Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 343

Can this report, republished in the The Palestine Yearbook of International Law Online via Brill, be used for the following sentence at Demographic engineering, despite the fact that the report was removed from the UNESCWA website after political pressure[1]?

A 2017 report by Richard A. Falk, professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University, and Virginia Tilley, a political scientist from Southern Illinois University Carbondale, originally published by the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (UNESCWA) wrote that "The first general policy of Israel has been one of demographic engineering, in order to establish and maintain an overwhelming Jewish majority."

User Free1Soul claims that the report by these two eminent academics is "disgraced" due to the UNESCWA retraction, but I have not seen any reliable source making such a claim.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but as opinions of these two scholars (not UNESCWA). While UN subsequently retracted the report (EDIT: indeed under pressure of Mr Guterres, because initially it was accepted), the authors (who are both Middle East scholars) stood by it and it still constitutes valid research (political pressure is not something that renders the work unreliable/untrustworthy, only other researchers' conclusions about poor quality). Also, please shorten the sentence, so that it could harmonically merge into the paragraph. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:37, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

The fact of its "unendorsement" by the UN has even made it into scholarly sources Eric Walberg (7 November 2017). The Canada-Israel Nexus. SCB Distributors. pp. 35–. ISBN 978-0-9986947-0-2. "commissioned and approved by the UN but has not obtained an official endorsement from the Secretary General of the UN. Hence, it does not represent the views of the UN." In another, Seada Hussein Adem, refers the reader to pages 14 to 17 of the report.Seada Hussein Adem (5 April 2019). Palestine and the International Criminal Court. Springer. pp. 157–. ISBN 978-94-6265-291-0. so the report is out in the wild, endorsed or not.Selfstudier (talk) 21:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

• The report was retracted by the UN. The report is as reliable as other unpublished work by Falk like antisemitic cartoons he posted on his blog.[2][3]. Onceinawhile uploaded this entry to Wikipedia without even saying the UN retracted and rebuked.Free1Soul (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

  Not reliable. The 9/11 conspiracy theories make this much worse. Free1Soul (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

• Not reliable Antisemitism renders a source WP:QUESTIONABLE in regards to Israel. Adoring nanny (talk) 22:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Thats a BLP violation, one that should have either evidence or be met with sanctions. nableezy - 23:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, apartheid accusations against Israel are not that uncommon, particularly among the American left, and they even came to organisations like B'Tselem (Israel) and Human Rights Watch, so I wouldn't call it WP:FRINGE. Exactly the same source (when reported by Reuters) has been inserted into this Wikipedia article, and that despite the article being extended protected and under active arbitrage coverage.

Also, I'd probably like some better sources than Israeli publications, because, you know, Jews are very sensitive, or even hypersensitive to the critique of Israel, exactly dismissing it as "anti-Semitism". It goes both ways - some critique of Israel is legitimately anti-Semitic, some critique of something being called anti-Semitic isn't anti-Semitic (which I believe is the case here), so if other RS report on it as being part of an anti-Semitic attack, I have no objections; but since Jews are party here, even Haaretz, which is known to be probably the most lenient major Israeli publication to Palestinians, doesn't help to establish claims of anti-Semitism. The case is even weaker given that the story was broken by UN Watch, which is known to have a strong pro-Israeli bias and seems to have been targeting Richard Falk specifically, see here. It is contextually unreliable for such claims (though otherwise a very respectable outlet). PS. The scandal has received no coverage of which I'm aware from non-Israeli sources and was just a short flash of interest, therefore not WP:SUSTAINED.

I also don't agree with the assertion that the work was not published, as the definition says "made available to the public in some form", and it was - it has even racked up 25 citations from Google Scholar (rather unusual, let's agree for unpublished documents); nor can it be reasonably argued it's WP:SPS, so it must be reputably published.

See also these discussions for reference.

Your statement of "Jews are very sensitive" is discriminatory and has no place here. JTA is not Israeli, nor is this 2017 source.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 08:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

If the only sources you have are the Jewish Chronicle and the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, apart from mentioned above, I rest my case.

As for possible 9/11 conspiratorial thinking, it can't be denied he is sympathetic to the conspiracy's main points, but neither can it be denied that his belief in some 9/11 conspiracies strips him from qualifications he has as a political scientist. It's like saying a scientist stops being trustworthy because he was convicted of sexual assault.

Finally, whatever happened to Virginia Tilley? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 09:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

You're gonna have a little problem with your "No Jews Allowed" rule, buddy: Richard Falk is Jewish. JBchrch talk 23:33, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

• Probably undue, regardless of reliability. Falk's work is not about demographic engineering, it just happens to mention it. (t · c) buidhe 03:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

  Buidhe, the idea that a source needs to be “about” the topic of an article for it to be usage is not policy based. But I don’t mind following it, so long as we apply it consistent across the article. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:35, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe, I just reviewed the FA Greek case, an excellent article which you wrote. Many of the sources you used in that article were not “about” the Greek case. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:14, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

• The removal does not make a report unreliable automatically but the cartoons published by Falk indicate his strong bias. For such a topic, I'm sure that there are dozens of other books, articles and reports which can be used, do we truly need this specific one? Alaexis_¿question? 05:19, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Unreliable and WP:UNDUE As showed by Freesoul its not a report but one sided propaganda piece.And per Buidhe even if it was reliable it shouldn't be used --Shrike (talk) 05:50, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• undue/unreliable. The report was retracted by the publisher (UN), so it is just the personal views of Falk and Tilley. Considering Falk is known for posting antisemitic cartoons (already above) and for conspiracy theories: "in his off-hours Mr. Falk moonlights as a prolific purveyor of conspiracy theories" (Sohrab Ahmari, WSJ), this isn't reliable nor due. Falk isn't even a reliable source for what he himself said, as in the past he has denied posting 9/11 conspiracy theories, yet Reuters states: "But Falk’s Jan. 11 blog post unequivocally refers to a cover-up regarding the events of Sept. 11, 2001. “What may be more distressing than the apparent cover up is the eerie silence of the mainstream media, unwilling to acknowledge the well-evidenced doubts about the official version of the events: an al Qaeda operation with no foreknowledge by government officials,” Falk wrote. Falk is very far outside mainstream, though he does have a following in Iran (Teharan Times recently quoted as " Iran as an Islamic system is the only country that is “genuinely” fighting terrorist groups such as Daesh and state terrorism exercised by Israel and the United States.").--Geshem Bracha (talk) 08:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Attribute experts Falk and Tilley, biased or not, are experts in their areas so the report (which has been published) is usable if attributed to them. Although the report was controversial at the time for being the first to allege Israeli apartheid inclusive of Israel as well as in the occupied territories, recent reports by blue chip human rights organizations B'Tselem (Israeli) and Human Rights Watch (international) have produced similar conclusions and so it is no longer considered controversial.Selfstudier (talk) 09:35, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• comment I have stricken User:Szmenderowiecki comments in this discussion as he didn't reach 500 edits --Shrike (talk) 09:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

  Where is it written that such users cannot opine here??? Alaexis_¿question? 11:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

  It's based on an ARCA ie if this discussion is considered as being within Arbpia guideline, Israel-Palestine related, "broadly construed". It's somewhat debatable since the underlying article, Demographic engineering, is not carrying the Arbpia warnings and might only be considered incidental to IP area. I think the strikeout is not really justifed, tbh.Selfstudier (talk) 12:06, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

  I see, thanks. Alaexis_¿question? 13:13, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

  @Selfstudier and Alaexis: the section on Israel is obviously part of the conflict (definitely not incidentally) and User:Nableezy has added the notices. Doug Weller talk 09:10, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  Right, Nableezy has added the Israel material and notices in view of the objection to Falk and after I wrote my comments; it's trivial to get the same information elsewhere which just tends to support my view that not only is the Falk material uncontroversial in and of itself, subsequent unquestioned rs has relied on his material for their material.Selfstudier (talk) 09:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable with attribution as a source of two subject matter experts. Due weight is another question. Also most probably better to remove the clause that mentions being originally published by UNESCWA. The organization appears to want to distance itself from the report, although they have not retracted the report or stated it has errors. --Guest2625 (talk) 11:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Reliable as the attributed view of established experts in the field. WP:SCHOLARSHIP is clear on this, and the ad hominem attacks by some editors above notwithstanding, both authors clearly meet the requirements here. nableezy - 16:10, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Reliable. The two scholars are area experts, and the quote for which they are cited ( "The first general policy of Israel has been one of demographic engineering, in order to establish and maintain an overwhelming Jewish majority.") is a commonplace. Detailed documentation of it is all over numerous relevant wiki articles, and, for example, in Jerusalem planning has long sought to ensure a 70/30 (later adjusted to 60/40 ration between Jews and Arabs. Between 1967 and 2016, 14,595 Palestinians were stripped of their right to live in East Jerusalem, and the reason was to create a Jewish majority even there. The objection appears to be dislike of the authors, particularly Falk, not for the point both authors make. The view therefore cannot even be treated as an exceptional claim.Nishidani (talk) 20:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Unreliable Falk's report has pretty much been discredited and this fails WP:REDFLAG. And as others have pointed out, Falk is quite fringe. As per the ADL: "It is outrageous that the U.N. Human Rights Council continues to support such a wildly conspiratorial and highly biased extremist as a reliable ‘expert,’...Richard Falk has given the Human Right’s Council yet another black eye and his continued affiliation with the international body only serves to undermine its credibility. His outrageous assertion that the Boston terror attack can be traced to U.S. and Israeli policy is not surprising, given his notorious record of anti-Israel and anti-American propaganda.”[4] Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:10, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d, by red flag, are you suggesting that it is an exceptional claim to state that Israel's government is focused on demographic engineering?! John McEnroe wrote a book relevant to that suggestion. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes. And I have no idea why you're bringing up some tennis player's book. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Given your incomprehensible perplexity at the allusion, I guess one will have to spell it out, that it was a gentle way of suggesting your remark cannot be taken seriously.Nishidani (talk) 21:54, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Red flag has nothing to do with the issue. There has been no evidence given that the report was discredited. The passage in question is not controversial. The authors are experts. A scholarly report commissioned by the UN but subsequently not endorsed as reflecting the views of that body (which in any case are mostly based on political compromises), then published in another venue, retains its validity, its status is not defined by the UN but by the expertise of its authors and the venue of its subsequent publication. Were it otherwise the UN would be recognized as exercising an authority over what can or cannot be said of the conflict.Nishidani (talk) 21:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable; the UNESCWA retraction has no significance because the paper derives its weight and reliability from its academic publishing, which remains in good standing. But I would avoid making them the only source. Partially this is because other sources exist saying the same thing (so citing it to just their opinion gives the impression that it has less support than it does.) Beyond that, I do not personally think it is an exceptional statement at all; it seems completely uncontroversial to say that Israel's policies are heavily driven by a need to engage in demographic engineering in order to maintain a Jewish majority in Israel if they want to be a Jewish state. But since so many other sources exist saying this, there is no reason to drag our heels on providing them or to get excessively caught up in a dispute over just one. Some other sources:

• [5] Bookman, Milica Z. "The Demographic Struggle for Power: The Political Economy of Demographic Engineering in the Modern World". Israel is cited as one of the main examples throughout the book.
• [6] Tzfadia, Erez, and Haim Yacobi. "Identity, migration, and the City: Russian immigrants in contested urban space in Israel." Urban Geography 28.5 (2007): 436-455.: "Settling Jewish immigrants in frontier cities and regions was part of a governmental scheme termed by McGarry (1998) “demographic engineering.” The massive expropriation of Palestinian land and houses and their transformation into Jewish state property through legislation (Forman and Kedar, 2004) was one of the most effective means of implementing this program. In Lod, for instance..."
• [7] Molavi, Shourideh C. "Contemporary Israel/Palestine." The Oxford Handbook of Contemporary Middle Eastern and North African History.: Has an entire section about demographic engineering in Israel that is too long to easily quote here, but which goes into extensive detail, but the key conclusion Taken together, the Jewish state begets practices of demographic engineering to ensure a Jewish majority,and simultaneously, the Jewish majority is then made a prerequisite for the consummation of the Jewish state.

