Talk:Tajiks of Xinjiang

I have studied about the Tajiks in China for more than a decade. I've looked at Chinese, Tajik, and English language sources. I have NEVER seen anyone refer to the Tajiks of China as Pamiris. I also wrote the original "Pamiri people" article, so I don't feel that I am being anti-Pamiri in my statements. I have placed "fact" tags where "Pamiri" has been used to describe the Tajik population of China. I'd love to see some sources that prove me wrong.David Straub (talk) 22:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

  Done--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 13:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• P.S. The change-title action. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 13:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

David, can you recommend an unambiguous title for this article? Sarikoli Tajiks? Chinese Tajiks? Mountain Tajiks?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 01:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

"Tajiks of China" is not a bad title (it's better than "Tajiks in China"). Titles such as "Mountain Tajiks", "'Plateau Tajiks" or "Chinese Tajiks" are not appropriate (they are not common in English books or academic articles). In this case, a descriptive title is much better. Alefbe (talk) 02:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

P.S. "Tajiks of Xinjiang" (not "Tajiks in Xinjiang") is also a good option. Alefbe (talk) 03:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Do all of these people live in China? The infobox seems to say that some live in Tajikistan (I apologise for my lack of knowledge on this subject).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

The infobox should become consistent with the topic of the page. This page is about the minority ethnic group in Xinjiang who speak various Eastern Iranian languages. Although most of them speak Sarikoli and most of the speakers of Sarikoli are in Xinjiang, this page is not primarily about the Sarikoli language. Alefbe (talk) 03:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Now the problem is:

1. There're some Sarikoli Tajiks in Tajikistan (1000~2000, inhabitant), so we can't use the name "Tajiks of China" or "Tajiks in China".
2. There're some Wakhi Tajiks in China, they moved to Tashkurgan in Qing dynasty, so we can't call them "Sarikoli Tajiks".
3. Tajiks in China wants to be called Tajik people, so we can't call them "Pamiri people in China".
4. I searched Chinese articles, some of them mentioned "they differ from the major Tajiks in central Asia - plain Tajik", for disambigation, they call them "plateau Tajiks" in Chinese and "highland Tajiks" in English.
5. Some Chinese articles mentioned "Tajiks - People of (Those who live in) Pamiri plateau", but none of them mentioned "Pamiri people".

--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 07:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Any objection with Tajiks of Xinjiang? Alefbe (talk) 20:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I have no objection to that title. If we know what the autonym used by these people is (which would require that there is one autonym consistently used by them), I would also consider treating this as a special case in view of the polysemy of "Tajik" and using the autonym instead. Other than that, I think Tajiks of Xinjiang is the best option.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

There're some Sarikoli Tajiks in Tajikistan (1000~2000, inhabitant), so we can't use the name "Tajiks of Xinjiang". --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 05:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Maybe the name "Tajiks of pan-Pamiri area" is more accurate title. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 05:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

This page is not about all the Pamiri people (for that we have Pamiri people), but a subset of them. This page is about the Eastern-Iranian-speaking people of Xinjiang (who are referred to as Tajiks, in China). Alefbe (talk) 05:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

That's right, so I said "Tajiks of pan-Pamiri area" not "Pamiris of pan-Pamiri area". Also, I think "Tajiks of pan-Tashkurgan area" is a good name. However, all of them are man-made name, so I think it's better to use the already-exist name - "plateau Tajiks". --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 12:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

P.S. "pan-Tashkurgan" does not limit the distribution of them, since "pan-Tashkurgan" is not "Tashkurgan". "Tajiks of China" and "Tajiks of Xinjiang" are man-made name, too. Also, these 2 name limit the distribution of plateau Tajiks. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 12:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

"Tajiks of Xinjiang" is a descriptive title that precisely defines them. "Plateau Tajiks" is not a descriptive title and is not popular in English books (search google books or google scholar), so it's not appropriate for the title of these page (being widely used is very important for non-descriptive titles). Good descriptive titles should be made of precise terms (which are also common in English books and articles). "pan-Tashkurgan area" is not a well-known or well-defined term. Alefbe (talk) 15:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

1. "Tajiks of Xinjiang" does never precisely define them: since there're Sarikoli people in Tadjikistan;
2. "Plateau Tajiks" is a descriptive title - it discribes them by Geographics.
3. Why "pan-Tashkurgan area" is not a well-defined term? (though I don't think it's the best title, too.)

--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 11:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Mountain Tajiks (or its variants) refers to all Pamiris and this page is not about all Pamiris, so it is not a good title for this page. Alefbe (talk) 01:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

There seems to be some degree of disagreement about what the topic of this article should be. Let's address that directly. Yu Hai seems to be arguing that this article is about X group of people (known as Tǎjíkèzú in Chinese) regardless of where they live. Alefbe, on the other hand, argues that this article is about the X group's population in China specifically (there are lots of articles like that, such as Vietnamese people in China and ethnic Mongols in China). So, which should it be? I would like to ask, regarding Yu Hai's suggestion, is it redundant with some other existing article? My impression is that Tǎjíkèzú might simply be a term used in Chinese to refer to any East Iranian-speaking groups that live in the PRC. If that's the case, then an article about "Tǎjíkèzú people wherever they live" would just be an article about East Iranian speakers, which I don't think is what this article is supposed to be.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 23:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I think there's some subtle difference bewteen highland Tajiks and East Iranian-speakers - highland Tajiks does not cover all groups in East Iranian-speakers. Also there's no such article called East Iranian-speakers in Wikipedia, and such a name can't be a title of an encyclopedia. There's an article called Pamiri people, but it's not same to highland Tajiks, too. And Tajiks in China didn't want to be called names other than Tajiks. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

What is the relationship between the "Highland Tajiks" and the Pamiris?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 23:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Highland Tajiks are Sarikoli people all over the world and Wakhi people in China, who migrated here in 1800s as refugees and have lived together with Sarikoli people. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Mountain Tajiks (or its variants) is just a less common name for Pamiris. Alefbe (talk) 01:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

See ↑ and another difference is "Tajiks" is the very name Sarikoli people want to be called (at least in 1950s). --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I don't know why 虞海 keeps changing the title to "Plateau Tajiks", and other terms. It is like falsely claiming Kurds as Mountain Turks. Pamiris in China speak Eastern Iranian languages and do NOT understand Persian/Tajik language. The title "Tajiks of Xinjiang" is misleading and not correct. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 04:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

1. Eastern Iranian languages=Eastern Persian languages, but I agree that they do not speak Persian at all.
2. There're 2 Tajik languages - Plain Tajik language (which is often called Tajik language directly) and Plateau Tajik language (which by no mean is equal to Tajik language in Tajikistan). Plateau Tajiks speak Plateau Tajik language (incl. Sarikoli dialect and Wakhi dialect).
3. It's similar to the relation between the Greek-Macedonia and Yugoslav-Macedonia, where Yugoslav-Macedonia is often called Macedonia directly.
4. I'm sorry I didn't take your idea into consideration, for I didn't think massage sent by an IP of an educational institution take it serious (I thought it's merely a message for joking or something).

--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

1. Actually, Persian/Tajik is Western Iranian and came from Fars. Eastern Iranian is another, distantly related, group of languages that originate in Afghanistan/Bactria/Scythia etc.
2. It depends on the sources one use.
3. I agree. There are 3 different ethnic groups - Ancient Macedonians, Slavics Macedonians and even Greeks Macedonians.
4. Thanks for the response! 116.58.100.78 (talk) 05:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry, but what's the point? --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

In Turkic language, "Tajik" originally referred to Pamiris, medieval Bactrians, Sogdians and Chorasmians, and Pashtuns etc - i.e. East Iranian. (Not Persians that are Southwest Iranian and didn't live in the area 1000 years before.) But in English wikipedia, unlike in Turkic, unfortunately, "Tajik" refers to Central Asian Persian. I think the meaning of "Tajik" has changed and the term can not be used here.

See Tajiks[1] "Language: Darī; Tajiki dialects. Of the basic Mediterranean sub-stock, they show Mongoloid attributes increasingly from south to north."

For Pamiri people, I think the terms "Pamiri" or "Ghalcha" are better, and "Tajik" is wrong, although historically "Tajik" was used in Turkic language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.58.100.78 (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I think there are some points missing in the above arguments, that is, the term "Tajik" is what is officially designated the name of the this group in China today and this is the word that this population use to identify themselves. In addition, I dare someone to show me a piece of literature from a reputable source, and that has been written in the last half-century, that reference to this group by any other term. You will find the term Sarikoli and Wakhi used, but these are sub-terms that refer to linguistic groups within the Tajik population. And please double check your sources with any Chinese language sources. The Tajiks in China have almost no written records in their own languages and today virtually everything written in China about the Tajiks is written in Chinese, including materials written by Chinese Tajik scholars about their own community. As for the above comment, "For Pamiri people, I think the terms "Pamiri" or "Ghalcha" are better, and "Tajik" is wrong, although historically "Tajik" was used in Turkic language," show me your sources David Straub (talk) 22:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the response. But you seem to not know that "Tajik" is not Pamiri word and not commonly used by the people themselves. The original self-identification of Pamiris is Badakhshani (not Tajik). The different tribes are called Khik, Sarikoli etc. In Soviet, Chinese and Tajikistan sources, "Tajik" is used and their identity is supressed that you seem to be supporting. Academia use the term "Pamiri people" for them, which is what we should be using. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 04:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

First, show me a pre-Soviet reference that uses the term Pamiri. The Pamirs before 1900 was not a unified political unit and the Wakhi, Shughni, Sarikoli, Kyrgyz etc fought among themselves, captured each others peoples for the slave trade, and openly courted alliances with outside powers. If anything, the prevailing term of identity was most likely Ismaili, not an ethnic one, such as Pamiri, Badakhshan, or Tajik. The term "Pamiri" was in fact promoted by Soviet authorities. Second, you're comment that "'Tajik' is used and their identity is supressed that you seem to be supporting," is an overt personal attack against me and a violation of wikipedia rules. And if you want to attack me personally, why don't you sign in and present your real name? David Straub (talk) 17:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Tajiks uses the word "Taji" refers to their crown, no matter^{[citation needed]} western Iranian or eastern Iranian. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 09:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

In Afghanistan, the terms used for the people in eastern Badakhshan province are "Badakhshani" and "Pamiri". Historically "Badakhshani" was used, but now "Pamiri" is more commonly used (see Afghan national anthem). 116.58.100.78 (talk) 04:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

In Western Region nations, people called East Iranian speakers, West Iranian speakers and Arabic people Taji, and when this word transcripted into Chinese, is "大食". Nowadays, Sarikoli people themselves recognized this name. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

My take on this (perhaps surprisingly lively) debate is that this entry ought to be little more than a disambiguation page to clarify the name for the Chinese "Tajik" nationality. The existing Pamiri pages, both on language and ethnicity, are good and interested readers ought to be directed to them; the only distinctive issue here, in my view, is that (for potentially interesting but strictly historiographical reasons) there is confusion about the term "Tajik." As DS points out above, the basic fact of the matter here is that Tajik is a 'nationality' in the PRC. To me, that's about all you need to say beyond clarifying the distinction between different uses of the term.Penalba2000 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC).Reply

As for David Straub's comment "In addition, I dare someone to show me a piece of literature from a reputable source, and that has been written in the last half-century, that reference to this group by any other term."

Here is a source about Pamiri people in Tajikistan: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,463af2212,49709ec52,49749c9e37,0.html PAMIRIS: "Pamiris are considered 'Tajik' by the authorities in Dushanbe, but they are widely considered to constitute a separate ethnic group, differing from Tajiks in terms of language, religion and culture. Pamiri languages are a Southeastern branch of the Iranian language family. Additionally, while most Tajiks are Sunni, Pamiris are followers of the Ismaili branch of Shia Islam. They refer to themselves as Badakhshani or Pomir in their own languages."

And another source: "There are about 50,000 people living in the Tajik Autonomous District identified as Tajiks in the Chinese census. However, these people can be called Tajiks only in the broadest sense. The Sarikoli and Wakhi Chinese Pamir nationalities, as well as the Tajik, Pakistani and Afghan Pamir nationalities who live in Chinese Pamir, speak languages belonging to the Eastern Iranian language group, whereas Tajik is linked to Western Iranian."

Can you now see that whenever there is reputable source, they are called Pamiri people? Or still not? 116.58.100.78 (talk) 05:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

These sources confirm Pamiri people have no close relation with Persian Tajiks proper.

I suggest to move the article to Pamiris of China. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 06:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

My friend, I know Igor Rotar. He's a fine journalist, but he does not speak Chinese and he concentrated his work in ex-Soviet Central Asia, where the term "Pamiri" is commonly used. I could post 100 sources here in Chinese, including those writting by Chinese Tajiks, that states they are indeed referred to at "Tajiks" in all Chinese language sources. By the way, it would help if you signed your name to your statements.

As for the other UN source, read the first sentence "Pamiris are considered 'Tajik' by the authorities in Dushanbe, but they are widely considered to constitute a separate ethnic group, differing from Tajiks in terms of language, religion and culture." This source itself states that the official term in Tajikistan is "Tajik" and that there is no concensus in Tajikistan about this issue. I am not disputing that the Pamiri exists in Tajikistan and that calling the population in Gorno-Badakhshan Tajik is controversial, but calling the Ismaili Pamiri-language speaking population in Afghanistan or China "Pamiris" is also controversial and not common at all in the sources written in thouse countries. Besides, there are certainly many "Pamiris" in Tajikistan who would also consider themselves "Tajiks", ask Davlat Khudonazarov.

I think what is happening to this Tajiks of Xinjiang page is getting pretty close to vandalism and is definately in violation the NPOV policy of wikipedia. I am flying to China tomorrow. I'll address this issue more next week when I get to my final destination there.David Straub (talk) 12:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

The point is that in this article that term should be used which academia prefer (i.e. "Pamiri"), instead of using a controversial term in the title. You are wrong - the term Pamiri is common in Afghanistan. (Tajik is never used for Pamiris atleast in Afghanistan.) Hope you have a good journey. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 03:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

My take: right or wrong, the name for the 'nationality' in China is Tajik, which may require explanation but is worth describing alongside other nationalities in China using that term.Penalba2000 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC).Reply

To David Straub:If possible, could you check the Sarikoli of Shiaogong Bahar? (The plateau Tajik name of Nuwruz.) Also, check my statement that they use "'Taji' refers to their crown"? --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 15:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

To 116.58.100.78: What's your opinion about my comments before? I think I need to care the Chinese Wikipedia - they mixed plateau Tajiks and plain Tajiks together, I've added warning template to that article to tell the readers that that article mislead people. Also, I corrected some errors. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I don't think I'm an anti-Pamiri or an anti-plain-Tajik. For long times this article gave wrong info (which mixed plateau Tajiks and plain Tajiks) and I corrected them. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

To 虞海 (Yú Hǎi), the so called "plateau Tajiks" (East Iranian speaking Pamiris) and "plain Tajiks" (Persian-speaking Tajiks proper) need not to be mixed together. There is an article Pamiri people, that also refers to Pamiris in China (Sarikoli and northern Wakhi) as "Pamiri people", and the term Pamiri is widely used by academia, that's why it's also used in the article lead. Other terms like "plateau Tajiks" that are sometimes also used for Pamiris are also mentioned in the article. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 07:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I agree that plateau Tajiks and plain Tajiks need not to be mixed together, but we need to respect their self-identification.

A Baidu user: "中国的白人" wrote All for TUJIK AVON, so it seems he's a "Tajiks of Xinjiang". He posted(pasted) an article 塔吉克”是本民族的自称，是“王冠” 的意思。, so we know that Tajik is their self-identification.

It seems you're a Pamiri from Pakistan, so I think you can talk with him through Romanlization of East Iranian languages. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 04:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I advice the name Tujik people, it's transcription of Sarikoli: Tujik ziv – Hanzu ziv lughot --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

We use the common name in English texts, not necessarily the transcription of the native pronunciation. Alefbe (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I agree the English term is "Tajik", that can refer to many peoples in the broadest sense, but refers to only Persian speakers in the region when used in its proper sense. (see Tajik language and Tajik people) 116.58.100.78 (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

But, Alefbe, you moved plain Tajiks to Tājik people, isn't it a native pronunciation？ --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually the native pronunciation is Salikuer and Wahan. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 09:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

How do you say that? Still, there's no Roman transliteration for Sarikoli language. (So Salikuer can't be a Sarikoli Romanlization.) --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 12:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I am concerned by the number and type of edits being made by an editor using the isp 116.58.100.78 . I suspect that these edits are actually being made by a registered user who does not want to use their username. These edits unclude complete reverts of pages, deletion of sources that do not support their view, and the repeated change of any reference of "Tajik" to Pamiri, despite the fact that there was a lengthy discussion above to change the name of this page from Pamiri people in China to Tajiks in Xinjiang 116.252.76.44 (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

It seems he do not want to register an username. This IP have much comments in this talk page. It's an IP of Pakistan education organization. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 04:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Please don't attack me if you are unable to find a source claiming Pamiris are Persians. Also don't confuse the Turkic word "Tajik" with the Persian word for crown. Besides, in Sarikoli or Wakhi languages, which we need to consider instead of Persian, taj or taji doesn't mean crown. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 09:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I didn't attack you - 116.252.76.44 guess that "being made by a registered user who does not want to use their username" so I gave him another possibility. You can deny us anytime. In fact, I meant to ask you "why not register an username" since it's hard to check which 2 IP are same.

Also, I'm busy these days so your comment mightnot be replied as soon as I saw it.

I did never claiming Pamiris are Persians. Speaking Tajiks does not means they're Persians. I agree that plain Tajik speak Tajik Persian, but Tajik language, which plateau Tajiks speak, is a East Iranian languages.

Does Taji means crown in Sarikoli dialect? You can ask (plateau) Tajiks in China: [2] - just use latin transcription of Pamiri language and they might understand. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 15:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

User:David Straub asked me to add my comment. I originally created this page in order to hold content about the members of this ethnic group in China. Similar to Ethnic Mongols in China, Koreans in China, and other cross-border ethnic groups. But I haven't been watching this debate too closely, and I don't have much of an opinion. Anyway I'll try to give a more complete overview of the Chinese sources.

All the online sources and a big proportion of the offline sources in Chinese state word for word:

“塔吉克”是本民族的自稱，據民間傳說，該詞的原意為“王冠”。 = Tajike is the self-identification of this ethnic group. According to folk legend, this word means "crown".

I think this is copied from an official document somewhere; it probably reflects "Whatever the Soviet Union says, let's say the exact opposite" political correctness ...

There's a couple of other viewpoints/more details in print sources [3]:

• 中国少数民族语言使用情况: 塔吉克族有有薩里庫爾和瓦罕兩種自稱 = Tajikezu have two different ways of calling themselves: Salikuer and Wahan
• 新疆民族, p65: “塔吉克“ （TAJIK) 一名由“塔吉”（王冠）加上后缀 “－K” 组成，意为“王冠之族”，主要居住在塔吉克斯坦共和国，分为平原塔吉克和高山塔吉克。新疆的塔吉克是高山塔吉克人的一支，大都居住于帕米尔高原及其附近地区。 = The name "Tajik" comes from "Taji" (crown) plus the suffix "-k", meaning "the tribe of the crown". Most live in the Republic of Tajikistan. They are divided into Plains Tajiks and Mountain Tajiks. The Tajike of Xinjiang are part of the Mountain Tajik branch. They mostly live in the Pamir Plateau and surrounding areas.

That last one is an example of what Yu Hai was mentioning above.

But this is just a shallow overview from Google. Chinese books aren't too well represented in GBooks. I have a copy of 塔吉克语简志 somewhere at home, or maybe I lent it out to someone, which I recall discusses this issue a bit more, but for anything else, I'd have to head for the library. cab (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

this edit

Please explain the reason. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 04:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

I removed them. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Archive 7#Blanking of links. The Joshua Project data are full of errors (22,000 Koreans in Mozambique? 7,000,000 Mandarin speakers in Indonesia?), and their habit of dividing up self-identified single ethnic groups into multiple ones based on spoken dialect differences makes things even worse. I don't find them to be a reliable source either for ethnic group naming or for population numbers. cab (talk) 08:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Salikuer and Wahan are the terms we should be using in the article, as these are the original self-identifications of the people. Using Tajik is wrong and misleading. I can quote many sources that both Sarikoli and Wakhi are widely considered to be Pamiri people, not West Iranians Tajiks, by scholars. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 09:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

• Sarikoli/Salikuer and Wakhi/Wahan are Pamiri languages. Agreed. Not controversial.
• Pamiri languages are East Iranian, not West Iranian. Agreed. Not controversial.
• The language spoken in Dushanbe is West Iranian. Agreed. Hopefully not controversial.
• The common English names for those two Pamiri languages are Sarikoli and Wakhi. Hopefully not controversial.
• I would prefer to use common English names for these already-obscure languages, over the 'original self-identifications.' Debatable. Perhaps some elegant middle ground is possible.
• "Using Tajik is wrong and misleading." I disagree; that is the Chinese name of the formally designated nationality. It is certainly confusing and you might be correct to say that its wrong, but that's what the PRC calls it and that fact ought to be acknowledged. We're not going to change Chinese minority naming here. Penalba2000 (talk) 19:03, 24 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

"Ethnic Pamiris in China" is not controversial and widely used. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 05:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL = 0 GHits. cab (talk) 07:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

I think one of the problems with the recent edits to this article is that there is a confusion between language and ethnicity.

The term Pamir languages is universaly recognized and the group of people that is discussed in this article does fall under this category. Wakhi and Sarikoli are categorized as Pamir langauges.

The difference though is when the term Pamiri is used as an ethnic term, as in Pamiri people. This was a term constructed by Soviet scholars during the mid-20th century. And as far as I can tell, it has been embraced by the people in the former Soviet Union who it applies to, i.e. the speakers of Pamiri languages who live in Gorno-Badakhshan Autonomous Province. During the Civil war in Tajikistan in the 1990s the Pamiri population actually organized themselves into militias and in 1992-93 Pamiris were targeted for mass killings.

The problem is how to apply the term Pamiri, in an ethnic sense, outside of the former Soviet Union. Does this apply to populations in Afghanistan? I don't know. I haven't seen any sources of Pamiri language speakers applying the term to themselves. Can someone show me a Pre-Soviet era source that uses the term Pamiri in terms of ethnicity? Choose any language? Russian? Tajik? Persian? Chinese? English? I doubt if the they exist. The term used in China to describe the speakers is of Wakhi and Sarikoli is the word Tajik. I don't think it is the place of wikipedia to educate the Sarikoli and Wakhi speakers in China and tell them that they are actually Pamiris.David Straub (talk) 05:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Can someone show me a Pre-Soviet era source that uses the term "Tajik" in terms of ethnicity for Pamiri people? 116.58.100.78 (talk) 06:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Exactly right -- lots of confusion here between language and ethnicity and, I would add, politics. This article is an entry on a political entity, a Chinese (PRC) created designation. Penalba2000 (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Then by your logic, there should be also an article, Allemand in France, a French created designation for German people, even if it's not used in English language for Germans. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 06:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

I think if you say Pamiri is "a term constructed by Soviet scholars during the mid-20th century", you should also not ignore that the term Tajik was also constructed recently and not found in historical texts. In the proper sense, Tajik refers to Persian speakers (please see the references I quoted earlier; also see Tajik language which is a Persian dialect). 116.58.100.78 (talk) 06:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Here is that source again: "There are about 50,000 people living in the Tajik Autonomous District identified as Tajiks in the Chinese census. However, these people can be called Tajiks only in the broadest sense. The Sarikoli and Wakhi Chinese Pamir nationalities, as well as the Tajik, Pakistani and Afghan Pamir nationalities who live in Chinese Pamir, speak languages belonging to the Eastern Iranian language group, whereas Tajik is linked to Western Iranian." Pamiri people are (non-Tajik) Pamir nationalities.

Jahangir Khoja was a sunni sufi fundamentalist. His contained sunni tajiks from central asia who speak the real tajik language. This article is about the pamiri ismaili shia tajiks found only in badakhshan and xinjiang. I deleted paragraphs which are talkinga bout the actual tajiks, move them to history of tajikistan or somehwere else.Jeumbledde (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

http://books.google.com/books?id=JL4IAAAAQAAJ

http://books.google.com/books?id=up2jpwAACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions

Kuoofra (talk) 04:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)Reply

In Medieval Europe, people spoke their local languages among themselves such as Italian, French, Castilian, while not writing them down and using them as literary languages until much later. They wrote in Latin as their literary language.

In the same way, the some minorities in Chna do not have an alphabet for their own language. They only speak their language orally, and use the Chinese or another major language like Uyghur to write.

The Tajiks of Xinjiang only speak their own language orally, and use the Uyghur language to write.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oWc2I03-UQIC&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false

On the Ghalchah languages (Wakhand Sarikol (1876)

https://archive.org/details/onghalchahlangua00shaw

Government policies were in favor of Uyghurs when Persian language was abolished in Tajik schools in 1954.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-ix

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-viii

Rajmaan (talk) 06:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

In response to increased Tsarist Russian activity in Sarikol around 1900, the local Sarikoli begs and Sarikoli people feared that Russia was going to annex the region and take it away from China, fearing molestation at the hands of the Russians, they wanted to flee to Yarkand. They did not believe the official explanation that Russia was only concerned with the postal service in the area.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA125&dq=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2BFHU4umB6rNsQTVqYDADQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=100%20petty%20Sarikol%20protested%20against%20Russians%20molest&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&dq=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2BFHU4umB6rNsQTVqYDADQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA125&dq=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRJHU76nJ-qwsAT144CoBg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=On%208%20February%20a%20deputation%20from%20Sarikol%20arrived%20at%20Yarkand%20and%20presented%20to%20the%20Amban%20three%20petitions%20which%20bore%20the%20seals%20of%20six%20headmen%20and%20the%20thumb-marks%20of%20about%20100%20petty%20Sarikol%20officials.%20They%20protested%20against%20the%20arrival%20of%20the%20Russians%20and%20asked%20to%20be%20given%20land%20near%20Yarkand%20as%20they%20were%20certain%20that%20the%20Russians%20would%20molest%20them.&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&dq=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRJHU76nJ-qwsAT144CoBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ

Rajmaan (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

It has been proposed in this section that Tajiks of Xinjiang be renamed and moved to Chinese Tajiks. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Tajiks of Xinjiang → Chinese Tajiks – In previous discussions over a decade and a half ago, the main points of contention were: "Which name(s) is more commonly used in reliable sources (i.e. WP:COMMONNAME)?" and "Which name(s) is appropriate, given that 'Tajik' is a misnomer because the group is actually ethnic Pamiris?" Since the discussions in 2009, scholarly articles and books have generally been split in usage of "Tajiks of Xinjiang" and "Chinese Tajiks". Neither name solves the second problem, and adding "Pamiris" in parentheses isn't necessary, in my opinion. The group itself has a distinct history and culture, and it is not merely a situation of Pamiris being on a different side of an international border (i.e. not Tajikistan). The Chinese government uses the term "Chinese Tajiks" in English to distinguish the group from Tajiks and Tajikistanis in China. It's also worth noting that members of this ethnic group have travelled and made homes elsewhere in China, so it doesn't make sense to have an article title that limits them to one specific part of the country. This article isn't about Tajiks or Pamiris who live in Xinjiang, but a distinct ethnicity that originated from the region. The article should therefore be renamed and moved to "Chinese Tajiks". Yue🌙 01:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 17:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose - Based on NPOV (the CCP name for pretty much everything is "China's XXXX" or "Chinese XXXX" to emphasise their ownership of it), accuracy (these are specifically the Tajiks originating from Xinjiang). We also do not automatically adopt official names per WP:OFFICIALNAME. FOARP (talk) 09:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I've never heard of that specific claim of Chinese chauvinism, but presumably that would apply to every other ethnic group too (e.g. "Chinese Zhuang", "Chinese Uyghurs", "Chinese Tibetans", etc., which I've never heard before) and there should be some reliable sources out there pertaining to that claim, which I have never seen. The current title "Tajiks of Xinjiang" is not much better either because by the same logic, Xinjiang is a Chinese-centered name with origins of Chinese chauvinism predating the CCP.

  Regardless, as I argue, the current title is not precise because these "Pamiris", who call themselves "Tajiks", are not geographically limited to Xinjiang like wild animals in natural habitats.

  I would have preferred and proposed Sarikolis and Wakhis, but they're two subgroups of the wider ethnic group and that naming seems unconventional. I.e. The Sarikolis and Wakhis are ethnic Pamiris ... . The Chinese government's official name for the group is "Chinese Tajiks". Yue🌙 20:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I think you will have certainly seen "China's Taiwan province" and "Chinese Taipei". FOARP (talk) 20:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I personally wouldn't make that comparison though because

  1. "Chinese Tajiks" is a term used (roughly) equally with "Tajiks of Xinjiang" in scholarly works, whereas "Chinese Taipei" is only used by the Chinese government and its supporters when referring to Taiwan.
  2. These people live in commonly recognised Chinese borders whereas Taiwan is not within said borders.

  Regardless, I don't heavily favour either the current title or "Chinese Tajiks" because both use geographical markers that aren't accurate. I prefer Sarikols and Wakhis, and I find the use of the descriptor "of Xinjiang" to echo the Orientalism and dehumanisation of old ethnography. It's like if Han Taiwanese was titled "Chinese of Taipei" or "Han of Taiwan". The title isn't describing an identity but an ethnicity in a set geographical area (when said ethnicity is not limited to a set geographical area). Yue🌙 21:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply