Talk:Dáil Éireann

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. No such user (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dáil Éireann → Dáil –

• This is the only topic that's called "Dáil" in English-language reliable sources, as you can tell from the Google Scholar results, and therefore is WP:PRECISE.
• It satisfies recognizability as it's the WP:COMMONNAME of this institution, which throughout its history has been much more commonly referred to as the "Dáil" or "Dail"[1]
• It is also more WP:CONCISE than using the full official name.
• A similar discussion resulted in renaming the Welsh parliament to Senedd. (t · c) buidhe 01:10, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open to other perspectives, and I'm enthusiastic about WP:COMMONNAME, but my initial response would be Oppose - it's a formal body, and its legal / constitutional name is Dáil Éireann, while Dáil is just a generic "assembly". Yes, we talk of The Dail in casual conversation, but this is an encyclopedia... and to be specific, I think we need the full name. I do not see a strong relevance for WP:CONCISE. But I agree that there is very little use of generic "Dáil" in English. So I will make a !vote after more community input. SeoR (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - and I return to this, where it seems to me that there is a clear consensus among contributing editors who regularly deal with topics pertaining to Ireland. Guliolopez has provided a clear policy-based summation, and the points about concision (minor savings achieved in return for some loss) and the definite article (dail = an assembly, An Dail / The Dail = the lower house of the Irish parliament, a la The Bronx or Den Haag / The Hague) are discussed. WP:CONCISE does not trump all other points, and the BBC is not an expert arbiter, good as they may be on many topics. This is an encyclopedia and for a body such as this, formal treatment is appropriate, and a redirect can (demonstrably) handle any more casual usages. I suggest that the outcome of this discussion is clear, and propose that it be closed, leaving the name as it is. SeoR (talk) 22:30, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support – The common name is Dáil, and as there is no other 'Dáil' to disambiguate from, there is no reason to retain the 'Éireann' suffix, as it doesn't even provide additional information for the average English reader, who will not understand what it means. Per WP:CONCISE, 'Dáil' is to be preferred. As for the 'casual conversation' mentioned above, does that honourable editor consider the BBC news website to be written in a 'casual, conversational' tone? The BBC uses plain 'Dáil', and there is no reason we should not do so either. RGloucester — ☎ 16:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support – per Senedd, Althing, Verkhovna Rada etc. Dáil Éireann for the Infobox name. Declangi (talk) 19:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - As with SeoR, my opinion is that the current title, "Dáil Éireann", is the most natural, precise, recognisable and consistent name of the subject. And, as such, automatically meets 4 of the 5 expectations of WP:TITLE. The 5th part of the WP:TITLE guideline, that "Dáil Éireann" perhaps doesn't meet, is the "concise" expectation. However, my opinion is that the proposed title, "Dáil", while concise, is not reflective of the common name. I say this because the common name is "The Dáil". Including the definite article. Like "The Hague" or "The Bronx" or other similar subjects where the article forms part of the proper and common name. A version which excludes the definite article ("Dáil"), in my view, inappropriately prioritises the goal for "conciseness" over the other guidelines considerations (not least "natural" and "recognisable"). In short, it is my view that "Dáil Éireann" represents the most natural, precise, recognisable and consistent name for the subject. And, while "Dáil" or "The Dáil" may be more consise, neither is quite as natural, precise, recognisable and consistent. Guliolopez (talk) 17:03, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very strange argument, and I suggest you read WP:THE again. It's simply a matter of Wikipedia convention that the definite article is not included in the title. I don't know how you reconcile your argument with the presence of Senedd, Althing, Riksdag, Bundestag, &c. &c. Of course, all of these are normally referred to in English with the definite article, and it is absurd to suggest that anyone would write 'Riksdag is the parliament of Sweden', because of course, that's not how English works...but Wikipedia titles only include the definite article in exceptional circumstances, and there is no evidence that the application of the relevant conventions in the case of the Dáil should differ from their application to any of the other examples listed above. RGloucester — ☎ 19:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi RGloucester.

• RE: "very strange argument". We're each entitled to our opinion. And to express it. (Seeking input/opinion from others being the purpose of these discussions.) While you may feel the need to characterise another's inputs as "strange" or "absurd", I do not agree with such a charecterisation, and my own opinion remains as above. Namely that we shouldn't prioritise the proposed "concise" title over the existing "natural" and "recognisable" title.
• RE: "it is absurd to suggest that anyone would write 'Riksdag is the parliament of Sweden'". You might be right. And while I'm not sure where this particular strawman has come from, I have not heard anyone (and certainly I have not) made such an argument.
• RE: "reconcile your argument with the presence of Senedd, Althing, [etc]". I am less familiar with the Icelandic parliament. And its common and official and natural name (in either English or Icelandic or how an Icelandic speaker might refer to their parliament when speaking English). But I think the existing title of *this article* represents an accurate/common/recognisable/natural title. If there's to be a separate discussion/proposal on other/overlapping/parallel topics, then that's cool. I'm only responding to the proposal raised here.
• RE: "Wikipedia titles only include the definite article in exceptional circumstances". Again, you may well be right. But, I've not advocated (and have not heard others advocate) moving this article to "The Dáil". I've advocated that we leave it as it is.

Anyway, while I may have felt the need to respond to the characterisation of my contributions as "strange" (or "absurd"), I'm otherwise not inclined to contribute further. I don't agree with the proposal. And have explained why I don't agree with the proposal. I'm not inclined to argue the point further. Guliolopez (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You suggested that Dáil was not the common name, as the common name was The Dáil, with the definite article. I pointed out that this was 'absurd', because on Wikipedia, these two titles are equivalent, and negating the 'commonness' of Dáil because the definite article is not in the title does not jibe with every other article on a parliament on Wikipedia. We don't have the article for Riksdag at Sveriges riksdag merely because Riksdag would normally be referred to as The Riksdag in speech and writing. RGloucester — ☎ 13:31, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - The current title, "Dáil Éireann", is instantly recognisable, frequently used in political discourse, and reasonably concise for the intended purpose. The suggested contraction to "Dáil" is too informal for an encyclopedia or any academic purpose. It is worth noting that there are two other pages, Dáil Éireann (Irish Republic) and Dáil Éireann (Irish Free State) which are in reference to the legislatures from which this body claims direct descent, most notably in terms of successive numbering. In the event that there is a change to this page's title, would the rationale applied by supporters of this proposed change mean these titles would need to change in tandem? And if not, why not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronanmurphy98 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, in agreement with Guliolopez – I guess, being pedantic, "An Dáil" would make more sense, if one were forced to choose; sticking an English article onto an Irish word produces nothing but a linguistic monstrosity, and in any case the grammatical rules for the use of articles are so different between the two languages that this is kind of a moot point. English is absurdly inconsistent in its use of definite articles with proper nouns – q.v. even such eccentricities as "we were at Court" (not "at the Court"), "I have swum in the Pacific" vs "I have swum in Windermere", and trying to generalize these non-rules to other languages is a circle that cannot be squared. But my dhá phingin is that "Dáil Éireann" is ceart go leor. Archon 2488 (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Guliolopez and others. The WP:CONCISE problem is solved with the redirect already in place. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:57, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  What you are suggesting, in short, is simply ignoring WP:CONCISE altogether in every article. Might as well move When the Pawn... to [[When the Pawn Hits the Conflicts He Thinks Like a King What He Knows Throws the Blows When He Goes to the Fight and He'll Win the Whole Thing 'fore He Enters the Ring There's No Body to Batter When Your Mind Is Your Might So When You Go Solo, You Hold Your Own Hand and Remember That Depth Is the Greatest of Heights and If You Know Where You Stand, Then You Know Where to Land and If You Fall It Won't Matter, Cuz You'll Know That You're Right]] because the WP:CONCISE problem is solved with the redirect already in place Red Slash 21:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the old slippery slope logical fallacy. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Guliolopez and others. Spleodrach (talk) 07:56, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. I doubt there is a single English-speaking person in the universe who A) recognizes Dáil Éireann, and yet B) would not recognize Dáil as referring to the same thing. They are equally recognizable and one is significantly more common and precise. Red Slash 21:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What? No. Dáil literally means "a gathering", whereas Dáil Éireann means the lower house of the Irish parliament. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The WP:CONCISE argument is a fallacy. "Dáil Éireann" is concise. "Dáil" is not more concise, it's just shorter by eight characters. Red Slash's example is a good example of where the article title is concise where the full title is not, and nicely highlights the difference between that article and this one. In this case, the full title of the legislature is the appropriate title for the article. Scolaire (talk) 18:11, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Scolaire: May I ask how you feel about Riksdag, then? Should it be moved to the official Sveriges riksdag? Or, how about Bundestag to Deutscher Bundestag? RGloucester — ☎ 14:20, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What I think about the Riksdag and the Bundestag is that they fall under WP:OSE. In this case, I believe the full title of the legislature is the appropriate title for the article. In this case, as in others, consensus should decide, and consensus seems to favour retention of "Dáil Éireann". Scolaire (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not an answer. Consensus is based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines, not a vote. As of now, most people here seem to be ignoring them in their entirety. I offered a thought experiment to test whether your logic had any backing. Perhaps you could've persuaded me, as such. Instead, you've made clear that your opinion has no basis in Wikipedia policies and guidelines at all. Bravo! RGloucester — ☎ 20:01, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will simply ignore the ad hominem, as no doubt will the closer. My argument stands. Scolaire (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support This hearkens back to a previous discussion, where I had proposed moving the modifier in constituencies from (Dáil Éireann constituency) to (Dáil constituency). This move was made, although I will note the difference between the difference between the name of body and its use as an adjectival noun. For example, within the text of the Constitution proper, the body is always called Dáil Éireann. However, in the explanatory notes of the Fourth and Ninth Amendments on the same page, when used as an adjectival noun, the term used is Dáil … elections. We also have the term Dáil Constituencies in the short title of legislation, e.g. Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Act 2017, even as the long title reads, An Act to provide for the number of members of Dáil Éireann.

But even having distinguished this discussion from the previous one, I do find myself moderately supporting the move. While in the Irish language, dáil means both an assembly or gathering in general, and, when capitalised, usually refers to a house within the Oireachtas, in the English language, the term Dáil invariably refers to the parliamentary body. Whatever the arguments that may be advanced on Vicipéid as to the alternative meanings of Dáil in its undistinguished form, they don't apply on the English language Wikipedia. Oireachtas can also mean gathering or assembly in Irish, but that alone doesn't compel us to distinguish it by titling the page Houses of the Oireachtas. Whatever about the use by the BBC, "dail -eireann" has 25,300 results on RTÉ, showing that it is a generally used concise title, whereas "dail eireann" has 3,660 results. Take a recent RTÉ headline, for example, Dáil passes measure to increase stamp duty for investment funds (where within the text of the article, we have … has been passed by the Dáil without a vote.

Dáil satisfies four of the five WP:CRITERIA. The educated reader from within or outside Ireland would be as likely to recognise it as its current title; it is as likely, if not sometimes more likely, to be how it is referred to when linked in other articles (e.g. so-and-so was elected to the Dáil in 1989); it is not so short as to be ambiguous, so distinguishes it from other bodies; and is no longer that it needs to be. While it is not currently consistent with other pages within the WP:IRELAND project, as the primary article, other titles such as List of women in Dáil Éireann, Dáil Éireann (Irish Republic), Seanad Éireann etc. should be moved in parallel if this page is moved. It is, however, consistent with naming conventions for other parliamentary bodies with a unique name, e.g. Senedd. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. The proposed name has been shown to satisfy WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE, and I think that's sufficient to make this a clear move. The Senedd argument would also give this a degree of consistency, all other things being equal. I don't find the "oppose" arguments above particularly convincing here. Just to address the principal oppose arguments:
  1. that Dáil Éireann is more recognizable than Dáil - this is not evidenced and seems unlikely, per Red Slash; if you recognize Dáil Éireann then you'll recognize Dáil.
  2. that Dáil means simply a "gathering", and is therefore not WP:PRECISE - but this is the English Wikipedia, not the Irish Wikipedia, and in English Dáil only has one common meaning.
  3. that the CONCISE argument is a "fallacy" - this argument doesn't match years of practice at WP:RM; removing one word from a two-word title will always make it more concise.

  Please let me know if there's another reason to oppose that I've missed, but overall I think the policy favours the move and it should go ahead. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 09:32, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. To say that “Dáil” means nothing else is an English-centric disrespect of other language and culture. It means assembly, and is unique only because few Gaelic words are borrowed into English. It has to be either “Dáil Éireann” or “The Dáil”. This is a case of a false claim of “concise”, it is false because it is shortened by discarding important information. Concise does not mean brief. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:10, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as a solution looking for a problem. And is there an WP:ENGVAR issue here? At encyclopedia-level discourse in Ireland, it's usually Dáil Éireann. —  AjaxSmack  03:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Guliolopez and Seor. And I had hoped that we were long past the days of editors advocating the use of the BBC as an arbiter of Irish matters. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:40, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I agree that we should not use the BBC as an arbiter of Irish matters. We should probably even make it formally standard that mainstream Irish media publications are used for MOS:IRELAND purposes. However, having cited RTÉ above in this discussion as using Dáil in ordinary common references, a search of recent legislation found the same in The Irish Times, [2] and [3] similarly [4] in regards to the Seanad. Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but Irish language media also refer to it as the Dáil rather than Dáil Éireann, e.g. [5].

I don't think that the contention is the “Dáil” means nothing else, but that it has a single standard meaning in English usage, just as a other Irish words such as Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Oireachtas have a specific political institutional meaning when used in general speech. Other editors have mentioned the Dáil has a wider meaning than Ireland's house of representatives, which it does, but not given an example here on Wikipedia of when it has been used to mean that.

However, AjaxSmack suggests that at encyclopedia-level discourse in Ireland, it's usually Dáil Éireann. So I checked my copy of The Oxford Companion to Irish History (OUP, 2002). This does indeed contain separate entries for dáil and Dáil Éireann. So while I do think the balance remains in favour of moving, there is a reasonable case not to do so, specifically for this reason. My ultimate approach would be to move to Dáil, but include a paragraph on the page with information on the general or historical Irish language use of the term. It's notable that we don't currently have an entry for Dáil with the information on its pre-1919 meaning that is considered by contributors here to be distinguishing. Maybe we should though, Wikipedia can always be expanded and a discussion like this can be what prompt is. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 09:59, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]