Talk:Montérégie

If the articles are going to be expanded, then we should hold off on discussion of deletion. There is a lot of work to be down in expanding these articles and in creating articles for the many, many redlinked destinations in them, so let's not create any more RCM articles until that is done.

There is no reason to harmonize the article titles with Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so using official or legal names has merit. Wikivoyage is a travel guide that aims to have a lively tone.

I repeat, for comment, the proposal that I made above:

"the "Regional County Municipality" addendum to the name can be chopped off. If the shortened name is already is use, then "county" or "region" can be added to the name to distinguish the article."

Ground Zero (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Chopping "Regional County Municipality" of the name sounds a good plan. Where this gives a name which is already in use, or a city which might get an article then adding a single word is fine. I have just had a look at the websites of several of the listings in cities within these Regional County Municipalities and none of the businesses mentionned the Regional County Municipality in saying where they are - many just had the city, Quebec. AlasdairW (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Done. Chopped off the "regional county municipality" off, but for Acton and Roussillon, I had to add a (region) disambiguator as there were other articles named as such. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

It has been just over a month since I started this thread. Unfortunately, not much has changed since June 9; all articles still have little to no helpful content.

Whilst some like La Vallée-du-Richelieu and Marguerite-D'Youville have an article for every single destination listed, some like Acton (region), Rouville and Les Jardins-de-Napierville are only redlink farms. I still haven't fixed the categorization and breadcrumbs yet because we have yet to settle on boundaries (and if I'm feeling like it, I might make a static map – no promises). However, I don't support incomplete regionalization for such prolonged periods. @Ground Zero, Ikan Kekek: any idea what to do? @Veillg1: how much longer do you need to "improve" these articles? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:37, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Looking at it, Category:Montérégie does have 52 pages with around 13 regional county municipalities making it 39 actual destination articles. Should some of these be merged? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Anyone? It's almost two months since we've let this issue hang around. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here are the sub-regions listed, with the number if articles that we have for each if them:

• Longueuil — city article
• Acton — 0 articles
• Beauharnois-Salaberry — 1 article
• La Vallée-du-Richelieu — 13 articles
• Le Haut-Richelieu — 1 article
• Le Haut-Saint-Laurent — 2 articles
• Les Jardins-de-Napierville — 0 articles
• Les Maskoutains — 1 article
• Marguerite-D'Youville — 6 articles
• Pierre-De Saurel — 5 articles
• Roussillon — 3 articles
• Rouville — 0 articles
• Vaudreuil-Soulanges — 3 articles

Clearly, the regionalization was undertaken way before it was needed. If @Veillg1: is going to be creating articles for the red links in these subregions, then we shouldn't start merging them. But unless Veillg1 tells us what their plan is, it looks like these subregionscare just a waste of the reader's time and should be merged.

Also, the static map labels Marguerite-D'Youville under its old name, Lajammerais. Ground Zero (talk) 11:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

The articles on the municipalities/cities of the Montérégie region (in Quebec) are in project (or under construction for those which are already posted). This is a region that is familiar to me since I live there. In the meantime, my energies are invested in finishing designing articles on the magnificent territory of the North Shore of St. Lawrence River. Veillg1 (talk) 11:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Okay, so how long do you need then? One more month? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero, Ikan Kekek, Veillg1: Today (September 8) marks exactly three months since the first region article (Acton (region)) was created. Sadly, the regionalization issues still remain – should we merge all these regions back? Veillg1, how much longer do you need and please give me a compelling argument on why you think you'll be able to finish this within that timeframe. If I don't hear a response by October 1, I'm going to assume you've abandoned these articles and will merge all of them to Montérégie. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:13, 8 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here are the articles that we have for each of the sub-regions now:

• Longueuil — city article
• Acton — 0 articles
• Beauharnois-Salaberry — 1 article
• La Vallée-du-Richelieu — 13 articles
• Le Haut-Richelieu — 1 article
• Le Haut-Saint-Laurent — 2 articles
• Les Jardins-de-Napierville — 0 articles
• Les Maskoutains — 1 article
• Marguerite-D'Youville — 6 articles
• Pierre-De Saurel — 5 articles
• Roussillon — 3 articles
• Rouville — 0 articles
• Vaudreuil-Soulanges — 3 articles

These are the same numbers as at July 29. I was hoping to see some progress so that this work wouldn't have to be undone, but it does not look promising. Ground Zero (talk) 10:33, 8 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Veillg1:? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

It has been four months now and 10 days past October 1. @Veillg1: please respond. Otherwise, I will merge these articles. We're only going to go in circles unless you respond. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

Your follow-up is an opportunity to talk about the design in relation to the administrative region of Montérégie (in Quebec) which I know relatively well for traveling there regularly. The creation of articles on this region is progressing on WV (French); as well as adding photos for Wikimedia Commons. In addition, a few hundred new photos of this region are coming, including localities that have not yet published an article. I consider that these articles on the Montérégie are under construction. As for WV (English), my enthusiasm as a designer has diminished following some deletions of content, some comments, as well as an abusive blocking. My participation in WV (English) has not ceased; but, for now, the collaboration of the various communities has redirected my priorities as a designer.

Notes (concerning Montérégie on WV-English):

• Les Jardins de Napierville (1 published article - Hemmingford (grouping village and township));
• Pierre De-Sorel: (6 published articles).
• Vaudreuil-Soulanges (4 published articles); three other articles were published in French.

Veillg1 (talk) 03:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Les Jardins de Napierville remains nothing but a list of redlinks, so I have redirected it to Hemmingford, the only article we have for the region. Thus way, if readers search on Les Jardins de Napierville, they will be directed to an article with travel information. Ground Zero (talk) 13:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

The article lists the RCMs (regional county municipalities) and an equivalent territory, namely the Agglomeration of Longueuil (and not the city of Longueuil). This list does not include administrative regions according to the administrative structure in force in Quebec. Thus, the subtitle "Regions" is inappropriate because it confuses with "administrative regions" (eg: Montérégie, Mauricie...). My recommendation is to use the term RCM (Regional County Municipality) as the title of this section. - Veillg1 (talk) 17:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

state your case in Wikivoyage_talk:Article_skeleton_templates/Sections and follow the appropriate procedures, s'il vous plaît. Ibaman (talk) 15:04, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

The article reflects the regions used by Wikivoyage for providing information to travellers. Those looking for information on local government administrative structures should look to Wikipedia for information. Wikivoyage is not an encyclopedia. Ground Zero (talk) 15:57, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

As Ibaman and GZ mentioned, WIKIVOYAGE N'EST PAS UNE ENCYCLOPÉDIE. I'm writing this in all caps in big text and in French, because I don't think you'll ever get the point after telling you this hundreds of times if I write this in ordinary text. Give an argument at Wikivoyage talk:Article skeleton templates/Sections if you think this should be an exception, but I doubt you'll get very far, IMO. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:41, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

We divide the world into Continents, Countries and Regions, and don't use other terms - Quebec is also a Region. It is important to note that our regions are NOT regional county municipalities. A particular site may be in one regional county municipality, but we might find it was more convenient for travel purposes to list it in another region, and so move the region boundary to fit. If the term "regional county municipality", or more likely "municipalité régionale de comté" is likely to be seen by visitors to the area, we could have a sentence explaining it. AlasdairW (talk) 23:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here are the articles that we have for each of the sub-regions now. I have started to clean this up as it seems that this project has been abandoned.

• Longueuil — city article
• Acton — 0 articles --> redirected to Montérégie
• Beauharnois-Salaberry — 1 article --> redirected to Salaberry-de-Valleyfield
• La Vallée-du-Richelieu — 13 articles
• Le Haut-Richelieu — 1 article --> redirected to Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu
• Le Haut-Saint-Laurent — 0 articles --> redirected to Montérégie
• Les Jardins-de-Napierville — 1 article --> redirected to Hemmingford, the only city article
• Les Maskoutains — 0 articles --> redirected to Montérégie
• Marguerite-D'Youville — 6 articles
• Pierre-De Saurel — 5 articles
• Roussillon — 1 article
• Rouville — 2 articles
• Vaudreuil-Soulanges — 5 articles

I will continue to work on and update this, but I am looking for ideas on how to handle the regions with only 2 or 3 articles. Ground Zero (talk) 13:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Based on this map, I propose to reorganize this region as follows so that we don't have so many empty region articles.

• Longueuil — city article
• La Vallée-du-Richelieu — 13 articles
• Marguerite-D'Youville — 6 articles
• Pierre-De Saurel — 5 articles
• Vaudreuil-Soulanges — 5 articles
• Western Montérégie — 4 articles, covering Beauharnois-Salaberry, Le Haut-Saint-Laurent, Les Jardins-de-Napierville, Roussillon
• Eastern Montérégie — 3 articles, covering Le Haut-Richelieu, Les Maskoutains, Rouville, and Acton

Note: Brome-Mississquoi La Haute-Yamaska and are not in our definition of Montérégie. They are in Eastern Townships. Ground Zero (talk) 15:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

This is an interesting region. I just browsed the French version and did some counting. If it eventually fills out in the way the current links suggest, it'll have 135 city articles, which would be about 15% of Canada by article count. I definitely agree the existing encyclopedic structure is too complex for a travel guide, and your proposal certainly improves it.

However, as interesting as this area is, it all fits within an hour's drive of Montreal. It makes it seem a bit odd that there is no W:Greater Montreal or South Shore region. As a visitor, I'd be more likely to think of some of these places as suburbs and side-trip destinations for Montreal. For example, it might be nice to look at a region one level above Montreal in the breadcrumb that can compare whether I should spend a day in Rouville, Laval, or Rigaud, and so on. Southwestern Quebec feels too big, but Montérégie (as a region-of-regions of outline-status towns) feels too broken up. Maybe it's a discussion if/when the articles at the end of the hierarchy fill out. Gregsmi11 (talk) 18:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Gregsmi11: I was hoping that we would get some more comments. May of the articles in this region were created by one contributor who didn't have much regard for the English Wikivoyage style or for other contributors. It seems like they have opted out of further contributions.

I see the advantage of a South Shore region, but which of these comtés would that include, and what would we do with the rest of them? Ground Zero (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero Working from the "bottom" up (that is, all the see and do listings in Montérégie - but without the most typical looking churches, boat ramps, stables, golf courses, municipal parks/community centres, etc.. ) the map kind of shows an "inner ring" with a few clusters along the rivers and inside Autoroute 30. The rest is a bit more spread out and the listings feel more rural. Combining some of these small towns could make the hierarchy less confusing. A rural approach that captures larger areas could provide some interesting and fully fleshed out thematic sections, e.g. boating the Richelieu, historic churches, equestrian centres, farm visits, gallery tours, etc.

If I were to propose a more drastic reorganization, I could see something like:

Montérégie (Region)

• South Shore + Vaudreuil-Soulanges (Region, of cities)
  • Boucherville (City)
  • Longueuil (City)
  • Brossard (City)
  • Laprairie (City)
  • Vaudreuil-Dorion(City)
  • Rigaud(City)
  • Salaberry-de-Valleyfield (City) (AKA Beauharnois-Salaberry)
• Rural Montérégie (Region of rural areas, maybe eventually a few cities)
  • Pierre-De Saurel — 5 cities turn into 1 Rural area
  • North half of La Vallée-du-Richelieu — Half of 13 cities into 1 Rural area
  • South half of La Vallée-du-Richelieu — Half of 13 cities into 1 Rural area
  • Marguerite-D'Youville — 6 articles into 1 Rural area
  • Le Haut-Saint-Laurent and Les Jardins-de-Napierville - Currently just Hemmingford - 1 Rural area
  • Le Haut-Richelieu - Currently redirects to Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu - 1 Rural area
  • Rouville - Marieville and Rougment form 1 Rural area
  • Les Maskoutains - Empty
  • Acton - Empty

Gregsmi11 (talk) 14:40, 9 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero, Gregsmi11: 11 months later, are we good to implement this proposal? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think I don't understand the proposal. Would this split Montérégie into two sub-regions on the Montérégie region? or would they be two regions within the Southwestern Quebec region? Ground Zero (talk) 12:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't fully either, but if you guys can put together some mapshapes, I'm more than willing to create a static map. I'll have quite some time until mid-Feb so time shouldn't be a problem for me atm (which is why I haven't created one since September :-(). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've played around with the mapping a bit more here: User:Gregsmi11/sandboxMontérégie. I think either approach (splitting Montérégie, or creating two regions in SW Quebec) could work. However, if we make the change at the SW Quebec level, I think we should consider a "Greater Montreal" region consisting of (1)the "south shore" parts of Montérégie, (2)Montreal, and (3)Laval. These three areas are currently spread across two regions with Montreal sitting in a hole in the middle, but I doubt that really serves the typical traveller. Splitting Montérégie could be an easy interim step, though. Looking closer at the map, I don't think we'd need subregions. It would mostly be an exercise in merging mostly-empty rural articles, and flattening accordingly. Gregsmi11 (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The Greater Montreal region sitting under Quebec as an eighth region in the hierarchy makes sense to me. There is already a wikipedia article on it: w:Greater Montreal. I suggest using that definition, for consistency. Ground Zero (talk) 18:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Nothing has yet happened on this. While I understand the desire for a bigger reorganization, I think that its scale is so big and daunting that it is preventing anything from happening.

I return to my original proposal which would been relatively straightforward to implement:

• create a new Western Montérégie region by merging the regions of Beauharnois-Salaberry, Le Haut-Saint-Laurent, Les Jardins-de-Napierville, and Roussillon
• create a Eastern Montérégie region by merging Le Haut-Richelieu, Les Maskoutains, Rouville, and Acton
• create a new Longueuil (region) to cover Longueuil, and the following articles that are currently breadcrumbed directly to Montérégie: Boucherville, Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville, Saint-Lambert, Brossard

This does not preclude a future reorganization, but would clean up from the previous partial reorganization. Ground Zero (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Map of Montérégie

• Support This is very helpful and breaks the region structure into something more manageable. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 12:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Though I would use Longueuil (region) over Longueuil region as per Wikivoyage:Naming conventions. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 12:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Quite right. I've changed it. Ground Zero (talk) 12:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

If there are no objections or amendmentd, I will implement this next week. Ground Zero (talk) 12:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support. It's a logical and feasible reorg. I wish I had more time these days to help out here; thanks @Ground Zero for keeping this on your radar. Gregsmi11 (talk) 01:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've started to implement this. It's a work-in-progress. Ground Zero (talk) 02:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! It's looking much better now than it was. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 07:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply