How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the cultural context of what is being written?
I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
It was deleted in no time, and the reason given? (G11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11: Unambiguous advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING or promotion) Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
Phew! FN
Hi Frederick -
I don't know how one can deal with it, but Wikipedia seems to be a gang of ignorant youngster "editors" who not only know little about any specialist subject but also nothing at all about how to deal with knowledge!
Cordially,
John V. Jackson http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا fredericknoronha@gmail.com wrote:
How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the cultural context of what is being written?
I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
It was deleted in no time, and the reason given? (G11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11: Unambiguous advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING or promotion) Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
Phew! FN
-- _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ Frederick Noronha http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in _/ P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/ Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at https://archive.org/details/goa1556 _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Thanks John. I don't intend to criticise anyone on the basis of age. Yet, to me, it seems quite problematic when someone who understands little or nothing about the cultural specificity of some distant geography goes about deleting with such speed.
Sometime back, a prominent scholar who contributed immensely to the Konkani language (a small language in coastal western India) was being dismissed as non-notable. The reason? (i) The language is still largely not digitised and (ii) even if it was, it would not be searchable via Google-type search engines.
FN
On 13 September 2016 at 22:34, John Jackson strangetruther@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Frederick -
I don't know how one can deal with it, but Wikipedia seems to be a gang of ignorant youngster "editors" who not only know little about any specialist subject but also nothing at all about how to deal with knowledge!
Cordially,
John V. Jackson http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com
Hi Frederick,
I've looked at the article (I'm an admin) and I can understand your frustration. However, it is generally the case with musicians -- no matter what the cultural context -- that several high quality sources are needed for the article to survive. You included one; were you planning to add others? If so, I think the article will survive. I'd be happy to restore the article if you intend to improve it with additional source material; and I could help a bit with that as well. Let me know.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:04 AM, John Jackson strangetruther@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Frederick -
I don't know how one can deal with it, but Wikipedia seems to be a gang of ignorant youngster "editors" who not only know little about any specialist subject but also nothing at all about how to deal with knowledge!
Cordially,
John V. Jackson http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا fredericknoronha@gmail.com wrote:
How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the cultural context of what is being written?
I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India
here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
It was deleted in no time, and the reason given? (G11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11: Unambiguous advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING or promotion) Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
Phew! FN
-- _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ Frederick Noronha http://about.me/noronhafrederick
_/ P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/ Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at https://archive.org/details/goa1556 _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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I think the article was most likely deleted for being a "sub-stub" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub#Basic_information , in that it didn't provide even the most basic information about the subject. In particular, the first line mixes present ("is") and past (a colony disbanded decades ago) making it impossible for the reader to reliably place the subject in time. Context was not misunderstood; it was simply not provided.
John Jackson, 13/09/2016 19:04:
Wikipedia seems to be a gang of ignorant youngster "editors"
FYI this stereotype has already been disproved in 2011. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Survey_2011/Executive_Summary#PROFILE
Nemo
I agree with Nemo's assessment. I would not have speedy-deleted it myself, but I do not have enough information to conclude that User:Seraphimblade was right or wrong to do so. I don't know how extensively they sought additional source material, etc. Unless somebody provides indication of sufficient source materials, it's difficult for an admin (or anybody) to assess notability, so often articles are deleted. The best way to avoid speedy deletion of a new article -- and to help the users and administrators who patrol such things to do the job well -- is to be sure that multiple high quality sources are included in the first edit, along with a clear statement of significance.
Looks like the article is well on its way now. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think the article was most likely deleted for being a "sub-stub" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub#Basic_information , in that it didn't provide even the most basic information about the subject. In particular, the first line mixes present ("is") and past (a colony disbanded decades ago) making it impossible for the reader to reliably place the subject in time. Context was not misunderstood; it was simply not provided.
John Jackson, 13/09/2016 19:04:
Wikipedia seems to be a gang of ignorant youngster "editors"
FYI this stereotype has already been disproved in 2011. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Survey_2011/Executive _Summary#PROFILE
Nemo
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
FYI I added a template to the Talk page that I "borrowed" and blanked from Lata Mangeshkar's page -- please update / customize as is helpful.
Recommend that to prevent speedy deletions - work on article on namespace/draftspace if possible - 5 to 10 (ideally) Wikilinked citations from large newspapers and articles that are in-depth features on or with subject - Infobox, even if minimally filled in, a shell is helpful - Authority control (viaf.org, etc.) - Commons template if media is available added to external links section - Discogs, AllMusic etc. templates in external links -- re-inforces notability
Recommend with new page creation that editor asks other experienced editors to look at stub before making public. Also multiple editors working on a page is ideal
Oftentimes it's the fact that the article isn't developed to the best of its potential versus notability that is the culprit with speedy deletions. We run into these a lot at the editathons here in NYC, and it's very frustrating. Sorry you had to deal with this but glad to see it seems to be up there okay now.
Best,
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle*
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with Nemo's assessment. I would not have speedy-deleted it myself, but I do not have enough information to conclude that User:Seraphimblade was right or wrong to do so. I don't know how extensively they sought additional source material, etc. Unless somebody provides indication of sufficient source materials, it's difficult for an admin (or anybody) to assess notability, so often articles are deleted. The best way to avoid speedy deletion of a new article -- and to help the users and administrators who patrol such things to do the job well -- is to be sure that multiple high quality sources are included in the first edit, along with a clear statement of significance.
Looks like the article is well on its way now. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.com
wrote:
I think the article was most likely deleted for being a "sub-stub" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub#Basic_information , in that it didn't provide even the most basic information about the subject. In particular, the first line mixes present ("is") and past (a colony disbanded decades ago) making it impossible for the reader to reliably place the subject in time. Context was not misunderstood; it was simply
not
provided.
John Jackson, 13/09/2016 19:04:
Wikipedia seems to be a gang of ignorant youngster "editors"
FYI this stereotype has already been disproved in 2011. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Survey_2011/Executive _Summary#PROFILE
Nemo
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I have undeleted it and left notes. Please add more detail and references.
Fred Bauder
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 22:26:55 +0530 Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا fredericknoronha@gmail.com wrote:
How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the cultural context of what is being written?
I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
It was deleted in no time, and the reason given? (G11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11: Unambiguous advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING or promotion) Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
Phew! FN
-- _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ Frederick Noronha http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in _/ P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/ Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at https://archive.org/details/goa1556 _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
So on what reasonable basis was it deleted in the first place, if the article stood the chance of being improved?
The funny part sometimes is, an admin causes the mess, then another admin comes rectifying it. As long as the admin who deleted the article didn't reinstate it means, that admin will go deleting another article of similar nature, then the cycle begins.
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:17 PM FRED BAUDER fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
I have undeleted it and left notes. Please add more detail and references.
Fred Bauder
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 22:26:55 +0530 Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا fredericknoronha@gmail.com wrote:
How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the cultural context of what is being written?
I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
It was deleted in no time, and the reason given? (G11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11: Unambiguous advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING or promotion) Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
Phew! FN
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