There are many more sources. I would collect them, read them, and rewrite the bit in question a bit to reflect what they say. There is some room to debate how to phrase it, but I do not think that the fact that Israel practices demographic engineering is contested - in particular the bit in the lead that says In addition, numerous policies of the Israeli government have been characterized as demographic engineering is inappropriate in that it describes an established fact as an opinion; unless someone can find a source disagreeing with the ones above, it should simply say that Israel practices demographic engineering (and go into a bit more detail as to why, which the sources are fairly clear on - demographic engineering is necessary for Israel to exist as a Jewish state - it should say something like Israel practices demographic engineering in order to maintain a Jewish majority and its identity as a Jewish state or words to that effect.) I'm honestly a bit baffled that people are treating this as controversial - the controversial part is not that Israel practices demographic engineering, the controversial bit is whether it has a right to exist as a Jewish state, which (while it doesn't use the exact terms McGarry did) it effectively says justifies demographic engineering towards that end. So rather than present a well-established fact as mere opinion, I would be careful to include Israel's reasons for its policies. --Aquillion (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable - I was indeed on the fence for a long time with this one, it's a complex matter, but Aquillion's comment (thank you Aquillion) pushed me towards a "reliable" side. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:39, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Unreliable. The publisher (the UN), withdrew its support for this. It was then reprinted in Electronic Intifada and an on-line yearbook of law, but with them reprinting the UN disclaimers etc. The result is a self-published work by Falk and Tilley. Falk is known for self-publishing 9/11 conspiracy theories[8][9] and other junk and his unvetted self published writings can not be considered reliable. 11Fox11 (talk) 05:31, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The “conspiracy theories” stuff looks like a smear job without substance. Per [10] he explicitly denied any belief in the position that his ideological opponents claimed he had. And your analysis of the publication history is incorrect and has been explained in more detail in comments above. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:49, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

This Reuters piece, already quoted above, analyzed the Falk's denial of the denial and rejected it, stating that "Falk’s Jan. 11 blog post unequivocally refers to a cover-up regarding the events of Sept. 11, 2001". This is a reliable source on Falk. 11Fox11 (talk) 06:07, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

All government investigations include some form of cover-up. All of them. Why? Because government bureaucracies are consistently incompetent and mistake-prone, and it is not politically expedient to highlight these mistakes when people have been killed in a national tragedy. Falk’s political opponents extrapolated and speculated about the kind of cover-up Falk was referring to, but I am not aware of any substance behind the claim that he was pushing a conspiracy theory. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:27, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

You might have a point if this were about 9/11. Falk however is an established expert on international law and on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and no when Brill publishes something in the Palestine Yearbook of International Law it is not a "self-published" work, and even if it were, as the work product of two established experts, this would still be a fine source per WP:SPS. People disliking what a reliable source says is not, and has never been, a reason to remove it from a supposed encyclopedia article. Which is what every single "not reliable" vote here is aiming to do. Maybe stop with the obvious logical fallacies and focus on what our policies say, which is that this is an obviously reliable source as WP:SCHOLARSHIP. nableezy - 15:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Falk is thoroughly discredited, reliable sources note his conspiracy theories. As for the copy hosted at The Palestine Yearbook of International Law Online, it is classified as "other", has the heading of "UN DOCUMENTS", and is a one to one copy of the retracted UN report including copyright notices and acknowledgements. There is no indication of peer review or any scientific process. The yearbook reprinting a retracted report due to relevance to the yearbook does not make the report reliable. Furthermore, the same yearbook in the same issue reprinted hundreds of pages of UN documents in the same back portion of the yearbook, such as:

1. Draft United Nations Security Council Resolution S/2017/1060 (Dec. 17, 2017)
2. United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/ES-10/19 (Dec. 21, 2017)
3. United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/72/13 (Dec. 6, 2017)
4. United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/72/15 (Dec. 7, 2017)

After 300 pages or so of UN documents, it also reprinted:

1. Law for the Regularization of Settlement in Judea and Samaria, 5777–2017 (Israel)
2. Statement Issued by the Central Council of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)
3. Statement by (United States) President Trump on Jerusalem

This portion of the yearbook (the back portion), is merely a dumping ground for primary documents relating to the topic of the yearbook. These primary documents are published as-is, without any peer review or any process. 11Fox11 (talk) 15:43, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

You can keep saying he is discredited, but he isnt, and no reliable source has questioned his expertise on this topic. You can keep talking about irrelevant things like 9/11 but this isnt about 9/11 so I dont quite see the point in arguing about this. You can keep saying things about primary documents, but a report by third party academics is not a primary source. nableezy - 16:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

• Reliable. The Palestine Yearbook of International Law is a well-respected publication. 11Fox11 should learn what "self-published" means before trying to apply an irrelevant policy. Like others here, I'm amazed at the attempt to remove "in order to establish and maintain an overwhelming Jewish majority" which anyone who knows anything about the subject knows to be a primary objective of Israel and Zionism before it. Zero^talk 06:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

• I think that part of the issue is that few people disagree that Israel makes maintaining a Jewish majority a central policy goal (Israeli officials are often very unambiguous about this); but people who support what Israel is doing generally object to any specific academic term for it. Partially this is because those words tend to also apply to a lot of really unequivocally awful stuff; eg. this source (while discussing the term's use in another context) mentions that demographic engineering, as an all-encompassing package of demographic policies, comprises ‘ethnic cleansing’ as one of its measures and then immediately notes that the use of the term in that conflict is predominant in the non-apologetic historiographical literature on violence against minorities, which I read as a scholarly way of saying people don't tend to describe something as demographic engineering if they think it's a good thing. Rather than trying to omit the sources that do use the term in relation to Israel, it might be worth looking for similar sources describing who uses it and who doesn't in relation to Israel - such sources probably exist. But this is probably a better discussion for the article talk page. --Aquillion (talk) 07:47, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

• Parts of the yearbook may be peer reviewed papers. The back portion of the yearbook, including this document, is a dumping ground of primary material namely hundreds of pages of UN documents, court decisions, Israeli laws, PLO statements. Look at the Table of contents of the issue and this is what is there from page 201 (after the actual articles and one book review). 11Fox11 (talk) 15:46, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

You have a very serious misunderstanding of what primary means. Falk and Tilley are not primary sources on this topic. nableezy - 15:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The inclusion in the primary document dump of the yearbook lends this discredited report the same weight as the Statement by (United States) President Trump on Jerusalem reprinted in the same portion of the yearbook. The original publisher, the UN, unendorsed this. So this is the same as material posted on Falk's website. 11Fox11 (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

You seem to think that just repeating things like discredited makes it true. The work product of two established experts in the field is reliable even if it were on Falk's website. And you also seem to be ignoring that Virginia Tilley is likewise an established expert in the field. But good luck with the attempt at proof by repetition, maybe itll work. Doubt it, but who knows nableezy - 16:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The situation (per scholarly source at the top of this discussion) is "commissioned and approved by the UN but has not obtained an official endorsement from the Secretary General of the UN. Hence, it does not represent the views of the UN." That does not mean discredited, not even close. Try some other argument.Selfstudier (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

• Obviously not reliable A retracted report, written by a known conspiracy theorist (not intended as a smear, but Falk's activities as a 9/11 truther are well known). Surprised we're even discussing this. For what it's worth, I believe the claim is accurate, it seems rather uncontroversial to say Israel has attempted to engineer a Jewish majority. So no problem with stating that, but this particular source is not suitable. Jeppiz (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Jeppiz, please substantiate the claim but Falk's activities as a 9/11 truther are well known. Per above, my reading is that these are distorted claims made by his ideological enemies but I can't see much evidence for them. Your statement is making him sound like he is actively pushing a conspiracy, but I believe his "activities" were a blog post suggesting that the government might not be sharing everything it knew, which he later clarified that he did not mean in a conspiracy theory way. That is not the behaviour of a "9/11 truther". Onceinawhile (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure. First, it was not just blog posts. Falk wrote the preface to the book The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11 which claims that the Bush administration was involved in the 9/11 attacks.^[1]. Second, the Secretary General of the UN condemned Falk's pushing of conspiracy theories Reuters, That is much more substantial than just ideological enemies (who??) distorted his claims in a blog. Jeppiz (talk) 20:17, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Entirely irrelevant, nobody is using Falk as a source on 9/11. nableezy - 20:45, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, IMO anyone who has pushed conspiracy theories (if that's true) in one topic is probably unreliable for any topic. The point is certainly relevant. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:34, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

No, a set of users bringing up unrelated topics to dismiss an expert in this field is not something that is found in WP:RS. Falk is professor emeritus of international law at Princeton. He is a former Special Rapporteur and has been published in a huge number of peer-reviewed journal articles on the Arab-Israeli conflict and international law. Tilley is a professor at Southern Illinois University who has likewise been published in peer-reviewed works on this topic. What, exactly, in WP:SCHOLARSHIP allows for the dismissal of these scholars because of one of their views on another topic? Quote from policy please, dont just hand wave to some belief that you have that is not found anywhere in our policies. nableezy - 16:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a pretty well recognised principle that if a source spreads some conspiracy theories or other similar types of nonsense, then it is considered unreliable in general. See, for example, the Daily Mail: over 95% of the material it publishes are probably uncontroversial and factually correct, the concern is that it repeatedly pushes unfounded rubbish. The principle is documented at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Deprecated_sources. Now see the definition of a source at WP:SOURCEDEF; it is not limited to publishing organisations but also includes The creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and as the policy says: Any of the three can affect reliability. So yes, if an author has spread conspiracy theories in any topic, they are generally unreliable as a source for all topics. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

An academic expert in this specific field who is freaking professor emeritus at Princeton cannot under any reading of WP:RS be considered unreliable in general. If Falk were writing on his blog on this topic he would meet WP:SPS which says Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. And thanks for WP:DEPRECATED, that requires an RFC to deprecate a source, not one editor making assertions that when the policy they claim supports it does not back them up. Yes, any of the three can affect the reliability. And if you continue reading WP:RS youll see where it discusses WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Falk is a widely cited expert in the fields of international law and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If youd like to try to deprecate a person with some 26000 citations to his work (a fifth of those just in the last five years) you are welcome to try. But itll take an RFC to do that. Not you making assertions not actually based on policy, and in fact directly contradicted by it. Even if he were writing on his blog Falk would be reliable on this topic per Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. His work in the relevant field is what is at issue here, and in that relevant field he was professor at Ohio State, Harvard and Princeton. His work has been published by some of the most respected publishers on the planet. You want to make an RFC to deprecate that type of source feel free. Oh, and please tell me why Virginia Tilley is being ignored here? She is likewise the author of peer-reviewed works on this topic. Why are you ignoring her entirely? This specific article has been cited by 26 times itself. And youre going to say Wikipedia should deprecate the author? Let me know when the Daily Mail is racking up citations to its work in Political Studies. nableezy - 17:08, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Should also maybe read what this effort to discredit Falk was actually about, and not just accept as gospel what people trying to disqualify an actual expert on the topic has to say because they dislike his views. He hasnt spread any conspiracy theories anyway, but his views on 9/11 are entirely irrelevant to his area of academic expertise, which this article firmly falls under. nableezy - 19:29, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

• 'Unreliable, fringe'. Astounding this is even discussed. As User:Jeppiz shows, Falk, the first named author, is known for 9/11 conspiracies. As User:Adoring nanny says, Falk also had an antisemitic cartoons issue. Whatever his pre-emeritus credentials, his reputation is shot in the emeritus phase. He was even condemned by his emeritus employer, the UN. As User:11Fox11 shows, the Brill yearbook reproduction is brought up here disingenuously as it appears there not as a research article but as a reproduction of a multitude of UN documents that the yearbook reproduced from the period. It is not peer reviewed. The actual publisher here, the UN, withdrew the publication. 9/11 conspiracy theorists are not reliable sources.--Hippeus (talk) 19:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

It is a BLP violation to call a living person a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. The number of users making such derogatory claims on a living person when no reliable source does so is obscene. And every single person making that claim had better start putting up rock solid sources that directly back up that contention. The Reuters source says no such thing. UN Watch is not a reliable source to disparage a living person. And calling a a journal article that already has 26 citations to it fringe is what is astounding. nableezy - 19:46, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Not a journal article. Not peer reviewed. Reproduction in a yearbook of a document the UN unpublished, alongside other UN documents from the period. As for 9/11, he was condemned by the UN chief: U.N. chief condemns rights expert's 9/11 comments, and from the discussion above there are plenty of other sources on 9/11 conspiracy theories here.--Hippeus (talk) 19:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

The introduction to the article says Appreciation is extended to the blind reviewers for their valuable input. The UN chief condemned one part of one blog post he made. He did not call him a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. Unless you provide reliable sources that substantiate what you said about a living person you should withdraw it. nableezy - 19:56, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

More than enough reliable sources have referred to him as a conspiracy theorist,a promoter of conspiracy theories, and he has praised conspiracy theorists like David Ray Griffin. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Since two blue chip human rights organizations have since not only confirmed but have expanded upon the findings of Falk and Tilley, then as far as I am concerned that fact by itself is sufficient confirmation that the report is an acceptable document.Selfstudier (talk) 21:38, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

What utter bs. A selection of sources saying that Israel supporters claim he is something and a set of opinion pieces from Israel supporters saying he is something is not anywhere close to the level of sourcing that WP:BLP requires for such a claim. Im going to open an RFC on this, it is insane that users can commit BLP violating edits to wipe away actual scholars on the level of Richard Falk in the topic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Insane. nableezy - 23:19, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable per the convincing rationale by Jeppiz; and per my above general comments on source reliability, combined with the arguments and evidence later presented by Hippeus and Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d. ProcSock (talk) 01:39, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
• Obviously unreliable, fringe and undue. per Jeppiz and Hippeus. - Daveout(talk) 03:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
• Reliable per Aquillon, whether it is due weight is another matter but this is clearly a well-regarded academic opinion that I see no reason to consider unreliable. Devonian Wombat (talk) 04:49, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment For those arguing that the document is unpublished, it is published here as well:-

1) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/mepo.12265

2) https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=ps_pubs

3) https://www.proquest.com/openview/fbf5c248e3ad13eb65ee4a8a19a11294/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=26627

it is also available for download in multiple locations all over the net and the position that this report is discredited or of no value has absolutely no merit.Selfstudier (talk) 18:42, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable. Published or not published, this is advocacy. The association of an author with conspiracy theories, being described as "went off the political deep end a long time ago" in The Wall Street Journal, preclude this source.PrisonerB (talk) 08:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Thats actually an opinion piece by the Sohrab Ahmari. I leave it to the reader to judge if Sohrab Ahmari is more of a reliable source than Richard A. Falk and Virginia Tilley. nableezy - 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The discussion has honed in on whether Falk's overall reliability has been impugned by his fringe views on 9/11. The content of dispute pertaining to the Israeli conflict is not fringe: "The first general policy of Israel has been one of demographic engineering, in order to establish and maintain an overwhelming Jewish majority." Jeppiz notes that this is not a controversial statement and that other sources can be used instead of Falk. Spudlace (talk) 07:34, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Reliable per Aquillon and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. NightHeron (talk) 10:49, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I have some concerns generally about the political slant, editorial independence and reliability of KUSI-TV, a television station in San Diego. In January 2019, the station said CNN had refused to have on one of their reporters for political reasons, but had no evidence for the claim. When U.S. Congressman Duncan D. Hunter did an interview with KUSI-TV in December 2019, while he was in the middle of a federal indictment, the station stuck to questions provided by his team. And in August 2020, they ran a highly flattering "exclusive" with notorious anti-vaccine activist (and later Capitol stormer) Simone Gold, framing her as "censored" and writing about "why the medical community, and Democrat legislators won’t embrace the drug as a valid treatment option for those infected with coronavirus" and "the success they have had using Hydroxychloroquine to treat patients infected with coronavirus." Needless to say, this recent track record of imbalance to the U.S. Republican Party and political right is concerning for what is supposed to be an independent station. Reposting as this was initially archived before any discussion. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 11:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Any evidence they make stuff up?Slatersteven (talk) 11:13, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Did you read the part about CNN and the part where they said hydroxychloroquine helped cure COVID? AllegedlyHuman (talk) 11:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I read the article you linked... and I don’t see where they say hydrocychloroqine cures Covid. What they report is that some doctors said it helps treat Covid. This is fact... there were doctors saying this. (And please note that there is a difference between a treatment and a cure). Blueboar (talk) 12:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

My mistake. And yes, there were some people with medical degrees saying this (Gold and Stella Immanuel, the alien sex demon lady, come to mind) but it doesn't mean a newsroom should run a glowing, completely uncritical puff piece on them. That has to knock this station's credibility, or at very least their editorial judgment. And calling it "censorship" as they do is in fact untrue. This sentence from the article, "Since President Trump promoted hydroxychloroquine as a beneficial treatment, the media, big tech, and Democrat officials have been adamant about not allowing anyone to speak in favor of the drug", is indistinguishable to me from a Breitbart piece. That wasn't a Gold quote – that was their reporter. Any local media outlet warning about someone being "smeared by the mainstream media" is clearly thus distinguishing themselves from the mainstream media (the bulk of WP:RSP). To be clear, the vast majority of local news stations are not like this. The linked piece is thoroughly problematic by itself, and with a documented history of related pandering as provided by the other sources, I think this source's reliability needs to be thoroughly considered. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 12:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Bias and reliability can overlap, but they are not the same thing. I certainly would not give this source much WEIGHT (due to its bias), but I would place it on the reliability scale I would place it on the “reliable” side of the line. It does retract when it gets facts wrong. Blueboar (talk) 12:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I looked at it but honestly as far as reliability is concerned, its weak. You can look for corroboration from a second source. Also the news makes updates and correction periodically which is the similar case with most local TV channels. Just my two cents. HaughtonBrit (talk) 13:49, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Not for noting, but the San Diego Tribune piece making the allegations was written by an opinion columnist and it looks like the piece is subject to WP:RSOPINION. The particular piece regarding Hydroxychloroquine isn't a great look, but this is why we have WP:MEDRS (reputable national stations seem to have been similarly bad in their coverage of the vaccine-autism debacle, including at least one listed at WP:RSP as generally reliable(!) that stated in the voice of the magazine that there was a conspiracy to cover up alleged autism-causing effects of chemicals in vaccines). If there's a pattern of this sort of stuff, then I'd be a bit more concerned. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:MEDRS goes into play. The popular press in general is considered an un reliable source for medical claims. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I do not think enough attention is being given presently to the Hunter article, which shows non-independence, and the CNN article, showing deliberate publication of lies. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 03:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

The article in the San Diego Tribune was written by Charles T. Clark, a columnist. It appears to be an opinion piece, and I'd hesitate to label a source based upon that. The AP article about CNN doesn't appear to be a good look for the source. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:39, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is another in-depth article reporting on their interview with Congressman Hunter, including quotes from experts on journalism ethics: "This … only proves my point that this was not really journalism — it was a free ad. Had it been real journalism, the reporter would have asked follow-ups, challenged contradictions, and brought in additional points of view." I personally do not think that the Union-Tribune piece is a column; it is not labeled as such and does not read like a column (though I will admit it is strange to see a columnist do traditional news). This is a random example I just found on their website of what a column from that newspaper looks like: labeled "Opinion", description of the author below the byline, and "Commentary" and "Opinion" tags at the bottom. Here is another write-up of the CNN debacle, this time from The Hill. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 14:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• It is certainly reliable (as a primary source) for a statement about what Congressman Hunter said in the interview (it is unlikely that they misrepresented his views). The fact that they threw him softballs or did not ask follow up questions is irrelevant to that. Again, I am not seeing deliberate misrepresentation, here... this seems more like a NPOV issue than a reliability issue. Blueboar (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

There is an interview with a birth parent of children in the Hart family murders which I want to use as a source. The Appeal (magazine) is by Tides Advocacy and the about page is https://theappeal.org/about/ . It seems like a legitimate source to me but I would like some feedback as using the interview of the birth parent is a BLP dimension (the adoptive parents and the children have been dead for more than two years and no other people were involved in the murders, so the Hart family case itself is not a BLP case) WhisperToMe (talk) 17:01, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Looks legit and reliable source to me especially since they work with public officials, advocates, academics, and other journalists. And if you have secondary source to corroborate, that helps too. I consider TheAppeal reliable.HaughtonBrit (talk) 17:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I think what also helps is that the interview was conducted by Roxana Asgarian, who (based on her name being the same) also wrote articles sent to The Washington Post and The Oregonian about that case. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Interviews are tricky. Reliability depends on a) the publication, b) the journalist conducting the interview... and c) the person being interviewed (are they an expert, do they have an agenda, etc). In this case, I would say that the interview is reliable for an attributed statement as to what was said in the interview, but not necessarily for a factual claim written in WP’s voice. Blueboar (talk) 21:08, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

The article itself is mostly the journalist writing but Asgarian includes some excerpts stated by the interviewee. I want to use Asgarian's statement that a woman is the birth mother of three of the children and that she's white, and use the birth mother's interview statement on how she felt about government agencies not contacting her. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:42, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• Are we asking for a reliable source that the person in question said the things they said in the interview or that what they said in the interview is itself true? Those are two different questions and exactly what we are citing will determine whether or not the source should or should not be used as it is being used. Even if it is the first and not the second, WP:UNDUE comes in to play as well. --Jayron32 17:10, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I am being told that the American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census is not a reliable source and its inclusion is misleading (so my additions were removed to Portland, Oregon and Tacoma, Washington). I think the American Community Survey is a highly reliable source and should be included.The diffs are:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portland%2C_Oregon&type=revision&diff=1025674364&oldid=1025607899
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tacoma%2C_Washington&type=revision&diff=1025674215&oldid=1025606056

The References are:

• "B03002 HISPANIC OR LATINO ORIGIN BY RACE - Tacoma, Washington - 2019 American Community Survey 1-Year Estimates". U.S. Census Bureau. July 1, 2019. Retrieved May 28, 2021.
• "B03002 HISPANIC OR LATINO ORIGIN BY RACE - Portland - 2019 American Community Survey 1-Year Estimates". U.S. Census Bureau. July 1, 2019. Retrieved May 28, 2021.

Patapsco913 (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Generally reliable and primary.The American Community Survey is a generally reliable source that is widely used and is perfectly usable for what you are trying to do; sources even consider it to be a principal source of high-resolution geographic information about the U.S. population (though errors may be greater in certain communities than others). The margins of error tend to be a bit larger than the census data, which may be why the other editor seems to want to wait until the Census results are released, though since Wikipedia is constantly a work-in-progress. while the links you are providing are also primary source links, though they seem to be used appropriately in that context, and I think inclusion improves the articles. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:48, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree fully with Mikehawk10. When full results of the 2020 Census appear (early December 2021), just don't forget to update the info. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 05:58, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Consistency between articles is important. Giving undue weight to the ACS without an adequate prose disclaimer (which was not provided) would be misleading to readers and imply that there was a census conducted in 2019. There's a long-held consensus for U.S. city articles to not update racial/ethnic data until the official census. SounderBruce 07:02, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Could you please provide the link that states the consensus? I can't find it. Besides, if the only issue is with the lack of disclaimer, what is only needed is to add the clarification that this is ACS, and not census data. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 08:00, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I could add some prose to differentiate it from the Census apart from the heading such as: "According to 2019 US Census Bureau American Community Survey one-year estimates (which is conducted annually for cities over 65,000 via sampling), Portland's population was 77.3% White (70.5% Non-Hispanic White and 6.8% Hispanic White), 5.6% Black or African American, 0.8% Native American and Alaskan Native, 8.2% Asian, 0.3% Pacific Islander, 2.2% Some Other Race, and 5.7% from two or more races." see full my commentary on Talk:Portland, Oregon#Use of 2019 United States Census Bureau American Community Survey. Patapsco913 (talk) 12:35, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• The source is scrupulously reliable, but as a primary source, should be prefaced with the "According to the US Census Bureau's American Community Survey, in year X, yada yada yada" is probably the way you want to attribute it. I wouldn't use the data to present anything in Wikipedia's voice except raw statistics, and I would always attribute it directly in text so the source is known. --Jayron32 17:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

What is the reliability of Mental Floss for their "historical trivia"?

In the talk page discussion for Ball (association football), a Mental Floss source was removed for incorrectly claiming that the ball used in association football was invented by Buckminster Fuller.

And in the talk page discussion for Henry Woodward (inventor), Mental Floss again seemed to make a questionable claim.

In Milunka Savić, an editor tagged a claim from Mental Floss as potentially unreliable.

Banana peel cites Mental Floss to claim an origin for the use of banana peels as comical gags, but the Mental Floss article itself doesn't contain any references. Glieze (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to say that it's not a reliable source. There are too many issues, and the lack of sourcing for a lot of surprising claims is also a bad sign. Mangoe (talk) 01:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Mental Floss is a listicle website/youtube channel, and it should never be cited for anything. Most of it is probably true, but it's an infotainment site not a scholarly source. We should expect more scrupulously professional and scholarly sources than the Mental Floss, Watch Mojo, etc. etc. type of sources. --Jayron32 17:17, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

There has been some question raised over whether this editorial on the website Bukharian Jewish Link counts as a reliable enough source for This text at the BLP article Yitzhak Israeli. I think I know what the answer is, but there's someone who doesn't agree, and I'm seeking additional input on the matter so that there is a clear weight of consensus behind it. One editor removed the text, I protected the article in question (I've never edited the article myself, never once heard of the person before I protected the article, and have no strong opinion about the subject matter other than enforcing Wikipedia BLP policy), and now there is an editor who insists that the source is reliable and that the text must be returned. Can we get some consensus on this so we can put the matter to rest. --Jayron32 16:47, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I am no expert on this matter, but I would say you should almost certainly check whether you linked the right editorial here. Boynamedsue (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

That's the exact source in the diff of the removed text. --Jayron32 01:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

You linked to something about weight fluxuation. It's not the same source in the diff, which is this. In any case (going by the source in the diff), no, that source definitely cannot be used in the manner that diff is using it - it is plainly opinion content, so it would be WP:RSOPINION at most and would require attribution. The diff you linked makes numerous bald, unattributed statements of fact in the article voice, eg. in a direct move to undermine the current Bukharian Chief Rabbi, which would require a non-opinion source. My inclination is that it is not a great opinion source (the website doesn't seem significant and the author doesn't seem to have any particular expertise - though it's hard to tell because unless I'm missing something they don't state the author's full name) so I wouldn't be eager to use it at all, but it definitely can't be used in that fashion, which is plainly presenting the author's opinions as fact. --Aquillion (talk) 04:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC) --Aquillion (talk) 04:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry. This was the link I meant to use. I have corrected it. --Jayron32 12:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

[24]

Basically, Kaneko Hiraku is a Japanese historian with a PhD in the relevant field, from a prestigious university, who now works (or at least worked at the time of publication in 2009) as an assistant curator of the historical resources collection at the most prestigious university in Japan.[25] He quotes, and then briefly analyses, a long passage from the Sonkei-kaku Text of the primary source, the Shinchō-ki. He presents this passage as a possible late (fanciful) addition based on an imaginative expansion of another older source, while recognizing that, since other additions made to the same text are generally seen as important historical resources, the passage in question can't be rejected outright.

Thomas Lockley is an English lecturer in a prestigious Japanese university who sometimes teaches classes on topics he is interested in,[26] through English, with English immersion apparently being the primary goal of the courses. In the last few years he has apparently written a few popular history books (and one non-specialist article for the semi-annual organ of his faculty[27]) in English (and one book for Japanese readers with the title Read in English: The Japanese History and Culture That Foreigners Really Want to Know[28]). His "About the Author" sections and the like almost never mention either (a) where and in what field he got his degrees, (b) his work résumé (which includes at least two decades of TEFL and other seemingly-general pedagogical work,[29] including at Kanda Foreign Language University[30]), or (c) the fact that seemingly all of his peer-reviewed publications are on language education rather than history.[31] Lockley's books and that one article generally cite the Kaneko passage described above, but where Kaneko's description ignores the fact that Yasuke was apparently given a "さや巻之のし付" (i.e., a dagger with a scabbard and a decorative sheet of gold/silver attached to the scabbard), perhaps because Kaneko saw it as unimportant, Lockley takes it to be "a short, ceremonial katana". In at least one later Zoom/YouTube lecture, where he doesn't cite either primary or secondary sources (but is clearly still referring to same passage), Lockley places even greater emphasis on his interpretation of this passage.[32]

Lockley (self-disclosure here and here) actually added this text to Wikipedia before his own writings on the subject were published,[33][34] so at the time, as far as Wikipedia was concerned, the text was unsourced OR, but now that his books and that one article have been published it's a little greyer. We could just replace the citation, but we also know that his cited sources (both primary and secondary) don't agree with his conclusions, and since he doesn't seem to have any qualifications in the relevant field, I wonder if it would be better to rewrite the text to be more in accordance with what Kaneko wrote. Thoughts?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:00, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Remove the pop source and use the expert-in-the-field work. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:50, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

It seems a little confusing what you are describing. It would appear that that part that Lockley is being used to cite is specifically "a short, ceremonial katana". You say that this is in disagreement with Kaneko Hiraku, but you also say "Kaneko's description ignores the fact that Yasuke was apparently given a "さや巻之のし付" (i.e., a dagger with a scabbard and a decorative sheet of gold/silver attached to the scabbard), perhaps because Kaneko saw it as unimportant". That leads me to two questions. First, Kaneko ignored it, then where is "a dagger with a scabbard and a decorative sheet of gold/silver attached to the scabbard" coming from? Is that your own translation? And second, where is the disagreement? It would be a disagreement if Kaneko said that it was "a dagger with a scabbard and a decorative sheet of gold/silver attached to the scabbard" and Lockley said "No, it was a short, ceremonial katana". But if Kaneko simply didn't mention it "perhaps because Kaneko saw it as unimportant", then Lockley isn't so much disagreeing with him as including something that he did not include, correct? Kaneko not saying that it is "short, ceremonial katana" is not the same thing as Kaneko saying that it is not "short, ceremonial katana". NonReproBlue (talk) 13:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Would Igromania be be considered a reliable source on video games per Wikipedia_talk:VG/S/A8#Russian_print_magazines? I'm considering adding it as reliable to WikiProject Video games/Sources. Tyrone Madera (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

It cannot be considered reliable because it's in Russian and only those who can read Russian can get benefit from it but for the majority of English or non-Russian speakers, it won't be of any help. Also its hard to verify and validate the content that the source references to and to make sure that the reference actually provides proof about what the content states. If there is an English translation of Igromania site, then surely it can be reliable but since its all in Russian, it cannot be reliable. HaughtonBrit (talk) 18:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

This is totally wrong. There is nothing wrong with citing foreign language sources per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources and indeed it would be difficult to cover many foreign language topics without using them. I have no opinion on the reliability of Igromania, but the fact that it is written in Russian is irrelevant. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

no not totally wrong. Problem is how do you verify the foreign language reference with the English content on the article to make sure they both match? This is the main concern because anyone can make a false statement on the article and reference the foreign language source with it possibly causing vandal. HaughtonBrit (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes its totally wrong. Go read WP:V and come back when you have. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:43, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, you are misrepresenting Wikipedia policy (WP:NONENG), which clearly says Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. Just as we allow paywalled and offline sources, we allow sources written in languages other than English. Continuing to quote from this policy, As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page. (See Template:Request quotation.) Umimmak (talk) 19:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually (WP:NONENG) clears my concerns. Thank you for sharing this.

Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance.  I haven't misrepresented Wikipedia policy as no policy was mentioned in my statement earlier. It clearly states that If you quote a non-English reliable source (whether in the main text or in a footnote), a translation into English should always accompany the quote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations." So editors can use a reliable non-English source as long as the quote from it is translated by reliable source. This was my only concern which is clear now. So if Igromamia can be considered reliable then quotes will have to be translated by reliable source before sharing. Igromania seems to be valid registered domain but the credibility of its reliability is doubtful. Other opinions are welcomed to help the questionnaire which except one, no one has shared their thoughts yet about reliability of Igromania.HaughtonBrit (talk) 21:07, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@HaughtonBrit: The point is that it's preferred to use English material but non-English material is welcome, especially if the cited info doesn't appear in English language sources. Also Russian is not a secret code: there are Russian speaking editors who can read the material and translate it WhisperToMe (talk) 17:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: Yes you have point but as long as the non-English material is translated by reliable source for verification of the cited info, non-English source can be reliable in that case and then can be added to the cited info on the article.HaughtonBrit (talk) 17:25, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@HaughtonBrit: Indeed the policy Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources states that "official" translations (ones done by reliable sources) are generally preferable to ones done by Wikipedians themselves. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight, "quoting" in the policy refers to actual quoting, as in taking a chunk of text from a source and adding it to an article. There is no general requirement to translate cited sources. Alaexis_¿question? 18:19, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

If you are going to use this source as a citation for something that is possibly contentious (which, for this type of content, could be something like "so-and-so was the best-selling game in Russia in YYYY"), then we would expect that a translation should be done by a human hand rather than a machine translation to make sure we're not missing any subtlies on the language. If it is for basic non-contentious info ("so-and-so was released in Russia on (date)" that would not require a quality translation since that should be obvious from a machine one. --Masem (t) 20:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Igromania is/was generally reliable (the print magazine is no longer published), I am not aware of issues with it and wasn't able to find anything. Given the nature of the area they are working in, I think most of the time it should be possible to find English-language sources. Alaexis_¿question? 06:38, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

sportskeeda.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

sportskeeda.com is currently used as a source in ~2000 articles, heavily focussed on Indian sport and popular culture. Concern about this source has been expressed before here by Hipal and here by Fishhead2100. A look at the website shows their editorial oversight seems pretty lax. Their list of content editors doesn't even include anyone for pop culture topics. I'm wondering if they need to be considered generally unreliable except in the case of pieces from professional journalists. —valereee (talk) 14:26, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't have anything to add from before. They don't clearly distinguish their own content from submitted content that I can see. It would be useful to find some of their corrections, or their articles that clearly need corrections. --Hipal (talk) 16:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of citations from sportskeeda be removed for being unreliable. Here are some interesting links of theirs: becoming a writer, becoming an editor, and their affiliate program, which from what I can tell is that they will pay you to link to their articles. From their writer's page: Writing at Sportskeeda is a great way to make your content reach thousands (sometimes millions) of readers. It also helps promote your personal brand, and even earn you some money!. Hmm... they even promote the conflicts of interest there!

Their only requirements for writers are that you have samples of previous work, a CV, and be proficient in English, but not a proper journalist (however they recommend 'freshers' to not apply). To be an editor would understandably be more strict, but it's even less detailed and all it really says they want is an exceptional command over English and extensive knowledge of sports. They do not mention journalistic experience in either page.

I would recommend that the source be deprecated. It in every way appears to be a content farm. SWinxy (talk) 21:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I would support deprecation as well. I've in the past seen Sportskeeda publish inaccurate information and they don't appear to have any process for corrections. From the above, they are quite obviously a content farm and the encouragement of COI publishing is a nail in the coffin for me. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 05:44, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I've come across Sportskeeda in YouTuber BLP articles and I have to say I think that it's a low quality source that appears to have very little editorial oversight. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:00, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Very little? That's gracious. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:26, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

"...heavily focused on Indian sport and culture." That's not quite accurate. They have have non-Indians writers. They cover WWE/AEW (pro wrestling), tennis, NFL, UFC, basketball (NBA, college basketball), and other non-Indian leagues/sports. They have a pop culture section where it's has a lot of non-Indian content. Just because they have a good number of Indian writers and sections for Indian sports articles doesn't mean the site is 100 percent Indian focused. Just because Sportskeeda has been used as a source doesn't equate to reliability. WP:UNRELIABLESOURCE has been outlined as you can see. When it comes to it being removed, the WP:PW has Sportskeeda on that project's list of unreliable sources. So it's never used to source pro wrestling articles. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 00:10, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Based on comments from @SWinxy, @Tayi Arajakate and @Fishhead2100, I would also support deprecating it and/or marking it unreliable. -- DaxServer (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I am in agreement with the majority here and support the unreliability of Sportskeeda. Editorial oversight, personal gain for financial reason leads it to being deprecated.HaughtonBrit (talk) 13:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

One thing I forgot to mention is that their fact checking process is not known. In the realm of pro wrestling, it's mostly linking to previous in-house articles while at times regurgitating (that's what dirt sheets usually do) what Dave Meltzer (long time wrestling "journalist") says whether true or not. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 20:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

From this discussion, I'll downgrade the source from 'depends on contributor' to 'general unreliable' on WP:UPSD, but I'll update again if consensus is to deprecated/blacklist. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I see this source pop up from time to time. We have an article about it, Christian Broadcasting Network: a "conservative evangelical Christian religious television network and production company [f]ounded by televangelist Pat Robertson". Based just on that description, it should be obvious that we shouldn't be using this for any kind of remotely controversial statement of fact, and that it should be treated as a WP:BIASEDSOURCE.

But I see that we cite it on an awful lot of pages.

The place I noticed it being added today was at Ark Encounter, using it to back up a claim that "Ark Encounter opened a new $3 million virtual reality experience". It's actually cited to Faithwire (which is why it caught my attention -- "wire" in the name is always suspicious for its association with press releases) but the story originated at CBN... sort of. CBN published an almost sentence-for-sentence close slight reword of the official press release. Unambiguous churnalism.

I'm opening this section not to ask whether it should be used to back up this particular claim, but to ask whether this churnalism is normal for CBN? If it regularly publishes reheated press releases, we should be reevaluating this much-used source. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I've seen virtually this exact same question asked at a talk page for something creationism-related, where CBN republished a press release from the Discovery Institute which made opinionated statements and wanted to repeat those statements in wikivoice because CBN published it. My advice would be to follow your first suggestion, and only use it for the most uncontroversial claims of fact, or to source notable opinions. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:19, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

This is a tough one because in the area in which they’re most used (Christian music) they’re actually very reliable. The problem is that real potential for damage exist in other topic spaces like politics, history, science, and society. Balancing those two isn’t going to be easy and I don’t envy the closer. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, they may be useful for topics directly related to Evangelical Christianity, where we need a source that documents an Evangelical perspective reliably in the context of that perspective. If CBN does an interview with a leader or spokesperson from an Evangelical group like the Southern Baptist Convention, it may be the best source available, especially since one might assume that they would be the most likely to accurately reflect those views (and that such a leader or spokesperson could be more likely to be honest with such a source). Same for music. A Creationist museum like that Ark is a difficult one, they are likely to be one of the few sources covering it, but they obviously have a clear and admitted bias. Hyperion35 (talk) 17:00, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Regarding the topic area of society specifically, what are you seeing that makes you predict damage to the project? I'm not super familiar with the source, but I'm wondering what you've seen (and also the scope of what you mean by "society"). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• Depends on context. Having a bias does not automatically make a source unreliable. Having a FRINGE viewpoint can make it UNDUE in a given topic, but that is a separate issue from reliability (and one that also dependent on context).

I am increasingly thinking that we need to hive WP:BIASED off from WP:RS, and expand it... so we can more fully explain how bias interacts with both WP:V and WP:NPOV (and to better explain how to appropriately discuss and cite what biased sources say.) Blueboar (talk) 17:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn’t presenting a fact from a fringe viewpoint without acknowledging the fringe status of that viewpoint inherently be a reliability issue? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

No... How best to accurately describe a viewpoint is actually a Neutrality issue, not a reliability issue. Blueboar (talk) 20:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Why is that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:30, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Because to describe the nature of a viewpoint (accurately), we need to put our own opinions about the viewpoint to one side. If we are going to describe a viewpoint, our description needs to be based on how sources describe it (and not just one source... it should be a summary of a majority of sources). That is the core of our NPOV policy. Blueboar (talk) 00:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• Depends on context the context is above, and it's not about Having a bias does not automatically make a source unreliable. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:36, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• As WP:BIASEDSOURCES says, when dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. In light of this, the reliability looks like it would depend on context. It's probably reliable for the fact that Ken Ham became a science teacher in Australia and for other non-extraordinary biographical information described in the article. I wouldn't use it for facts on evolution, seeing as its particular bias will affect its reliability (with respect to fact-checking) regarding that topic. The question is more on which topics its bias affects; it seems to be mostly reliable (even its written coverage on China-issued sanctions against Johnnie Moore Jr. seems to be unobjectionable and its coverage of a story on dwindling bipartisanship doesn't appear to have any obvious factual errors or things that scream "this is a politically biased source to the extent it impacts reliability"). It seems to be politically and theologically conservative (and more or less self-describes as so), and I wouldn't generally use it as a sole for extraordinary facts (especially for BLPs and/or pre-history/history), but it seems fine when the topic doesn't really come into the crosshairs of its religious affiliation. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with points made by @Mikehawk10

based on WP:BIASEDSOURCES.HaughtonBrit (talk) 02:48, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Hm. Thus far everyone seems to be talking about WP:BIASEDSOURCES. I'll reiterate the initial question: whether this churnalism is normal for CBN. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Rhododendrites, As I said above, I've seen this exact situation before. As to it's frequency: I can't say, but I suspect it's as common as press releases from Christian groups big enough to catch CBN's eye. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@MPants at work: Sorry, I shouldn't have said "everyone". It's been a few days and I forgot that your first reply was relevant. The rest seem to be about the thing I was taking for granted above. It is, of course, uncontroversial that being biased doesn't disqualify a source. It's when a bias leads a source to sacrifice accuracy, fact-checking, etc. ... or, say, be so interested in promoting a particular perspective that it just publishes press releases which align with its interests, that they're called into question. So, yeah, I'm more interested in the quality of the source than its bias here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:50, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Rhododendrites, I'd personally treat it as a fine source for anything uncontroversial, like Christian bands, or the dates/organizers of events. For anything controversial, I'd avoid it at all costs.

And no worries about "everyone", as I was tempted to dive into the furious melee of agreement myself. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:37, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Note: I've added it to WP:UPSD, categorized as 'depends on topic' (yellow). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello. Here is a list of platforms that I need to know are usable as references when there are articles published on it offering significant coverage by independent authors. Need assistance with it. Please help as I am acquiring knowledge to become a better wikipedia editor. Was unable to find them on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Spam_blacklist and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#. Here is the list.

Daily Payoneer (https://www.dailypioneer.com/),Female First (https://www.femalefirst.co.uk/), NYK Daily (https://nykdaily.com/),Entrepreneur India (https://www.entrepreneur.com/), Haute Living (https://hauteliving.com/), JPost (https://www.jpost.com/), Ocean Drive (https://oceandrive.com/), V-Magazine (https://vmagazine.com/), Android Headlines (https://www.androidheadlines.com/), This is 50 (https://thisis50.com/), The Source (https://thesource.com/), Hype Magazine (https://www.thehypemagazine.com/), Hype Fresh (https://www.hypefresh.co/).

I think discussion on this can really help the community of Wikipedia editors. --Skybluepants24 (talk) 12:30, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Skybluepants24, that's a very diverse group of sources for which there is not going to be a singular answer. One of them, Entrepreneur (RSP entry) is on the perennial list but the list is not supposed to be an exhaustive one, you should check if there has been any previous discussions on the others in the archives of this noticeboard, there is a search bar for it at the top. It would also be helpful if you could elaborate on what context you want to use them in. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 14:22, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Most of these are sniped sites or black hat SEO and I would remove them from any article I saw them in. The Source's web content is no longer reliable as tehy allow pay-for-publishing without identifying it as such. BEACHIDICAE🌊 15:09, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Tayi Arajakate, i did search in the archives but could not find anything useful. I don't wish to use these platforms, I am just trying to build a database that will help me edit pages and create new ones. Is there any way i can get help with this? Appreciate your response.--Skybluepants24 (talk) 09:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Skybluepants24, I don't think this noticeboard can help you built an exhaustive database if that's even possible, regarding using particular sources for articles I would suggest opening sections on specific sources on this noticeboard in the more doubtful cases and otherwise use your own judgement, the page on independent sources will likely be the most helpful in how to do this in your case. Bringing up sources on the talk pages of relevant Wikiprojects could be helpful as well.

Regarding the sources, I would agree with Praxidicae that a lot of these are sniped sites or black hat SEOs which do not care about accuracy or attribution. In particular, femalefirst.co.uk and NYK Daily are a clear case of this, the others aren't as clear to me. Android Headlines is an obvious content farm. I know some of these are actual newspapers such as The Pioneer and The Jerusalem Post, of which the former is quite tabloidish and don't know the latter. There are also some American local magazines in there on whose quality I can't comment either. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 05:07, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Earlier, I was assessing the FA Bobby Eaton for WP:URFA/2020 and decided to check out the publisher Archeus Communications, which is cited in said article, as well as in a number of other wrestling articles. The books by that publisher are a few works by two authors (Gary Wills and Royal Duncan) about wrestling. When searching for this publisher online, I'm finding very little, Google books is only bringing up mentions to those said wrestling books, and searching on worldcat is only bringing up the wrestling books and two books by Will about job interviews and resumes. I find it a little concerning that this publisher is so obscure and only seems to publish books written by Will; can it be assumed that there's any sort of oversight going into works through this publisher, or should they be treated as self-published by Will? Hog Farm _Talk 21:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• "The bible of the sport." - The New York Times
• "The best pro wrestling reference book I've ever seen. A phenomenal publication and a great job of research." - Dave Meltzer, founder and editor of Wrestling Observer Newsletter
• "A fabulous book. Great reading for the diehard fan." - Bill Apter, longtime editor of Pro Wrestling Illustrated
• "My copy is dog-eared from daily use. A terrific resource." - Vince Russo, editor of WWF Magazine and World Championship Wrestling executive
• "A superlative reference tool." - 1997 Pro Wrestling Illustrated Almanac

The worst case scenario is that Gary Will's book would meet the criteria for WP:SPS if Archeus isn't a major publisher. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Here are a couple other stories from a reputable journalist that speak about the book and the diligent research behind it: Wrestling Title Histories an Essential Resource and Collecting Title Histories a Struggle of Will. Will's research is also lauded in the article Will Finds a Way for Toronto History Site, which includes the information that Dave Meltzer, perhaps the biggest name in wrestling reporting, contacted Will to ask for his help with research. GaryColemanFan (talk) 04:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Solie.org and Wrestling-Titles.com credit Royal Duncan and Gary Will with a lot of information for title histories on those sites. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 06:18, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The website, Kootenai Valley Times, is being used in the article Owen Benjamin about a zoning dispute between the article subject and his neighbors to make claims about "Benjamin's supposed use of his 10 acre property to form as a potential cult or 'Aryan Style' compound". The diff for the content being added to the Wikipedia page is here and a link to the source article is here. There is also a discussion at BLPN, where Morbidthoughts suggested I bring the source reliability issue here (WP:BLPN#Owen Benjamin). The website for the source is owned, edited, and managed by Mike Weland (see "Kootenai Valley Times" about page) with no evidence of editorial oversight or other processes for fact-checking, and the article about the zoning dispute is also written by Mike Weland, who lives in the same small community. Most of the article is quoting various aspects of the complaints against Benjamin, and the website in general has little content and many days have no more than one new posting, with most of the content looking like press releases from local schools, police, and community organizations. I believe this is a self-published source that should not generally be used on a BLP per WP:BLPSPS, especially not for this type of labeling. Any additional input is appreciated. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 23:24, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• And I'll say again, and I invoke User:MjolnirPants, that this looks like a small, local newspaper whose reporting we do not need to disparage just because it's small, and that it can be used with caution. In this case, what it reports on are things said in city or council meetings, on what various people said about this one thing, and there really is no reason to suppose that they are lying. Content should be handled with care, and opinions should clearly be phrased as such, of course. Drmies (talk) 00:02, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't think this is a case of the people lying at city council meetings or the website lying about what they said, but rather whether the source is reliable enough for including those types of labels and allegations on a BLP article. The reliability standards are meant to make the information in Wikipedia's articles better, not about disparaging sources. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Yea, this looks self-published. Weland seems to be the only writer for the site and he is the owner. There are two other employees, but it looks like they only deal with sales/advertising and not with editorial content. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 00:05, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

• It is an online newspaper/radio station serving a small town of 2500 people, supported by advertising from many local businesses. It was published on newsprint paper in the past. Weland is not the only writer. The paper recently published a detailed summary of the last Idaho legislative session written by Jim Woodward (politician), the local state senator. The content may seem banal to big city folks but after reading about ten articles, I see no signs of crank or kook content. They clearly have an interest in investigating the scourge of fentanyl addiction in their community, for example. I consider it a reliable source for news of Bonners Ferry, Idaho and surrounding Boundary County, Idaho. In the spirit of full disclosure, my great-grandparents settled in Northern Idaho around 1880, and I still have many relatives there. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:25, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
  • The articles by Jim Woodward read like editorials or guest posts rather than news articles [35], similar to this April article by Creston Mayor Ron Toyota [36] or this March article by the Boundary Community Hospital Marketing Director [37], which are all listed under the "News" category on the site. While there is a separate "Letters" category, the site does not seem to identify which articles are submitted editorials or whether those articles have any editorial oversight or fact-checking. Aside from a few articles by Bruce McClure and Deborah Byrd from another website, EarthSky.org (such as [38]), the other articles that had an author byline (going back to January in the "News" category) similarly look like submitted content rather than news content written by staff writers, such as [39] [40] [41] [42]. Being from a small town, there are many good sources for local community information, but that does not mean those sources are reliable enough for contentious labels in a BLP, especially when they are the only source using terms like "cult" (and not even in their own voice). – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 02:02, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
    • The other source is stronger and uses less value laden terminology, but the existence of two separate media outlets covering the issue in this lightly populated area indicates that it is worthy of inclusion. In my view, both references should stay in the article for the benefit of readers trying to learn more. I think the word "cult" should be removed. Boundary County, though, is the location of Ruby Ridge and that greatly influences the local discourse. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:35, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
      • I did not know that, and so thank you for that additional bit of information, which is very helpful to understanding the context. I think that is actually a good argument for directly mentioning the alleged "'Ruby Ridge style' compound" in the way the stronger source does rather than the "'Aryan Nations' style compound" from the Kootenai Valley Times source. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:52, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
        • For additional context, the Aryan Nations], considered a historically important nationwide white supremacist terrorist group, was headquartered for decades in Kootenai County, Idaho, a short distance south of Boundary County but still in the Idaho panhandle. Sane people in that part of Idaho are sensitive about these fanatics. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:00, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
• Here is some WP:USEBYOTHERS: [43][44][45][46] It is enough, for a small local paper, that I at least don't feel it's reasonable to keep calling it "self-published". Is there any other reason to be skeptical of them? --Aquillion (talk) 09:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
• I am a regular reader of the site, owing to some time I've spent in the region. It's a small-town newspaper, full stop. It has three employees (all stories are written by the majority owner, Mike Weland and the other two employees handle sales), is widely accepted locally, has been cited by other, larger outlets, and I challenge anyone disputing this to find an example of fake news on the site. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:47, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
• I would oppose the specific edit in dispute. A 3 person paper is hardly more than a self published blog in terms of editorial oversite. The issue in this case is the description is both subjective and loaded. Consider the difference between describing something as "a large home with a security fence" vs an "aryne style compound". One simply implies the size of the home and that the owner is concerned about security. The other suggests the owner may be racist. The use of this description suggests the editor/author may be biased with respect to the issue at hand and thus we should be careful about subjective comments/opinions within what might otherwise be a fact based article. Another question that could be raised here is if this content is DUE in the BLP article. Springee (talk) 13:01, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
• From what I've read so far, this would qualify as a self-published source. From WP: V "Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of content. Further examples of self-published sources include press releases, material contained within company websites, advertising campaigns, material published in media by the owner(s)/publisher(s) of the media group, self-released music albums and electoral manifestos" (emphasis mine). So in context of BLP's the source is unusable. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:14, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
• Springee raises an important question by asking about DUE WEIGHT. Even if we were to deem a 3 person “local news” site marginally reliable, I would question the appropriateness of using it in a BLP unless larger more reliable sources also report on the same information (and in which case, we can cite those sources). Blueboar (talk) 22:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

  Blueboar, I had a discussion with Masem about that, and both of us agreed and laid out reasons why coverage this sparse should be appropriate, given Benjamin's diminished celebrity. You can read it at WP:BLPN#Owen Benjamin. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:38, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

  • I would agree with Masem’s reasoning in that thread. I think any mention of the spat between Benjamin and his neighbors is basically UNDUE ... at this point. That could change in the future (if the story grows beyond being a local spat and gets reported on in more regional news sites), but right now it just does not rise to the level of being the sort of encyclopedic information that is suitable for a BLP. Blueboar (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

    I disagree, but I certainly find that to be a very reasonable position, and won't try to litigate it here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:08, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

The onus of proving it is rs lies with the editor who wants to use it. It probably does, because Weland was a reporter at KBFI and the site looks professional. But just because someone is qualified, does not necessarily mean the news service is. More importantly, as other editors have mentioned, weight requires more coverage than just a local newspaper. Presumably if it is important, national news sources will pick up on the story. TFD (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• I read the source when I lived right out side Bonners, I still read them. That said they are a self published source and should not be used. The edit in question uses Bonners Ferry Herald as well which is better. No comment on due weight for inclusion in the article. PackMecEng (talk) 16:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
• I find it funny that there are three editors in this thread with a local connection to such a sparsely populated part of the country. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  True facts! I was surprised you were there. Here is a picture I took at the black mountains south of Bonners.[47] My in laws retired up in Naples and we went with to help get the place ready. Lovely place but we missed having you know, things around. PackMecEng (talk) 02:34, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  PackMecEng, Very nice. I had some family up near Sandpoint, and a friend I made through them further North, with whom I bought some property, and we're planning a couple of cabins. Haven't done much more than clear the land, and Covid didn't help, but hopefully before too long I'll be summering up near Bonner's Ferry pretty regularly. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:41, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  Not super liberal Sandpoint!? Did you happen to see the kerfuffle with the dueling Trump sign vs the inclusiveness sign in Bonners? PackMecEng (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  PackMecEng, I did not, as I didn't make it up there in 2020, but I certainly caught it in the news. It gave me a good laugh. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:54, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

  I have a relative who is a judge in Sand Point. It is a town so small that she jokes that she has to check the docket each morning, to see if she needs to recuse because other relatives are parties in the cases. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

  Cullen328, If she's been a judge longer than 20 years, there's a good chance she's had a few official run-ins with my family from the area. My clan tends to lean heavily towards a certain hue of cervical vertebrae . ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

[48] How reliable is it? I'd like to have some feedback before I can use it as a source for a potential translation for this article. Thanks in advance for every answer. Nacaru 20:14, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Previously discussed in 2012 and February and May of 2019. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable, known for conspiracy theories and is terrorist group's Hamas unofficial channel in English.Free1Soul (talk) 15:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I haven't looked into this question, but Free1Soul's comment seems to be greatly exaggerated. MEMO has been smeared by its ideological opponents, which is presumably the basis for this user's comment, but we should look into it carefully. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Could you give examples citing sources to justify your comments?     ←   ZScarpia   13:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable Here[49], for example, we have a borderline anti-semitic cartoon, together with a quote from someone who calls the Israeli strikes in Gaza "war crimes". There is no mention of why Israel made airstrikes in Gaza. Although some degree of bias is acceptable, this strays too far. Adoring nanny (talk) 22:50, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

That is an inadequate description of the article, which is about ex-IAF pilot Yonatan Shapira. You wrote: '... together with a quote from someone who calls the Israeli strikes in Gaza "war crimes".' The phrase you included in quotation marks, "war crimes", doesn't appear in the article. The closest that anything comes to that, is not some extraneous "someone", but the subject of the article himself: 'A former Israeli Air Force pilot, Yonatan Shapira, has described the Israeli government and army as "terrorist organisations" run by "war criminals."' You describe the attached cartoon by Mohammad Saba'aneh as "borderline anti-semitic", using that as a justification for describing MEMO as unreliable. Could you provide a justification for your description? Would you describe any source which publishes a cartoon of a soldier acting oppressively as unreliable, or only when the soldier in question is acting in a "good cause"?     ←   ZScarpia   13:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Unreliable, small website with extremist ties.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 08:21, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
• Unreliable fringe, conspiracy site. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment. The skeptical views above appear to be all reflex lockstep 'judgments' (see Falk discussed below, vigorously opposed by the same group) against MEM, some in part based on the fact that the MEM page lines up several quotes from pro-Israeli spokesmen dismissing it as a Hamas/terrorist linked conspiracy site. Adoring nanny takes exception for example to MEM citing a quote from an Israeli pilot stating his view that bombing Gaza is a war crime. Well, the article registers that fact. The pilot in question did express that view. Stating a view that an editor dislikes cannot be used to discredit the source. If so the London Review of Books would be unreliable because the other day it noted that Gilad Sharon, Ariel Sharon's son, suggested the following as a 'solution' to the conflict with Gaza: ‘You strangle them. No water, no electricity, no food, no gas, no medical treatments. Nothing.' Likewise Il Giornale (a pro-Israel right wing newspaper) would be deemed not RS because the same Sharon is reported as saying the solution for Gaza is to raze it to the ground, as the Americans did with Hiroshima because the Japanese dragged their feet over surrendering. I don't use MEM much at all. But it runs a lot of reportage and carries translations from Middle Eastern agencies like Anadolou (Turkish) that the mainstream ignore.Nishidani (talk) 08:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

• Should only be used with attribution, the MEM is most certainly not an official arm of Hamas or anything along those lines, but they are very explicitly a biased organisation with regards to anything to do with politics or the Israel-Palestine conflict to a far greater degree than most organisations, so anything they say on those matters should be attributed. Devonian Wombat (talk) 04:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
• Attribution in some circumstances. The suggestion that the website is "Hamas's official channel in English" is baseless and unsupported by any evidence. The idea that it is a "fringe conspiracy site" had not been supported by any evidence here. Both these statements carry no weight, as they seem simply to be statements of political position and dislike of the political stance of the website. I would suggest that the site is biased on the question of Palestine, as are all Israeli and Arab news organisations (perhaps all news organisations full stop) and that on questions relating to Palestine it should be attributed in cases where there is the possibility that the claim made might be disputed in any way. Boynamedsue (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

  • The Daily Telegraph: "Other organisations at Crown House are Middle East Monitor (Memo), a news site which promotes a strongly pro-Brotherhood and pro-Hamas view of the region. Memo’s director, Daud Abdullah, is also a leader of the Brotherhood-linked British Muslim Initiative, set up and run by the Brotherhood activist Anas al-Tikriti and two senior figures in Hamas. Memo’s “senior editor”, Ibrahim Hewitt, is chairman of Interpal, the Hamas and Brotherhood-linked charity."[50]
  • The Times of Israel: "MEMO, Rich added, had repeatedly peddled conspiracy theories and myths “about Jews, Zionists, money and power. This has included questioning the suitability of Matthew Gould for the post of UK ambassador to Israel simply because he was Jewish.”[51]
  • BBC News: "One of his UK hosts, the London-based Middle East Monitor - a pro-Hamas publication" [52]
  • Haartez: " Corbyn is also scheduled to appear soon at a conference of the conspiracy-theory peddling anti-Israel organization Middle East Monitor, along with the anti-Semitic and Holocaust denier cartoonist Carlos Latuff."[53]
  • Jewish News: "The piece was originally written by an anti-Israel activist and posted on Middle East Monitor (MEMO), a self-ascribed news site that has links to the Muslim Brotherhood...directed by Daoud Abdullah, a senior researcher at the London-based Palestinian Return Centre – an organisation outlawed in Israel for its connections with Hamas and acting as the terror group’s de-facto arm across Europe...The material produced by MEMO and MEE is heavily shared on the official Hamas website and social media accounts. It is not merely copied but proudly displayed with the name of the UK site. In 2016 Hamas posted material from these two sources 51 times, making for an astounding 42% of all external tweets...And so, the next time you read an article on MEMO or MEE, written by a “senior editor”, “journalist ” or “Middle East expert”, don’t forget that you’re reading an article edited by the head of a charity with documented links to funding terror, including festivals of hatred showcasing children encouraged to murder."[54]
  • i24 News: "MEMO is a UK-based Islamist pressure group, which the UK Jewish community’s antisemitism watchdog accuses of crossing the line into antisemitism. The CST told i24NEWS: “MEMO’s work includes supposed anti-Zionism that is actually strikingly familiar from older forms of antisemitism, but with Jews removed and so-called Zionists used instead.”[55]

  Is this enough evidence for you? Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 04:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Not really, no. Being pro-Hamas does not disqualify a source, as I said above. Nor does being pro-Likud, pro-Tory, pro-Democrat or pro-Sinn Fein. If it were "Hamas's unofficial channel in English", suggesting direct Hamas control, as the user said above, that, for me, would mean it is not a valid source. Just as the pro-Israeli sites you link above which are linked to the state of Israel and support its position should not be discounted merely for that fact. Accusations of antisemitism are a slight concern, but there are accusations of racism against many publications, the existence of such accusations does not disqualify those sources. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that pretty much every notable source or organisation that expresses a pro-Palestinian or especially pro-Hamas viewpoint will be accused of antisemitism by somebody at some point. In some cases those claims will be correct, in others they will have no connection with reality. The simple existence of such claims is therefore insufficient to impact reliability. Thryduulf (talk) 19:01, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Do you have links to articles by MEMO that have peddled these "conspiracy theories and myths"? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree with this, the nature of these alleged conspiracy theories is important. It is very common for people to use the term "conspiracy theory" completely inaccurately. And publishing conspiracy theories on occasion evidently does not make a source unreliable. The Telegraph and other reliable sources have been accused of this, and with some justification tbh. And if we disregarded any American media organisation that had dabbled in Russiagate conspiracy theories, we wouldn't have much left...Boynamedsue (talk) 08:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the BBC article cited, editors might like to note that its author was John Ware, perhaps not the most impartial person to have contributed material touching on Israel and politics to it.[56][57] Ware is, of course, part of the consortium now running The Jewish Chronicle, not an ally of MEMO. Regarding claims attributed to Dave Rich, that MEMO objected to the appointment of Matthew Gould as UK ambassador to Israel solely on the grounds that he is Jewish, the truth of that can be judged by reading the relevant MEMO article itself. Gould was, of course, involved in the meetings of himself, Liam Fox, Adam Werritty and Israeli officials which led to the resignation of Fox.[58][59]     ←   ZScarpia   22:44, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• Not reliable. Small website without a positive reputation. Hamas links and antisemitism an issue. Jill Jacobs for instance points out in The Washington Post that MEMO has engaged in temple denial, which is antisemitic denial of history. 11Fox11 (talk) 07:51, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem here is the use of the word "alleged" to qualify "temple" in a headline. You see, if this is the kind of thing that is being argued as "antisemitism" sufficient to disqualify a source it is somewhat unsurprising that allegations of antisemitism in this type of source fail to convince so many users here. The Jerusalem Post frequently engages in Nakba denialism and denials of the Deir Yassin massacre, and the racist myth that Palestinians were immigrants to Palestine, and yet this is considered fine, apparently. Yes, there may be areas where any media organisation might have blindspots and biases, and this organisation is not an authority on the history of Palestine, but nobody is seeking to use it as such. This is, unfortunately, another case in which Israeli sources are held to different standards than Palestinian ones for political reasons. A kind of wikipedia apartheid, if you will. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:51, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Reading through this, it ain't just the headline, the body of the article writes that Israeli Culture Minister Miri Regev has suggested the government allocate 250 million shekels ($50 million) for excavation works to explore the foundations of the alleged Jewish Temple beneath Islam's sacred Al-Aqsa Mosque, Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth revealed yesterday (emphasis added). With respect to The Jerusalem Post, the first link that you've presented is a 2008 publication from Friends of Al-Aqsa that doesn't accuse J-Post of Nakba denialism. The second and third sources (from J-Post itself) are labeled newspaper blogs. This is in sharp contrast to the MEM piece, which is labeled as "news" on the website and would reflect upon the editorial standards of Middle East Monitor as it applies to news. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 01:25, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

To comment further, the piece from The Washington Post is also an opinion piece, so tread carefully. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 01:29, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

To the point of reliability, Middle East Monitor has been cited in the Guardian as a "a thinktank with Palestinian sympathies", the BBC, its interviews cited by the NYTimes. Its not a news organization, its more of a partisan think tank, and in general I would suggest those be avoided, and that is true for all sides including JCPA and other such sites that are cited regularly. The bs above about "Hamas unofficial channel in English" is just that. By the rules, can sometimes be used attributed. But in general if somebody asks for a better source just get a better source. For interviews and such think it is fine on its own. nableezy - 16:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• Should only be used with attribution sounds about right. It appears to have a strong lean but quickly searching, I'm not seeing evidence that it gets facts wrong. Hobit (talk) 13:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• https://www.jazzdisco.org/

The Jazz Discography Project ( jazzdisco.org ) has been cited on Wikipedia for about 12 years, with Dickdock referencing them in a few articles in 2009, including New York Journeyman – Complete Recordings. The website has been cited or listed as an external link in about 500 articles since then.

Nobuaki Togashi, Kohji "Shaolin" Matsubayashi and Masayuki Hatta are listed as the editorial team at jazzdisco.org. The project appears to be attempting to list every appearance of prominent jazz musicians in recording sessions. They don't have a mission statement.

I looked at a handful of musician entries at the website, and none of the sources were cited. It's not clear where jazzdisco.org is getting their information. To me, it looks like they are copying mostly from jazzdiscography.com and other websites. I fear their jazz project will suffer from circular reporting such that a wrong entry published in a blog somewhere will end up repeated by jazzdisco.org.

On the other hand, Brian Rust started organizing jazz session details from the 1940s onward, and he published books documenting jazz sessions. The website JazzDiscography.com is based on Rust's work. The JazzDiscography.com people explain their philosophy and their methods, crediting Rust extensively, but the Jazzdisco.org website does not list any sources. Binksternet (talk) 19:23, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that jazzdiscography.com is based on Rust's work, except in some aspects of approach. I believe that Rust didn't have much interest in post-WWII recordings. The accusation that jazzdisco.org is plagiarising from jazzdiscography.com is a serious one. jazzdiscography list 1 and jazzdiscography list 2 present the coverage of artists. Here's jazzdisco's for comparison. The only overlap in the first ten listed at jazzdisco is Tina Brooks (I haven't looked beyond these ten). But jazzdiscography presents only his recordings as a leader, while jazzdisco covers his recordings as a leader and as a sideman. jazzdisco also lists Japanese releases, which jazzdiscography does not. So, based on this very limited check, the accusation isn't substantiated. Maybe jazzdisco is copying from other websites... which ones?

Discographies in the jazz world often cite very few sources; instead, they offer acknowledgements. I'm looking at a discography of Pepper Adams: 1.5 pages in the bibliography versus 3 pages (mostly lists of names) of acknowledgements. And copying (with amendments) from other discographies is common – Tom Lord's is/was notorious for this. EddieHugh (talk) 21:07, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Searching what I have easy access to, I find jazzdisco used in the following:

• West & Titlebaum Teaching School Jazz: Perspectives, Principles, and Strategies Oxford University Press ("jazzdisco.org, which provides an extensive chronological discography for most major jazz artists")
• Gluck The Miles Davis Lost Quintet and Other Revolutionary Ensembles The University of Chicago Press (uses it as a source)
• Giddins Celebrating Bird: The Triumph of Charlie Parker University of Minnesota Press (uses it as a source)
• Adlington Sound Commitments: Avant-Garde Music and the Sixties Oxford University Press (uses it as a source)
• Goodman Mingus Speaks University of California Press (refers readers to it)
• Petersen & Rehak The Music and Life of Theodore "Fats" Navarro Scarecrow Press (listed in 'discographies' section)
• Myers Why Jazz Happened University of California Press (uses it as a source) EddieHugh (talk) 21:31, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Anyone have any thoughts on the reliability of TheCubanHistory.com as a source? An editor at Cuba has been using it recently to add to the article. The source appears to be Wordpress blog. The blogger appears to also Tweet under the same id, i.e., @TheCubanHistory, and link from Twitter to his blog. He's been at it a long time, and he certainly seems knowledgeable, but there's never any sources, and it just looks like a one-man SPS. It could just be a labor of love, but I haven't examined it enough to determine if he might have a particular PoV; sources on Cuba not infrequently do. How are such things usually handled? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 10:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

The site links to the twitter account of Arnoldo Varona, who appears to have been published relevantly on several occasions in Venezuela. I don't know enough about the journal concerned to say whether it engages in peer-review and fact-checking, but I have found his work cited in revista claseshistoria, a source which I strongly suspect not to be RS. I would say that the fact he is not directly putting his name on this website, and that, although he is possibly published he doesn't seem to be widely cited, means this is not RS. You will always find something better as a source, and if this is the only source, you would have to ask yourself why. --Boynamedsue (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of its reliability, I would avoid it as a source because it is tertiary. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based primarily on secondary sources. Tertiary sources are based on secondary sources, essentially the author(s) of Cuban History have read secondary sources and summarized them. That's something we should do ourselves. It helps to ensure accuracy because we are using the secondary sources first hand. Also, Cuban History like most tertiary sources lacks citations. Citations are helpful to readers who want to research a topic and to editors who try to resolve differences in sources. For example if a birthdate in two sources differ it is helpful to follow the footnotes to see where each got their dates. Then we can see if it supports the date used. TFD (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, The Four Deuces and Boynamedsue; this is good feedback. I'll link this discussion from Talk:Cuba for the benefit of editors there. More opinions always welcome. Mathglot (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Can Bella Naija [60] be considered a reliable source for entertainment news? Thank you. TheSokks_(talk) 11:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems to be described as a blog. I checked the about us and the our team sections, but they both directed to the same list of email addresses to contact. No names, no editorial board. Some articles have named writers, but no idea if they are regular staff writers or not. Looks like scrapings from twitter and instagram. I would say not a R.S. Curdle (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

• It is a blog and can not be used as a reliable source. Celestina007 (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I found this article, I was thinking about using it as a source for sex and oogamy. Is it reliable in y’all’s opinion?CycoMa (talk) 00:58, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems to be published by Cell Press, a part of Elsevier that also publishes the high-impact biology journal Cell. Looking at the source on the website of the publisher [61], the article is labeled as a "dispatch". Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be peer reviewed; the current list of article types doesn't include it as such, but lists it as a portion of the "magazine section" of the journal. I don't think this would qualify as a WP:MEDRS, though I'd say it's probably reliable inasmuch as it is a reliable source of news. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:40, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Current Biology appears to be a legitimate academic journal, though the article is marked as a "dispatch" rather than a peer reviewed submission. That being said, it would still have to go through normal journal editorial processes, and the article doesn't seem to be making any patently absurd claims, so I would say reliable. Vahurzpu (talk) 03:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I’m found [this] on springerlink. I’m haven’t read the whole thing yet but it appears to support the Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria thing.

Does it appear to be reliable to y’all?CycoMa (talk) 20:32, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh yeah sorry if it’s pay walled, it wasn’t pay walled when I stumbled upon it.CycoMa (talk) 20:34, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

It is a letter to the editor. At best it could be used for the opinions of its authors. --Aquillion (talk) 21:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Would Game World Navigator (Навигатор игрового мира) be considered a reliable source on video games, per this discussion? I'm considering adding it as reliable to WikiProject Video games/Sources. Tyrone Madera (talk) 23:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

This blog counts the images of the destroyed tanks to figure what is destroyed. It's the most reliable way to figure casualties if you ask me .........https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2020/02/the-idlib-turkey-shoot-destruction-and.html Operation Spring Shield 85.103.50.211 (talk) 17:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

See WP:OR. We don't know what that is an image of, where it is from, what its provenance is, and what is the reliability of the organization that is presenting the narrative behind the image. If a reliable news organization or other source wants to do that research and stake their reputation on it, then we can follow what they write. We don't do the job of reliable sources for them. We just cite their work. --Jayron32 18:07, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

images are taken by Turkish drones 85.103.50.211 (talk) 20:09, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Says who? Who analyzed the images? Who did the counting? Who verified the story? Etc. --Jayron32 01:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stijn-mitzer-4a9a9419a/ and https://www.linkedin.com/in/joost-oliemans-1628a091 as it says in the article 85.103.50.211 (talk) 08:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd understand Jakub Janovský doing the analysis, though whether he is an expert is highly dubious. Sure, he has written two reports in Bellingcat about the Syrian War, but his job is network engineering and not military history - we don't just include military history enthusiasts' accounts unless they are recognised in their field (and not that he seems to be particularly so). Google Scholar searches give negative results, so it's a mixed case here.

Stijn Mitzer and Joost Oliemans apparently specialise in the military of North Korea, but, again, no mentions of them having expertise in the Syrian War, so again, a mixed bag. Their scholarly work remains to be seen. The previous discussion said they might be subject matter experts, but you really should look for better info in other sources, which are less of "well, yes and no" and more of "sure". I will be fine if you cite it if this specific blog post is cited in a few books/articles written by other subject experts, but I'd still refrain from using the source if that's the only source of information.Szmenderowiecki (talk) 09:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

riiiiiiiiight, yet the article includes a russian imageboard as a source for destroyed turkish equipment for more than a year lmfao, sounds reasonable to me https://lostarmour.info/syria/item.php?id=22513 85.103.50.211 (talk) 09:47, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Please read wp:rs and wp:sps.Slatersteven (talk) 09:54, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

please read wp;crusader mindset, oh wait, there isn't such a rule but there should be 85.103.50.211 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Anonymous editor, I suggest you immediately read WP:RGW and especially WP:NPA. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:16, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@85.103.50.211: The word you're looking for is a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 00:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

85: If you believe a source doesn't comply with our sourcing requirements, the correct solution is to discuss removing it and anything sourced solely to it, probably first at the article talk page and then somewhere else maybe here if you cannot get consensus. It isn't to add more unacceptable sources. Nil Einne (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I had a quick look and found Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 285#lostarmour.info and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 313#lostarmour.info which seem to agree it's not an RS and I checked the page and AFAICT the infobox content of concern lacked and other sources (or mention in the body for that matter) so I removed them. While we thank you for alerting us to the problem, you did not need to start off by trying to add more crappily sourced content. Nil Einne (talk) 14:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm reviewing an article for the mainpage DYK and have come across the use of Healthgrades.com being used to cite information and link to primary sources for a BLP. It's not at all what I would normally consider a reliable secondary source. Normally I would dismiss this out of hand but the page claim is about state licenses (more accurately, whether these have been revoked, suspended or surrendered.) Statements about such licensure (under disciplinary actions) appear to be linked to case numbers and primary documents. For example, the statement that the subject has voluntarily surrendered his medical license in New York is being used to verify the subject was once licensed to practice medicine in New York. A routine calculation perhaps.

Another source I'm seeing is CourthouseNews.com. This is being used to verify assertions of wrongdoing on the part of the subject, sometimes pointing to courthouse documents (primary sources). I have no doubt that members of the legal profession might find such information useful but I have doubts we can use this to make assertions about a BLP. What do others think? BusterD (talk) 15:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Article has been put up for speedy deletion now, but I'm still interested in the sources. BusterD (talk) 15:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Courthouse news is fine to augment existing legal case info from other assured RSes but I would definitely not use it for backing BLP information if its the only source for it; they are too close to simply repeating the court documents and being just a primary source to be used that way. --Masem (t) 16:02, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Heathgrades? Anyone? I think it's slightly more reliable than Glassdoor, but that's not saying much. BusterD (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

The criteria for a secondary source is that there has to be some analysis, evaluation, or improvement of primary sources. Just taking court documents and republishing the outcome doesn't count. In the case of Healthgrades, I think it's clear they're not really doing anything with the documents beyond just repeating what the documents have said akin to a background check service (the heading they describe the licensing information under). WP:BLPPRIMARY makes it clear that we don't use court documents to support assertions about a living person, and while medical boards aren't actually courts I believe using documents from a quasi-judicial entity such as a medical board falls under the spirit of the rule at least.

In terms of Courthouse News though, I think it's clear they're a reliable and secondary source. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Courthouse News seems like a reliable source. Its about page spells out that it links directly back to primary source documents, and it appears to be an intentional choice in order to better provide lawyers with the underlying materials so that they can independently verify the veracity of the claim. There appears to be some sort of team in place. They seem like a high-quality reliable source for the topic of civil litigation. I could definitely see an argument that content only reflected on the site may not be WP:DUE, owing to its specialist market focus, though I don't think that impugns the reliability of the site itself. But, owing to that same focus, I would personally feel comfortable using it to support facts in a BLP regarding the occurrence of convictions, the filing of charges, the length of sentences, and the like. Healthgrades seems like a user-generated review site, which would be unreliable and almost always undue for inclusion within an article. At best, the bios might be considered WP:SPS, but that would never be acceptable unless there is evidence that the subject of the Healthgrades page wrote the bio themselves (and then it only be OK for uncontroversial statements about self). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)