Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 261

This is an archive of past discussions about Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page.

Just wonderin’ soibangla (talk) 03:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

what list?--SharabSalam (talk) 04:34, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

​If you're referring to the list of perennial sources, it's probably because CNN doesn't meet the list's inclusion criteria (described at WP:RSP § How to improve this list). If you do find at least 2 significant discussions in the noticeboard archives, please feel free to add CNN to the list yourself, or ask for help at WT:RSP. Thanks! — Newslinger talk 08:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I have a question about the source https://notevenpast.org/lend-lease/ in this article. Is it invalid source or not? It is located in the "blog" category of the site. I think it is totally an invalid source because blog is a self-published source Scotchbourbon (talk) 11:31, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• It's unclear whether Not Even Past is a self-published source. On one hand, the site is produced by the Department of History at the University of Texas at Austin and has a staff list. On the other hand, some of the site's content was written by middle school, high school, and graduate, and postgraduate students, although this content is clearly labeled. Not Even Past publishes content in a variety of formats, including group blog posts, podcasts, book/film reviews, and lecture videos. — Newslinger talk 09:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Is The Heythrop Journal a reliable source for the rather dubious claims made in Shroud of Turin#Minimal Facts approach? --Guy Macon (talk) 06:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

A specialist peer-reviewed journal is general considered a reliable source - so that journal is presumed to fall into the category of "reliable". If you wish to doubt the reliability of specific authors, try that route, but the journal itself is reliable for theological articles, which are ofttimes not "pure fact" - but otherwise we would have to rule that "no theological claims can be stated on Wikipedia" which seems wrong also. Collect (talk) 07:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm. If the claim that the citation is being used to support was a theological claim, the only thing I would check is whether the source say what we claim it says. The problem is that the source in this case is being used to support a claim about the age of an artifact, and in doing so directly contradicts the carbon-14 dating of the same artifact. Is a theological journal reliable for such a claim? --Guy Macon (talk) 10:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. Short answer, no. We probably wouldn't rely on Nature for theology, and scientists certainly don't rely on a theology journal for science. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:16, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

That is orthogonal to the point that an article in a theology journal is reliable on that topic, and we are not using the journal for the Theory of Relativity, but whether, to theologians, what the salient facts are. That a "scientist" knows that God does not exist, for example, is not an issue at all. Else we tread in uncertain waters. As long as it is clear what the nature of the claim is, and the source for that claim, we act in accord with policy. To dismiss it as "unreliable" because "we know it is wrong" is not in the area Wikipedia editors should work in. By the way, "carbon-14 dating" is not guaranteed as to "precision" yet. Nor is theology. Collect (talk) 12:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Radiocarbon dating is more than precise enough to establish a date in the range of 1260–1390 CE and to preclude a date in the range of 30-33 AD. See Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin If you refuse to accept the established science on this you should not be editing anything related to the shroud of Turin. I fail to see how a theology theology has anything to say about the dating of ancient artifacts. The two are completely unrelated. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:18, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

It is not for us to make sure the truth is only allowed And that is the problem here - when one "knows personally that the source is false" is not how Wikipedia operates. The issue is "verifiability, not truth," remember? Once we start saying "editors who know the TRUTH are better than any other sources, then we should rewrite all our sourcing policies. Right? Collect (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Again you are making things up. I don't claim that the Shroud of Turin has been reliably dated through radiocarbon dating to have been created some time between 1260–1390 CE and not between 30-33 AD because I "know personally" that some source is false. I claim it because every single reliable source without exception says it. The view that the Shroud dates to the time of Jesus is pure pseudoscience with a dash of conspiracy theory. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:00, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I did not "make things up" here, and I request you accord my position the respect that all editor's opinions are entitled to, rather than engage in personal attacks. That you assume essentially anything one can label as pseudoscience should be treated as fantasy of some sort is not found in any Wikipedia policy whatsoever. Indeed, your point could apply to every single article which has any theological connection - including Christian Science, Jesus, Allah and several hundred articles which are primarily on religious topics. Most people understand the religion is not science, nor is science a religion to most folks. As long as the article clearly states that a material from a source is metaphysical or religious, and it is clearly cited and used as such, that should be quite enough.

Reliable for religious views, not for scientific data. feminist (talk) 05:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

It was removed even when the theological nature of the claim was specifically included, so the issue now is that theology should or should not be allowed in any Wikipedia source. Collect (talk) 12:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Now you are just making stuff up. Here is the removal:[8] Noting that the claim was published in a theological journal does not change the fact that the claim "the probability of the Shroud of Turin being the real shroud of Jesus of Nazareth is very high" is a scientific claim, not a theological claim. Theological sources are just fine for claims regarding, say, the nature of God or the Filioque controversy, and indeed both of those articles have a boatload of theological sources. Good luck trying to use a theological source on our Cockcroft–Walton generator page, though. Theological sources are not reliable for supporting scientific claims. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The comparison between nature of God/Filioque controversy and Cockcroft–Walton generator is a strawman. Regarding that edit, I think it would be appropriate if placed in the Religious views section, but not as it were placed (i.e. in the Scientific analysis section). It is a theological claim and is suitable if presented as such, but not if it were presented as a scientific claim. feminist (talk) 03:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

On what planet is the age of an artifact a theological claim? --Guy Macon (talk) 03:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Um --- on what planet is a claim clearly stated to be metaphysical or theological in nature in the edit a "science" claim? Collect (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

You can't just make a scientific claim and support it with a citation to a theological source and think that this is OK just because you labeled the source as being theological. Theology makes all sorts of claims. We don't cite creationists regarding the age of the earth. We don't cite Mormon theology regarding the details of how precolombian native Americans lived. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I hope we cite creations regarding the age of the earth in the article on creationism. Who else would we cite for their views. The same goes for an article on Mormon views on North American history. We offer competing sources, but we do use them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

"To implement this, a ‘Minimal Facts’ approach is followed that takes into account only physicochemical and historical data receiving the widest consensus among contemporary scientists." The article isn't simply making a theological claim, it's using pseudoscientific cherry-picking to try and back a theological claim. 06:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.68.203.42 (talk • contribs)

Hi, is Gatestone Institute a reliable source? I have removed it from the article of Iranian involvement in the Syrian Civil War because it was used to cite huge numbers in the article which I couldn't find any secondary independent source that support these numbers. I am thinking of improving these articles that are related to Syrian conflict but I might need to remove this source from each article I am going to start edit in since it is really difficult to edit while there are false informations that are based on unreliable sources. Thanks.--SharabSalam (talk) 15:09, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

From our article: "The organization has attracted attention for publishing false articles and being a source of viral falsehoods." So, yeah, no, it's not. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:22, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

And yet it's linked 220 times on en.wikipedia, with maybe 130 of them to articles. [11] --Calton | Talk 15:32, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Gatestone Institute is not reliable. Where its cited it should either removed or replaced with RS references.Resnjari (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Following Calton's link, I noted that several of those refs relate to his page. I removed them as they appear to be a coatrack to provide publicity for the Gatestone Institute, but left one in because it refers to the fact he works for that organization. Is this proper? Nishidani (talk) 17:53, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Canb it be used to source details re its funder/founder Nina Rosenwald ?Nishidani (talk) 17:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think so. I noticed that there was an edit war in her article and I think the article has a whitewashing issue. I read her article in Wikipedia and compare it to an article published by the nation here and I found a lot of things aren't mentioned in the article of Wikipedia. For sourcing that she is the founder of the institute we might need an independent source. Thank you all for help.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:14, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• In addition to Calton's list there is also this [12] which is when the link is using Https and not Http.--SharabSalam (talk) 07:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Nishidani and NorthBySouthBaranof: thank you both for your help. I have been deleting this source from en.wikipedia but something got my attention and I think I should note you for this in case any revert started this "survey" is made up by that unreliable source one of the things that it says "My father received a text-message from the Israeli army warning him that our area was going to be bombed, and Hamas prevented us from leaving." I have also removed it from here I find the fact that this massive lie was in wikipedia funny and sad at the same time.--SharabSalam (talk) 01:50, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

That was an exceptional claim, dealing with one individual, ostensibly 'cited' by a source hostile to Hamas. We have numerous sources dealing with claims that Hamas acted to use hostages in this way, most contested. So your elision was correct.Nishidani (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

As I'm sure you're aware, some of the GI cites you deleted were perfectly valid. You can't just nilly-willy delete all GI cites just because they are Gatestone Institute cites. As a perfect example, you deleted the Elie Wiesel one. As I'm sure you're aware, an organization's site is allowed to be used as a source to say that someone is on the board of directors. You need to go back and either revert all your changes and go through them to make sure you are only reverting those that need to be reverted. In addition, I do hope those of you who are so eager to get rid of the GI cites, would rush to get rid of Maan News as well since we all know that Maan makes up news as well. I won't hold my breath, though. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 00:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• A shitty source is a shitty source. That you like what they say doesn't make them non-shitty. --Calton | Talk 01:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• That's lovely, but doesn't negate anything I said. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I think what Calton tried to say is that the source is not reliable at 99% of cases that this source is in contexts that are related to Muslims or Israeli-Palestianian articles the other cases is on its contributors take a look at these articles which says that the Gatestone is not reliable at all and that it spread fake news most of the time [13][14][15][16] regardless of this discussion this source should not be used again regardless of this discussion the only reason for this discussion is that I want to put it in the list of perennial sources that's it. it should be treated like daily mail where it is not used even in its own article. Thanks.--SharabSalam (talk) 07:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: Every piece or word in Gatestone Institute is unreliable and should not be trusted even if its about its own people also you said an organization's site is allowed to be used as a source to say that someone is on the board of directors; where dose it say that in wikipedia?(I hope you arent making things up) and if thats a legit wikipedian policy then I am self-reverting in the areas where I have deleted them and I am fine with that. "The organization has attracted attention for publishing false articles and being a source of viral falsehoods" also its a far-right-wing and anti-Muslim Institute. I think it is worse than infowars! this is an enough reason to delete it from wikipedia. Idk about maan news. Thanks--SharabSalam (talk) 01:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I want to note that Gatestone Institute has used different names like Hudson Institute New York" (not to be confused with the Hudson Institute) and it used this domain http://www.hudson-ny.org (if you actually click on it you will be transferred to Gatestone Institute also it has used the name Stonegate Institute for a short time and it used this domain http://www.StonegateInstitute.org (which also gonna transfer you to gatestone institute)--SharabSalam (talk) 02:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

In general, an organization can be relied upon to self source for their own information. The GI can say who the GI Board of Directors are. If you go to many Wikipedia company sites, you will find such citations. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

So this is a deductive reason not a real policy in Wikipedia?--SharabSalam (talk) 07:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know much about GI, but I know that one of the common tricks used by predatory journals is to list editors who have never agreed to such a role. I mention this to show that is a bad idea to have a rule that unreliable organizations are reliable for their personnel lists. Zero^talk 08:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Is The Singles Jukebox a reliable source for musical reviews? The website looks pretty cheap from its interface and layout, and I’m seeing no real proof of credibility.—NØ 18:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

There is a AfD discussion at Rania Khalek that hinges on whether sources such as "Shadowproof", "Counterpunch" and "Stepfeed" constitute RS and whether coverage by these sources indicate notability.[17] Additional input would be helpful. A previous AfD ended without much participation, and it seems this one could end in the same way. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Other simple sources are Salon (website) which has published 9 articles by the person, The Nation which has published three articles, which are both "reliable sources" even if every appearance for RT (TV network) and other articles for "non-reliable sources" is expunged. She has "interesting" views, but that does not make a person "non-notable" AFAICT. Collect (talk) 19:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

A page I am currently working on, Dave Bautista, relies a lot of content on the subject's autobiography (Batista Unleashed). Is it considered a primary source and should I look for alternatives? THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You have a add a dash of WP:SELFPUB with a pinch of WP:COMMONSENSE. It's not technically "self-published" in the sense that Twitter is, but you should still be cautious to use it for overly self-serving claims not otherwise covered in third-party sources. You should also be mindful that, as an autobiography, it's probably not going to include anything unflattering, and may go into a level of detail that may not be appropriate for an encyclopedia article. So you have to weigh than when using the source to gauge WP:DUEWEIGHT. Having said that, an autobiography can still be very useful, especially for comparatively run-of-the-mill information that might not be included in other sources, but may still be relevant to a thorough coverage of the subject. GMG^talk 18:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You can use it to support facts or augment something that's already mentioned by something that would establish notability but autobiography is useless as a reference for establishing any notabilityGraywalls (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

It is a reliable source because it is published by Simon & Schuster which is a respected publisher. They do not publish books when they expect them to contain false information. And while autobiographers generally have a bias toward themselves, biographers may also have bias toward or against their subjects. Bias is however separate from reliablity and is addressed in weight. As the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no one is entitled to their own facts

What is unreliable however are interviews. For example, a biography may say something like, "Mr X. said that when he arrived in this country 50 years ago, he had a dollar in his pocket."

TFD (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Umm, an auto-bio is not independent of the subject and may be WP:BIASED and self serving (regardless of the publisher, and this is expected in an autobio). Best not to use for anything controversial (unless attributed - e.g. a response or observation by tue subject). Can be very useful for fill basic bio details (childhood, studies, etc.).Icewhiz (talk) 18:45, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I found this page[18] being used at Katya Adler. See the disclaimer at the bottom, "We make no warranty whatsoever as to the accuracy or completeness of the FreeBMD data." We use it a lot,[19] including in some instances a link to empty search page.[20]

Having said that, it's had an award from the Society of Genealogists and the Guardian lists it as one of the best "family history" websites.[21] Sounds good until you look at the 50 and see a lot that clearly wouldn't pass WP:RS. Doug Weller talk 09:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Freebmd provides a copy of the original page provided by the general register office which is the primary source. It may be actually better to quote the original source rather than a site that has just added it to a database. For older records the GRO actually has its own website for looking up births and deaths. Note like all primary sources they should be used with care as it easy to make assumptions that the record relates to the right individual which may need addtional evidence. MilborneOne (talk) 12:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Not a reliable source as used.

1. It assumes that this is the correct entry for the person in question. Since it is just an index of a registration, it does not contain the parents' names, the birth date, or the exact place of birth, and thus we cannot tell if this is the right entry.
2. Even if this were the right entry, we cannot be sure of when the birth happened. The registration index covers three months, but births are sometimes registered long after the event. Meters (talk) 20:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

In this edit John B123 (talk · contribs) has now twice restored historical information on Prostitution in Overseas France#Martinique based on this source. That is the abstract of a presentation before a conference of the American Historical Association. John's opinion is that this source has been "published by the American Historical Association". It is my understanding that since conference abstracts are essentially automatically published simply by paying to attend and sending one in, these are SPS at best, and certainly not by the society hosting it, but the author. Furtheremore, in this specific case the underlying work has yet to be published or peer reviewed. Someguy1221 (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

On a procedural point, Someguy1221 has ignored the guidelines at WP:BRD and simply sought to impose his POV instead of discussing on the talk page. The reason behind this user's desire to have the content removed is unclear. The first reason given in the edit summary was "I deleted the paragraph on prostitution in Martinique between the 1850s and 1950s because it was based on my own unpublished work, which I do not want to be copied on Wikipedia--or at least not until it is officially published", the second that it's not a RS.

As far as I'm aware, the American Historical Association is accepted as a reliable source. To suggest, as in this case, that parts of it are not, requires more substantiation the just "my understanding is ...". --John B123 (talk) 19:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, it's a reliable source, but I could be mistaken. I'd like to hear the opinions of other editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

It depends. To begin with most conference papers (SIGRAPH being an exception) are lower quality than journal papers. However, in this case it is unclear to me whether this a published paper in the proceedings or an unpublished presentation. If it is just a presentation - then the abstract is probably not peer reviewed (not that all conferences peer review papers, but the good ones do). In which case - it probably had minor vetting from the organizers (a no-nonesense check) - and would primarily be the speaker writing it. It would still be a notch up from a SPS - and the speaker presumbly has some expertise if they are giving a presentation. RS is not black and white - in this case it looks like a low quality academic source (which is still better than many media sources). I would prefer a journal or conference paper - but if this is what you have and it is not contradicted by something else I would not throw it out.Icewhiz (talk) 19:42, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Icewhiz's take.

To expand a bit: AHA invites proposals for sessions at its annual meetings and these proposals (which include the abstracts of the papers to be presented in that session) are then reviewed to decide whether the session is accepted or not. I don't know if the review is more granular than that, as would be the case for typical journal submissions. So in this case the abstract has presumably been given a read by the person(s) proposing the session, and (more cursorily) by some members of the program committee. This, along with the fact that the author is a history PhD specializing in this area, would make the abstract better than a typical SPS and IMO an acceptable source for non-exceptional claims. Abecedare (talk) 20:00, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz and Abecedare make excellent points. I'm assuming it doesn't contradict other reliable sources and doesn't make extraordinary claims. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• On second thought: I would give some weight to the edit-summary by (presumably) the author editing from a UChicago IP I deleted the paragraph on prostitution in Martinique between the 1850s and 1950s because it was based on my own unpublished work, which I do not want to be copied on Wikipedia--or at least not until it is officially published. Given that objection (especially the fact that she regards it as "unpublished", which I interpret as work-in-progress output), along with the borderline nature of the source, I would recommend keeping the material out for now. This may not be exactly dictated by policy, but as a tertiary source we can afford to be patient. Abecedare (talk) 20:14, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  Hmm, yes - missed that. If we AGF this is the author, and we are relying on the author's expertise then their request to retract is quite relevant and may indicate that the author does stand behind the prior abstract (e.g. due it being a work in progress).Icewhiz (talk) 20:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I am looking for some more inputs and policy clarification about a V and LEAD question.

Recently Presidency of Donald Trump copied a line from the lead of Donald Trump. (A proposer opened discussion a day before at the Presidency TALK here, and editor made an edit the next day here.))

That however means the lead at Presidency is based on content and cites in some another article. It is not based on cites in the Presidency article and about the article’s topic and body.

For V in Lead situations, please provide more inputs and policy clarification below about ‘the cites and content summarized are elsewhere’ question/situation. Thank you. Markbassett (talk) 05:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• Possibly put a cite in the Presidency article to the Donald Trump section would be the simplest way to show where the line came from ? Markbassett (talk) 05:23, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ledes are a summary of the article not a place to be adding new, sourced content. If it's not source in the article, remove it. If it is sourced, then include it. In this case, if it's not sourced, add an entire section to the article to support the clearly verifiable claim. If there's another article on all of Trump's lies, a {{main}} and summary in the main article are all that are needed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:25, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Walter Görlitz the Presidency article has a section talking about the fact checker counting ... not an overview and obviously not about the campaign. Would the Presidency body having a note 'Main article' pointing to Veracity of statements by Donald Trump suffice ? Markbassett (talk) 05:48, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a shame. Update the article to reflect the sources and then make sure it's in the lede. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Walter Görlitz: - the article does reflect the sources. You can check the subsection on Presidency of Donald Trump#False and misleading statements. starship.paint ~ KO 08:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

• So the article reflects the sources and the sources support the statement. Why is it a problem to include in the lede? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:49, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

• I don't see a problem, perhaps Markbassett can reply. starship.paint ~ KO 02:16, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• User:Walter Görlitz No, not based on content of the Presidency article. Proposed here was to copy from BLP based on RFC at the BLP here as shown below.

I propose to add the following sentences to the lede. This mirrors the Donald Trump article, and is virtually identical to the version which achieved consensus in a recent RfC with the exception of the first wiki-link to Veracity of statements by Donald Trump. starship.paint ~ KO 03:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.

• It does not summarize the Presidency article body content, relative amount of content, or cites in Presidency of Donald Trump#False and misleading statements. But again, the question here is for inputs and policy clarification on the V and LEAD in this copied-line situation. The CWW mention from Marchjuly so far seems best fit to the events and situation. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:29, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• Markbassett - please don't write my signature when copying my quote. It's really weird to me, because I didn't write that here. Now, just because the lede sentence was copied from elsewhere doesn't mean that the body doesn't reflect it. The body, already had the relevant subsection on False and misleading statements, and it has been continually updated along with the information in the lede, and the lede does adequately reflect the most pertinent point of the subsection. starship.paint ~ KO 02:05, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• User:Starship.paint The history trail is clear this was put forward as a copy, and TALK at Presidency was pretty clear not a focus to summarize content in the Presidency article. The question here is for inputs and policy clarification in the copied-lines situation. If you’re suggesting an alternative of rewrite the body to fit the lead instead of LEAD guidance to summarize from the body, I like that less than simply capturing that it is a copy per CWW. I doubt LEAD clarification would like an alternative of ‘or go the other way and expand from the lead into the body’ better than CWW or view it as truly complying with the intent of LEAD, but will see if any chime in that feels like better general policy or something. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Markbassett Even if it was put forward as a copy, it does not mean it does not summarize content in the Presidency article. These things are not mutually exclusive. You can read the state of the article one month before I ever proposed that text in the lede, the relevant content to be summarized is all already there. starship.paint ~ KO 03:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Starship.paint there is no “if” about it’s being ‘copy’, put forward that way and wording is simple fact. And no, for the purpose of guidelines I believe the two *are* exclusive because the handling is. Either the basis in effect is it’s a copy with fixed wording and hence this thread and maybe CWW marking, or else it shows it is not by discussions on wording not based on copy and actual changes in text. Being handled by a stance of copy excludes individual edits, and being handled by a stance of individual requires actual TALK and edits - it is what it does. If you now think the basis should not be copy, then like any change to these article’s lead that would require you to start a new TALK thread proposing that change, and see if folks concur. Meanwhile it was put in as a copy, accepted basis is copy, and the question here is inputs and policy clarification for the case of a copy. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:22, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) One Wikipedia article cannot be cited as a source for another Wikipedia article per WP:WPNOTRS; so, I don't think a citation would help here. What it sounds like to me is something having to to do with WP:CWW. Article content from one article can be used in another article (within limit) as long as it's been properly attributed per WP:PATT. If the original content in the "Donald Trump" article was written by someone who then added it to the "Presidency of Donald Trump" article (i.e. the same person did both), then the edit itself is probably sufficient for attribution purposes; however, if there are two different people involved, then the original creator needs to be attributed. This can either be done by edit summary or by a template on the second article's talk page. Now, whether attribution is really required depends on the nature of the content and how much original thought went into writing it. A simple statement like "Donald Trump is president of the United States" probably is so simple and generic that it probably doesn't require attribution since there are really only so many ways to make the same statement. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:36, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Marchjuly CWW looks promising to record the copy source. (WP:CHALLENGE not so much, but history is good...) The original source was created at Donald Trump lead by a RFC, not summary of that article content there or cites. So would the marking for this case be a hidden comment in Presidency of Donald Trump mentioning the line is copied and then the copied template at the Donald Trump article TALK page ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:10, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• As a matter of practice, I copy text from article A to article B verbatim with edit summary copied from article (whatever), and I use version history to get the actual version number of the source article. Then, in one or more later edits, I make whatever changes make sense to integrate the copied text into the new article. Third, I read the entire changed text to make sure that Article B, standing on its own and in my opinion, is neutral and passes verification with good citations to RSs. Please do not use the copied template, because edit summaries are perfectly adequate, so why clutter up the page? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:27, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• When there is a well-sourced article about a related topic, that topic should be summarized in the main subject's article with a {{main}} pointing to article. Sources should be included. That section should then be summarized further in the lede. The lede itself does not need sources. The section in the article should have sources. The separate article should be well-sourced. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• User:NewsAndEventsGuy. I’m thinking CWW would be template at TALK, and a hidden comment at the insertion (start and end of copied), yes? In this case, sources were WP — it’s copying text from BLP lead based on RFC there into Presidency lead based on TALK of copying, with mod of wiki linking to a third article expanding upon the topic. There’s been some later supportiveish additions at the Presidency article of 9 cites added at lead and a paragraph inserted at start of a body subsection. Any input or suggestions ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:20, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

If the approach depends on the longevity of a hidden comment buried in article text, that's a guarantee that sooner or later attribution will be broken. With the passage of time, hidden comments are often cast adrift from the contextual placement in the article if indeed they were not sucked up by the periodical zamboni crew. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:26, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

She appears to be on the fringe of Christian scholars. This article in an LDS Journal also suggests she's not a reliable source.[22] Doug Weller talk 10:00, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Adding Watcher (angel). Doug Weller talk 10:20, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

From what I can see she is "fringe" only to the degree of dating Enoch atypically early. Having read the LDS article, it's merely an occasion for expounding some of these views without any significant participation in LDS theology. Looking at GScholar I see she has one paper with 126 cites, another, 129. I'm having trouble dealing with the talk page because of the typical wall-of-text found around those articles, but I would prefer to find some commentary on her views before simply dismissing her. Mangoe (talk) 23:10, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Her work seems non-conformist rather than fringe. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC).

@Mangoe and Xanthippe: thanks. I'd also like some reliable comments on her. She's also used here[23] in a different context. The editor also insists on using Hugh Nibley despite my telling them he's not an RS for anything but LDS views, am I wrong on that? Doug Weller talk 15:11, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

There is a short summary of her thesis and what I would characterize as an "orthodox" criticism of it here (see the section "1 Enoch and the Canon of Scripture"). I would tend to limit her to discussion of the texts themselves and be clear that her views are not widely shared. She seems to fall into the OT version of the Jesus Seminar "Thomas tells us about early Christianity" crowd, but I don't know that there's as strong a position there. She's obviously not someone to be cited outside this fairly narrow field.

Nibley obviously should only be invoked as an authority on LDS views, and nothing else.

There's something of a running theme in this in that uncontroversial statements and positions should be cited to generally accepted authorities, rather than to subsidiary writers whose views happen to agreee with the mainstream. Mangoe (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Is Student Crowd a reliable source? See diff at University of Winchester. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 18:59, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I have a mixed opinion here. First, I think it's less a matter of "reliable" than "significant". Obviously the student reviews are not reliable sources, so the question is whether the rankings are significant. Student Crowd's website helpfully provides no information on how anything is reviewed or edited, or what qualifications any of their writers or other employees have. There are no obvious measures to filter out fake reviews. It's not promising. But then, looking through Google News searches and more directed sources, they are not infrequently cited by ordinarily reliable media. Specifically their rankings get cited. So on one hand, I'd be inclined to say that, "well if they are widely cited, they have a reputation for something something", and their opinion is significant. On the other hand, I suspect writers for Times Higher Education and some other sources just saw a popular website with a ranked list and cited it, and don't really have an informed opinion on it. But then on the third hand, maybe that doesn't matter. Someguy1221 (talk) 19:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

In this case, I investigated the edit history of that editor and it has revealed that he's been exclusively making edits that was for the purpose of inserting the same domain or other junk links. I've reverted all of them. Graywalls (talk) 12:03, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

The only reliable information it conveys is something along the line of "the institution has a ranking of x on the website x" but when the discretion to introduce a statement sourced by this kind of website in the hands of editors, there's a general increase in susceptibility of article tampering by public relations professional or by those involved with the source or the subject to amplify a certain position. They have a tendency to aggregate and publish information that presents the subject in a favorable light or sometimes the source is added for the sake of promoting the review source. Graywalls (talk) 11:16, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

• Reviews from Student Crowd are user-generated content, and should not be used. The Student Crowd compilation article from the diff can be used for attributed self-descriptions of Student Crowd's own reviews under WP:ABOUTSELF (like a primary source), but only if Student Crowd's reviews are considered due weight in the article. Since Student Crowd's reviews and ratings are not notable accreditations, any reference to Student Crowd would be considered undue weight in almost all circumstances, unless the rating is covered by an independent reliable source. The neutral point of view noticeboard is the best place to ask questions regarding (un)due weight. — Newslinger talk 06:25, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I have seen some tropical cyclone articles using Weather Underground like Cyclone Idai [24]. I don't know if it is reliable or not but IMO it is not reliable because it appears to be a blog. --219.78.191.180 (talk) 10:00, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Well any site that puts news and blogs under the same heading rings alarm bells with me. Also there are SPS issues here.Slatersteven (talk) 10:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

It's entirely member-generated data and there is no guarantee that those writing articles are experts. In this case Masters is a co-founder of the site. It's not clear what his doctorate is in, but we can assume it's meteological. The site's organizational structure is not a question. If additional, more clear sources can be found, use them, otherwise, I don't have a problem with using this as a RS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:01, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I actually wanted to know about the reliability of this publication IWMBuzz. Link is :
IWMBuzz
It was previously known as Indian Wiki Media and I have seen it been used as a reference under that name quite a few times. I would just like to know if it qualifies as a reliable source as there have been doubts raised about its reliability . In the already sparse field of News and Articles on Indian Telly Vision , it would be of great help if it can be classified as reliable - if it is indeed deemed one - as it is a treasure trove of information that we would otherwise have to spend hours scouring the internet for . Awaiting your opinions and replies ,

Thank you --Peter025 (talk) 20:46, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

IWMBuzz is an advertising agency. (Its web site uses the expression "advertising agency" to describe itself.) It refers to the people it writes about as "clients", and says numerous things such as "We are committed to make your business grow"; there are many more examples. it is absolutely not an independent reliable source of information for anything, and there is no ambiguity about that at all. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

So even articles which are unbiased but are from this source would still not be accepted , am I correct JamesBWatson ?

I also read somewhere on Wikipedia itself that if articles from reliable sources are short then a person could combine such references and create something like a unified reference which in turn may help attain notability , is this true? Would such a "unified " reference - consisting of a combination of shorter references from reliable sources - be considered as something derived from reliable sources? --Peter025 (talk) 21:27, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

• It depends IMHO, it depends on the context. How is it being used? If we're talking about its founding date or where it's headquartered, I don't see a problem. If we are saying "Actor Xyz is the best actor in India", that's different. Buffs (talk) 21:45, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

  Thank you for the response Buffs, I am assume your response is to my question about unbiased articles from IWMBuzz. Can you/anyone please answer my second question about the unified reference ? and if your response was for the question pertaining to the unified reference then I clearly haven't been able to get what you meant, so could you go over that again? Thank you. --Peter025 (talk) 04:48, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

  In general, no. That would fall under WP:SYNTHESIS. Can you provide an example sentence? Perhaps we can walk you through how to properly reference the information. Buffs (talk) 15:41, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I would say no, it cannot be used to establish notability of its "clients". To be used to establish notability any source must be independent of the subject.Slatersteven (talk) 12:40, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

IWMBUZZ is not an independent source in regards to their clients or anyone connected to them. An advertising agency is unlikely to be reliable in regards to other people. Therefore I doubt IWMBUZZ would ever have any value for establishing Notability of anyone or anything. In regards to their clients, they may be reasonably reliable for basic non-promotional info such as date of birth. So it might be citable for some basic bio info. However any arguably favorable information would be presumably promotional and therefore not reliable. They have a financial interest in saying positive things.

Regarding Notability: That requires multiple sources, each of which is considered Reliable, each of which is independent of the article subject, and each of which provides substantial coverage of the subject. It is hard to define exactly how long something has to be to qualify as "substantial coverage" - two paragraphs of decent length and containing substantial useful content is on the low end, but is often acceptable. In some cases we might accept multiple shorter pieces as collectively adding up to one piece of substantial coverage. Note that we don't actually unify them as a single reference - it just means that we might count Reliable refs with too-short coverage as a fraction of one item when looking for "multiple" sources to establish notability. Alsee (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello, I am having to deal with an IP editor at Eros and Civilization who has used sources that I consider unacceptable per WP:RS. Its use of these sources can be seen in this edit.

They are both online sources. The first source can be seen here. It is titled "Eros And Civilization Analysis" and at the top we see the words, "Disclaimer: This work has been submitted by a student." I think that this is an indisputable example of an unacceptable source for Wikipedia, but I would like to see other editor's views on that.

The second source can be seen here. It is titled "The Psychoanalysis of Philosophy: Towards the Eroticization of Logos" and it appears to be a blog posting. It comes with text noting, "The following is an essay written for a course called “post-secular Jewish emancipatory thought,”". In other words, it is essentially lecture notes, written by an academic, but it would appear not published in a peer-reviewed journal, or anywhere else, for that matter. It might seem slightly better than an essay written by a student, but I think it is also clearly unacceptable. Again, I would like other editor's views. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:30, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Clearly not RS. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:31, 24 March 2019 (UTC).

Since the IP editor is adding these unreliable sources to multiple articles - Herbert Marcuse (visible here) and Eros and Civilization (visible here) - I wonder whether technical methods could be used to prevent this? The problems involved in the IP's insistence on using non-reliable sources are multiplied when they involve more than a single article, and there is no good reason why we would let editors use a website that puts student essays online as a source. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Apply for semi-protection. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC).

Not RS, and being spammed (i effect) to promote (I suspect) the work.Slatersteven (talk) 09:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Semiprotection has been applied. There's probably no need to discuss it any further here. But for the record, the two sources mentioned above are not reliable. The IP was also citing a third source which does appear reliable, but that source does not support(failed WP:V) what the IP was trying to say(WP:OR). Alsee (talk) 09:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Touregypt.net says "We are an American tourism company based in Lubbock, Texas" and they seem to have quite a few pages across their website about Egyptian history and culture. Since they don't appear to me to be a particularly authoritative source, I'm surprised to find that this website is used on > 500 pages, in some cases just in the external links section, but mostly as a reference. Either many editors find this website to be a suitable source, or its heavy use is the result of persistent reference spamming. Is touregypt.net a reliable source for historical information about Egypt and should it be this widely used throughout Wikipedia? Deli nk (talk) 13:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Spam. Tourism-related spamming is a huge problem. --Ronz (talk) 22:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable. These articles are self-published sources used as content marketing for a tourism company. — Newslinger talk 10:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
• Agreed. Promotional/spam/unreliable. Deli nk, or anyone interested, I'd suggest insta-deleting touregypt from any external links, as well as removing the refs. As appropriate the refs can just be deleted where it's unneeded, or a replacement ref be put in it's place, or replace it with Citation Needed, or potentially delete whatever questionable info the ref was attached to. If you're willing to do some digging, you could try to hunt down some of the edits which added Touregypt. If one or more accounts added a bunch of them, you could post a spam warning to their talk or even pursue a block against the account(s). It's possible that identifying the account(s) would turn up additional spam to eliminate. Alsee (talk) 06:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I have started removing links (leaving {{citation needed}} in its place where needed), but it's going to take some time and effort. No obvious spam accounts yet. Deli nk (talk) 11:07, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I've removed it in the past a number of times. I doubt there's much spamming, simply editors without a clue about RS. It'll continue to be used without an edit filter Doug Weller talk 14:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

There is a section of an RfC on the List of Photographers talk page regarding the reliability of the New York Public Library's Photographers' Identity Catalog as a reliable source for nationality, birth dates, and death dates.

The point of contention is that the PIC lists Wikipedia itself as a source of information. Though Wikipedia is one of more than twenty sources that the PIC uses, its inclusion raises concerns that using the PIC on Wikipedia is "circular".

You are welcome to join the discussion at the RfC on the List of Photographers talk page. Thank you. Qono (talk) 03:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

VOA is not on the list of perennial sources (and I don't see much discussion on its reliability in the archives (aside from that it can be quoted with attribution link)). Can we get a consensus and add it to the list of perennial sources? Yaakovaryeh (talk) 05:19, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Then it does not need adding, if no one challenges it we do not need to have a go to page explaining why it is (or is not) an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 09:20, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

The stated inclusion criteria for Perennial sources is "repeatedly discussed sources", however you say you "don't see much discussion on it". That's an oops :) Alsee (talk) 09:23, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• I've removed "RfC:" from the heading of this section to prevent confusion, as this is not an actual RfC. — Newslinger talk 07:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

It is the only source in List of Justices of the Wyoming Supreme Court, but it's dead anyways. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 15:47, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) You mean Wikispaces, a wiki hosting service? user-generated content is not a reliable source. Matthew hk (talk) 15:58, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

If its a wiki, as was said above, no. Its user generated content.Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks Matthew hk and Slatersteven. I have since removed the source and tagged the page. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• The content previously at https://wyomingstatearchives.wikispaces.com/ was produced by the Wyoming State Archives, an agency of the State of Wyoming, which merely used the website as a convenient repository for official biographies; it was not "user-generated". Unfortunately, the Wikispaces cite shut down and the information does not appear to have been backed up anywhere else. This is an unusual circumstance of Wikipedia having created a record of what was in a public document (albeit hosted in an unusual place), that no longer exists. bd2412 T 18:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Since the Wikispaces site is dead, I have changed all the citations to directly reference the print documents available at the Wyoming State Archives. Cheers! bd2412 T 18:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

That is the best idea anyway.Slatersteven (talk) 08:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Say we have a newspaper - let's call it the Fubar Times. The Fubar, like any other newspaper, employs dozens of reporters on several desks. There's a strong consensus among RS that the Fubar is a very, very bad newspaper. Some of the sources except a handful of reporters from the foreign affairs desk (not the desk itself, just the reporters), but all agree that the newspaper as a whole is biased and unreliable. My questions to you is: how exactly do we treat the Fubar? Do we WP:GUNREL the whole thing, as most sources suggest? Do we except specific reporters or a specific desk? If most sources aren't concerned with specific desks, can an editor (here) insist that we find sources that are? Or are do we accept the consensus that exists on the newspaper as a whole? François Robere (talk) 23:22, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

We really can't trust individual editors to judge whether a source is reliable, and having the community try to arrive at a consensus for each individual writer is unworkable. This isn't just a problem with The Daily Mail The Fubar Times. In may very well be that one writer at The Daily Stormer or The Onion is reliable, but we can't have individual editors deciding that itb is OK to use those as sources. If The Daily Mail The Fubar Times is unreliable, any reliable reporter working for them is just going to have to put up with being considered unreliable as well. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Apropos? How Fox News uses “news side” anchors like Shepard Smith to save its brand. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 23:58, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. I would like to exploit this article for two points.

• It says "Fox simply has separate “news” and “opinion” divisions like other outlets." - I am wondering (lazy reader, me) whether our WP:RS rules draw the distinction between "news" and "opinion" pieces clearly enough. - Altenmann >talk 02:31, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
• It addresses the concern voiced above (consensus for each individual writer is unworkable) - of course, not for each individual one, but there are quite a few newswriters who are recognized in the world as trustworthy, i.e., we do noot need community consensus on their trustworthiness, only the consensus on whether their tr--ness is commonly recognized, i.e., in the very spirit of Wikipedia regarding "truth". - Altenmann >talk 02:31, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Per the first point, the words preceding are very important:

"Fox’s ... public relations strategy relies on being able to point to people like Smith as evidence that the network isn’t purely a right-wing megaphone. Instead, the network brass argues, Fox simply has separate “news” and “opinion” divisions like other outlets." (My emphasis.)

The point being that "the brass" are being deceptive. They have one or two people like Shep Smith as their token journalists they point at, to fool people into thinking that the other 98% of their business is legitimate. Well, that's not the case. They are just including that "person (or very few people) of a group so an organization can publicly claim to be" an objective and real news source, so you can safely believe everything else they say and do. It's amazing how many are fooled by this example of tokenism. Just because 2% is good does not somehow make the other 98% good. It's still a propaganda channel, which is the point of the article. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

And the crusade against Fox News continues... Can you source your 2% statistic? Also, I should remind you that Media Matters' blog is not even close to being a reliable source.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:05, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Crusades are motivated by religion; sourcing is based on evidence. Per WP:ONUS the question isn't whether he can source that 98%, but whether you can show that scathing reviews don't apply to some portion of the journalists. François Robere (talk) 08:40, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

@BullRangifer: No need to derail the discussion. I just want to know what policy says in such cases. François Robere (talk) 08:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we can answer a hypothetical like this. Even source is different and needs to be evaluated individually. With few exceptions, I'd be very cautious to label any source, as either 100% reliable or 100% unreliable. If you have a particular source in mind, please let us know.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

That's an easy out. Don't we have policy on this? Policy is written in anticipation of hypotheticals, and just as well - otherwise you'd have no ability to apply it whatsoever. I want to know what the policy is without coming to RSN every single time, so do tell. François Robere (talk) 08:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

"Doctor, she's having a heart attack! What do we do?" - "No, no, wait. We have to discuss this. There's no procedure for 56 y/o Afro-American women of average build." - "But, doctor!" - "No-no, please. This is personalized medicine. We don't generalize."... BEEEEEP... François Robere (talk) 09:00, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Not a good hypothetical, however hypothetically speaking a desk inside of a source may be extra reliable or extra unreliable in relation to the rest of the source. If a sub-part of an organization has a reputation for fact checking, and we can reliability identify that sub-section from the rest of the organization - then sure - we could treat that sub-part differently. Icewhiz (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

We do take authors into account concerning reliability, even to the point of using blogs. As long as the authorship is not in question, we should be taking the author into account for anything better than blogs. --Ronz (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz and Ronz: But the sources would have to be explicit on who or what is the exception, right? I can't just say "well, the entire desk looks fine" if they only name some reporters? François Robere (talk) 20:27, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I would use the recommendations for opinion pieces and self-published work. If the writer is an expert in their field, we can use it. But note that being a journalist alone does not make one an expert. You would need to show that they had published academic papers in the field they were writing about. However, since weight usually prevents us from using facts ignored in mainstream publications, this is probably moot. Otherwise, journalists' articles are considered reliable because of the editorial oversight and reputation of fact-checking by the source, which is not the case here.

In my experience, the main reason someone would choose to use publications such as Fubar is that they present facts and opinions not found anywhere else. Reliability is only one of the bars that content must meet before inclusion.

