know that that sort of nature, that could very convivial nature, was was very normal in my household growing up. So there was always different cultures, different characters. And I growing up as a young kid, growing up, grew up in London before I moved to Ireland, and for a number of years. And during that time in London, I actually lived in a gallery. So my parents had had rented the flat that they had in London and then took out a lease on this gallery to manage the expenses of it all. They built drywall, and they built rooms within the gallery which were never there was just a big open space, and they built like a little apartment and a home at the back. And when I would leave my bedroom, I would walk out onto the gallery. So when I would come home from school, I would I would enter in through a gallery to get to my room. And when I was there, and my mom was she didn't really have many staff. So if there was a lot of people coming through as a five year old or a six year old, it was my role to to guide them around and show them the pieces of glass and the pieces of art and. And keep them entertained for a few minutes until my mom could speak to them. So all of that, I think, the the way of observing and engaging with people had sort of been inherent to to my my lived experience. We also had the most travel man in the world stay with us for a few days. I don't know if he still holds that title, but he did at that time. He had been traveling for 24 years, and Ireland was the last country on his world tour. So I came home from school one day and my mom was at the kitchen table chatting with this guy, and she said, this is Mike Patrick. I think I was telling you about him. He's the most traveled man in the world. I heard him on the radio three days ago. I sent a text into the station and said, if you're coming to Galway and you need somewhere to say, just let me know. And he called her up on the phone. He said, Hey, is this Julia? And she said, Yeah. He said, It's Mike. I've just arrived into Galway bus station. Is that offer still standing to stay with you for a few days? And she said, absolutely. So we got to hang out with him for three or four days. And he had been in Somalia. He had been in Mogadishu. He was one of the first tourists there in a very long time. He was in the town across he had not very far away from in Iraq, where Osama bin Laden had been captured. He traveled through Afghanistan. He had been all over, you know, but places that you rarely hear about. He was a quirky character, for sure, but it was interesting conversations with him.

    Adam Outland
    I can only imagine, and what a cool exposure that you got to diversity through your own home with all these people coming through. So fast forward from this, you've become a sought after speaker. What led to that type of work exactly?

    Patrick McAndrew
    Well it started out with speed reading. So I was teaching speed reading memorization workshops around the country. I was going into schools and colleges and companies like Bessemer trust, Northern Trust, quite a few hedge funds and investment banks, helping these people improve how they processed and retained information. And that was a very interesting experience, because I realized, you know, if you want to pay, I don't know what is it? It's somewhere in the region, like 160 or 180,000 for for an MBA at Columbia University, I got to go in and see those people in that room. Amazing networking, amazing conceptual frameworks and models and ways of thinking about business. But so much of business is about your own internal game. You know, the actual dynamics of business are not that difficult. There are problems which need to be solved Absolutely, and problems keep arising. But what's the challenge there? Well, the inherent challenge is, is the capacity to sustain change and the capacity to be malleable and adaptive. I think that's that's what our unique capacity as human beings are. Is this capacity to mutate, to be one way and then to recognize that the environment has changed, I must mutate into another way, but yet I can retain my true essence. I don't lose myself under the conditions of the environment. I maintain myself, but I'm not bound to this identity. I'm good at this or I like this, so therefore I'm only going to try and find a business that operates on the fundamentals of me being very good at doing stuff on a computer, but I don't want to interact with people in person. Well, I've just cut off so much opportunity to myself. So maybe if I can develop certain develop certain qualities of how I engage with others, much more will show for me. So I saw in all of these environments that I went into that these people are learning a lot of information, but it's not taking them so far because they're not learning about themselves. In fact, they're neglecting themselves. They're only trying to develop this 10% area which it feels like it's directly relevant to business, but there's this other 90% which determines your clarity, your conviction, your essence, your value, your sense of self worth. And if you're clear on all of that, you can achieve a whole lot more, and you can feel content, and you can feel like your whole life is is in alignment. It doesn't feel like it's so fragmented. So I began on that journey by teaching people about focus, because that was the thing. Through my exposure to different environments of teaching speed reading, I realized, wow, okay, these people that I'm meeting, they're very driven. They're not lacking motivation. Yet, companies are spending, you know, 1000s, 10s of 1000s every conference for a motivational speaker that people don't need motivation. They've plenty. They've plenty drive. What they lack is a pragmatic sense of how to organize themselves. They're missing internal structure. It's pretty chaotic in there. So the first place that I approached was focus, because I thought that people needed help focus, which they did. But then over years and years of doing that, working with Pacific Life, Lincoln, financial, Morgan, Stanley, all these companies, I realized, okay, I can teach you how to focus, and I can make you very good at doing the tasks efficiently, but there's a deeper problem there. There's a much deeper problem, and it's your capacity to regulate yourself. It's your capacity to actually regulate and relate to yourself, and that's actually more of the foundational layer that causes a lot of the problems, leadership problems, strategic problems. There's a company I got called in to work with last November. They had 26 primary initiatives.

    Adam Outland
    That word primary, and 26 initiatives…

    Patrick McAndrew
    And 26. Yeah, it's not, it's not all aligning. But where is that coming from? That's not coming from the fact that these people aren't intelligent enough. It's actually coming from more of a place that their whole emotional state is so scattered and so fragmented because they don't feel safe and secure in their work. They're unsure about this industry. It's going through such rapid change, like many are, so a lot of the problems that are appearing across the company is a totality in the individuals within it, much more about an internal thing that's happening. And a lot of my work previously was building fundamental qualities in people so that they could improve their reading and their memory and their focus, so that they could actually start to take action. But now I'm sort of interested in working with people who have no issue taking action, who have no issue getting things done, but yet, there's a barrier. There's some sort of an internal block that's confusing. Either they have developed far beyond the business and the business is not catching up to them, so it feels like it's out of alignment. Or the business has developed far beyond them, and they've been pouring so much into the business, but as an individual, they're still quite underdeveloped in comparison to the demands of the business. So how do we calibrate these two and if we do, means that things move a lot more smoothly, and they progress much more in the right direction.

    Adam Outland
    My experience with a lot of these types of individuals who found a significant amount of in a comparative success in their their business or their practice, to be at the level I think we're talking about is that they have to have a lot of self confidence in specifically what they're doing, meaning that they've developed somewhat of a ego. And I don't mean they're all egoists, that they are dominated by it, but I find that a lot of them have to have gotten what they had. They have to have a certain amount of self worth and self value that they've crested over to accomplish things of a magnitude. And with that sometimes comes some defensiveness around change, or a defensiveness of them that maybe not verbalizing this, but I'm imagined you've maybe heard at some point, Patrick, you don't you don't know my business. You don't know what we're doing. So how do you how do you overcome that?

    Patrick McAndrew
    I don't see a lot of self confidence. I see a huge amount of fear. I see a lot of people who where their fuel source is coming from, growing up in poverty, and they never want to be in that environment again, or feeling maybe once again poverty, but feeling trapped, feeling like they didn't have choice. So what they want is they want money that's going to give them the freedom to choose. There was a gentleman that I spoke with not so long ago, and I asked him, if you were to kind of look outside of yourself, what do you orbit? And for this gentleman, it was money and power. He was able to say it very quickly that that's what it was. He was very accomplished, but he was extremely exhausted, but he couldn't seem to stop his relentless pursuit of whatever he seemed to be pursuing. And it was more money and more power. Now, as our conversation progressed, at the root of it, he just wanted some love and self acceptance. It this is not bad. This is, this is, this is fine. It's, it's part of the development of the human being and of the psyche. We come from a place of pain, and we try to transmute that pain into something that will take us forward, because we don't want it to hold us back. So maybe we develop another character. We develop this man or this woman who's able to amass money or power, and now people are drawn to us because of the money and the power or the knowledge or the capacity to get things done or to help things in the community. And now people value you and see you for these qualities and these capacities. But underneath that, as soon as that is taken away the business or taking action every day, there's a huge amount of insecurity. There's a huge amount of insecurity, and that causes a huge amount of pain and limitation on the business that ends up getting created because the ego and the identity of the person who found that it is so interwoven with the actions or what that business reflects about them that they're trying to keep it in a way that keeps their identity the way they want it to be. So what ends up happening is that our identity gets reduced to our biography. You know, you you got a biography on me. People at the beginning of the show heard about me. I'm not that. I'm not that. If I were to describe myself as that, it would feel like it's another person. But yet, we need certain terms and containers to explain it. So you're a coach, okay, great. Now I get a sense of who you are, but you're so much more than that. You're bringing your whole lived experience into it. So it's fine to have these sort of monikers of who we are as people, because we need that to make allow people to have a reference point of who we are and what we do. But my days, it's very dangerous if you think that you are, that if you allow your identity become wrapped up in that, you become very weak. And I, from what I see, there's, there's very little self confidence, there's a lot of survival, even no matter how many millions you have in the bank. And I It doesn't have to be that way.

    Adam Outland
    Yeah, interesting.

    Patrick McAndrew
    And I would say, from my observation, I would say confidence is a sort of emergent thing. You don't craft confidence. Confidence sort of emerges and it merges through your view of yourself, and the evidence that this, this view of yourself, is being reinforced. So you can also be very confident that you can't do something you know you it's it's a certainty. It's a certainty of something. It's a certainty of your capabilities and your powers, which can be that it's a certainty that you can move towards something, or it's equally a certainty that you cannot. And. Because it's been evidenced so many times before. So my interest more so is because there's many environments that I go into with very little confidence that I can do it, but I have confidence that I can find a way. I have confidence that I'll be able to be in the the uncertainty or the discomfort of it, and I'll move through it, because that's something that I have evidence of, I'm much more interested in, I suppose, expanding people's sense of value and worth beyond just their actions. So for example, something that we're going to be launching relatively soon with Hara, which I now realize is so needed and so important is so many of the companies that I speak to, whether it's the CEO or it's an intern, are feeling immensely overwhelmed. Now, this overwhelm is coming because of the the amount of information and the amount of things that we feel that we should know, the amount of communication. There was one gentleman that I spoke with in Dallas at a conference couple of weeks ago, and he told me he gets about 480 emails a day like that's such an insane quantity that's that's beyond a full time job just filtering through that every day. But why does this happen? Why are these tools that were meant to liberate us and free us through the work that was most important? Why are they becoming the things that are holding everybody back? Because it's, it's a total distraction. Now, you could say it's in the design, and there's a truth to that. There's a design of a desire for engagement. That's how these products measure their value, not how little time you spend on them, but how much time you spend on them, how much information flows through them. But I don't think it's enough to just place the blame on the product and the tool. There's something deeper that's happening here, and it's it's actually much more related to a sense of social security. And I've been watching this, and it's only become clear to me very much. So in the last five or six months, if we just look at distributed teams, for example, where you've got, let's just say, a couple of people in Omaha, Nebraska, there's a company that I work with. I have a few people there, and then you have others which are dotted around the country, but their boss and their direct report is there in Omaha, and they get to meet up with each other two or three, maybe four times a year at conferences. Sometimes they get 15, 20 minutes. If it's 20 minutes, 25 minutes as a one on one chat. That feels like it's enormous, but most the time it's in a group setting, so the conversation is more about the collective like, what are we all talking about? The person that I'm reporting to doesn't really know me, doesn't really know my true character. They see the analytics of what I do based on the metrics of what comes in, but as a person who I am, as human being, they don't know me because they haven't had much time with me. I've given leadership teams this this challenge to spend 45 minutes with their direct reports just on one call, and I've given them questions to ask which are much more deep about like who they really are as human beings. And they learn so much about them and realize that their assumptions of what motivated and drove them is so different to what it was. So that's a norm that people are not really getting to see each other. Now, if I'm in New Mexico and my direct report is in Omaha, Nebraska, I see him or her three or four times a year. My promotion, how much more I'm going to earn next year, or maintaining my job, is dependent on their view of me, how they see me. So how can I prove myself? I make sure I do I succeed as much as I can in the realm of the metrics, and I also make sure that I am as responsive as possible in my emails and my communication and showing that I'm on, because by showing that I'm on and that I'm hyper responsive, it's a display in the best way possible that I'm committed and that I'm a worthy human being, and that's what's happening more and more, is that we're not engaging deeply with each other. So the context of how much we understand of each other is very low. So we invest a lot more of our energy into those low context transmissions of communication, which creates this very fragmented and distracted state. Because to be not distracted and fragmented is to choose for yourself, is to choose where you're going to direct your energy, where you see that there's things happening outside. But you downgrade their importance, because you upgrade the importance of what you want to do and what you see is important. But for the vast majority of people I meet, they've completely downgraded to level zero their importance of what they want and how they want to direct their lives or their business or their day, and they completely upgrade the importance of everything that's happening around them, that's coming in because they don't want to miss a thing, because if they do, it might threaten their job. It might threaten their sense of how they're perceived by their boss. And if that's not met and if that's not worked on, I can offer as much content and information about how the brain works and how to organize yourself, but it won't make a difference, because the human beings are in a very survivalist very survivalistic state, and that's driving the show, not the rational mind, but a very, very emotional, unsure, unsecure internal state.

    Adam Outland
    Reminds me of a book called Tribal Leadership. I don't know if you've read this, but I think you'd like it. There's, you know, a category of stages that the Stanford professor observed in different culture and communities, the lowest level was like the kind you see in prisons, which is like defined by the affirmation, My life sucks. That was the way they had to write it and put it. They didn't see the way out. And then the second tier, it becomes a little bit less, My life sucks, and it. They can see others have it great. It's My Life sucks, but other people have it great. There's someone near them that's succeeding, probably a manager or a leader. And then level three is I'm great, but you're not. And this is prolific in the corporate world, lawyers, doctors and in order to be the greatest, they can't have competition in their office, right? It's always proving it's a survivalist. And then level four is we are great, and Level Five is Life is great. And there are very few companies that operate at that level. But just kind of connecting these dots in my head, as I hear you talk, it's, it's a little bit of that, am I hearing this somewhat, right?

    Patrick McAndrew
    Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because I think, I think we've been given these incredible tools, which are there to support us, but they're there to support the what we have to actually develop us so that we can develop internally. Whereas I think in many circumstances, there's a regression taking place where we're completely divorcing ourselves or neglecting how we need to develop internally to meet the demands of what's being presented to us externally, and we're just sort of playing the victim to how life is playing out around us and through Hara, the work that I'm doing is, I'm fundamentally trying to show people, you have a huge amount of agency here, but you're, you're the way that you live your life is what's shaping this. If you feel like there's no space or time for that, you'll continue to suffer, and that's the truth, because you'll, you'll find that your attention is constantly going out. It's constantly about what's happening outside of you, whereas what we give people our practices and ways to develop themselves internally, because we need that every time, our whole range of evolution as we as we develop as the human species, is dependent on changes to the external environment, changes the temperature, changes to food, changes to threats, changes towards opportunities. We're being given an immense amount of comfort, and so much of the products that are being designed are around this are more primal and primitive aspects of us. So yeah, there's, there's definitely a lot that's happening here in recognizing that the world is changing around us. So how are we changing internally to rise from top, as opposed to rising to the top thinking or recognizing that we have so many of these qualities in us that are incredible.

    Adam Outland
    Oh, yeah, one of the things that you talk about is how to break the cycle of distraction. What does that look like in motion when you're working with someone?

    Patrick McAndrew
    Well, are there places that your attention is often getting brought to that you know is not serving you, yet it keeps happening, but the but then there's a reflective tendency right to observe and say, Wow, that was not where I needed to spend my time, that that was not useful to me. And so there's different states of mind that arise. So what's the observation or the thing that you notice in yourself afterwards, the things that are sort of you keep going towards, and you spend a lot of time. So if we take a bit more of an objective perspective, so you're looking at yourself from an outside body, because you're in it at the moment, and you're sort of like you're analyzing and reasoning at the same time. So if we can be just more objective, so the analysis and the reasoning is separate, where is your attention going? Where it's being wasteful. If we just look at it hard and like that, hard and fast. Because once again, I'm not of the opinion that you need to be this sense of being productive, which is bringing utility to every moment. You're building a business and you're running a business, you need clarity of mind thinking. I chatted with a guy a couple of months ago, he was joining Hara, and he was saying to me, you know, I want to map out a five year plan. If I could only find four hours to just sit down and map out a five year plan. I know how crazy that sounds. And I said, Is it crazy that you're mapping out a five year plan, or is it crazy that you think that you need four hours to map out a five year plan? He said, It's crazy that I think I need four hours I should be able to do it unless so there's this constant sense that I should be able to condense and do things very quickly, when the reality is my days. If you're going to think about a five year plan, which I personally feel is maybe it's a five year vision, but it's hard to implement a plan. You need more than four hours for that. I think it should. It should take a lot of time and self reflection. So from an objective view, where is your attention going? That feels as though it's it's wasteful, and the loop of distraction is the constant pattern of the mind. It's not. It's just the constant stay, you know, in the evening, watching TV, but also being on our phone, and then at dinner table, then at the dinner table, watching something or there, but your mind is being taken elsewhere. So whether we appreciate it or not, we might consider that we're training or we're working out when we go to the gym and we do specific things of our body, but when it comes to our character and our state of mind, we're constantly developing and shaping ourselves to better or worse if you're running a business and if you're doing something for yourself, it's your clarity and your vision that shapes everything. Because I think you know as well as I do, when the value system of the business, or as a way to generate interest, starts going through the lens of social media and posts and engagement, suddenly it can sort of. Start to get warped, that the opportunity comes from the degree of engagement. The opportunity comes from responding to what's happening in that space. But you know, I have a friend who will share the dark truth, which is he runs a business around productivity. He wanted to build more leads. He spent a day a year posting, and had a team of freelancers helping him. Built up his Instagram to 360,000 followers. The Instagram page is solely about this topic of productivity, running a digital marketing agency. Zero point point zero. 6% of his followers converted to actually purchasing his product. Wow. So it can become a trap in and of itself, where now I've lost my the direction the vision has become skewed. I'm I just saw that there was a lot of engagement on the post, so maybe we need to double down in more of those posts. And now we're getting more followers, and now we're growing the engagement. But is that tethered to the ultimate vision of the business? I from that? I mean, it's not, unless your vision is to become a content creator. You know, when you're a small business owner, you can get caught in that loop.

    Adam Outland
    What's your personal practice to remain clear? Because, as I think we both agree, it's sometimes it's easy to see than others, it's harder even for us to apply some of this thinking to ourselves at times, because it gets cloudy.

    Patrick McAndrew
    Well, a practice which has changed a lot of things is, I think I used to place too much emphasis on the market. So a lot of the businesses that I built in the past, or even the talks that I gave, was my observation of what the market needed. But in that process, you can feel like you lose yourself, because you start, you start just completely adjusting to the needs and the expectations of the market, and inherently, you end up that's it. That's That's a fast track to lose your own sense of value and worth. In the last year or year and a half, I've changed that. Where it's a it's a dance between the two. It's what is alive in me, in what I'm seeing, in what I want to pursue, and what are the needs in the market. And how can I find a way to connect the two together? So there will be people in that space who will not be ready to receive it, and there will be moments where what I articulate is not clear enough for what the market is looking for, and that creates this constant observation loop of myself and the market. So then becomes the practice of my own observation that I have to engage with.

    Adam Outland
    Having done a lot of these transformative things yourself, put them in motion for clients, what advice would you give yourself many years ago? What do you think that young version of yourself could use?

    Patrick McAndrew
    I think it would be to acknowledge uniqueness, not to be afraid of that, and then don't just try and explore that as a little thing on the side. Go right after it, go right after your appetite. That's, that's what I've done as an adult. And it's, it's, and I didn't do that much. I did it as a kid, but I also had this fear of the group and wanting to fit in with everybody else. And I think as a kid, I would have, or if I was to meet that guy, I would have told him, You see things a little bit differently, and sometimes it feels like you don't want to, because you want to see it the way everybody else does, because it can feel threatening to feel that that difference. But go there, just go there and let go of that judgment.

    Adam Outland
    What a great note to end on. Great conversation, Patrick, really enjoyed it.

    Patrick McAndrew
    Thank you, Adam, it's really been a joy to speak with you. You were a great, great host, great questions. All the best.

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