Talk:Donald Trump

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Want to add new information about Donald Trump? Please consider choosing the most appropriate article, for example: Indictments against Donald Trump Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York ... or dozens of other places, as listed in {{Donald Trump series}}. Thanks!

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: This page is biased towards/against Trump because it mentions/doesn't mention x. Why won't you fix it? A1: Having a neutral point of view does not mean giving equal weight to all viewpoints. Rather, it refers to Wikipedia's effort to discuss topics and viewpoints in a roughly equal proportion to the degree that they are discussed in reliable sources, which in political articles is mostly mainstream media, although academic works are also sometimes used. For further information, please read Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. Q2: Donald Trump has been convicted in the New York trial on felony charges. Why doesn't the opening sentence say that he is a convicted felon? A2: Wikipedia works by consensus; new information can only be added if it is either uncontroversial or if there is community consensus in favour of the addition. A discussion on the topic of whether the first sentence should use the wording of convicted felon was held, and the outcome was 'No Consensus'; per Wikipedia's established policy and practice, this means that change is not endorsed by the community, and that the requested addition should not be made. While consensus can change, before opening a new discussion on the same topic, at minimum, read the previous discussion and either bring new arguments or attempt to address existing arguments against the inclusion of the 'convicted felon' wording. Remember that the policy based arguments are given most weight. Failure to heed this advice may result in your discussion being summarily closed. Please remember that the Wikipedia community does not contest or dispute the fact that the subject is a duly convicted felon, as established by the relevant reliable sources. The choice not to include such wording in the opening sentence is not meant to indicate endorsement of or opposition to Donald Trump, and is not motivated by partisan animus. Rather, this is an editorial choice, rooted in existing long-standing and community-endorsed policy. Q3: A recent request for comment had X votes for support and Y votes for oppose. Why was it closed as no consensus when one position had more support than the other? A3: Wikipedia is built on consensus, which means that editors and contributors here debate the merits of adding, subtracting, or rearranging the information. Consensus is not a vote, rather it is a discussion among community members over how best to interpret and apply information within the bounds of our policy and guideline infrastructure. Often, but not always, the community finds itself unable to obtain consensus for changes or inclusions to the article. In other cases, the community may decide that consensus exists to add or modify material based on the strength of the arguments made by members citing relevant policy and guideline related material here. This can create confusion for new comers or those unfamiliar with Wikipedia's consensus building processes, especial since consensus can change. While all are welcome to participate in consensus building, keep in mind that the best positions for or against including material are based on policy and guideline pages, so it may be in your best interest to read up on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines before diving into the debates.

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Page history

Donald Trump was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Article milestones Date Process Result June 2, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 12, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed September 17, 2016 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2017 Good article nominee Not listed December 2, 2018 Good article nominee Not listed July 15, 2019 Good article nominee Not listed August 31, 2019 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 29, 2020 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Former good article nominee Health of Donald Trump was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 13 June 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Donald Trump. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Cuozzo, Steve (November 16, 2013). "Don't Trust Anything on Wikipedia". New York Post. Popper, Ben (July 22, 2015). "Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Wikipedia page". The Verge. Merrill, Jeremy (February 1, 2016). "On Wikipedia, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate". New York Times. Germ, Erik (May 28, 2016). "5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day". Cracked.com. Guo, Jeff (October 25, 2016). "Wikipedia is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws". The Washington Post. Alcantara, Chris (October 27, 2016). "The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Wikipedia pages". The Washington Post. Staff Writer (December 21, 2016). "Most-edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 revealed". BBC News. Gartenberg, Chaim (January 20, 2017). "Wikipedia editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet". The Verge. Wyrich, Andrew (June 5, 2017). "Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Wikipedia". The Daily Dot. Warren, Tom (22 November 2018). "Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis". The Verge. Blumenthal, Eli (22 November 2018). "Wikipedia vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump". USA Today. Griffin, Andrew (23 November 2018). "Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Wikipedia edit". The Independent. Gander, Kashmira (23 November 2018). "Someone hacked Donald Trump's Wikipedia page, replaced photo with image of penis". Newsweek. Martin, Alan (26 November 2018). "The Trump penis Wikipedia war has kicked off again". The Inquirer. Brandom, Russell (December 3, 2018). "Wikipedia engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack". The Verge. Mak, Aaron (May 28, 2019). "Donald Trump's Wikipedia Entry Is a War Zone". Slate. Pasternack, Alex (March 7, 2020). "How Wikipedia's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation". Fast Company. Flood, Brian (May 21, 2020). "Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics". Fox News. Evon, Dan (November 19, 2020). "Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump's Wikipedia Page?". Snopes. Williams, Zoe (October 23, 2023). "Why is Elon Musk attacking Wikipedia? Because its very existence offends him". The Guardian. Hays, Gabriel (May 31, 2024). "CNN host suggests Trump conviction not mentioned prominently enough on former president's Wikipedia page". Fox News. Harrison, Stephen (June 4, 2024). "The Most Heated Debate on Trump's Felony Conviction Is Happening on ... Wikipedia?". Slate. Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv (October 17, 2024). "Go ahead and use Wikipedia for research". The Boston Globe. 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The weeks in which this happened: June 14 to 20, 2015 June 28 to July 4, 2015 July 19 to 25, 2015 July 26 to August 1, 2015 August 2 to 8, 2015 August 9 to 15, 2015 August 16 to 22, 2015 August 23 to 29, 2015 August 30 to September 5, 2015 September 6 to 12, 2015 September 13 to 19, 2015 September 20 to 26, 2015 September 27 to October 3, 2015 December 6 to 12, 2015 December 13 to 19, 2015 January 3 to 9, 2016 January 10 to 16, 2016 January 17 to 23, 2016 January 24 to 30, 2016 January 31 to February 6, 2016 February 7 to 13, 2016 February 14 to 20, 2016 February 21 to 27, 2016 February 28 to March 5, 2016 March 6 to 12, 2016 March 13 to 19, 2016 March 20 to 26, 2016 March 27 to April 2, 2016 April 3 to 9, 2016 April 10 to 16, 2016 April 17 to 23, 2016 April 24 to 30, 2016 May 1 to 7, 2016 May 8 to 14, 2016 May 15 to 21, 2016 May 22 to 28, 2016 May 29 to June 4, 2016 June 5 to 11, 2016 June 12 to 18, 2016 July 3 to 9, 2016 July 10 to 16, 2016 July 17 to 23, 2016 July 24 to 30, 2016 July 31 to August 6, 2016 August 21 to 27, 2016 August 28 to September 3, 2016 September 4 to 10, 2016 September 11 to 17, 2016 September 18 to 24, 2016 September 25 to October 1, 2016 October 2 to 8, 2016 October 9 to 15, 2016 October 16 to 22, 2016 October 23 to 29, 2016 October 30 to November 5, 2016 November 6 to 12, 2016 November 13 to 19, 2016 November 20 to 26, 2016 November 27 to December 3, 2016 December 4 to 10, 2016 December 11 to 17, 2016 December 18 to 24, 2016 January 1 to 7, 2017 January 8 to 14, 2017 January 15 to 21, 2017 January 22 to 28, 2017 January 29 to February 4, 2017 February 5 to 11, 2017 February 12 to 18, 2017 February 19 to 25, 2017 February 26 to March 4, 2017 March 5 to 11, 2017 March 12 to 18, 2017 March 19 to 25, 2017 March 26 to April 1, 2017 April 2 to 8, 2017 April 23 to 29, 2017 May 14 to 20, 2017 May 21 to 27, 2017 May 28 to June 3, 2017 June 11 to 17, 2017 June 25 to July 1, 2017 October 8 to 14, 2017 October 22 to 28, 2017 November 26 to December 2, 2017 January 14 to 20, 2018 June 10 to 16, 2018 September 30 to October 6, 2018 October 28 to November 3, 2018 November 4 to 10, 2018 November 11 to 17, 2018 November 18 to 24, 2018 November 25 to December 1, 2018 December 9 to 15, 2018 September 22 to 28, 2019 December 15 to 21, 2019 January 5 to 11, 2020 February 23 to 29, 2020 March 1 to 7, 2020 April 12 to 18, 2020 May 31 to June 6, 2020 June 7 to 13, 2020 June 14 to 20, 2020 June 21 to 27, 2020 June 28 to July 4, 2020 August 9 to 15, 2020 August 16 to 22, 2020 August 23 to 29, 2020 September 27 to October 3, 2020 October 4 to 10, 2020 October 11 to 17, 2020 October 18 to 24, 2020 October 25 to 31, 2020 November 1 to 7, 2020 November 8 to 14, 2020 November 15 to 21, 2020 November 22 to 28, 2020 November 29 to December 5, 2020 December 6 to 12, 2020 December 13 to 19, 2020 January 3 to 9, 2021 January 10 to 16, 2021 January 17 to 23, 2021 January 24 to 30, 2021 January 31 to February 6, 2021 July 10 to 16, 2022 June 11 to 17, 2023 May 26 to June 1, 2024 June 23 to 29, 2024 July 14 to 20, 2024 July 21 to 27, 2024 October 20 to 26, 2024

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Section sizes Section size for Donald Trump (95 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 10,468 10,468 Personal life 20 22,622 Early life 5,318 5,318 Family 1,584 1,584 Religion 2,488 2,488 Health habits 3,534 3,534 Wealth 9,678 9,678 Business career 148 36,882 Real estate 2,030 14,203 Manhattan and Chicago developments 6,494 6,494 Atlantic City casinos 4,039 4,039 Clubs 1,640 1,640 Licensing of the Trump brand 1,708 1,708 Side ventures 7,103 10,333 Trump University 3,230 3,230 Foundation 5,695 5,695 Legal affairs and bankruptcies 4,795 4,795 Media career 58 5,342 Books 1,108 1,108 Film and television 4,176 4,176 Political career 2,269 27,859 Presidential campaigns (2000–2016) 2,645 25,590 2016 presidential campaign 7,459 22,945 Campaign rhetoric and political positions 6,944 6,944 Financial disclosures 3,452 3,452 Election to the presidency 5,090 5,090 Presidency (2017–2021) 125 205,006 Early actions 2,211 2,211 Conflicts of interest 3,455 3,455 Domestic policy 24 24,694 Economy 4,089 4,089 Climate change, environment, and energy 4,713 4,713 Deregulation 3,544 3,544 Health care 4,130 4,130 Social issues 8,194 8,194 Pardons and commutations 2,572 2,572 Immigration 5,048 23,639 Travel ban 5,258 5,258 Family separation at the border 6,641 6,641 Trump wall and government shutdown 6,692 6,692 Foreign policy 3,235 37,827 Trade 2,551 2,551 Russia 4,929 4,929 China 5,466 5,466 North Korea 5,773 5,773 Afghanistan 3,082 3,082 Israel 2,683 2,683 Saudi Arabia 2,250 2,250 Syria 3,998 3,998 Iran 3,860 3,860 Personnel 8,912 8,912 Judiciary 4,723 4,723 COVID-19 pandemic 291 32,615 Initial response 7,932 7,932 White House Coronavirus Task Force 6,073 6,073 World Health Organization 2,683 2,683 Pressure to abandon pandemic mitigation measures 8,240 8,240 Political pressure on health agencies 2,682 2,682 Outbreak at the White House 2,318 2,318 Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign 2,396 2,396 Investigations 4,173 26,039 Russian election interference 6,499 6,499 FBI Crossfire Hurricane and 2017 counterintelligence investigations 2,573 2,573 Mueller investigation 12,794 12,794 First impeachment 6,833 10,454 Impeachment trial in the Senate 3,621 3,621 2020 presidential campaign 4,756 4,756 2020 presidential election 3,583 22,984 False claims of voting fraud, attempt to prevent presidential transition 9,083 9,083 Concern about a possible coup attempt or military action 2,868 2,868 January 6 Capitol attack 4,055 4,055 Second impeachment 3,395 3,395 Post-presidency (2021–present) 5,052 50,685 Business activities 2,382 2,382 Investigations, criminal indictments and convictions, civil lawsuits 1,134 28,287 FBI investigations 5,489 5,489 Criminal referral by the House January 6 Committee 683 683 Federal and state criminal indictments 7,533 7,533 Criminal conviction in the 2016 campaign fraud case 7,749 7,749 Civil judgments against Trump 5,699 5,699 2024 presidential campaign 14,964 14,964 Public image 58 55,539 Scholarly assessment and public approval surveys 6,679 6,679 False or misleading statements 9,465 9,465 Promotion of conspiracy theories 4,236 4,236 Incitement of violence 3,159 3,159 Social media 6,118 6,118 Relationship with the press 6,114 6,114 Racial views 14,208 14,208 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct 4,894 4,894 Popular culture 608 608 Notes 136 136 References 30 1,189 Works cited 1,159 1,159 External links 5,580 5,580 Total 421,308 421,308

I’m not a fan of Trump but this article is so biased. Can we add some positive things to the first portion of this article? At least mention forcing NATO countries into paying, positive economic growth, or fairly fast economic COVID recovery compared to other first world nations, or something neutral like tax cuts or recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. There are positives and negatives to even the worst presidents, but the first portion of this article reads like something straight out of Mother Jones. Don’t pretend like Trump hasn’t done like one or two good things. C9crab (talk) 06:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you be more specific? If you can share some examples, perhaps it will gain consensus to be added. DN (talk) 08:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I can help C9Crab a bit with an example. Currently on this talk page there's a proposed positive thing that needs help getting in the article. It was previously put in the article and reverted. It's in the talk page section Support for Trump's missile strike in Syria. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice the founding of the space force isn't mentioned anywhere in the article despite being significant. The Abraham Accords could have a mention in the lead. Increased funding for NASA, the Artemis program, and the Artemis accords are significant things that could be mentioned in the article but aren't. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to add something "positive" to the lead, I'm not sure that recognition of Jerusalem as the capital city really fits the bill. The move was highly controversial, and widely condemned by world leaders.

What some may consider positive, others may see as negative, and vice versa. Either way, this sounds like a call for WP:FALSEBALANCE which goes against policy. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you're mistaking false balance with NPOV?

WP:FALSEBALANCE states that "Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized." For example, we shouldn't try to legitimize the Flat Earth conspiracy theory by giving it equal weight through comparison to widely accepted science. However, Donald Trump does not fit any criteria listed on WP:FALSEBALANCE -- he's a candidate for the presidency of the U.S who is widely disliked, but is also equally liked, based on the fact that he and Kamala Harris are basically tied in the polls. His presidency from 2017-2021 included positive and negative aspects, as with practically every presidency, and this article should reflect that in accordance with NPOV. C9crab (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FALSEBALANCE is a part of NPOV. It leads with While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. Balancing negatives with positives to make it less negative is FALSEBALANCE. We go by WP:DUE. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you think Donald Trump is a “ minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim” then prepare to be amazed that 70,000,000+ people thought that Donald Trump aligned with their beliefs and voted for him in 2020. Making his article reflect both the good and bad of his presidency isn’t FALSEBALANCE, FALSEBALANCE is meant to be applied to actual “minority” or “fringe” views that go against widely refuted ideas, among those being flat earth. C9crab (talk) 07:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beliefs and opinions, may or may not be DUE. DN (talk) 08:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

nnnnn 207.174.237.68 (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Equally-liked" and "tied in the polls" are not the criteria by which we judge inclusion or exclusion of material in a Wikipedia article. If you approach this as a popularity contest, prepare to be disappointed when your suggestions for article additions go nowhere. Zaathras (talk) 22:33, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This isn’t about a popularity contest, it’s about making an article fair and balanced in alignment with NPOV. Not sure what you’re not understanding. C9crab (talk) 07:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to make Wikipedia an objective and bipartisan website is like trying to boil the ocean. Freespeech2024 (talk) 03:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Especially if they deny climate change. DN (talk) 03:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@C9crab: I will quote what another user said in a similar conversation about a request to add more positive statements to the Laura Loomer Wikipedia article.

In that discussion, Aquillion wrote: Your argument above seems to misunderstand how balance on Wikipedia works - our job is to reflect the overall tone, focus, and weight of the highest-quality sources available. If those sources are overwhelmingly negative, then a balanced lead will also be overwhelmingly negative ...

For the most part, it seems that the things that get considerable and persistent coverage by the press are also the things that will get more weight and coverage here on Wikipedia. That's what I meant when talking about false balance in a previous comment. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 02:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1) "forcing NATO countries into paying" - this is based on Trump's own mischaracterization of how NATO is funded. The actual payments (direct funding) have always been made. What some countries are failing to do is meet the military budget targets. There is no "payment" here, it is their own investment in their national militaries. 2) "positive economic growth" - Trump assumed office in the middle of a long term economic growth cycle, he can hardly claim this as his accomplishment. 3) "fast economic COVID recovery" - ummmm, the recovery came after he left office. 4) "tax cuts" - which were heavily skewed towards the top 1% with little lasting impact on the majority of the population 5)"recognizing Jerusalem" - thereby stirring up more trouble in the Middle East. I'm still waiting on you to mention something positive. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He didn't participate in any wars during his presidency, making it one of the only ones in US history; this should be added, it's very positive. JacktheBrown (talk) 12:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious? So who do you think nearly doubled the US forces in Afghanistan from January 2017 to January 2018? Who deployed 3000 US troops to Saudi Arabia in 2019? Etc, etc, etc. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trump leaves office and a year later Russia invades Ukraine and starts a continuing war, and 2 1/2 years after Trump left office Hamas makes a major attack on Israel with hostage taking which starts the continuing Gaza War that is currently being picked up by Hezbolloh from Lebanon with the beginnings of another war in progress. This wasn't happening when Trump was in office. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russia had no need to invade Ukraine when Trump was appeasing Putin. And if you want to connect October 7 to Trump not being in office, there's a ^{[citation needed]} tag for you. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:17, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, really? Also no, let's not mock. Russia was in occupation of Crimea (that is an invasion of Ukraine), 11 terror attacks in 2017 (alone) in Israel what peace do you want us to add? Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a positive that was rejected. Trump scores a long-awaited coronavirus win with vaccines on the way Regarding the question, "Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?" I guess the answer is no. Bob K31416 (talk) 02:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the answer is no. Please WP:AGF. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AGF? This is Donald Trump we're talking about. There are no good things that came from his presidency, and that's supported by so many sources. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One good thing came from the Trump presidency: the Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022, which we can indirectly credit to Trump and his attempts to steal the election. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 04:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. He made 4 peace deals, no new wars, expansion of economy, illegal immigration down, etc.

Biden on the otherhand.....numerous new waes, chaos in the world, russia is winning the war in Ukraine, cultural destruction, open borders of migrants, violent crime at multi decade highs, etc. 149.62.206.91 (talk) 10:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No new wars does not mean no wars, and which peace deals did he make? Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to 149.62. The US crime rate has trended downward for decades, and recent data confirms this pattern. However, while the national violent crime rate decreased by 1.6% in 2022 compared to 2021, the property crime rate rose by 6.7%. Rates vary by region due to factors including urbanization levels, economic conditions, and law enforcement effectiveness. From usafacts.org--Updated on Fri, February 23, 2024 by the USAFacts Team Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 11:21, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lies as usual. The ABC tried to "fact check" Trump on that during the debate, and they lied.

The FBI recently revised data on violent crime from 2022 upwards. Original reporting had shown a 2.1 decrease in violent crime from 2021 to 2022. The new numbers show a 4.5 percent increase

So they waiting until well after past the debates and released the "corrected" report in the last moment before the election to cover up for the previous lies. Fsckwiki (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support mentioning Operation Warp Speed. Not sure why others don't, but I know it's been discussed. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That tale does not tell anything "positive about Trump." What's positive is his unprecedented political skill - holding the GOP captive even while destroying what remained of it after the Bushes. Also, though it was not on his initiative, he continues the Republican corruption of the Federal judiciary, remarkably to his personal benefit. Most Americans may dislike those outcomes, but the are extraordinary personal achievements. SPECIFICO talk 17:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support mentioning it (despite the fact that his involvement was basically just signing his name) if he hadn't spent the entire time flouting the suggetions of actual doctors, hosting what amounted to spreader events, and saying mind-numbingly stupid things like the idea of putting bleach into people. You don't get to claim credit for the science when you spend so much time denigrating it. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Odd things about Operation Warp Speed were that, IIRC, Pfizer, who developed the first usable Covid vaccine, was not a part of Operation Warp Speed. And the true genius who spent decades researching the concept of mRNA vaccines, winning the Nobel Prize for doing so, was an immigrant to the US but left due to lack of funds to complete the research. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:07, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was branding. See Katalin Karikó (the genius O3000 mentioned), BioNTech, Pfizer–BioNTech, and "America first". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed Warp Speed should be mentioned. R. G. Checkers ^talk 18:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you have some examples, than I suppose you may add them (with consensus) in. Should Trump return to the White House on 20 January 2025. I suppose his second term, would gradually change the info in his bio. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

agreed. This is crazy biased and the more I see everything against him, the more I like him honestly (I've never been a big fan of his) this is pretty ridiculous 2605:A601:AF64:8000:A6CF:B505:D9F5:DE32 (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I might agree with you if I understood little to nothing about Wikipedia policies and the underlying principles. I suggest you start at: Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. Users can take that on board, or not, as they please. But we are not going to have yet another time-wasting extended discussion about this on this page. Avoidance of that is why the response page was created in the first place—after literally years of time-wasting extended discussions about this. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another positive not in the article is that the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, died in a raid by U.S. forces during Trump's presidency. From CNN,[1]

"Esper told CNN’s “State of the Union” Sunday morning that the President approved the raid 'late last week' after being presented with different options. The objective, Esper said, was capturing Baghdadi or if necessary, killing him.

'He reviewed them, asked some great questions, chose the option that we thought gave us the highest probability of success and confirmation that the head of ISIS would be there and either captured and killed and then we executed from there,' Esper said."

Bob K31416 (talk) 05:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did this change anything, was it a positive? Slatersteven (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, he aced the cognitive test. Man, camera, chicken, TV. SPECIFICO talk 07:30, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He was "top in his class" at the Wharton School too, right? But I think that claim has been debunked. He didn't even make the Dean's List? We could at least put in the lead that he falsely claimed to be first in his class. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 18:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jokes aside, would it make sense to mention the First Step Act? That wasn't a Trump accomplishment really, but it was something he signed. VQuakr (talk) 05:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is the problem, people are asking for positive achievements, not just signing something. Some he actually did, worked for. Slatersteven (talk) 11:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we could add that to Donald Trump#Social issues right after mentioning that Trump supports the use of interrogation torture methods such as waterboarding, the Trump administration executed 13 prisoners, more than in the previous 56 years combined and after a 17-year moratorium, and Trump’s anti-marijuana actions. Or not. Bipartisan bill, and after Trump signed it, his DOJ was working hard not to release people and to put parolees back in prison. For example, a former inmate was singing Trump's praises at a WH presser while Trump’s DOJ was trying to send the man back to prison. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not in the article is Trump orders strike on Syria in response to chemical attack, which begins with,

"President Donald Trump ordered a strike on Syria Friday in response to last weekend's chemical weapons attack.

Addressing the nation Friday evening, Trump said the strike was a joint operation with France and the United Kingdom.

'A short time ago, I ordered the United States Armed Forces to launch precision strikes on targets associated with the chemical weapons capabilities of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad,' Trump said.

Trump said that the 'massacre' last weekend in Syria 'was a significant escalation in a pattern of chemical weapons use by that very terrible regime.'

'The evil and the despicable attack left mothers and fathers, infants and children thrashing in pain and gasping for air. These are not the actions of a man,' Trump said, referring to Assad. 'They are crimes of a monster instead.' "

Bob K31416 (talk) 14:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this belongs anywhere, it would be in the presidential article. But it's mostly quotes from Trump. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the missile strike is already in the article. My mistake. It's any mention of the support it got that is missing from the article whereas the article mentions criticism for Trump's other actions in Syria. See the Talk section Support for Trump's missile strike in Syria. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a general impression. This is an article, and it is in Wikipedia, but I don't think calling it a Wikipedia article would be appropriate. It's something else. Too much of an attack orientation. Just my opinion. And with that, I think I've spent enough time in this section. Best regards. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are we talking about positive things or just things that have gotten support from somewhere? Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMO the more we talk about adding "positive things" the more it appears to look like a misinterpretation of policy. For example, it's not any editor's fault Trump chooses to promote conspiracies for his supporters who also appear to believe in them.

"When reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance." Where is the contradiction, AKA the positive perspective, among reliable sources? Wikipedia doesn't rely on sources that promote conspiracies, so in a way our hands are somewhat tied. DN (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "forcing NATO countries into paying" is just plain wrong and demonstrates you don't know how NATO works, recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital is highly controversial and not followed by any major ally, and tax cuts for the rich is not "neutral". Don't pretend you're being neutral point of view with rubbish like this. AusLondonder (talk) 11:34, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It really is so biased. If people can't agree on anything positive, at the very least the extreme negative hyperbole needs to be removed. The phrase "and unlike anything a political candidate has ever said in American history" regarding his public statements in his 2024 campaign made me laugh. Whoever added this to the article, are you aware that the US had presidents who were openly advocating for slavery and the KKK? RedrickSchu (talk) 22:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're citing the clause out of its context (His embrace of far-right extremism[713][714] and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist,[b] and unlike anything a political candidate has ever said in the recent American history.[715][708][723]) You can easily look up "whoever" in the revision history, and they backed up the clause with three reliable sources that say "Never before has a presidential nominee openly suggested turning the military on Americans simply because they oppose his candidacy", "No major American presidential candidate has talked like he now does at his rallies — not Richard Nixon, not George Wallace, not even Donald Trump himself", and "Trump Is Speaking Like Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini ... Until recently, this kind of language was not a normal part of American presidential politics." If you have any sources saying that this has been the norm or even happened before, please present them. If not, we have nothing to discuss here. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While there's nothing wrong with that section, I think the "unlike anything a political candidate..." part could be improved. The longer an unquoted sentence goes on, the more it sounds like an opinion, even though it isn't. I tried to write a version which addresses this, but didn't have much luck. But I do think the word 'ever' can be removed, as it just adds confusion (between the whole of American history and recent American history).

The only real problem with it is people mistaking it for an opinion, which is what's happened here, right? This seems to be something which happens frequently in this article. 300AD (talk) 22:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the Reliable sources involved:

1. Added that his family's church was "led by Norman Vincent Peale." -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, "What has Donald Trump said about religion?" (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article "Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church" (9-5-16) -- 5 words
2. "During his childhood, he also went to the First Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012." -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in The Atlantic: Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). "Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants" -- 19 words
3. Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president." Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). "Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office". Christianity Today. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- 10 words
4. "Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study" -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please Google News to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). "The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020". Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- 10 words
5. "and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible." -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). "Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible". CNN. -- 13 words

Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word "Christian" only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a Neutral point of view, clearly Verified, and involve due Weight to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, thanks in advance for comments. ProfGray (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. Cessaune [talk] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe 1 is not trivial. The "power of positive thinking" is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. Zaathras (talk) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4 seems more relevant. DN (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op. SPECIFICO talk 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition (custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt — English isn't the website's forte) of "the only Bible endorsed by" Trump, using his "name, likeness and image" under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, "There is not too much religion..." -- is that right? ProfGray (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups. SPECIFICO talk 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from Religion to Early Life, and this edit removed Peale. Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even Mike Pence's. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion.

• this edit in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me.
• Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, The Atlantic, at the time which also reported that As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades. Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check?
• Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events: The Associated Press noted that "Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism."^[1] It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign.
• "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president" — trivial statistic. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. Jack Upland (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2).

• On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., Trumpism article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.)
• On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? CNBC 2020,NYT 2016, a Christian POV, biographer in Politico, WaPo 2016, evangelical POV, linking to his COVID approach (one of several), First Things conservative POV, and more.

Thanks for your consideration. ProfGray (talk) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: in an interview [Trump] described Dr. Peale as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted. (New York Times) Trump, in a telephone interview, ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.” (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Peale was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it!Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, Peale was a hero and role model - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024. SPECIFICO talk 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping.

On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. ProfGray (talk) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Space4Time3Continuum2x, in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's page mentions Donald Trump, and Fred Trump's page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of "positive thinking". Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with "assume the worst". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. _pbp 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on discussion above, I'm adding a Christian nationalism sentence to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: "Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation." This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. "Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election." Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. ProfGray (talk) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In line with the above discussion, I also added a sentence on Norman Vincent Peale in the "Religion" subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. ProfGray (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I replaced the material you added with the material we discussed here. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zaathras What I wrote is not a mandyism, as it is the context of what he said, as stated by the source. I will note, as discussed on that essays' talk page, that it is an often misused essay. My edit is not even the type of edit that the essay is about, as it is not a denial of an allegation. I also cite WP:NOTMANDY. Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was. Thus far your entire history of editing attempts here have been to water down verbiage in the article that you find disagreeable. Not a good start. Zaathras (talk) 22:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is your argument for why it is a mandyism, and also for why the essay should apply in this case? Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:04, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MANDY applies. After Heather Heyer was killed on August 12, Trump tweeted a four-minute statement blaming the "display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides". After two days of backlash he he called mmembers of the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists "criminals and thugs" on August 14. On August 15, he reverted to blaming both sides. Later he and his supporters claimed that "his fine people on both sides" didn't mean the white supremacists but the (invisible) people peacefully protesting the removal of Lee's statue. Quoting Mandy: Well, he would, wouldn't he? MOS:EDITORIAL also applies. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article talks about the comments at the unite the right rally. We should mention all the essential details about what he said. Even if it was about some other time he said something, the biography of living persons policy says that articles must state when an allegation is denied. As WP:NOTMANDY notes

'The validity or invalidity of MANDY has been debated extensively by Wikipedia editors. Among their concerns is that MANDY contradicts part of our BLP policy which currently states that when allegations are sourced well enough to be included in a BLP article, then "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too."' Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What allegation? Description is not allegation. SPECIFICO talk 01:47, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it isn't an allegation, WP:MANDY does not apply. If it is an allegation, then WP:NOTMANDY applies. Anotherperson123 (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please just answer my question so your concern can be resolved directly and constructively. SPECIFICO talk 03:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The allegation that he was referring to white supremacists/supported white supremacists with this statement. This claim is even apparently subject to a fact check ([2]). Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So should we say then "but his characterization was wrong as it was conceived of, led by and attended by white supremacists"? Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If that's what the sources say, and no sources are found that say something else, that would probably be good, except I would replace "it" with "the rally". Anotherperson123 (talk) 19:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If no one objects, I will put the proposed change into the article. Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zaathras Please read the diff thoroughly before reverting. My edit addressed the concerns about the previous edit while keeping the talk page consensus. See this talk page section for details. Anotherperson123 (talk) 22:48, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we do need to include the context that Trump explicitly denounced white supremacists in the same statement he said 'very fine people'. The Unite the Right page deals with this better. We are misleading by omission as things stand. MANDY doesn't seem to apply. Riposte97 (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that simple. DN (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How not? Riposte97 (talk) 01:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For one, the phrasing "although he said he was referring to people who were not white supremacists when talking about "fine people on both sides" uses "although". See MOS:OFCOURSE...There are other factors in regard to how Trump's statements on the matter are already dealt with in the article, so IMO, it doesn't seem so cut and dried. Cheers. DN (talk) 01:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a criticism of a particular wording, not of the content itself. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. We could easily put the fact in a new sentence. "In the same speech, Trump disavowed…" Riposte97 (talk) 02:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are making the assumption that's all it is. I would advise against further attempts to keep adding it in without EXPLICIT consensus...

Let's look at it.

• Trump's comments on the 2017 Unite the Right rally, condemning "this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" and stating that there were "very fine people on both sides", were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protestors.

There is a question of WEIGHT to adding something along the lines of "he was referring to people who were not white supremacists"...because AFAICT, according to sources, there did not seem to be many people there that were not considered white supremacists. It may have been Trump's view that there were, and that makes it more complex.

If you weren't part of that original discussion I highly suggest you check the ARCHIVE first. How it is currently explained in the article may have been the best way forward after much discussion and consideration over prominence in sources. There may even have been a consensus. Did you check the FAQ?

I would also keep in mind that it was reverted more than once by two other (highly experienced IMO) editors [3] [4] despite a WP:CTOP, WP:ARB enforced 24hr BRD boundary, instead of just getting an admin involved. So, for the sake of clarity, I suggest you WP:AGF and DO NOT reinsert it a third time without EXPLICT consensus, because this article gets harder to manage the closer to the election we get. Patience is a necessity here. Cheers. DN (talk) 03:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit summary of the first revert read: "Results in a 95-word sentence. Please try again", so I edited again, splitting it into separate sentences. That was reverted by Zaathras who wrote in the edit summary "same word salas as reverted minutes ago", despite it addressing the concerns of the user who reverted it. Zaathras has not yet clarified the meaning of this edit summary.

It seems the way to move forward is this: 1. mention that Trump was not referring to white supremacists/condemned white supremacists in the same sentence 2. mention that there probably weren't many people at the protest who were not white supremacists. What remains is how exactly to word this. Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both appear to be your personal opinion, and not supported by sources, which brings us back to whitewashing. You aren't the first account to try this, and likely will not be the last account. Zaathras (talk) 01:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not helpful, focus on content not editors. PackMecEng (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both are supported by sources and are part of the compromise of this talk page section. Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What you consider to be a compromise, I do not agree with. Again, just your opinion. Not factual. Zaathras (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first thing is definitely supported by sources and is even subject to a fact check, as stated above. Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, here's the revert in question [5].
Here's an article that has the transcript of the press conference that contains Trump's original "both sides" comment [6]. Trump clarified in that same press conference what he meant, "And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists." Bob K31416 (talk) 09:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was more than one statement — see Unite_the_Right_rally#President_Trump's_response, including the infrastructure press conference at Trump Tower with Chao and Mnuchin smiling awkwardly in the background. Trump backtracked and then backtracked from the backtrack and then backtracked from the backtrack of the backtrack. We've been over this several times in the past seven years. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the third paragraph of the lead of that Wikipedia article you referred to [7].

"US President Donald Trump's remarks about the rally generated negative responses. In his initial statement following the rally, Trump condemned the "display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides."[33] This first statement and his subsequent defenses of it, in which he also referred to "very fine people on both sides", were criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist protesters and the counter-protesters.[7][34][35][36][37] Trump later stated (in the same statement) that "I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally–but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists".[38][39]"

For comparison, here's the corresponding part in our article, including the reverted part.

"Trump's comments on the 2017 Unite the Right rally, condemning 'this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides' and stating that there were 'very fine people on both sides', were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protesters, although he said he was referring to people who were not white supremacists when talking about 'fine people on both sides'".

It looks like a good edit. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It also twice as long. Slatersteven (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes paragraphs need to be longer than they are to include the essential information. If a shorter version can be found that includes the essential information, good. If not, then we need the extra length. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:36, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And sometimes it adds nothing, then the place for this is the article about the rally, not him. Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we're going to include information about the rally, we shouldn't selectively exclude essential details. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We include the claim he did not mean white supremacists. Slatersteven (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't looked at the Unite the Right article in a while. The last sentence in the lead paragraph about Trump's statements is cherry-picked whitewashing.

Also not great but at least not WP:MANDY in Wikivoice with the intro "Trump later stated (in the same statement) that". That's a problem that needs to be taken care of in that article, and it's not a mistake we should be repeating in this one. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are on a side that is supported by neo-Nazis and you don't go out of your way to beat the living tar out of them and run them off... then you are not a very fine person. You are, in fact, a neo-Nazi.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTFORUM Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a lot worse than WP:NOTFORUM, it's advocating violence. Bob K31416 (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a philosophical debate around such a thing. Zaathras (talk) 12:43, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Advocating violence is expressly prohibited by the Wikimedia Code of Conduct. Also, Wikipedia is still not a forum. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its just an academic discussion or point on the ethics of opposing fascism and hatred ,and the lengths one can or should go. Not everyone is capable of such a discourse though, so, all good. Zaathras (talk) 03:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As much as I despise Nazis and Nazi apologists, beating the living tar out of people is something Nazis are also well known for, among other things. DN (talk) 08:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS, and Wikipedia is still not a forum. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It might be construed as a general comment, they did not specify a name. Off-topic either way, but I've said my piece. DN (talk) 03:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There were no personal attacks made, so your link is irrelevant. Zaathras (talk) 04:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Y'all are REALLY overreacting to a simple colorful idiom. By tolerating the presence of the neo-Nazis, the other protesters on that side reveal themselves to not be "very fine people". Very fine people do not allow themselves to be associated with neo-Nazis.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There were no "other protesters on that side" at the Unite the Right Rally. That was just Trump's spin. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fast forward to a future where there is a Wikipedia article [[Khajidha]] about a Wikipedia editor who is running in a close race for U. S. president. Editors who are anti-Khajidha have taken control of the article and it is filled with one-sided information. For example there is, "Khajidha has been criticized for advocating violence with the comment 'beat the living tar out of them and run them off'". An editor has tried to include Khajidha's explanation by adding, "although Khajidha said it was just 'a simple colorful idiom '", but couldn't get consensus for the edit. Bob K31416 (talk) 07:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would the "one-sided information" in this hypothetical article include (as this article on Trump actually does) the fact that said comment was made in reference to neo-Nazis? If so, I think I'd be fine with it.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 10:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think what's happening here can be summed up as another case where only one-sided information is allowed in the article. Bob K31416 (talk) 08:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We do mention it. Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Anotherperson123: It appears you're not going to get a consensus for your proposed changes. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have issues with your edits as well. Trump didn't brag about having "the ability to" kiss and grope women, he bragged about kissing and groping women. Sources say that. The extra words just obfuscate the text. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you post this in the wrong section? This section is about a different edit. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I moved this to a new section. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I posted this comment exactly where I intended to. Do not ever move my comment again. You're just demonstrating to me that you shouldn't be editing this page. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very true, so should we say then that he did grab them without persision? Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It says Trump was heard bragging about kissing and groping women without their consent, which is what we should say. Except I'm going to revise "was heard bragging" to "bragged". – Muboshgu (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a reason it was the other way before: he was off camera. Anotherperson123 (talk) 20:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears I was reading the wrong source, though this source might be useful for some sort of rewording of the sentence. According to the source, a prominent law professor says Trump may have not been speaking about kissing and groping without consent. Anotherperson123 (talk) 17:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Behind a paywall, so did the professor says Trump did not say it, or might not have said it? Slatersteven (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say its behind a paywall. According to the professors' analysis of the recording, Trump may have meant that its easier to get consent when someone is famous, or what he was talking about might technically involve consent, legally speaking. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I erman I can't access it as you need to pay, so I am asking for a quote Slatersteven (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not exactly sure what to quote in the article as there is a lot of material in the article about this. Here's one quote:

'"Regardless of how shocking and horrific Donald Trump's words about 'grab them by the p-----, you can do anything' are ... the activity itself does not necessarily constitute the criminal or civil offense of sexual assault," he wrote in a press release.

Banzhaf explained that Trump's qualifier before the statement — "and when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything" — implies there was consent.' Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure that a collection of if buts and maybes can be used to contest a stated fact. Slatersteven (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are no "buts" or "maybes" in that quote. Even if there were, it could still provide something of value. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not literally but figuratively, it is speculation, not a statement of fact. Slatersteven (talk) 18:57, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or does it mean that the victim believes that Trump's wealth, power, and influence means that he would not be punished and might even result in further bad experiences for themselves? Resignation is not consent. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTFORUM Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What one random law professor interprets from Trump's Access Hollywood comment pales in comparison to the WP:RS interpretation of what Trump said. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:52, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not a "random" professor, a prominent professor. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One professor. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WEIGHT inversely correlates to the degree of cherry-picking. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the public discussion of concerns about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not itself speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of WP:RS according to the WP:NPOV guidelines. This would not violate WP:MEDRS, because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? — The Anome (talk) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Just to start off: support as proposer, per comments above. — The Anome (talk) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable. SPECIFICO talk 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as canvassing for support. GoodDay (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• No, it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• yes it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. ValarianB (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• No or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the Joe Biden main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as "Age and health." So overall, this is a "no" unless significantly scaled back. Just10A (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• No It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. Bob K31416 (talk) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state "Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024." But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and @GoodDay: has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive. SPECIFICO talk 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? GoodDay (talk) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• No - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• No - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. PackMecEng (talk) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [8]. DN (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Ugh, well we shouldn't. PackMecEng (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't see a way to "unring" that bell. DN (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes See Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign. "After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets". I understand BLP's require extra care, but "concern" doesn't seem to be weasely enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, "Refuses to release medical records" with "attributed concerns" is where the bar currently sits. See "More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records" ABC NYT, Independent, CBS. Also see Age and health concerns about Donald Trump Cheers. DN (talk) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the "raised questions about Biden's health" only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. DN (talk) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Let's look at the tape. Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July "After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets"[9] and Biden didn't resign until July 21st. Did I miss something? DN (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... DN (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  So we could say then "After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets", would this be supported by RS? Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. DN (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against guidelines.

  2.) I don't know how you can argue "There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar" when just above that you argued "Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe" and "fairness is the name of the game."

  I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue "Policy says they don't need to be similar" and then simultaneously say "They gotta similar or else it's unfair." Just10A (talk) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Just10A If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change.

  I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. Just10A (talk) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. DN (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Just10A I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. DN (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (edit conflict) I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of secondary coverage is here, but WP:MEDRS is irrelevant here because biographical information is not biomedical information: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject isn't, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially forcing the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. Alpha3031 (t • c) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't see how WP:MEDRS (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on biomedical information (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his behavior as increasingly bizarre, it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. This is still a BLP. Riposte97 (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For anyone interested in additional details about "Age and health concerns about Joe Biden" being added to the LEAD of Joe Biden's BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [10]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [11], then removed [12], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [13], back on the 20th [14], removed same day [15], then again re-added by FMSky on the 20th [16], then removed again same day [17], re-added same day [18], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [19]. Cheers. DN (talk) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. DN (talk) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Include. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her "excellent health" report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[20]^[1][2][21][22] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[23] Even after Biden it was mentioned [24][25][26][27] Andre🚐 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records.

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the Age and health concerns about Joe Biden Wikipedia page. There is also an Age and health concerns about Donald Trump page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is WP:DUE. To not at least mention it on this page would be a violation of WP:NPOV and I don't like it through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is "not important" enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. BootsED (talk) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [28]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. Bob K31416 (talk) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes! Its absurd having a long article Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the Joe Biden entry featuring such an paragraph. Andol (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per WP:MEDRS, but we can and should report the widely WP:RS-reported public political controversy regarding the possibility of dementia, per WP:NPOV, as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. — The Anome (talk) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. Loki (talk) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump on [Fox&Fiends (at 34:26) who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said "Reagan", then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he "spewed crude and vulgar remarks" and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being "strong and tough" and "unbelievable" in the shower, adding to the "impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined". Quoting the AP headline: Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia. NPR called it "an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states".^[1][2]Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oaks Town Hall — (Good-faith refactoring of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to this. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) )[reply]

It wasn't a rally. It was a "town hall" staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as "constituents" and reading off cue cards. One of them, "Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household" had to correct herself because she forgot to say "union household"; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%.^[1][2] Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&As but after five the Q&A turned into a bizarre musical event with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of Hee Haw for an all-women town hall with an audience of MAGA supporters asking curated puff questions. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's been mischaracterized... You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial "WikiVoice" but as "sources say." For now. Zaathras (talk) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• No There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. TFD (talk) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to everyone except is supporters that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. Andol (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least.

NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age

Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years

Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’

New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline

The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign

WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain

LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?

Cheers. DN (talk) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, "...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...". Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate if he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is not halfway in the middle. Look at this. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. Andol (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• No - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not WP:DUE at this time. R. G. Checkers ^talk 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @R. G. Checkers: And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media WP:RS cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as WP:NPOV when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, "Interesting." Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? — The Anome (talk) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. R. G. Checkers ^talk 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    In other words, WP:DUE but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? DN (talk) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is WP:DUE by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? Riposte97 (talk) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Last week happened. (I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.) This isn't new. NYT in 2018: "Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation." Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's "obvious" about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to WP:NOTFORUM. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. Just10A (talk) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:NOPA. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. Just10A (talk) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017.

    2017

    2017

    2017

    2017

    2017

    Jan 2024

    No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to Age and health concerns about Donald Trump made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. DN (talk) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. Riposte97 (talk) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    "neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources"

    These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. DN (talk) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. DN (talk) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [29], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration & Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is "weird man-dancing". Bob K31416 (talk) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)


[reply]

  What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking WP:MEDRS in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these WP:RS to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental WP:NPOV policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of WP:OR, — The Anome (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. PackMecEng (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. Andol (talk) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Andol Look at the top of the page in current consensus #39. Nothing is politically motived. PackMecEng (talk) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I made a WP:BOLD edit to see how this plays out [30]. Maybe there is consensus? DN (talk) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm good with it and hope it sticks. PackMecEng (talk) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. Riposte97 (talk) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. Just10A (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Thank you. Riposte97 (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please do NOT refer to me as "he". They or them is fine. DN (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I will revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has now re-added Age and health concerns about Joe Biden back into the lead on Joe Biden's BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO Age and health concerns about Donald Trump now seems over-DUE here. DN (talk) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. Riposte97 (talk) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. DN (talk) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes. It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. Cessaune [talk] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Question Riposte97 See edit - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, "age and health concerns for Joe Biden" was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. DN (talk) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. Riposte97 (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. DN (talk) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? DN (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) wikipedia is not a source, what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race. The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. Just10A (talk) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  To be clear, it wasn't my proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. DN (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  "It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race."

  I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?

  Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out.

  So, there goes that excuse. DN (talk) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with "Even if it did". We don't use another page as a source, but even if we did, the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. Just10A (talk) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include something like (below)

  • Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates WaPo

  Cheers. DN (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. Riposte97 (talk) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. DN (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. Blythwood (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently...

  "As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions." Time 10-27-24

  "Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month.

  Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee.

  Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey." The Hill 10-26-24

  "couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'" The New Yorker 10-27-24

  "An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer.

  A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey." The Independent 10-27-24

  Cheers. DN (talk) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. Riposte97 (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request..."Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?"

  Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency.

  [31] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... "This is still being discussed on the talk page"

  What are the means by which to reconcile "this is still being discussed", at the same time as, "there is no way this is going to get consensus here"?

  Cheers. DN (talk) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for your response with the links.

  Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, "What is the means..." is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. Bob K31416 (talk) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. Riposte97 (talk) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of "it's under discussion", gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that "there is no way to achieve consensus"

  Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below)

  • Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.^[1]

  A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. DN (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. Bob K31416 (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  "The second sentence wasn't in the given source."

  Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in.

  As far as "insinuating he is in poor health", that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or "insinuate" anything specific as to violate MEDRS.

  • "The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans."

  DN (talk) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  His age is already in the article. Riposte97 (talk) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Water is wet. DN (talk) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes. There is overwhelming and WP:SUSTAINED coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As WP:BLP says, If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. ^{[2][3][4][5][6][7][8]}; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on Age and health concerns about Donald Trump. --Aquillion (talk) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zaathras My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that "research suggests Trump's rhetoric may have caused an increased incidence of hate crimes": a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the "clunky needless wording" is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. Anotherperson123 (talk) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zaathras Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with @Zaathras’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful Slothwizard (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1251380654&oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. Slothwizard (talk) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Do we need to salute and shout "Sir, yes, sir!"?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are this and this one, reverted here, I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky & needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: "suggests" says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that "research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...", we'd have to say "may have caused". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say "clunky". If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work?

"to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it"

"to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it" Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do western leaders have their and their wives age gaps ignored yet eastern leaders have theirs pointed out? We should add Trump’s age gap to his personal life to show fairness and equality in our edits to this website. 2600:1700:13C0:72E0:D07A:DA99:345C:BF06 (talk) 05:03, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The age gap isn't notable. If there's age gaps on other articles you think shouldn't be there you should raise it on those articles, not here. — Czello ^(music) 08:06, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yet eastern leaders have theirs pointed out? Citation needed. Zaathras (talk) 12:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are we really not considering being the subject of two assassination attempts this year (one in which he was injured) worthy of mention in the lead section? Sorry if this has been previously discussed. StewdioMACK (talk) 09:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the July 13 attempt to the lead was discussed here, no new reporting on it, AFAIK. The discussion about adding the September 15 incident to the body fizzled out the same as the media interest in it. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is that July 13 discussion really a consensus not to include? Looks like there was plenty of people in there arguing to include it. StewdioMACK (talk) 15:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For consideration in the 2024 campaign subtopic.

Donald Trump has chillingly suggested sending the military or National Guard after US citizens on Election Day. The Independent 10-13-2024

Video from FOX News via Wall Street Journal 10-13-24

"Former President Donald Trump called Democrats and others who have opposed or investigated him "the enemy from within" in an interview that aired Sunday, describing them as more dangerous than major foreign adversaries of the United States, including Russia and China." NBC 10-13-2024

Trump has repeatedly used the "threat from within" label throughout his campaign to label his political opponents, a categorization that's drawn increased attention as Election Day nears. "The threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within," Trump said in that speech. "Our threat is from within." CBS 10-14-2024

In comments that further fueled fears of an authoritarian crackdown if he recaptures the White House, the Republican nominee said the military or national guard should be deployed against opponents that he called 'the enemy within' when the election takes place on 5 November. The Guardian 10-14-2024

But never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy. NYT 10-15-2024

The dark comments highlight Trump's increasing bend toward authoritarian rhetoric in his third White House campaign, some political scientists told ABC News."It's really classic authoritarian discourse," said Steven Levitsky. ABC 10-15-24

Former President Trump doubled down on his insistence that his political rivals are “the enemy from within,” even after similar comments drew backlash and became a centerpiece of one of Vice President Harris’s campaign rallies. The Hill 10-16-2024

“I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people that have come in and destroying our country." CNN 10-20-2024

For the third time in a week, former president Donald Trump repeated his charge that Democrats allied against him are 'the enemy from within' in an interview with Fox News during which he called the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol 'a beautiful thing'. WaPo 10-20-2024

Cheers. DN (talk) 06:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"campaign rhetoric" so put it there, we have enough about his gobshitery already. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm getting a mixed message here, though I understand why. If it is better left in the Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Authoritarian and antidemocratic statements, I'm fine with whatever the consensus here is. Cheers DN (talk) 22:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I started a section at BLPN regarding recent deletion of denials from this BLP. Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Editor VQuakr responding at the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard referred the discussion to this page. This is the content I reverted here (added and reverted content bolded by me): Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic, which he denies, and Many of Trump's comments and actions have been considered racist,[811][812][813] though not by him. "Apples and oranges" apparently wasn't a good way to say he didn't deny saying/doing what the RS reported/characterized. Quoting VQuakr: The subject doesn't deny saying those things; if he credibly did then the section you're quoting would apply. That he said them, though, is a matter of record and not in dispute. The characterization of those statements doesn't require documentation of his disagreement with that characterization: we care much more about what sources have to say about a subject than what subjects have to say about themselves. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My point was "do RS support this edit", no as they do not say he has said the allegations have not been made. This (at maximum) needs re-wording so not to imply something that is false (he denies such allegations exist). Slatersteven (talk) 10:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

is attributed to ten sources in the body, Zenomonoz soibangla (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. Big Mocc (talk) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1252842766

I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. Riposte97 (talk) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. soibangla (talk) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think your sentence is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? Zenomonoz (talk) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. soibangla (talk) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[32][33][34] soibangla (talk) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LEAD isn't about number of cites. Per current article content on "fascist", it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? soibangla (talk) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in 2024 presidential campaign is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in Campaign rhetoric and political positions. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people ("my generals") who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as far-left radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add "fascist" to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included – which is why we should link to Trumpism where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — Czello ^(music) 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak the word, but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. soibangla (talk) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Trump the de facto leader of a neo-fascist party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including "nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment" Dimadick (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the whole party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist.

The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — Czello ^(music) 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. Riposte97 (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

waaay down there, the body says "fascist" with 13 references soibangla (talk) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trumpism would not exist without Trump. soibangla (talk) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — Czello ^(music) 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see no cause to deflect to Trumpism when its source is Trump, so it belongs here soibangla (talk) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive soibangla (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article – and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — Czello ^(music) 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems notable according to Steven Levitsky and the NYT..."never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy." NYT 10-15-2024. Cheers. DN (talk) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So notable I do not see the word "fascist" there. Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? Bob K31416 (talk) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - "I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully." I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric "The enemy within" & Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV subsection ("The enemy within" rhetoric). Cheers. DN (talk) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, it's the content of the article , not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. Just10A (talk) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Putting "fascist" in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. GoodDay (talk) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's "Achilles heel" which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. Moxy🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? DN (talk) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. Zaathras (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. soibangla (talk) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe "top military officer" is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it really DUE for the first sentence of the Real Estate section to read: 'Starting in 1968, Trump was employed at his father's real estate company, Trump Management, which owned racially segregated middle-class rental housing in New York City's outer boroughs.' ? I'd propose just saying 'Starting in 1968, Trump was employed at Trump Management, his father's rental real estate company.' Riposte97 (talk) 07:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

THis seems to be one of the many allegations against him, that he is racist. Slatersteven (talk) 10:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not surprising given his prominence, sources still reference the DOJ case from 1973, practically to this day. PBS Frontline Sept 2024...Cheers DN (talk) 10:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is kind of the point, this involves him and is part and parcel of his image. Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Granted. But allegations of racism are well covered explicitly, as they should be, rather than ham-fistedly insinuated in a section on business. Riposte97 (talk) 10:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's due. "Racially segregated" is more of a euphemism in this case. The policy was "Whites only". Pappy Fred named Trump president of the company in 1971, and in 1973 the Nixon administration DOJ sued the company, its president, and its chairman of the board (one member, one chairman=Fred) for discrimination against Black applicants for available housing which was then rented to White applicants. In 1975, the Trumps signed a consent degree (the "settlement") agreeing to desegregate. They started to rent to Black applicants mostly in a few run-down housing complexes, leading to another DOJ complaint in 1978. The case was closed in 1982, by which time it had become moot because "[s]hifting demographics would soon make it impractical to turn away black tenants". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well again, why not just say that? Why are we whispering behind our hands? Riposte97 (talk) 05:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/14/politics/the-biggest-predictor-of-how-someone-will-vote/index.html 50.100.82.183 (talk) 11:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this needs to be anywhere it is the article about the election. Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. 2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3 (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

is it? Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A recent discussion concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — Czello ^(music) 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

no, per MOS:CRIMINAL. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the China–United States trade war should be linked in the lead. Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a bad idea. Tariffs were a major part of Trumps economic policies. Zenomonoz (talk) 05:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit in which I added the link, along with another edit in which I added a link to his political positions, has been reverted. I've read the RFC, but I think exceptions could still be discussed on the talk page, because the two links I added are clearly relevant and helpful to the average reader, don't make the lead too bloated, and are linked in the body of the article as well. Maxeto0910 (talk) 18:10, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trump may prematurely declare victory. On the Sunday of the election, the banner

This article is about a person involved in a current event. Information may change rapidly as the event progresses, and initial news reports may be unreliable. The last updates to this article may not reflect the most current information. Please feel free to improve this article (but note that updates without valid and reliable references will be removed) or discuss changes on the talk page. (Learn how and when to remove this message)

will be on the page. Per Talk:2024 United States presidential election, until there is unanimous consensus among reliable media sources that Trump has been projected to win/lose the 2024 presidential election, do not post any such claims in the lead or article. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, but isn't that what we've been doing since the 2004 election (as in the first election where Wikipedia was a thing)? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And the sky is still blue. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

JohnAdams1800, please do not add the banner. This page has been a permanent "current event" since 2015, and banners were added repeatedly and promptly removed. Numerous editors are monitoring the page, and WP:NOTNEWS is standard practice. The banner is not needed. BTW, the election isn't on Sunday, it's on TUESDAY, November 5. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 09:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We go by what RS say, Trump is not an RS (possibly not even for his own statements). Slatersteven (talk) 09:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the Sunday of the election Is this intentional disinformation? The American presidential election is set by statute as "the Tuesday next after the first Monday in November" Zaathras (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s probably in good faith, as most countries obviously schedule elections when people doesn’t have to go to work. 86.31.178.164 (talk) 08:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understood that to mean "the Sunday immediately preceding election day". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That interpretation works for me. Less-than-crystal-clear wording, but "intentional disinformation"? Disinformation to trick a few voters into trying to vote on the wrong day? Or not trying to vote on the right day? Seems a stretch, and a big one. Here's a spoonful of WP:AGF, which is about not making accusations of bad faith without clear evidence to support them.

Agree with Space4T: Any attempts to update prematurely will be dealt with in short order, and we won't need this banner to make that happen.

Maybe the section heading could be a lot shorter, next time? That helps in multiple ways. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was what I meant. Anyway, I won't add the banner, as the article is ECP and among the most monitored articles on Wikipedia. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]