Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

And words fail me. Tony never acknowledged that advice nor gave any indication they were following it. As I've already previously noted [3], it is patently obvious that I can encourage Marine 69-71 to not participate and still call out ArbCom for acting in the manner they have. I'm sure you can understand the difference. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sure, you have been giving arbitration participants this bad advice for years, and none of them has ever benefitted from listening to it. And yet you continue to criticize ArbCom rather than reevaluate the usefulness of your advice. You know that ArbCom has a tendency to desysop those who do not participate, so why do you keep telling people not to participate? – bradv 17:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Let me suggest a different approach. @Hammersoft, you clearly disagree with how arbcom has been running things. If you want to improve the situation, put your name down at WP:ACE2024/C and help fix the problem. RoySmith (talk) 18:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Bradv; simple. Outside of a handful of cases, defending oneself at ArbCom cases has no benefit. It is a waste of time. If you don't respond, you're desysopped. If you do respond, but don't defend at the case, you're desysopped. If you do respond and you do defend, you're desysopped. In almost every case spending time to respond/defend yields being desysopped. So please explain what benefit spending hours upon hours reading everything in the case against you and then spending hours and hours trying to defend yourself is of some benefit? I consider my advice to be excellent advice; it is an utter waste of time to defend yourself, as case after case after case after case has shown. I see no reason to change it. I'd be happy to change it if evidence spoke otherwise; but it doesn't. You were on ArbCom for two years. What did you do to try to reform ArbCom in that time? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Hammersoft: Oh, really? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 18:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oh really? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@RoySmith; so the only way in which I should attempt to fix ArbCom is by running for it? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The only way? No. But probably the most effective way. RoySmith (talk) 19:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I have not commented on that diff anywhere. I will say this about it; if it was so bad that he would be fired for sexual harassment, why isn't he banned from the project? (and before anyone starts calling for my head on a platter; no I am not defending what Marine 69-71 said) --Hammersoft (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Would I block for this relatively minor instance? No. Should he be an admin though? Definitely no. - CaptainEek, discussing the motion to desysop. I personally don't accept the position that this is "minor", but so far as I'm aware this was a one-off instance that was still egregiously beyond the pale. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 16:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

It does appear to be a one-off instance, but had we received a reply that might have been assurance enough to stay the desysop. Personally speaking, if he returns and asks for further discussion on the issue, I would be willing to listen; ArbCom can reverse any decision it makes if necessary given changing circumstances. Primefac (talk) 17:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

What was the emergency that he had to be desysopped by motion? If it was a one-off instance, why not start a case to gather evidence to conclude enough evidence existed to desysop? If it was a one-off instance, then desysopping by motion appears more to be retribution because he hasn't been active rather than acting in the interests of the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Why do we need to have an emergency to act expediently? Primefac (talk) 18:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

You indicate that it might have been one-off and not enough on its own to desysop if he responded, but were unwilling to wait an appropriate time given Tony's inactivity. So since he was inactive it was enough to desysop. In the past, ArbCom has suspended cases pending activity on the part of one of their victims. Why not now? What was the emergency that he had to be desysopped right now? You can't have it both ways. So what was the emergency? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I debated bringing up a motion for a suspended case, but by the time I made the decision to do so the new evidence came out and the motion to desysop was rapidly approaching majority; it did not make sense to me at that point to propose a secondary motion that would — based on past precedent — have the same effect. Primefac (talk) 19:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

ArbCom can pass motions in lieu of a full case in the event that a full case would either be of no benefit to any party or where the only reasonable course of action is obvious and a full case would only delay the inevitable. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 19:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sigh all you want. I speak the truth. I also speak of ArbCom, not of anyone personally. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that is as much of a distinction are you probably mean it to be because we know which individuals that are part of ArbCom supported the action you don't like. Beyond that, it has been my experience that you often have valuable criticism of ArbCom that needs to be considered and taken on board. But also in my personal experience, figuring out what is of value and what is hyperbole can be a challenge and, because of the rhetoric used, was sometimes unpleasant for me as a person. An example (besides this discussion) of where there was both hyperbole and real value for ArbCom to think about doing things differently would be this discussion which resulted in real changes. I would also draw both of those examples in contrast to this discussion from earlier this week where you actually named specific arbs while offering criticism, but it (at least for me) read rather differently. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

In criticizing ArbCom, it is not my intent to criticize any particular member of ArbCom, but ArbCom as a body. Hyperbole? Maybe. Sometimes making change happen requires calling out the absurd. That makes some people uncomfortable, but it isn't targeted. For the discussion you noted last about inactivity, I was stating fact, not criticizing beyond saying "I find it slightly bothersome". Slightly. That's not much of a rebuke. Regardless, I probably should have worded it to be more abstract and make a distinction that I wasn't calling out individual editors. Thanks for the constructive criticism. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@I dream of horses: while I don't really disagree with anything you say, I'll mention that searching on Google is possibly or even probably not what happened here. This was discussed in the case request but basically the victim has a Google Scholar link on their user page and this profile has photo. So "on Google" probably just means that Tony followed that link. That said, while it's not quite as bad, commenting even on an on Wikipedia photo would still be highly inappropriate. And even when an editor has voluntarily linked to some offsite profile it's even more inappropriate when it's offsite.

Also while I agree with the general point on multiple victims, in this case without further evidence and considering if it's on wiki it's not something that is likely to be hidden I'm personally fine with saying it's we should treat it as the only time this happened in a long career.

I still feel this is enough to justify an indef since it's well accepted that there are certain things which are bad enough that even one case is enough that the editor can be indeffed and needs to convince someone to allow them back depending on the type of ban or block. In the case of a community ban discussion, it may be that the editor is able to convince us that it won't be repeated before the cban discussion ends and so is never cbanned. But the point is in some cases we don't just say, well the editor hasn't commented but it also hasn't repeated so we'll just let it slide unless there's evidence for more.

While we apply this less to regular editors, even regular editors will sometimes find themselves indefed until they are able to convince someone to allow them back. Perhaps it's true this is very rarely applied to editors with a very high level of great contributions (WP:UNBLOCKABLES) but I don't think that's right. If the behaviour is severe enough we should treat them the same. Rather than just assuming it won't be repeated, require the editor to convince someone.

I didn't comment on the timing but IMO while it's been a while it's not so long that it's something we should just ignore given the severity. And it's also within their 40 most recent contributions so it's not like they've done a lot more since then. I can understand that this might be the tail end of a long series of great contributions, but we are where we are.

Also to clarify my comments I also became aware of the case request a while before it close but after the comment was part of the mix. I considered but ultimately didn't comment there either since while I wasn't sure I entirely agreed with the approach I decided it wasn't bad enough that it was worth getting involved in.

And to be clear, I'm not saying any action is neded against Hammersoft over what they said. I do think they should appreciate that if they're going to effectively defend what some may find very wrong; then it's likely others will push back on that even if it means calling out the editor when we felt it better to just let it be as an acceptable outcome of highly problematic situation. In other words, they should consider what they say affects not just arbcom or them, but it might also affect the person they are trying to defend.

P.S. I'll mention that when thinking about this more, there is two things I can think of where I feel it was fine for Tony to keep the arbcom bit. One is if they were on some sort of medication or something that seriously impaired their judgment and they could provide sufficient reassurances it won't be repeated. Two is if it was a case of someone else using their computer. Both of these are sufficiently unlikely that I sitll don't think arbcom needed to wait.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Nil Einne Thank you for the explanation. I also agree with you. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 07:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I avoided commenting further at Arbcom because I didn't want to distract from the issues, however there are a couple of points that I wish to make/reinforce:

• Marine 69-71 had every opportunity to participate in the discussion, he knew this was a serious matter but clearly chose not to after his statement on 27 October. So @Hammersoft all your comments about his editing history (above, at Arbcom and on his Talk Page) are completely irrelevant. Whether or not he followed your repeated advice not to participate is anyone's guess until he chooses to comment. If he had chosen to engage and recognized and addressed the issues then it seems likely that he could have got away with admonishment, at least until his inappropriate comment came to light, but that then swung Arbcom to desysop.
• Various comments were made about Marine 69-71 being an inactive admin, doing little harm to the project and that the Arbcom and desysopping somehow was disrespectful to his contributions over the years. If an Admin isn't active they should voluntarily give up the mop, several users recommended that Marine do just that at Arbcom and on his Talk Page and its not like its the first time someone had said it to him: [4], but he did nothing for whatever reason(s). He has only misused the tools for his own benefit and ignored many of the most basic rules and requirements that would be expected of any user let alone an Admin. Admin is a position of responsibility to protect and advance the project, its not a knighthood or lifetime appointment, if you misuse the position you lose it. Marine 69-71's actions led to the Arbcom and his desysopping, he had many opportunities to defend himself and mitigate the fallout but didn't take any of them. Mztourist (talk) 08:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Early on in this, I was hoping to talk with him to convince him to step down. I didn't want to discuss it in public, which is why I asked him to email me (his email is not enabled) [5]. --Hammersoft (talk) 11:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Nil Einne: You're claiming that I effectively defended what Marine 69-71 said. I specifically stated above that I was not. See [6]. --Hammersoft (talk) 11:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Jéské Couriano 117.20.113.66 (talk) 14:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Why the ping? I haven't insinuated that Hammersoft is defending Marine's statement. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 16:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply