Talk:Dolores Ibárruri

Um...this seems either copied from somewhere, or copied from somewhere and run through a machine translation... Adam Bishop 19:15 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I concur, but it's moot now, as I've redone the whole article. --Jose Ramos 16:38, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Are you sure that "Pasionaria" comes from Passion flower? I've heard it's a religious thing. Maybe because her first article was published in Passion week. -- Error 01:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My English is not good, but I wanna tell you the origin of "Pasionaria" nickname... It comes from a Virgin name, "Virgen de la Pasionaria", a Madonna with a dead Jesus... Dolores adopted it for religous motives. (her original name was Isidiora and also changed into Dolores for another Virgin, "La Virgen de los Dolores").--80.58.37.237 11:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

It would be Nuestra Señora de la Pasión, I guess. A pasionaria would be one of her followers. --Error 23:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

 

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Is it possible for someone to include a pronunciation guide for the name? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.105.193 (talk) 09:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The date is not may 1944, but march 1942 ; José Diaz died in 1942, no reason the party should stay without SG for 2 years ; anyway, there are sources, for instance : VASQUEZ MONTALBAN, Manuel : La Pasionaria et les sept nains, page 437 (french edition). From AUBRIANT (Wikipedia-fr and -es)--77.204.112.230 (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Without references, this article reads as a borderline hagiography for La Pasionaria. It is full of superlatives but has little or no balance. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 01:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

I own two books who deal with the dark side of this woman (OTOH: Is there any "bright side"?):

• Autobiografía de Federico Sánchez, by former PCE militant Jorge Semprún. 1977. ISBN 8432053708

• Carillo Miente. 156 documentos contra 103 falsedades, by former Spanish Minister of Culture and Historian w:es:Ricardo de la Cierva. 1994. ISBN 8488787830 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum

I shall add the less bombastic info about this woman ASAP. Randroide (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

Of course, the use of sentences like Is there any "bright side"? is very neutral and not borderline. Just like citing books with the view and oppinions of one side... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.35.44.212 (talk) 08:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Actually Ricardo de La Cierva was Francisco Franco's official historian. So not exactly a reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivan peregrino (talk • contribs) 23:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I don't see much neutrality in the text of this. Such as saying when Ibarruri left Spain, that the Second Republic was "left without a friend, doomed." That's not neutral talk, that's "woe is me" talk. I'm not going to dive into this article, since I'd be accused of being heartless. But can't someone make this less hand-wringing? Openskye (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Added a neutrality tag. There is no criticism whatoever here of a woman who lived a large part of her life in imperial luxury among the Soviet elite and supported the likes of Tito and Ceacescu. 213.64.236.190 (talk) 15:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I feel compelled to respond since I am responsible for the bulk of the article as it reads presently. Most of the information about Dolores Ibarruri came from her autobiography or from the right-wing press of Franco's Spain, ABC, La Vanguardia and so on. My main left-wing sources were the archives of the Spanish Communist Party, Marxist or Trotskyist blogs (Spanish and English languages) and the USSR newsreels. These are all cited in the Bibliography at the end of the article. There are no better sources of information. I deliberately omitted favourable stories that could not be verified independently, e.g. that she saved the lives of a congregation of nuns in Madrid in 1936 and whose religious order sent her a gift and letter of thanks upon her return to Spain in 1977. The charges levied against Pasionaria by her most ardent enemies, the Fascists, were that she was a Communist agitator and that she was a whore; I don't think it appropriate to include their point of view although the Falangist who heckled her in 1977 reflects that hatred (source: ABC). I defend my article as balanced and conveying a fair image of Pasionaria, good and bad. It broadcasts her positive contributions under very trying circumstances, (1) a rescue of the starving children of jailed Asturian activists in 1936, (2) her oratory for which she was famous everywhere and which gave her a parliamentary seat in the elections of 1936, (3) her tireless defence of the legitimate Republican government during the war, (4) her resilience and courage visiting front-line positions to harangue the soldiers, (5) her will to learn at tremendous personal sacrifice, e.g. during the night in Somorrostro, (6) her managerial skills, e.g. directing Radio Espana Independiente. It also broadcasts the flaws, (1) her unreserved loyalty to Joseph Stalin, (2) her frozen vision of the USSR as a worker's paradise even as the Iron Curtain was disintegrating (source: ABC), (3) her responsibility in the assassination of several dissidents as reported by Enrique Lister, (4) her dishonest tirade against Bronz Tito for which she later apologized profusely, thus confessing her guilt, (5) her role in the ruthless elimination of the Trotskyist/Anarchist batallions fighting against Franco's armies, (6) her privileged refugee status in the USSR, which it must be said noone disputed or resented; as a matter of fact Ibarruri's name is respected in post-Communist Russia because she was the mother of Ruben Ibarruri, an official "Hero of the Soviet Union," killed in action at Stalingrad during the Great Patriotic War. The sentence, "the Second Republic was left without a friend, doomed" is a statement of fact; no other country except the USSR would have helped the Spanish Republic, the sole legitimate government according to democratic principle. Pasionaria was also the heroine of the International Brigades; that's why there is a statue erected in her honour in the city of Glasgow. Was Pasionaria a saint? Hardly. Was she a whore? Please. Was she a demon? She was a courageous woman who fought against the misery and exploitation of the Basque miners of Somorrostro first and of the Spanish working class later, poverty and abuse which she endured and was very well acquainted with since childhood. She found her salvation in Marxist theory and Marxism remained for her "the only way" the working class had of defending itself. Others may beg to differ, but what can not be denied by even her most adamant opponents is that it took faith, guts and conviction to rebel and to become an agitator for the Marxist cause in 1930's Catholic Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EduardoFreireCanosa (talk • contribs) 04:41, 23 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

—a “courageous woman”? Yeah, you’re right that her rhetoric was indeed stirring. “It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" "La Pasionaria" exhorted the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Then when the nationalists were closing in, she booked for Moscow, just like the "republican" leadership leaving 20,000 of their followers in the lurch at Alicante.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 22:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)Reply

Reply: There was nothing to be gained by having Ibarruri stay in Spain after the fall of Catalunya and after the diplomatic recognition of the Nationalists by both France and England on February 26, 1939. Earlier that same month Republican President Negrin and General Casado had attempted to negotiate secretly the surrender of Madrid to Franco's forces even at the expense of "eliminating" the PCE; the Communists became aware of those secret negotiations; they realized that they would soon be betrayed into the hands of the Nationalists and so they urged all those who could to flee immediately.

Ibarruri would have been tortured and executed in a Nationalist jail. Instead her flight to Russia served to carry on the resistance from abroad through the broadcasts of Radio Internacional or Radio Pirenaica. That radio remained a thorn on the side of Franco's government until 1975 for it breached the wall of official censorship. Many Spanish families, including Nationalists, used to listen to the broadcasts of Radio Pirenaica "sotto-voce" to get a real glimpse into what was really happening inside Spain. The BBC was another source of clandestine news.—Preceding unsigned comment added by EduardoFreireCanosa (talk • contribs) 03:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

Questionable Objectivity: When I first read this biography of Ibarruri I felt I was reading an official party biography in which the defects of the subject are either airbrushed from the picture or made to appear as virtues. Given the previous response this still appears to be the case. One wonders why a person self-styled with a name like La Pasionaria, who made impassioned speeches to “the masses” to “to die standing up than to live kneeling down…”, which kneeling down she certainly did after absconding to the Soviet Union and its Master, Joseph Stalin, would not indeed take her own rhetoric to heart and nobly submit to torture and execution in a Nationalist jail? Many lesser folk have willingly did this for their causes. It is therefore no frivolous question and failure to address it suggests something of a less than earnest effort to portray Ibarruri accurately and let the reader decide for himself. For flee she did to Stalin and no doubt assumed a comfortable position as one of the nomenklatura. Nor is it an answer to say she carried on the fight from afar. It is the very least ironic that she would do so from a country—the Soviet Union—whose citizens suffered much more than the Spaniards, Catalans, or Basques did under Franco. So what was she up to? Was she exhorting her former countrymen to forsake what they had for something even worse? Perhaps yes, if one reads about many communist ideologues, who took just such an implausible stance—not to say a hypocritical one. It is always easy ignore one's surroundings when one has it pretty good as it is likewise easy to continue the struggle by proxy when one has a comfortable perch. Has it been so long ago that we have forgotten the erstwhile Sandinista, Daniel Ortega’s (now reputed to have a net worth in excess of $50 millions) shopping sprees on Fifth Avenue? Such people are always exhorting the lumpen masses to make the ultimate sacrifice. Whatever their revolutionary past they always seem to have a penchant for luxury. To say that Ibarruri was somehow holding to the cause sounds like excuse making and consequently would appear to many as anything but expressing a NPOV. Skinnerd (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

The objectivity of your intervention is questionable, arsehole. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:4461:8B3F:A186:3BE4 (talk) 14:36, 29 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

I thought she lived in Mexico for some time after leaving Spain, no? --Figsyrup (talk) 10:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ibarruri is said to have bitten a priest to death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.223.218 (talk) 15:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

You've got to be kidding. Your comment reminds me of a popular underground joke about General Franco during his regime.

"Do you know why they call Franco 'Frank the Frog'?"

"I don't know, why?"

"Because he is always inaugurating reservoirs."

Evidently this joke, like your wild rumour about La Pasionaria, is not to be taken seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EduardoFreireCanosa (talk • contribs) 19:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

I believe the title of her autobiography is El Unico Camino (The Only Way) and not No Pasaran —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.59.154.178 (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2009 (UTC)Reply

I just added a section in this article entitled Monuments and Memorials, to record information about the La Pasionara statue in Glasgow, which took inspiration from Dolores Ibarruri. I'm hoping that will allow people to put up other info about other monuments related to Dolores Ibarruri. This is my first ever proper edit. Please be kind in your comments. --Elflin (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

this entry states that Añoveros "defied Franco's decision to remove him". This seems to be a major distortion, since things went quite the opposite way. According to Stanley G. Payne (The Franco Regime, London 1987, pp. 595-6), it was the prime minister Arias Navarro who wanted to send Anoveros into exile, but Franco overruled the PM; "despite his feebleness continued to meet with the cabinet almost every week, intervened to veto any drastic action. ... The sensible Tarancón then arranged for Añoveros to go on a long vacation, defusing the crisis".

The source quoted in the footnote is Ibarruri herself in a 1974 statement. Though it is quite possible that she indeed believed in 1974 that Anoveros "defied Franco", there is no reason an encyclopaedia repeats these misconceptions in 2014. It looks that Franco did not want Añoveros out; moreover, he opposed the decision to remove Añoveros and engineered a compromise solution. Since it never actually came to ousting Añoveros, it is hard to tell whether he would have opposed the decision or he would have complied. Anyway, suggest to change the passage accordingly. Dd1495 (talk) 21:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

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That about sums this article up. A good half of it could be cut out, without the reader losing much. Especially if what is cut, is the rather breathless retelling of minor and irrelevant details.

The fact of the matter is, that this woman not only has countless of lives on her conscience. Like those of Nin and his POUM colleagues. She also lived the good life in Moscow, partied and went to the Bolshoi ballet (why how disgustingly bourgeois!), while others of her so called Spanish comrades in the USSR were tortured and murdered.

Why the above get mentioned in the article, the weight is completely off, and the unsavory facts are buried beneath a mountain of apologist irrelevant material.

By the way, I understand from wikipediophiles that it’s “stirring and brave” when Dolores said “It’s better to die standing up than to live on your knees.”

Does the same “stirring and brave” also apply to Mussolini’s “Better to live a day as a lion, than a thousand years as a sheep”?

185.107.12.99 (talk) 12:21, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

She became Secretary General of the PCE in 1944. José Díaz (the previous one) died in the Soviet Union in March 1942. Most reliable sources say that she became Secretary-General in 1944. There was a partial meeting of the central committee in the Soviet Union in May 1944 which expelled her rivals (especially J. Hernandez) for the position and she began acting as Secretary General. There is no evidence that she was elected to the position and there was no group that the had the authority to elect her present in Moscow. see "The Communist Party in Spain" by Víctor Alba (1983). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.193.104.112 (talk) 18:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

This entire article is fucking FILLED with one-sided weasel words and other hyperbolic bullshit. Oh, who cares? WP is the same. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:4461:8B3F:A186:3BE4 (talk) 14:32, 29 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Долорес Ибаррури.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

There are many introductory phrases like "In 1938 she did this." Some of them are delineated by commas, some are not. I would leave them all commaless, but in any case they ought to be consistent within the article. ЄlєvєN єvєN||иэvэ иэvэl3 21:44, 13 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Why does this article use the American date format (January 1)? Is it relevant to Spain/Russia? Or should it all be changed to the European format (1 January)?--Adûnâi (talk) 03:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

THis is yet another article on Spanish history with very questionable sources. Lots of sources, but not reliable, fact based historians and an attempt at a neutral point of view. As noted above, "Too long, too irrelevant, too much glorification of a rather unpleasant character", and half the article could be cut out. And yet much is missing too... very little on her exile and why she was so popular. TGcoa (talk) 23:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I removed:

suppressed the revolutionary fervour of the Communist masses, and later withheld aid from the Spanish Republic during the 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War. The Non-Intervention Pact, which sealed the fate of the Republic, was introduced by Léon Blum, president of the French Popular Front, and signed on 2 August 1936 by France, Britain, Russia, Germany, and Italy.^[1]

from the article as it was out of place chronologically and is not very related to the matter. Error (talk) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply