Talk:Common raven/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Common raven. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

In the movie Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls, Jim Carrey's character names the common raven as the smartest of all birds. Is there any truth to that? --ThatNateGuy 23:55, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I can't remember any sources to cite, but a few assorted facts: At a zoo show I went to a long while back, the zookeepers stated that some parrots are close to being the smartest birds, having intelligences about on par with a 2- or 3-year old human, but ravens are even a bit smarter. Don't know any definitive sources, though, so I'd leave it out until we can consult a bird book or something. --141.149.252.16 00:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

This article (http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,476266,00.html) has a quote from Thomas Bugnyar (a researcher working with ravens in Germany) that supports the 2-year-old human equivalence claim. For the more general problem of quantifying raven intelligence, well there's the "avian IQ" scale that has been floating around the news somewhat recently, and which places corvids at the top. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4286965.stm for an example news story. The researcher's webpage is http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/lefebvre/, although my cursory glance over his publications has not revealed anything that would be a direct match for an "avian IQ scale". - Pmatikainen 12:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The african Grey parrot is listed among the Sentient animals (although I would argue that all animals are to some degree sentient). So at least on parrot species is supposed to be intelligent. The Raven is also supposed to be preternaturally intelligent, probably the root cause of its reputation. The fact that Crows studied showed tool use is surprising; primates learn tool use from one another, whereas the crows studied likely just "thought it up".

I have a small problem with the article though; much as I like Ravens, I'm sorry to say they are extinct in Ireland. The last Raven "community" was reportedly destroyed in Mayo by a certain farmer whose name we will not curse. Or so I hear. I have certainly never heard of them here, and they were a protected species before their destruction so it should be documented somewhere. By the way, I'm ranting about this because they are shown on the map as being endemic to Éire. They are, but they are sadly gone. Hopefully they'll be re-introduced... - Cathal

I do not believe the comment above to be true: The 1999 population of Ravens in Ireland was estimated at 3,500 pairs and growing. There may be some areas where it is struggling, but it's certainly not extinct. jimfbleak 07:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The correct term would be "extirpated", meaning no longer in that place, though not extinct. An extinct animal no longer exists anywhere. And yes, there seems to be a general agreement among ornithologists that ravens are the most intelligent of birds, with crows and African Grey parrots coming in close behind. EthanL 10:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Bernd Heinrich, in Mind of the Raven, reports that C. corax has an encephalization index of "19, the highest member of the corvid group and therefore the highest of any bird." on page 326 of the paperback edition.

I thought that ravens were scavengers that mainly feed on what is already dead. Is this true?

see the article - they'll eat almost anything, and carrion is a significant part of the diet. jimfbleak 07:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I seem to remember each member of the family of Corvidae having an interesting name, murder of crows, parliement of rooks, etc. I forget what a flock of ravens is called and the article seems to be missing it. Highlandlord 03:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

An Unkindness of Ravens, so I hear. http://birding.about.com/library/weekly/aa032700a.htm Can't speak to its accuracy. 68.225.240.87 23:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is actually quite a few alternatives; conspiracy, murder or unkindness. You can find more at List of collective nouns for birds and more generally at English collective nouns. -- Solipsist 16:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is the word 'raven' capitalised in the name of this article and throughout the body? I would bet anything on that being wrong, and in fact i checked Dictionary.com it appears to confirm that it is. It's been capitalised in the article since at least late 2004, though, so i'm worried that maybe there's some crazy consensus that's been reached that i'm not aware of. Is that the case, or has everybody been just totally ignoring the error for the last 2 years? ~ lav-chan @ 07:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Its a project style thing. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life and its archived talk pages where there have been many arguments about whether common names of animals and plants should be capitalised. The use of capitalisation is most secure for birds, as described at Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds, due to it being the convention used by the American Ornithologists' Union (I think). -- Solipsist 08:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• I see.... I guess i never really noticed the debate before. That's bizarre, i don't understand the rationality behind capitalising it, especially when it can cause so much confusion (e.g., your WikiProject Birds page mentions a difference between a Starling and a starling, and the article in question here seems to suggest that a Raven is somehow distinct from a raven). But i guess i don't have any room to talk, i'm obviously not above creative capitalisation. :shrug: Thanks for the explanation anyway. ~ lav-chan @ 10:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't have citation handy, but Ravens are the only birds which fly upside down (inverted) purely for pleasure. are any of the following acceptable citations: http://www.nps.gov/archive/brca/raven.html (just above the heading "Conservation") http://www.carleton.ca/orientation/fall/FYEO.html (second line) feel free for somebody to add it Nessieliberation 23:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This strikes me as misleading - Common Ravens are aerobatic, but neither they nor any bird (including hummers) can maintain upside-down flight. What this probably refers to is the ability of several species to roll in flight, either to defend themselves (as the source says) or in display (some birds of prey, like the harriers, also roll as part of an aerial food pass). The Chough is probably the most agile of the temperate corvids, but even that species cannot fly upside down. I've never seen or read (in a reliable source) of any bird flying upside down in the implied sense. jimfbleak 06:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

A few improvements needed with a quick look over.

• Diet can be massively expanded.
• Breeding is unwikified. Include Life history info there also (how long they live etc)
• We need to gut the laundry lists of cultural references and organise what we keep better. We don't need to keep every reference in culture. Better to have a few well explained refs from different cultures. Anything not specific to the Common Raven can go without question.
• Other species can go.
• Refs, particularly for intelligence.

Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all of your comments. Also, I added a subheading on vocalizations. Hey jude, don't let me down 22:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Me too, all points above are good. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 23:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Umm...discussing headings. Characteristics is a non-descriptive heading which means (in this case) what makes a raven a raven really, some other articles have used it in the Description heading, which is now called identification. Hence the use of behaviour there. Does anyone have strong feelings on this? I prefer Description to Identification as that is what is on Kakapo and some other bird and dino FAs I have worked on..

I'll add that I am all for variation in sections and subsections in cases of critters which have emphasis in certain areas (e.g. migration in Arctic Terns, conservation in Kakapo, taxonomic issues etc. I am just thinking about streamlining/standardising as much as possible. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 23:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha... I am not particularly favor or against anything. Well if you perfer Description to Identification, go ahead and change it. Cheers. Luffy487 04:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, it isn't that I particularly prefer it, though it is more broad and hence more able to be used in a wider range of articles (eg dinosaurs), but I think uniformity is good for a professional look to the whole shebang and it seems alot easier to cahnge this one than all the others....cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 05:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I prefer Description, just because it's a more general term and doesn't have the 'go out and find some ravens' connotation, so I did something bold and changed it. Change it back if you feel it's needed. Australian Raven 23:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

How much of that info should we leave there? I think some of it is actually widely known, but half of it doesn't matter. Comments? Australian Raven 12:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Tricky - most important ones (I guess) would be nth american trickster, norse hugin & munin, shakespeare ref of use of bird, EA Poe and tower of london. Then all the rest on a ravens in pop cult page.

PS: Lets move this to raven talk page :) cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

PPS: The bible stuff I forgot - thoughts? cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Should I move some of the trivia on ravens in general to the Raven page, since it does apply to them? Hey jude, don't let me down 00:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I think, looking at the contexts, that virtually all the trivia refers to this species - i moved a lot of it from the raven page!. jimfbleak 05:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

We could create an article Ravens in culture or we could just throw it all out and hope no-one notices...Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Awwww, make a page...I hate chucking things out....Ravens in popular culture...we've done it with several dino FAs, Tyrannosaurus comes to mind cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 06:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There. Moved. Now the trick is to write a 2-3 para concise summary to put on Common raven page.....cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 06:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe use the one I wrote for albatross as a template. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've moved a couple of refs to popcult. Ajimfbleak 07:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Should any of the more notable (and referenced) popular culture items be flagged up on the Common Raven page? That section is very bare without, but obviously we don't want it to become a recreation of the moved list?jimfbleak 12:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've done 2 paras as a rough guide. I thought of a third dealing with just the british isles (eg. Bran + Isle of Man + Tower of London), but thought this may be a bit anglocentric. Have a go at tweaking it. I structured it as 1 ancient and 1 modern para. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Beware! If referring to the species, use Common Raven, if not, then use raven. Cheers! Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I can find references to CRs weighing c.1.25 kg. However, I remember, years ago, having some email correspondence with a raven researcher in Alaska who indicated that he had weights greater than this - well over 2 kg I think, maybe 3 kg - making the species (or maybe that particular subspecies or population) the heaviest passerine. If someone comes across a ref to this, it would add an interesting tidbit to the article. Maias 05:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh... different subspecies have different size and weight. It have reference to their size but not their weight. Luffy487 14:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be highly suspicious of any weight that high. The most common weight I've seen listed is around 3 lbs (1.36 kg). I've never read any literature which spoke of a raven weighing more than 4 pounds, or 1.8 kg - and that's rare. I have heard that ravens in Alaska are larger than those in the lower 48, but that might also be a comparison between the northern raven, C.c. principalis, found in Alaska, Candada and northern US, and the western raven, C.c. sinuatus, found in the western US. I'd be interested to see some proof for any such weight! EthanL (talk) 03:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The other thing I was thinking of was how we illustrate the article. Ideally every pic should add something not covered in another. Not just another, 'this is a raven' pic (though we do have some nice ones so a different one can be used on Raven and in pop cult. page. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 23:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be good to get one of a raven in flight, one foraging or feeding, and some pictures of chicks or a nest. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

yeah I was thinking that. nthing much on commons...maybe check flickr...cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 03:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the USFWS but not much joy. If we don't have any other luck we can ask people to use theirs; once the article is looking good (GA-FA quality) is the best time to ask people with good pictures to donate.Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, we'll hold off that for a tic. The other thing is that do we feel of the pix on commons that we have the best photo available for the taxobox? I suspect so but not by much. A couple of the others I really like too.

is nice but the beak is a bit out of focus...cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 03:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I took that pic and I hate the way the beak is blurred. Unfortunately the raven was "cawing" at the time so his head and beak were in motion when I snapped it. I've tried sharpening it with Photoshop but didn't accomplish much - but then I'm not all that good with the software. If anyone would like to take a crack at it, let me know and I'll be happy to send you the original, unedited image. By the way, I've been watching you guys work this page over, and it's an interesting process. One question: Is the range map in the taxobox failing to display for anyone else? If so, is that intentional? I think range maps are critical for bird articles, and the fact that it isn't displaying really bugs me. 'Card 12:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, me too. I can't figure out what the difference is in the text between this and American Crow where I could see the box.cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

A few pictures have been added recently, including one in flight and one looking at an unfortunate mole. There are some public-domain pictures of nests here: http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=160 . They're not fabulous pictures, so I'm not sure if they're worth putting in, but maybe they're worth considering. Kla'quot 21:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone else has read Ravens in Winter by Bernd Heinrich, but it really stresses the raven's unique recruitment behavior, in which dominant juvenile ravens recruit others to food bonanzas to help them overpower the resident territorial adults. I was about to add a paragraph about this when I realized it doesn't really fit under Characteristics, Distribution and Habitat, or Identification. Where should it go? Australian Raven 23:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Its either a social behaviour or a feeding behaviour. It would probably be worth creating a section for social behaviour, they also roost in groups and have “Aerial assemblies”. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll run around and create a new section, then. What are these "Aerial Assembly" things? Australian Raven 23:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. I created the section, but I wasn't sure how to word it. Feel free to take a pair of scissors and fix it. Also, why don't you add whatever these 'aerial assembly' things are? Australian Raven 23:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll give it a go in a bit, I'm just reading about it now. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved it around a bit and will do some more playing with it soon. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I just got this Goodwin Crows of the World from the library. Man, the detail! Now trying to figure out how much to incorporatecheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 06:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

This looks interesting and would be useful for the purposes of citing, but my UNI doesn't get it. Anyone else know how to obtain it?

• Foufopoulos J, Litinas N (2005) "Crows and ravens in the Mediterranean (the Nile Valley, Greece and Italy) as presented in the ancient and modern proverbial literature" BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF PAPYROLOGISTS 42(1-4): 7-39

Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, esoteric or what!? What a journal. Sorry, no idea but agree looks interesting...cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 00:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

You can probably get it through www.oxbowbooks.com if you think it worth it. Maias 01:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Now that the collaboration period is over (???), I was wondering if we should send this to peer review for feature article candidacy..........Pmeleski 00:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Umm...I don't know. I left a note on WP native american and WP norse mythology for good refs for some of the mytho stuff. I've been a bit lazy but reckon there is still stuff to do. If oyu wanna get some fresh eyes then PR or even a GA nom may be good. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 01:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I cannot find much stuff about intelligence that has been formally tested. It all seems to be anecdotal. Maias 02:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody else think we should move the reference to the raven's widespread cultural "use" out of the middle of the names paragraph in the intro to this article? It seems to have gotten a bit lost in the shuffle. It should at least go at the beginning or the end of that paragraph, rather than falling right in the middle! MeegsC 12:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Took me a minute to figure out what you mean...yeah go for it. Have a play, the lead needs a bit of a massage anyway. Another thing is that the lead should be a summary of salient points in the article - are there any more which should go in. One of the reasons I stuck a chunk on alternate and old names is that the lead is pretty small otherwise. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 13:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on expanding and sourcing the section. There's plenty on the web. Another point of view which needs to be represented is here: http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/08/01/reviews/990801.01quammet.html . Kla'quot 08:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"Common Ravens usually live 10 to 15 years in the wild... the longest known lifespan being 13 years for a banded bird."

That's a clear contradiction, though I'm not quite sure how to fix it. PenguinJockey 19:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The citation for 13 is an old paper, its possible that older birds have since been found. It needs fixing though - I'll look into it. Sabine's Sunbird talk

It certainly is a cool picture, but I don't know enough to ID it. Kla'quot 03:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know my east asian corvids. The bill looks heavy enough but the bird overall looks quite slight. I'm more inclined to think its a crow of some sort. It would be good to know which, as it is a good picture. I'll ask ast WP:BIRD Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked up in crows & ravens of the world - only 2 are native to Japan, Carrion Crow (C. corone) and Jungle crow (C. macrorhynchos) and it says race japonensis has a very large bill. I know where this image is going.......cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Common Raven occurs (or can occur) in Hokkaido. Image is almost certainly Jungle Crow. Maias 12:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Good sleuthing. Thanks! Kla'quot 15:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You can also identify this bird by its posture. If anybody can find a picture of a common raven with its legs extended in such a crow-like fashion, I'd like to see it! EthanL (talk) 02:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

We could have the last para on old names together with a note on naming by linnaeus and then the molecular split all in a section on taxonomic history which seems to be a way of dealing with some stuff that is scattered elsewhere...what do y'all think? cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the molecular split section is currently too technical. It should be expanded and/or rewritten to explain why this evidence is significant. Also, would the descriptions of subspecies also go into "Taxonomic history"? Kla'quot 15:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for moving that technical stuff to the end, right before the refs. That would make this an article for the general public, but with the good tech stuff for those in the know placed near the end. That should make it more appealing to the average reader. -- Fyslee/talk 15:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

See I love all the stuff about how they got all their names etc. I know on a few articles I've worked on it has ended up in a section below the lead called Taxonomy or some variation thereof (see Blue Whale and all the other rorquals). Actually there's a good model. I think that given the variations in raven subspecies are fairly minor to the average layperson that it can go in taxonomy rather than description, expecaially as the molecualr stuff provides an interesting addendum. ok then.... :)cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 21:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion over the status of "largest passerine". This article lists the common raven and thick-billed raven as tied for largest. The article for Passerine lists the thick-billed raven as largest and "...some Common Ravens come close"; the article for Superb Lyrebird lists that bird as largest; while the Lyrebird article lists it as third largest, after thick-billed and common ravens! A Google search for largest passerine returns mostly common raven, or common raven and thick-billed, although a handful of sites in Australia list the superb lyrebird as largest, their location casting doubt on their authenticity. Can we find a definitive answer to this question? EthanL (talk) 03:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it could depend on what measure of largest you use. One may be heavier and one may be longer. Also most species tend to have a range of body sizes , and the range of both species might overlap. The Northern raven by virtue of its wide range exibits large variation in body size also due to latitude (Bergmann's Rule). Body mass is the most useful indicator of body size (the lyrebird's taile makes a estimate of body length useless) According to BNA the body mass of the Northern Raven in Nova Scotia is on average 1,230g (n = 15), in Alaska 1,174g ± 197 (n = 11) in the winter (less in summer) and 785g ± 71.9 in California. I'll try and find some measurements for the other species. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I always assumed that Lyrebirds would be the heaviest passerines (I think they must be the longest, tip of beak to tip of tail, unless some African weaver has longer breeding plumes) but HANZAB 5 gives recorded weights of Superb Lyrebirds at no more than 1,200 g, with Albert's Lyrebird similar, so some high latitude raven is probably the most massive. Incidentally, the single egg of the S. Lyrebird weighs just over 60 g. This may be a passerine record. Maias 05:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The article has hugely improved and looks like it's in great shape now. There are a couple of remaining {{Fact}} tags, one for "fluidity of mating patterns" and one for counting people behind bird blinds. I've looked for solid refs for both; I can't find anything on the first and the second seems to be a popular tale rather than a scientific observation.[1] If we can't find anything on these soon, I think both statements should be removed. Looking through this Talk page, it seems there are also some outstanding questions about size and weight. Is there anything else major still left to do? Kla'quot 22:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm musing on the images. I think it would be great to find eggs/nest images or something. I am wondering what the Raven_croak.jpg image in Distribution and habitat and image in Vocalization add, but I concede the article may be alittle bare without. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 23:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

There are some good nest photos on Flickr. I'll see if I can get one of them free-licensed. Kla'quot 03:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Once we've mused upon this (I have a couple of places to check but am a bit tied up entertaining today ) we can ask a copyeditor to give it a going over. Circeus is really good, rather than PR per se, then take it to FAC. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 23:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be great:) Speaking of a copyedit, there are a couple of style issues: The article seems to use "Raven" as a short form of "Common Raven". This is likely to be confusing -- should we use "Common Raven" throughout when referring to the species rather than the genus? Also, we seem to use the term "subspecies" and "race" interchangably and should pick one. My vote is for "subspecies." Kla'quot 01:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

We completely need to use raven only for the genus. I agree that subspecies is preferable too. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Ditto, though older books do refer to them simply as 'ravens' for Corvus corax.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 04:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

They were probably British books. A lot did, and still do, use Robin for European Robin, Storm Petrel for European Storm-petrel, Gannet for Northern Gannet etc. Drives colonials (particularly in the US) nuts. I used to tell them "we named them first". Sabine's Sunbird talk 10:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

There are a couple of books on corvid intelligence on Amazon - [http://www.amazon.com/Bird-Brains-Intelligence-Ravens-Magpies/dp/0871569566/ref=pd_rhf_f_2/102-7812740-2319337 this] and [http://www.amazon.com/Company-Crows-Ravens-John-Marzluff/dp/0300100760/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/102-7812740-2319337 this] look interesting. Would love to get a ref for the counting thingy...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

They're both at my local library. I'll try to get hold of them this week. Kla'quot 05:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Do we want a distant one like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/transatlantique/118296346/ or a closeup like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/villinikon/166144201/ or this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidarnar/497002163/ ? The problem with closeups is the risk, which I'm not sure how to assess, that the photographer disturbed the birds. There is a fuller list here: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=raven+nest . BTW nearly all of these are copyrighted, but when asked nicely people are often willing to free-license a photo. Kla'quot 03:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The distant one to my mind looks like Rook nests, not ravens. Rooks are colonial, Common Ravens are not. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what a raven nest looks like, but I think a poor quality accurate one is better than an inaccurate one. Great hunting BTW..cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 04:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest asking for this one. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lastef/162510104/ Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fantastic. OK, I'll ask.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 04:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

OK - I have a reply and she'll let us use it, though would like attribution. Now question is, to load it onto commons as we can't link directly to flickr (can we?). Am a bit tied up. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this is terrific. Can you ask her to change the licensing info *on Flickr* though? Right now it says, "All rights reserved" which makes it liable to be deleted from Commons. It is not sufficient for a photo to be released "for Wikipedia"; we need it licensed to allow commercial use and derivative works as well. As for attribution, we always do it through the Commons description only, not in articles. Kla'quot 06:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It is changed to "Some rights reserved" (phew) cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 15:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll ask Circeus for a once over as apart from a copyedit and the 3-4 things listed above I think we're set.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 08:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Circeus has started a Comment page, which I'm wading through. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 06:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I did a bit of web research today and found a site called www.kingdomofbhutan.com (the Kingdom of Bhutan's tourism site). According to the site, the Common Raven is the country's national bird, and a raven figure appears on the royal crown (representing one of the country's most important guardian deities -- Gonpo Jarodochen or Mahakala). Would this be considered a reliable enough source to use in place of the current [citation needed] comment in the article? MeegsC | Talk 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is a another reference [2]. Shyamal 10:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Both are very tempting to use (thanks, detectives!) but I have not seen the book, and was musing on the website. When I typed in a few words to google and saw the similarity of the texts I started wondering which came from where....I'll have to see who wrote the website.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, as an official gov't website I'd say its OK...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record, it shouldn't be too difficult to source. The Raven is more than an official symbol (cf. state rocks/insect/plants), it's also an important spiritual symbol that apparently appears on the royal crown. Circeus 14:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

OK - Given I have lots of references from Goodwin (Crows ofthe World boo) I am tempted to move it to the bottom under a heading references and abbreviate the particular page refs as Goodwin pXX etc, like Red Barn Murder ref section. But do we then call middle bit citations, footnotes or..shall I just leave as is? cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 23:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I hate that style of referencing. For God's sake, the book has an index right? I've seen that issue raised as an objection in FAs, and while it may be important in an unindexed book it isn't the norm in science referencing. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm not fussed either way. Just wanna make sure it gets thorugh FAC...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 04:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

If it comes up as an issue in FAC I'll come out swinging. It's not a required as far as I can tell. If you've gone to the trouble of finding a book it isn't hard to look in an index, and, like I said, it is not the scientific norm. Pages are never cited in journal articles (except for book sections) and I've never seen it in monographs or textbooks either. Overall the article is looking really strong now, btw.Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

If you've ever added citations to an article, you should know how difficult it is to locate any specific fact in a book. And if the article is nominated as is, I'll be happy to launch the debate with you.Circeus 15:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

OK there we go. Takes us over 50 refs now :) cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 23:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Our molecular studies section refers to one clade as both California and Californian; we should probably go with whatever was the official clade name in the study, if anybody still has that available! MeegsC | Talk 14:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The former is correct. I've fixed it. Cheers, Kla'quot 15:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the para below. In discussion above, some sources on corvid intelligence were suggested and I've looked through them. I can't find anything about the bird blind story in either book. Savage's book says there was a good counting experiment done with "Jacob the Raven" by Otto Koehler, but Marzluff and Angell say that Koehler worked mostly with Western Jackdaws. The Intelligence section is pretty long and solid now anyway.

"Another popular belief is that Ravens can count. It is standard practice for ornithologists and photographers using a hide to observe birds nests to take an assistant with them when entering a hide- the birds will usually be agitated at the new presence, but when the assistant leaves, they will assume all is well, unaware that there is still an observer in the hide. It is a widely held belief that Common Ravens are not fooled by this strategy, and are aware that there is still someone present when the assistant has left. However, if enough people enter and exit the hide, the ravens lose count and the observer left in the hide remains undetected.^{[citation needed]}"

Kla'quot 02:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

All the searches I did using raven and counting turned up studies where it was the humans doing the counting (bird surveys). Probably best left out. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the last uncited statement, copied below. I've been looking for a source and so far they all say that Common Ravens mate for life, in contrast to crows which are more social.

"Like many birds, pairing does not necessarily mandate sexual monogamy, and raven habits show fluidity in this regard.^{[citation needed]}"

Kla'quot 03:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

OK lets go...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 03:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

From Heinrich's Mind of the Raven, p. 119-120: "Ravens have always been assumed to be monogamous and keep their mates for life. But as with almost everything about them, it depends strictly on circumstances. There is ample documentation in the literature showing that if one member of the pair gets killed, a replacement may appear within a day. Recently John Marzluff, who has continued working with corvids in the western United States, documented extra-pair copulations in ravens inhabiting the open country in Idaho. He saw four males other than the mate (who was wing-tagged) copulate with a female, and he saw extra-pair copulations at the two nests under observations. John said 'the sneakers wwait until the exact moment when the territorial males leaves, which is very infrequently. They streamed in as soon as the male left. They would do this only at egg-laying time—exactly when it would result in fertilization.' Interestingly, these copulations differed from the ones I saw of the ligitimate pairs. These extra-pair copulations occurred at any time, not just at dawn, and they occurred when the female was sitting and remained sitting on the nest, not off it. It seems as though the secondary males know what is going on, not only with regard to the precise reproductive status of a female and/or her nest other than theirs, as well as her mate's mate-guarding behavior." --Nethgirb 10:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Great find! I've added a mention. Thanks, Kla'quot 09:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

This is mostly off-topic, though I suppose it could be interesting to add to the article... Does anyone know of references that describe methods for attracting ravens? ...especially methods that would work if you only have a large apartment deck to work with, rather than a backyard? --Nethgirb 10:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

A dead lamb may do the trick jimfbleak 12:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately that may attract neighbors' complaints as well as ravens :-) --Nethgirb 21:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Depending on where you live attracting ravens is going to raise your neighbour's ire anyway! Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I spent some time surfing this afternoon, and found a bunch of on-line articles which may be of interest. I didn't want to add the information directly, however, since I'm not quite sure what the FA review committee thinks of on-line references. Perhaps we can get somebody to track down some of the original material!

There are five short articles on ravens in Alaska on the Univ. of Alaska Geophysical Institute website. These are:

• North Slope ravens force researcher to go incognito
• Are ravens responsible for wolf packs?
• Of moose, ravens and memories of sharp teeth
• The raven's game of hide and seek
• From dumpster to roost--the raven's winter commute

In addition, here are some other sites of potential interest...

• Gives a very brief description of an ongoing study at the North Slope's Prudhoe Bay.

• Ongoing study paper mentions killing of ravens in Barrow to benefit Seller's Eider, among other things Also indicates that birds on the North Slope are no longer migrating out of the area during the winter (which I'd also heard with regards to Barrow and Pru Bay CBCs...)

• Another article (Univ. of Alaska online) re: North Slope ravens

Hope this helps! MeegsC | Talk

Yep, I would definitely add the ref for ravens requiring to be culled in Alaska and use the cite web format. I'm knackered and need to get some sleep. If no-one has done it I'll do it tomorrow sometime. (yawn)........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 14:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's the answer I got back from Tring re: type specimens for Common Raven:

"Your e-mail has been forwarded to me to answer and I will answer it in relation to bird type specimens. The simple answer is no, there is no single source you can go to, though this may change in the relatively near future as I'll explain below.

When you refer to the "type" of the common raven, the situation is not as simple as it may seem for at least three reasons: 1) there are about 12 recognised subspecies of the raven, each of which in principle will have a holotype or syntypes; 2) in addition, there is an array of names for other raven taxa now synonymised with one of the recognized subspecies, each of which again will in principle have a holotype or syntypes; 3) a type specimen for a particular taxon (i.e. species or sub-species) may well now not exist for various reasons.

Assuming your request relates to the nominate subspecies of the Raven, i.e. Corvus corax corax, this is a Linnean name from 1758. As for most of his bird names, Linneus based on his description on an earlier author's/artist's work. The specimen(s) originally described/painted is the actual type, but these almost invariably now don't exist - where there is a painting made from the original specimen, this can stand in place of the type in such cases.

The numerous avian type specimens that do exist are mainly scattered through museums worldwide, with ourselves and the American Museum of Natural History, New York, having particularly large collections. Some of these museums, including ourselves, have lists of the bird type specimens they hold on their websites, but many only have printed lists or none at all. There is currently a project underway to try and link all web bird type information through a single portal, but this is some way from completion and public availability.

Sorry if this answer is longer and more convoluted than you wanted or, alternatively, if I'm bombarding you with information you're already well aware of, but it seemed worth giving a detailed explanation."

I'm not sure if that helps, or if it even further muddies the situation, but we can at least explain why there isn't a type specimen! MeegsC | Talk 11:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the following, as finding sources has been really hard and it's not essential to the Common Raven article. Some things are more trouble than they're worth :)

" it eventually disappeared in the mid 20th Century, probably due to selective collection for its unusual plumage."

Kla'quot 09:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Ravens and related birds are often associated with darkness and night in mythology, due to their color, but the article on crows claims they're actually active during the day and use their dark coloration to hide in shadows. Does this apply to ravens as well? (Or the rest of Corvidae, for that matter.) -- Milo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.2.42 (talk) 22:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

As I was informed after I posted my question below, questions like this are supposed to be posted to the Wikipedia:Reference_desk, but since this question has gone unanswered for so long, ravens are diurnal like crows. But the Reference Desk would probably have a more conclusive answer for you. --arkuat (talk) 23:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK all corvids are diurnal, even when migrating. Jimfbleak (talk) 05:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Can we get a bit more thorough explanation of the mating, nesting, and nestling habits of crows? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.153.38.108 (talk) 18:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea how to do the link, but there's a raven named Matthew in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series

69.181.115.136 (talk) 09:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)N

Thanks for the note. It is already mentioned on Cultural depictions of ravens - this page would get too unwieldy if we tried to fit absolutely everything in. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I really like this article. --NameThatWorks (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

thanks :) cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I live in Oakland, California, and most of the sure raven sightings (hearings, I should say) I've had have been out in the wild country places far from where I live. Yet I remain persuaded that I've heard (and seen too) ravens in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. Sometimes I get into situations where I'm watching them fly to see whether the tail is fan-shaped or diamond-shaped, but there's one clincher that some sources seem to vouch for, but the seemingly-more-reliable sources never mention: viz. ravens never flock.

Now I know that Corvus brachyrhynchos flocks often, and broods cooperatively. I don't really know that Corvus corax doesn't do the same; I've just read that ravens (corax) tend to be solitary (meaning alone or in pairs), but not from sources that make me feel as if they're giving me reliable information. Are C. corax solitary during the lead-up to nesting season? Are they solitary during the season that follows fledging?

So I'm asking all of you experts on how to distinguish ravens (C. corax) from crows (C. brachyrhynchos) to let me know, if I see a small flock of large black corvids socializing and showing off to one another with aerobatic tricks (barrel-rolls, for instance, not necessarily somersaulting in midair), does that settle the case conclusively that they are brachyrhynchos and not corax? -- arkuat (talk) 08:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the book Crows and Jays (one of the Helm Identification series) by Steve Madge and Hilary Burn, seeing a small flock doesn't rule out corax. To quote: "Usually met with in pairs or family parties, but non-breeders form quite large gatherings at favoured feeding sites and for communal roosting." (emphasis mine) And it says that (in early spring especially), small parties sometimes indulge in those acrobatic "tricks" you mention. It goes on to say that territorial birds are "remarkably tolerant" of other birds and that non-breeding flocks generally number in the 10s rather than the 100s. It finishes by saying that while the Common Raven is generally rather shy and wary of humans, in areas where it is unmolested, it can become "bold and fearless". I'm sorry this doesn't confirm any behavioural differences for you! MeegsC | Talk 10:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

All I can offer would be anecdotal, but I'll toss it out there anyway. I've seen a small group of ravens feeding on the same thing or in the same area, but I don't know if you'd call it a flock. It just seemed to me that they all happened to be in the same area for a little while. They didn't mind the presence of other ravens, but they weren't working cooperatively or anything the way other species will when they're part of a flock. I can't ever remember seeing a group of ravens flying together. Of course, you should probably take all this with a grain of salt, because here in the Appalachians ravens are uncommon, and the fact that they don't gather in flocks may have more to do with low population density than it does personality or inclination. I've also watched ravens on several trips to the Canadian Rockies where it seems like they're everywhere, and I never saw a flock of them, but as with so many other species, it might be something they only do at certain times of the year - and I've never been there in the winter. - Ken Thomas (talk) 11:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I've seen ravens in the Golden Gate Park. The sheer size of them, and their bills, rules out crows. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

And the deep call is very distinctive too Jimfbleak (talk) 05:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Map is wrong/out of date. Crows are quite popular on the territory of Poland, while on the map there's shown, that Poland is not within range of existance. There will be no problem as to prove my statement by photographs; for sure they do gather into large groups during winter croaking loudly...and nest, but not so intensively... Evidence: http://ptaki.polska.pl/baza_gatunkow/gallery,Kruk_%28Corvus_corax%29,gid,188049,cid,658.htm http://www.wegetarianie.pl/Article1616.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.124.2.99 (talk) 21:24, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Great article, btw. First of all, I saw in a TV documentary that the collective term of 'murder' doesn't just apply to crows, but also to ravens. I don't know whether that's true or not, but since the term doesn't appear in the article I thought it worth mentioning in case anyone had heard similar.

Secondly, it's interesting that this article mentions Ravens playing games. I recently visited the Tower of London. I watched as two ravens parked themselves at the bottom of the staircase that goes up the side of the central White Tower. One of them hopped up the stairs to the top, and then glided back down - I believe their wings are clipped so they can't properly fly. When it got back to the bottom, the other one did exactly the same thing. When it arrived back at the bottom, they both set off again and did the same thing at exactly the same time. It seemed to me that they were actually racing each other up and down the stairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 (talk) 12:59, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

A group of Ravens are called a "conspiracy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.182.42 (talk) 18:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The article has a sentence which implies that Arctic Common Ravens are migratory and leave their summer ranges in the winter. This is not true. Ravens in Arctic Alaska and Canada live in the Arctic year-round. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.67.23.19 (talk) 17:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

As a traditional plectrum for harpsichords seems to be well documented.- Michael Spencer (1981) Harpsichord Physics. The Galpin Society Journal, Vol. 34:2-20 - no suitable section though. Shyamal (talk) 08:58, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Missed this. Yeah. Maybe a single line or (hopefully) a bit more under Relationship with humans heading itself (??) Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

One quite often reads and sees (films, comic books) about ravens eating of dead soldiers on battlefields and executed (hung) persons. Maybe this article should include something about this in relation to their not overly good (read: sinister) reputation in European cultures? Also, a remark on the symbolic 'white raven' would seem good to me. Scarabaeoid (talk) 18:10, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Good points - I had not heard anything about a white raven (?) - I buffed alot of this article and wonder why I didn't add anything on the whole hanging round the dead - might have actually been harder to reference than I thought. Also there are two daughter articles for fuller discussion. Casliber (talk · The phrase 'white raven' in manylanguages (like Polish) means something very unique, a treasure.Used rather as concerning books of rarity and high valuecontribs) 20:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

We need to clean up this section a bit. Not sure how bible passages should be cited, but I'm pretty sure it's not how the article cites them currently. More importantly, mere mention of ravens is not sufficient for inclusion. If ravens play a central role in Christian mythology, or if they are anything more than merely mentioned, we need to talk about that. Otherwise, it's just a really bad "in popular culture" section. See the equivalent section in Sheep for illustration on how it should be done. Throwaway85 (talk) 22:36, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

The citations should also go to WikiSource Bible instead of a private 3rd party website. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe ravens are mentioned in the New Testament, if bible passages can be found mentioning ravens then it should be rewrote and kept. If not it should be removed. Beefcake6412 (talk) 18:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

And another thought, why is the reference to christianity in the popular culture section?? Shouldn't there be another section, such as religious significance? Because ravens probably play an important role in other religions.Beefcake6412 (talk) 18:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The section on predation contains numerous items that are not backed up by the source that is cited. I will (again) rewrite this section to only include the information in the source cited.Worm12ga (talk) 16:08, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The page already includes a lot of pictures showing actual ravens in the wild, so I'm not convinced it makes sense to include a picture of a wooded ravine (without visible ravens in the image) as an illustration of "typical raven habitat"--particularly when the text in that section emphasizes that they're found everywhere from the Arctic to the Himalayas and the deserts of the American southwest. I'd favor deleting that image. 206.208.105.129 (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The video of two ravens on a lamppost is silent for me. Anyone else having the same problem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ardkorjunglist (talk • contribs) 22:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Video works, but no sound. --Ritulia (talk) 05:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Works here. Hogroth (talk) 12:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

There are two sections in the Mythology section dealing with the ravens of London but they are separated by a paragraph on the Bible. This seems nonsensical.PortfolioMind (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Good point - paras flipped now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:50, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

In the "Distribution and habitat" section there is a sentence that reads "Except in Arctic habitats,[46] they are generally resident within their range for the whole year."(the LLCN link is dead). This would seem to indicate that Arctic ravens are migratory birds. However, they winter year round in the Arctic. According to An Annotated Checklist to the Birds of Greenland (scroll down to page 50) in the last section it says, "MOVEMENTS: Dispersive, resident or partially migratory (1 yrs). Even during winter Ravens are recorded in the high arctic." Other sources confirm this "Birds residing in the tundra throughout the year are very few and include species such as... raven", "Only the Common Raven, Snowy Owl and Rock Ptarmigan remain in the biome over winter, having the adaptations needed to do so", "The Common Raven breeds from the high Arctic islands (locally)... The Common Raven is mainly a permanent resident, wintering within the breeding range..." and "The North American breeding and wintering distribution of the Common Raven extends from Alaska and the high Arctic in the north...". CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

BTW, Do They Live In YadkinVille, NC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.188.239.66 (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, they do.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 17:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The IOC lists this bird as the Northern Raven, but consensus so far has decided to keep the common name for this bird as the Common Raven.....Pvmoutside (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

In its common names section, can it please be mentioned that in European Anglophone countries it is simply the raven. It is the first bird to be called by that name (there's no etymology section, either here or in the Raven page - all other ravens were named after it) and so for people in these countries there is no need to call it the 'Common Raven.' 86.137.125.90 (talk) 22:01, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Corvus corax (Common Raven), Yosemite NP, CA, US - Diliff.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 22, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-07-22. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:09, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

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The common raven (Corvus corax) is a large, all-black passerine bird and the most widely distributed of all corvids. Averaging 63 centimetres (25 inches) in length and 1.2 kilograms (2.6 pounds) in weight, these intelligent birds can live up to 21 years in the wild. They are commonly found in mythology, folklore, art, and literature.Photograph: David Iliff

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