TFD (talk) 20:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

In theory we could distinguish by author/editorial-section/topic. In practice - it depends how easy it is for us to distinguish, as well as sources available to us on the grounds for distinction. It also depends on "how bad is bad" - e.g. you won't get much traction on the Daily Mail (even if a carve out is justified) as Wiki editors thing it is "very bad". If a source is "mildly bad", exceptions are easier.Icewhiz (talk) 04:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

The vast majority of articles on Forbes.com are unreliable, as they are written by contributors, not staff writers. The vast majority of reviews on Sputnikmusic are unreliable, as they are written by users, not staff writers. The vast majority of content on Genius is user-generated content that we consider unreliable, yet we consider certain parts of the website (verified content, staff-written content, etc.) to be usable as sources. We continue to treat these sources as reliable, as we can identify reliable staff-written articles among the crap. So, to answer your question: no, we do not consider the whole source to be generally unreliable, even if sources suggest that the source as a whole is unreliable. We don't disqualify reliable content just because other content from the same publication is generally unreliable. feminist (talk) 14:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

But how do you tell which is which? Also: What's the policy basis or rationale of ignoring RS in this matter, as opposed to everything else? François Robere (talk) 20:47, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Reliable publishers will clearly distinguish articles written by staff writers, from opinions written by staff, from articles written by contributors. --Ronz (talk) 16:46, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, that’s the ideal anyway. Unfortunately, in today’s media, too many outlets (including many that we consider reliable) don’t actually distinguish between reporting and opinion. The lines ate blurred. It’s an ongoing problem. Blueboar (talk) 16:56, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

ReneeRuin.com is used as source on four enwiki pages. I found no "ReneeRuin" or "Renee Ruin" on any project page (hopefully including the WP:RS archives). Renee Ruin: Australia's Queen Of The Night Interviewed and other uses showing up in a google search aren't clear, is this source good enough to confirm two appearances in notable fashion magazines? The issue popped up in a GA review, and putting it mildly I'm no expert wrt fashion topics. –84.46.52.48 (talk) 15:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Just another blog, so no.Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Diff, thanks. –84.46.52.48 (talk) 20:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Good Worldwide good.is? Emass100 (talk) 19:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

To what end? Their https://goodmediagroup.com/About page doesn't seem to make it clear that there is editorial oversight, nor does their https://goodmediagroup.com/Terms-of-Service page. As a general source, I wouldn't use it. What exactly are you thinking it could be used for? Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:41, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz, the article in question is Kyle Kulinski, a YouTuber. We are currently discussing on the talk page whether details of his political positions are noteworthy enough for inclusion in the article. His notability is primarily due to his progressive politics, but there has been little discussion of the details of his political stances in reliable sources. --valereee (talk) 20:23, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

In this instance, https://www.good.is/features/kyle-kulinski-sanders-trump is the link being used.

It is written by Eric Pfeiffer who is listed on the contributors page: https://www.good.is/contributors/eric-pfeiffer

That source is being used to support the statement that Kulinski is, "an affiliate of The Young Turks network", which I think it satisfies.

I do not, however, see any editorial oversight or any process for publishing retractions or corrections, so I wouldn't offer a blanket "reliable" to the source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:38, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz, the basic question we're arguing is whether coverage in that source (which I agree is likely-reliable for asserting that he's an affiliate of The Young Turks) also proves that the details of his political stances are noteworthy enough to be covered. I'm arguing that if the details of his political stances (whether he's pro-choice, pro-LBGTQ+, etc.) were noteworthy, they'd be getting coverage in reliable sources, which they aren't. They're only getting covered in sources like Good.is and similar. Good.is may be in fact reliable for such details, but I think we need more to prove noteworthiness of those details, and that simply stating he's politically progressive is sufficient coverage of his political stances. Emass100 is arguing that coverage of the details in multiple similar sources shows noteworthiness, and that we should include. --valereee (talk) 10:21, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Is E! Online (RSP entry) a reliable source for I Admit (R. Kelly song)? Specifically, I'm referring to the following sentence:

An attorney representing the family of Jocelyn Savage, one of the daughters mentioned in DeRogatis's BuzzFeed News article, rebuked Kelly for trying to "shift the narrative" and demanded Savage's release.^[1]

The problem here is that the woman's name is Joycelyn Savage, not Jocelyn Savage. The correct name "Joycelyn" was used by reliable sources including CBS News (here), Rolling Stone (RSP entry) (here), and even later articles published by E! Online (e.g. here). In E! Online's defense, reliable sources such as Newsweek (RSP entry) (here) and USA Today (here) also used the incorrect name "Jocelyn" in older reports that have yet to be corrected.

I've tried contacting E! Online at their listed email to submit a correction, but they did not respond or fix the name in the article. As the attorney only spoke with E! Online regarding the song, there is also no substitute for this source.

What's the best way to handle this? Should I rephrase the sentence to avoid using the incorrect name "Jocelyn", use sic, explain the discrepancy in a footnote, or avoid using this article altogether? — Newslinger talk 07:20, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Newslinger, I'd treat it as if it were any other typo -- if the sentence in the article had said, "an atorney for the family of Joycelyn Savage" for instance, you wouldn't worry about it unless you were directly quoting, which you aren't (in that case I'd put a sic). If other reliable sources agree on the spelling of her name, I'd just make the correction. --valereee (talk) 10:53, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

"Fox has long been a bane of liberals, but in the past two years many people who watch the network closely, including some Fox alumni, say that it has evolved into something that hasn’t existed before in the United States. Nicole Hemmer, an assistant professor of Presidential studies at the University of Virginia's Miller Center and the author of Messengers of the Right, a history of the conservative media's impact on American politics, says of Fox, 'It’s the closest we've come to having state TV.'"^[1]

"[E]veryone ought to see it for what it is: Not a normal news organization with inevitable screw-ups, flaws and commercial interests, which sometimes fail to serve the public interest. But a shameless propaganda outfit, which makes billions of dollars a year as it chips away at the core democratic values we ought to hold dear: truth, accountability and the rule of law. Despite the skills of a few journalists who should have long ago left the network in protest, Fox News has become an American plague."^[2]

Still it has its defenders here. I guess so does the flat earth. Go figure. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Can we please put a moratorium on reviews Fox News barring any clear evidenace that their routine news reporting has been broken to the point of unusability? Opinions are not sufficient for this, particularly in the current political climate. We just had this discussion in the last two months. --Masem (t) 03:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this is ridiculous. If two opinion pieces in rival outfits was all it took to ban a news service, then we'd have to strip every single news source from Wikipeida. Maybe say no Fox News RFCs for a year. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 04:15, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

There has only been one uninterrupted Fox News RfC on this noticeboard (in 2010). To prevent these recurring discussions, I advise the editor who will start the next Fox News discussion to make it an RfC to definitively establish the reliability of Fox News. Due to editor fatigue, it would probably be better to wait at least a few months (or for a major new development) before starting this RfC. — Newslinger talk 01:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• Can someone just close this? There's already been more than enough discussions on the topic. Despite the outright hatred some editors have for Fox News, the consensus is not going to change and providing biased opinion pieces does not help to make a serious argument--Rusf10 (talk) 04:29, 9 March 2019 (UTC).

Whilst we do not have to discus this every 6 weeks consensus can change, and thus it is never final.Slatersteven (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Characterising it as hatred is completely unacceptable. The idea that Fox's biased reporting is dangerous is completely mainstream and defensible even if it is completely repudiated by the right. The existence of Shep Smith does not offset the fact that Hannity is the station's most-watched show, and both it and Fox & Friends, recognizably opinion shows not news, are nonetheless interpreted as fact by white nationalists and other hatemongers. One hatemonger in particular. It is perfectly legitimate to question the effects of this on American political discourse, and in fact the late and unlamented Roger Ailes expressed exactly these concerns. Guy (Help!) 05:38, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Which is why we recognize that the only real reliable content on Fox is their regular news reporting, not their analysis pieces, and certainly not their opinion shows like Hannity. Where they are reporting on something neutral, Fox wors just as well as any other mainstream source. --Masem (t) 05:44, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

The Jane Mayer article in the New Yorker is not an opinion piece. The Fox News defenders on this board insist again and again that the Fox News' news division is entirely reliable, yet this article documents how the news division spiked the Stormy Daniels story (after verifying it) in the lead-up to the 2016 election. That's not how a normal news division behaves. It's unclear to me why this doesn't alter their thinking about Fox News' news division. But this discussion is not going to go anywhere because these discussions always get side-tracked into completely irrelevant discussions about the RS status of Fox's opinion content (e.g. see Guy's comment and Masem's "that's opinion, not the news division" response), which has NEVER been disputed (Hannity is not considered RS anywhere on Wikipedia). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 09:56, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Fox defenders insist that it produces "news reporting" that is reliable. That's the news department that reported the Seth Rich murder conspiracy theory as fact, reported the Pizzagate conspiracy theory as fact, and reported—until Election Day—that there was a caravan that included Middle Eastern terrorists marching toward the southern border of the United States. (Somehow, after Election Day, the caravan disappeared from Fox News' radar.) Tell us again why articles from the news department at Fox can be considered reliable. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Every single news channel has made errors and later corrected them. It is that which is important - even the NYT has used misleading headlines and articles from time to time. You can hate the 'editorial commentary', but the repeated result here has been that Fox News is as reliable as its direct competitors. Raising this issue a hundred times does not affect the positions of editors here in the past. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/08/cnn-trump-error-journalism-287914 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/business/media/cnn-retracted-story-on-trump.html https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cnn-boston-marathon-bombing-mistake-441551 This is why corrections get made. It does not make the sources evil. Collect (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

When has Fox News issued corrections or apologies for pushing any of those lies? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• "Fox News corrections" brings up several instances of Fox correcting their news reporting that they mistaken. They aren't covering for their talking heads, which we don't consider RS, nor would we expect similar corrections from other talking heads from other networks or sources, since those are opinions and analysis, not factual. --Masem (t) 00:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• I also agree that a Fox News RfC has been long overdue, especially considering that its reputation has changed a lot since 2010, and I'd be in support of starting the RfC a reasonable amount of time after the current spate of RfCs ends, considering the amount of discussion Fox News generates here. Aside from political POV pushing, a major problem for Wikipedia is over-reliance on news sources in cases where non-news sources are readily available, e.g. news sources reporting on scientific discoveries and statistics. Finding and removing errors stemming from these news sources is arduous work, and some form of formal banning of sources prone to uncorrected errors would be a much better use of everyone's time. Daß Wölf 00:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • We just had a well-participated discussion on Fox News less than 3 months ago [25]. It is well recognized that there are parts of Fox News, like Hannity and other talking-heads shows, that are so far from being anything close to an RS, but Fox's normal reporting, w/o opinion, is factual and fine as an RS. --Masem (t) 00:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
    • You can keep saying that until you turn blue, but it doesn't make it true. Fox News is always a shitty source. It has no editorial guidelines to speak of, it does not routinely correct mistaken news stories, but it does frequently peddle lies and conspiracy theories of the far right as if they were fact. Too frequently for anybody with a lick of sense to consider it a reliable source. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
      • https://www.foxnews.com/politics/statement-on-coverage-of-seth-rich-murder-investigation that looks like a retraction to me. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 04:40, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
        • FWIW (in response to Daß Wölf), I don't think Fox's reputation has changed a bit since 2010, besides the fact that Trump is now in the picture. It's just as controversial now as it was then. But back in 2010, the same people criticizing it for its commentators' ties to Trump criticized it for its commentators' ties to Republicans. We should judge Fox by its straight news reporting (which is comparable to other mainstream sources), not those commentators like Hannity. --1990'sguy (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

I suggest we collect reliable sources and focus on them. --Ronz (talk) 22:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

• https://archives.cjr.org/cover_story/dumb_like_a_fox.php
• https://www.cjr.org/tow_center/fox-news-partisan-progaganda-research.php

I suggest folding this discussion for a while. I've a more comprehensive RfC in the works. François Robere (talk) 18:38, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I will be fully supporting the inclusion of FOX News (news, not talk shows) as highly reliable for the following reason: quite frequently, when I check a paywalled source (New York Times, Washington Post, Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal) on the ProQuest database at my library, I end up sourcing instead to the very same factual story found on FOX News, because it is not paywalled, is freely available for our readers to verify, and contains the same or similar information every time. If my choice is to source something to ProQuest with no link for reader verification or to source something to FOX News that our readers can verify and it says the same thing, I will prefer a freely available source. Every news outlet makes mistakes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Sandy, I'm really surprised. That's about the lowest possible inclusion criteria possible. By that logic, even the most inaccurate sources would be preferable to professional sources with a good record for fact checking, just because they don't have a paywall.

Fox News has a terrible fact checking record and consistently ranks last for accuracy among the major news channels. It was not created by Ailes with the intention to be a normal "news" source, but to be a propaganda channel to promote the GOP party line, especially in opposition to Roger Ailes' personal enemy, The Washington Post. Ailes was part of the Nixon administration, and he deliberately chose to side with the criminals and oppose the source which exposed them. THAT is the agenda driving Fox News. Even with your eyes closed, it's obviously ONLY pro Trump/GOP/Russia/right-wing. The exception that proves the rule is Shep Smith. He consistently takes his colleagues to task for their falsehoods and misleading reporting. He acts like a real journalist, not a talking head pushing predetermined talking points regardless of the facts.

The "every news outlet makes mistakes" whataboutism/false equivalence doesn't even begin to include Fox News, which is extremely partisan, is anything but "fair and balanced" (they have dropped that false slogan), and has moved into the White House and pretty much dictates Trump's policies and understandings. They certainly have Putin's approval and often push his party line. Fox always, with the exception of Shep Smith, couches facts in a bed of misleading commentary and falsehoods.

In short, you're better than this. Sure, a paywall is irritating, but it has ZERO relevance to the reliability of a source, and, in fact, the best sources are often behind a paywall, so "zero" isn't accurate. Just clear your cache, switch browsers, or find the same info you find in a search from another source, when it quotes the Times or Post, and still use the Times or Post as the reference. It's not that hard. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 19:48, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I repeat (because you seem to have misunderstood the conditional in my statement). If, when I check the library, I find that the sources say essentially or exactly the same thing (as I most often find they do), I will cite a freely available source over a paywalled source. And because so many sources are going to subscription, I often find only FOX is left, unless I want to go to some obscure local newspaper. I think the reader benefits more by being able to verify that a source is correctly reflected, whatever it is.

And when I do all those tricks you mention, and search for another source, what often comes up is FOX, saying exactly the same thing as the NY Times is saying. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, Fox has plenty of real journalists. Don't pretend Shepard Smith is the only one. Chris Wallace, Bret Baier, John Roberts, Leland Vittert, etc. --1990'sguy (talk) 15:33, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

• It it time already for our monthly discussion about Fox News? GMG^talk 20:05, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

  @GreenMeansGo: I'm trying to have a nice collection of Wiki-skeptics review this before I proceed. Feel free to go through it and leave your notes on the talk. Thanks. François Robere (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

  Umm... I mean... I don't like Fox. I don't know why my retired parents watch it. But I don't watch cable news at all. I don't have TV. The main incentive of a 24 hour "news network" is primarily to fill up time. So I judge them based on their print journalism, which does often differ markedly from other print journalism in it's political bias. But bias doesn't equal unreliable. We're not talking about Alex Jones saying that Obama is literally a demon. One of those is political bias, and the other is a clinical level of delusion, where we shouldn't use that source for any reason ever. But you also have to keep in mind that the print journalism is the primary thing we cite on Wikipedia. I don't recommend anyone watch CNN either. It's mostly time-filling garbage. But their print journalism is okay.GMG^talk 22:37, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

  I completely agree, I just think there's a difference between serious conservative journalism and sensational tabloid-style crap, which much of the FN website is. CNN may be boring and unenlightening, but FN's website can quickly pull you in towards blatant fallacies and conspiracy theories; in fact, intentionally so. François Robere (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

• Judge the print edition by how many times they refuse to correct an error. It's a source that's consistently conservative no matter who is in office. And it's ironic to hear people who think they disagree with Fox News bemoan state run institutions. Connor Behan (talk) 18:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Nice straw man you built there. Nobody is "bemoan[ing] state run [sic] institutions"; we just don't like state media. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

• Hosting political commentators who happen to support the current U.S. administration does not make a media site "state media." Likewise, I doubt the commentators on Fox were engaged in rebellion against the state under the Obama Administration. Free speech goes both ways. --1990'sguy (talk) 15:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure where to duscuss to what extent patents are RS. Please comment whether it makes sense to talk about patents in WP:RS. This is what I wrote in talk:String bag. Now it occurs to me the issue deserves a broader discussion, since a patent looks so official, solid, reliable.

"Yes, patents are reliable sources about specific items they patent. They are not reliable sources about more general things. Any redneck may invent a better mousetrap. This does not make him an expert on mousetraps to be cited in wikipedia. He is an expert only on the mousetrap he invented. Basically, a patent is a self-published source, without peer review. The only professional review the patent gets is its novelty and other patentability issues." - Altenmann >talk 02:55, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Patents can be used as primary sources, which are allowed for uncontroversial self-descriptions. To avoid original research, any interpretations of patents should cite a reliable secondary source. — Newslinger talk 05:10, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Patents are PRIMARY sources. They authorship is by the inventors and (usually) a patent editor. The editorial oversight of the patent office is mainly limited to accepting or rejecting the patent (they may request corrections) - and is often very lax (you may patent nearly anything - until you try to apply the patent and challenge something in court... there's little oversight) - even from a novelty and patent-ability context. Some patents are complete and utter garbage (devices that won't work, quack science, hypothetical devices, etc.) - this obviously usually isn't the case when submitted by known authors/companies, but some small scale inventors may file and get through the process with a device that has no chance of working. Also in a mainstream context the conversion from a technical description to legalese (in the process, usually generalizing and widening the scope of the invention as much as possible) - often leads to patents which from a technical standpoint are close to incomprehensible. In short - possible for use in a limited fashion for attributed statements/descriptions by the author's of the patents in relation to their own devices. Icewhiz (talk) 06:58, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• All the above, its a primary source so could be used for non technical and non controversial statements, but for naff all else.Slatersteven (talk) 09:13, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) A patent is reliable for the fact that a patent exists, for it's patent number, for the title, for the inventor's name, and if appropriate perhaps for quoting a patent claim. That's about it. A lot of care must be used, I could get a patent claiming faster-than-light engine by smearing peanutbutter on a lightbulb. I might also get a patent for creating fire by rubbing two sticks together. The fact that a patent was issues doesn't mean the patent works, nor does it assure that anything new was invented. Basically a patent is a reliable source that someone holds a piece of paper with one-or-more claims printed on it and that paper has a government number stamped on it. Alsee (talk) 09:20, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Patents are primary sources - the number, names, dates are clearly usable. The claim which is finally accepted by the patent office is frequently incomprehensible, and the fist claim submitted is not generally what is accepted for the grant of the patent, nor is the value of a patent or usability of a patent asserted by the document, only that the office found it not to conflict with a patent already issued. Many applications go through a number of attempted claims. Recall that a claim in a patent, no matter how complex, consists of a single unreadable sentence. Quoting one in Wikipedia would drive sane persons up the wall. Collect (talk) 12:32, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• I agree with Alsee. Approved patents are reliable primary sources for their existance, and the basic information in them. They are often used inappropriately in Wikipedia articles for promotional reasons. --Ronz (talk) 16:33, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I was not asking the question I should have. Patents have the "Background of the Invention" section, which describes the area to which the patent belongs, the purpose of the invention, prior art, etc. This part is clearly a secondary source, hence WP:PRIMARY argument is not applicable, hence all answers above are only partial.

Therefore I invoked the "self-published" clause. Is this correct? Any other comments on the "Background" section of patents?- Altenmann >talk 17:10, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Ahh I think I understand, yes a patent is self published pinion.Slatersteven (talk) 17:05, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Another unanswered question is whether patents deserve a separate mention in the WP:RS guideline.- Altenmann >talk 17:00, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

The recommended format for this noticeboard is to give specific references and usage. Please give at least some examples so we're not wasting time.

A patent application is the work of the claimant. The application is reviewed for the claims being patentable and coverage by other patents. Treating it as self-published should work in most situations. A patent generally should not be used to verify anything other than that the patent exists and the basic information in it. --Ronz (talk) 18:12, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Patents are a Reliable Source and have a Wikipedia Template to facilitate in-line citations. Patents contain a wealth of information. Patent examiners are experts in their field and conduct a thorough review (with substantive and editorial changes) prior to publication. Patents usually have a "Background" section which discusses the broad subject being discussed, current usage and practice; thus is a Secondary Source. Patents reference earlier work which might relate to the subject. they also list newer patents which use this patent as a source. They then go on to discuss the specific item or process which provides for improvement. The specific novel technical information might be considered as a Primary Source. Pkgx (talk) 18:14, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Pkgx: Can you provide sources for any of that, because I believe there's strong, general consensus against it - enough for a WP:RSP entry. --Ronz (talk) 18:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I heartily disagree with Pkgx's assessment. Even if patent examiners were experts in the fields in which they review patients (which they are not), they do not provide any form of editorial control for the background section. That section a WP:SPS and one doesn't know whether it was written by the inventors or patent lawyers. Eperoton (talk) 19:13, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Patent examiners rarely review the background section. Heck - they rarely do a good job on the claims section - patents are often thrown out on court challenges (e.g. by finding prior art - I once found a m.sc thesis in French which was published prior art to a patent issued 15 years later). Examiners devote very little time to each patent and usually concentrate on form. They are not domain experts (anymore than a patent editor is) - they have a general understanding of the field they work in, but not much beyond that. Is a patent a SPS? Probably not. However the editorial controls are very very weak (as evident in the very high rate of patents being struck when actually challenged in court).Icewhiz (talk) 19:26, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Precisely correct. And note that only the single last claim (generally the narrowest) is what the examiner has accepted. And it is rarely readable at all. Robert_H._Rines taught classes on Patents at MIT. Collect (talk) 21:55, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

There is (I think) a genuine discussion to be had here on the wider issue. Whilst (technically) a patent is not published by the writer there is little or no editorial control exercised by the publisher (thus making it much more akin to a news paper blog or op-edd).Slatersteven (talk) 08:53, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Every U.S. patent has a line in the database indicating which law firm represents the applicant (or, in rare cases, that the applicant is representing themselves). For example, if you look up U.S. Patent No. 10,237,622 for a "Page turning method, page turning apparatus and terminal as well as computer readable medium", you will see that the patent owner is Tencent, a world leader in various technologies, and that the law firm representing them with respect to this patent is Oblon, McClelland, Maier & Neustadt, L.L.P., one of the leading patent firms in the world. It is highly likely that any patent written by Oblon attorneys for company like Tencent will have been written with meticulous input from both lawyers and experts in the field to insure that the background material is factually correct. I would have no problem relying on this as a source equal to a book on a technical subject produced by a typical author and publisher in the field. bd2412 T 13:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

There may indeed have been a number of people involved with writing the patent, but their goal is to create a patent that protects their product/invention - not one that is neutral or "accurate" in the encyclopedic sense. VQuakr (talk) 14:40, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Okay, let's go there. Most people who write anything have a set of biases informing their writing, and frequently a goal that deviates from providing neutral information - book sales, critical acclaim, academic promotion, etc. The authors of a patent, however, are writing primarily for the purpose of persuading a patent examiner, who is supposed to be an expert in the technological field at issue, to grant their patent. Therefore, the patent writers must take great care to be accurate, because if they say something wrong, they are liable to have their patent rejected. Consider the language of the Oblon "page turning method" patent referenced above. The first part of the background section says:

Nowadays, with rapid development of smart televisions and digital set top boxes, users use a Video-On-Demand (VOD) function of the smart televisions and the digital set top boxes more and more frequently. At present, the smart televisions normally are configured with VOD pages for displaying television programs in pages, in which the VOD pages are configured with page turning instructions, and a remote controller corresponding to the smart television is configured with an UP button, a DOWN button, a LEFT button, a RIGHT button and a CONFIRM button, the current VOD page of the smart television will display focused objects in lines and columns for identifying available television programs, and a focus point can be jumped among these focused objects according to signals triggered by the buttons of the remote controller. With respect to the video-on-demand page and the remote controller, there is a page turning method, and this method may include: firstly displaying a focus on a current video-on-demand page of a smart television, a user can make the focus jump onto the next line of focused objects on the current video-on-demand page by triggering the DOWN button on the remote controller, and when the focus jumps to the last line of focused objects on the current video-on-demand and the DOWN button on the remote controller is triggered again, the focus on the smart television will jump onto a page turning instruction displayed on the current video-on-demand page, and at this time, if the CONFIRM button on the remote controller is triggered, it is possible to realize the page turning operation on the video-on-demand page.

Most of this content is uncontroversial, and WP:SKYISBLUE obvious. However, sometimes you do need to cite that the sky is blue, so if we actually need a citation for the fact that people are increasingly using smart TV video-on-demand functions, this should be a reliable source for that fact. I would agree that the patent should not be a reliable source for the potentially controversial claims of the patent, i.e. that it is describes the first technology to solve a certain problem, and that the solution is novel and nonobvious. However, for the basic "sky is blue" sort of information describing the background preceding the asserted invention, I would think that a patent prosecuted by a highly reputable law firm is as reliable as any typical book or magazine pulled off a shelf. bd2412 T 21:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Alas -- the examiner does not care one whit about the "background" accuracy - there is certainly no "fact checking" done on that section. The only part that is "examined" is the final "accepted claim" which is generally impossible for any normal person to understand. And "law firms" producing "boilerplate" do not set high standards for accuracy either. Collect (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

But that at least does point to the fact that a patent is effectiely an SPS RS that is fine to use to describe motivations and intents of a noted invention. If a patent's background stated they were making a novel way to cut down the number of buttons that were common on TV remotes at the time, and the patent is the only place that's been stated, then in an article about the inventor or technology, that would be fair to include. But that's in the context of an SPS, it's not an RS for talking about TV remotes in general. --Masem (t) 23:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

In addition to WP:V, patents can not be used to establish an organization's notability WP:ORGIND as it isn't an independent source. Just because there is a template doesn't mean it has a lot of valid use for it. Graywalls (talk) 19:38, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

The Washington Times[26] is a reliable source and should be recognized as such by WP.

For example, the Associated Press regularly publishes Washington Times articles on its website: [27] According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, the AP is listed as a reliable source, so this makes no sense if it frequently publishes unreliable articles.

It's also been recognized several times by the Society of Professional Journalists[28][29][30]

I regularly read Reuters, the WSJ, and USA Today-affiliates (and I would read WaPo and the NYT regularly if it weren't for their paywalls), and I don't see any difference between WT news articles in how they're written and the others. --1990'sguy (talk) 14:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Not really, just because they republish some stuff does not mean the stuff they do not publish is reliable. rather it means they have checked the reliability of the stuff they have republished.Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

But the AP, based on the link, republishes a significant number of WT articles, not just a few every once in a while. The AP page I linked shows it republished ~50-or-so articles in the past 2.5 days. --1990'sguy (talk) 14:57, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

How many stories does the WT publish both in print and online a day, all content?Slatersteven (talk) 17:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

This is just an estimate, but I'm guessing 30 a day at most -- the WT really doesn't publish a lot of its own stories daily, at least compared to other sources like NYT, Fox, etc. A large number of its stories are republished AP stories. --1990'sguy (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

So you do not know, what mattes is not how many AP publish, but what percentage.Slatersteven (talk) 12:52, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

If you don't want estimates, I recommend you ask WT directly, not me. As a frequent reader, I can say that the Associated Press republishes a significant percentage of WT's news articles. --1990'sguy (talk) 13:34, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

• See Perennial_sources. Unlike Washington Post, this is only a marginally reliable and highly partisan source. My very best wishes (talk) 19:33, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Once again, WT has been recognized by at least one major journalistic organization for the quality of its articles, and the Associated Press has no problem publishing over a dozen of its "marginally reliable" articles every day. I frequently read the WT, and I also daily read Reuters, the WSJ, and other sources WP considers perfectly reliable -- and I don't see any difference between them (the editorial sections are something else, but they don't count for here). --1990'sguy (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:General disclaimer. It is not reliable for anything. My very best wishes (talk) 14:54, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

That link has nothing to do with this discussion. Maybe you misread "and other sources WP considers perfectly reliable"? --1990'sguy (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

1990'sguy, what was the reward, from who, and when? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacona (talk • contribs) 20:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

On the subject of awards, the Daily myth won a plenty, did not stop it being a byword for shoddy check book journalism.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Who did it receive the rewards from? I didn't link to just any journalistic organization (I found some others that recognized the WT). The Society of Professional Journalists is a major and respected organization.

Bottom line, WT receives very different treatment by authoritative sources on journalism (such as the AP and SPJ) compared to sources like Breitbart and the Daily Caller. Its news articles have the same quality as those like the AP and Reuters, and thus, WP should treat WT as it does the latter and not the former. --1990'sguy (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

To be fair, Wikipedia does already treat WT differently from Breitbart and DC. feminist (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

• No, because:

1. ...  the Associated Press regularly publishes Washington Times articles on its website ... That might be because The Washington Times is an AP member. The AP publishes content from all its 1,300 members (it's the largest news organization in the world). I don't believe they're all reliable sources. To become a member, one must pay the fee. I'm not sure how much of a journalistic stamp of approval AP membership is.
2. WT has been recognized by at least one major journalistic organization for the quality of its articles ... The Society of Professional Journalists ... Not exactly. SPJ never gave The Washington Times an award. It gave awards to individual WT stories, in categories like Sports Column Writing (daily circulation under 100,000) [31], Public Service (circulation under 100,000) [32], and Deadline Reporting (circulation under 50,000) and Investigative Reporting (circulation under 50,000) [33]. I don't doubt that over the years, even WT has put out four articles that could win a minor award in a minor category.
3. If you want to know why not The Washington Times?, it's pretty well answered over at The Washington Times. WP:RSP's assessment of WT seems correct to me. Leviv ich 19:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

1990'sguy, that's not how it works. Sources are not declared reliable or unreliable with the sole exception of the Daily Mail. The reliblity of each article is determined by editors on a case by case basis. "Perennial sources" merely summarizes past discussions of major sources. It says that previous discussions have found the WT "marginally reliable" and recommends using better sources when available. But no one should question that editors should choose the best sources or that there are better sources than the WT.

I came across the publication in 2009 when an article was used called "Obama climate czar has socialist ties." No other newspaper found it newsworthy that Browner had worked with U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown and other center left leaders in a global warming seminar. The article falsely claims that she was listed as a member of the Socialist international (SI), that member parties such as the U.K. Labour Party were "harshly critical of U.S. policies" and that the SI called for "global governance." In fact, individuals cannot be members. The Labour Party government was strongly supportive of the U.S., particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the SI is strongly opposed to the Chavista regime in Venezuela. Guaido's party is in fact a member of the SI. Ronald Reagan's ambassador to the UN was a member of an SI member organization. And the reference to global governance is taken out of context. A Commission of the SI called for global governance, i.e., the world's governments, to address global warming.

Based on that example, when you use WT articles, you run the risk that you are using stories ignored elsewhere and that contain ideologically convenient misinformation. But there is no ban so far.

TFD (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

I still can't find anything about WT receiving journalistic awards.Jacona (talk) 21:06, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

This page lists 2 from 2013. Note though they are in a low circulation category for the awards. TFD (talk) 06:11, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

In multiple instances, I've attempted to rephrase and/or eliminate blogs from War bonnet and Order of the Arrow as discussed in previous noticeboard discussions as well as individual talk page discussions at Talk:Order of the Arrow and Talk:War bonnet. User:CorbieVreccan has undone virtually all of them with what seems to be dismissive, unnecessarily aggressive, misleading, and/or POV-pushing edit summaries/rationales.

Edit summary examples:

• Deletion of sourced content and criticism per POV push.
• Deletion of sourced content. Keene is one of the most-cited authors in the field, an Ivy League professor. WP is not censored.
• Keene is an expert in the field and that is her official site. You are engaging in a POV push to censor criticism of the group.
• Citation is there to source that there have been criticisms.
• Disruptive editing, removal of expert sources on topic
• Rv deletion of sourced content While this is an issue addressed below, he also reverted an inaccurate statement as well.

Accusations of POV-pushing or censorship are laughable. I am not interested in pushing the "right" version, only in upholding the editorial standards of Wikipedia via WP:V, WP:RS, WP:N, WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE, and WP:NPOV. I've attempted numerous edits only to have blanket reversions of all changes. There is no discussion of such changes, only "no, not that"-type "arguments". To the contrary, User:CorbieVreccan openly admits he/she has an agenda to combat "systemic bias" on Wikipedia and is exhibiting ownership of whole classes of articles. He/she has stated that people can't properly edit such pages without his/her "Cultural competency" [which is required to evaluate [these] sources."]. I contend that our editorial standards are sufficient and that there exists enough reliable sources that we don't suddenly "need" to abandon our standards and resort to inclusion of zero-editorial-control/zero-editorial-standards blogs and WP:FRINGE opinions. Buffs (talk) 04:36, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

This specifically references: www.nativeappropriations.com and the previous discussion. I don't care if Keene is a well-respected academic on par with Newton or 4th rate hack of a professor. The use of an individual's personal blog as a citation is strictly limited. If it is "often cited" we should use those peer-reviewed citations/conclusions. As such, the use of this blog should be confined to the pages on the author and the webpage itself. Other references should be removed/replaced. This was what I felt was the conclusion/consensus of the previous discussion. If others feel I'm incorrect in my conclusion, please let me know. Buffs (talk) 04:36, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Please use the recommended format for this noticeboard.

The past discussion which you link makes it clear that this specific blog can be used. --Ronz (talk) 20:53, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

How did you draw that conclusion? Buffs (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

By reading the discussion, and referring to existing policy. --Ronz (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Could you be SLIGHTLY more specific than "everything". GMG and I both contended that the blog shouldn't be used. Another claimed that the source could be better and that others were indeed available. Only the adder said it should be used. We generally don't allow blogs. How is that a consensus it should be added? Buffs (talk) 21:47, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

As cited in the previous discussion: per WP:BLOGS: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Native Appropriations and Adrienne Keene clearly meet that criteria. Additionally, The discussion was fairly equally-weighted, in terms of !votes. At worst you could say the discussion yielded no consensus, so, obviously, we go with the policy. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 22:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:ONUS. GMG^talk 22:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

More like WP:IDHT. --Ronz (talk) 00:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking similarly. Looks an awful lot like no consensus for inclusion of a blog then. GMG^talk 00:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps I missed the policy-based response to the expertise and credentials of the author of the blog? Could someone provide diffs and summarize? --Ronz (talk) 00:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Corbie, this is the FIRST time you've EVER brought up WP:BLOGS and that quote in over a month of discussions, but you also neglect to mention the rest of the paragraph (cherry picking ONLY what supports your assertion). the whole quote:

• First of all, the note that you omitted from the quote: Please do note that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources.
• Second, the following sentences: Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent reliable sources (there is a note that adds a lot more to it, but I omitted for the sake of brevity; see WP:BLOGS, note 10 for more info)

There ARE other sources that have editorial controls in place and should be used instead of a personal blog. Buffs (talk) 15:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Buffs, I brought up the policy immediately and repeatedly. You just didn't listen. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

God grief! Are you just making up facts as you go along? Are you gaslighting us? YOU NEVER MENTIONED WP:BLOGS OR QUOTED IT in the previous discussion until this discussion!!! Prove me wrong! Buffs (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Sigh. Gee, what's that: "Keene is an expert in the field and that is her official site." - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 22:48, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea. What is that? I see ZERO policy pages/quotes regarding WP:BLOGS brought up in that edit...still... Buffs (talk) 00:07, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

GMG has opened an RfC on a specific citation to Dr. Keene without listing it in *this* current discussion. It all feels like trawling for the opinions GMG and Buffs want to hear. It seems excessive to me. I think this was basically resolved with the first RS Noticeboard discussion as an allowable source. Am I missing something? Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 00:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I opened an RfC when it was clear that any nuance in an unstructured discussion was being summarily disregarded, as you seem to have done with your own comment here. At the time I started the RfC, most everyone here was already involved in the article, besides me. GMG^talk 01:34, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

• [34]
• [35]
• [36]

This is a related matter. In multiple instances, User:CorbieVreccan has inserted references that do not apply to the statements at hand in order to apparently bolster the accuracy of the statement via WP:CITEKILL. The best example of this is Order_of_the_Arrow#Concerns_of_Cultural_Appropriation which currently states

The Order of the Arrow has been protested and criticized for engaging in cultural appropriation and spreading stereotypes of, and racism against, Native Americans.^[1]>^[2][3][4]

The third reference is a book excerpt from page 126...but it doesn't mention anything about protests, criticism, racism, cultural appropriation, or stereotypes and, therefore, doesn't belong here. I've attempted to remove this reference and discussed it, but it is added back by User:CorbieVreccan under the guise that it is a valid reference: [37]

Another is [38] where the same person continues to add a source that doesn't back up the given statement.

An additional problem is that none of these opinions have been demonstrated to be held by anything other than a WP:FRINGE minority. Given that most such statements are contentious, our standards should be higher. User:CorbieVreccan seems to believe that just because a source can be produced that backs up his/her personal opinion, that it should be included whether or not such an opinion meets WP:N, WP:RS, or WP:FRINGE criteria.

The best example of this is Order_of_the_Arrow#Concerns_of_Cultural_Appropriation which currently states

The Order of the Arrow has been protested and criticized for engaging in cultural appropriation and spreading stereotypes of, and racism against, Native Americans.^[1][5][3][4]

The first reference points to a letter to the editor. I think it's fair to say that this opinion is indeed the opinion of the writer and has met at least some editorial controls. While it isn't ideal, fine. The second is an online paper that quotes the same person in the first reference as justification for the same opinion. The third is addressed in case #2. The last one is a personal blog. I see nothing to demonstrate that this is anything other than a WP:Fringe opinion. As such, it should be removed or, at a bare minimum, noted that these are the opinions of only a few people. Buffs (talk) 04:36, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

This noticeboard is for discussion on the reliability of sources. The preferred format for starting a discussion here is to identify a specific source and the specific use of that source which is in question. Please consider using that format or something similar. --Ronz (talk) 20:50, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Given that this is a wide-ranging problem, it has multiple components of problems:

1. Blog as a source (I do not concur that the discussion was concluded as supporting a blog's inclusion)
2. Citations added that do not support the given sentence (and being re-added without justification)
3. Inclusion of WP:FRINGE opinions on these two articles via unreliable/dubious sources and WP:SYNTH.

How would you suggest submitting them? Buffs (talk) 16:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

At this point it's unclear if you're willing to work with others and respect consensus. --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, I guess if disagreement with you is the standard, I guess not, but it also isn't a good standard. I've helped with at least 5 FAs, 2 pretty much on my own. I can collaborate with others just fine, but we also have to have standards for inclusion. Instead of belittling/mocking me, why don't you WP:AGF] and just address the question at hand? Buffs (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:FOC. --Ronz (talk) 00:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

YHGBKM! Your entire statement impugned my character implying I was unable to work with others/respect consensus and I addressed your unfounded accusations. Knock it off.Buffs (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Struck out.

You want to be treated like an experienced editor, yet the initial RSN request and subsequent responses appear to ignore content and behavioral policy, past discussions, and the instructions for using this noticeboard. This is the type behavior that is used as evidence of problems at ArbCom. --Ronz (talk) 18:56, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I thought we were WP:FOC? Seems to be a bit of a one-way street on that front.

The initial format was the best I thought for purposes of the 3 separate, but related, WP:RS issues. I've asked twice now how it should have been done in your opinion ([39] [40]) and you continue to insist that it's done the wrong way without specification. Then you accuse such question of being outside behavioral norms and vaguely insinuate that further responses are indicative of malfeasance you're gonna take to ArbCom? What ever happened to WP:FOC? WP:AGF? WP:IAR? Buffs (talk) 20:16, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

If you're unable to take responsibility for starting this discussion and your part in it, then how do you expect to find any consensus? --Ronz (talk) 22:40, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

• Well citing NOTCENSORED as a rationale to include a link to their pet blog is...well, it's a lot of things, but it's not the kind of thing that I expect to come from a user with almost 200k edits and almost 15 years on the project. I couldn't remember where I interacted with CV previously, but looking around it seems like it was at this AfD, where they also came off as fairly hysterical, and from the looks of it, drove a new editor who had gotten seven articles through AfC off the project permanently, through casting sustained aspersions, including repeated accusations of copyright violations with basically zero evidence, until I eventually threatened to take them to ANI if they didn't stop. This escapade also included a few out-of-process deletions, including of the AfD itself after I disagreed with their nomination, and...apparently the deletion of 200 year old newspaper article as being a copyright violation, because they apparently don't understand copyright very well, or had a serious momentary lapse in judgement.

I'm not sure if this is the type of behavior that is always on display with they deal with issues related to indigenous Americans, but if it is, then I seriously question their competency to work in the area collaboratively. GMG^talk 17:32, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The Pawnee capture of the Cheyenne Sacred Arrows article, when it came out of AfC, was part of a series of terrible "Indian" articles being submitted at the time by students, that all relied on out of print, inaccurate, early memoirs by colonists, some of them full of wild confabulations and offensive fantasies. Many of these unusable sources, (which are no longer used in the field due to gross inaccuries), cannot be easily checked online for copyvios, but some of us were contacted by people who had these books in hardcopy. The contributor who created the articles with inaccuracies and copied sections admitted to having a pdf of the books that he was working from, but when asked to send it to one of us, he refused. The reasons why were clear (for instance - his writing style was completely different - his fourth grade level English, with limited English vocab and choppy sentences, compared to run-on sentences with flowery, antiquated language in the copyvio text), yet you continued to aggressively defend this user. I still don't understand why you were so strongly in favor of their inaccurate, antiquated, contribs. I was in contact with other editors who were comparing his submissions to the hardcopy, and I trust their assessment that he was dropping in copied text. The Bowerey Boys deletion you link was not a deleted article, but a deleted image; all the images uploaded by that blocked sockdrawer had to be mass deleted, due to the massive volume of uploads and almost every one of their contribs being a copyvio. ANI consensus was that no one had the time to pick through every one of the sockdrawer's many uploads for an exception and mass deletions were in order, promptly, as we were finding wall to wall violations. Dealing with copyvios on WP, and people at AfC missing them and then wanting to defend the new articles they let through, there are bound to be some disagreements over the years. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

It inspires very little confidence that you were supremely motivated at the time to harass this editor over your suspicions, and yet have not (several months later) rallied the motivation to have your spy network with access to the sources indicate exactly which parts of the article are copyright violations, so that they may be removed and redacted. That you deleted three images ("mass deletion") which clearly indicated they were from the 1830s as copyright violations is merely sloppy and largely beside the point. That you apparently think that NOTCENSORED gives you justification to cite blogs is fairly amusing. What is concerning however is whether all this taken together may indicate a propensity to resort to brutishly bashing your problems until they go away, and that the topic of indigenous peoples somehow somehow excludes you from having to follow the rules. GMG^talk 19:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I edited out the copyvios myself, as I think you'd remember as you thanked me on the article. The problem user left on their own, so we didn't need to pursue a block. The image copyvios were uploaded by the user under multiple accounts, to multiple -wikis as well as commons, not just that one account on en-wiki. Drop the stick already. {eta: strike text: thanks was to a different editor; also, it's really been a while, I'd have to go over the entire history at this point to see who cut what, and on which drafts of the articles. [edit conflict: I checked some of the histories and the copy and paste inaccuracies were on multiple related articles by the same user. most of the cuts I made were on a different article than the one linked.]} - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:42, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, no. You didn't remove anything, and you definitely didn't redact anything. And you didn't need a spy network of users with hard copies, because by the time you made your only substantive edit on the article I had already found online versions of everything save a single source.

But the relevance here, and why I bring the issue up, is whether your approach of assuming anyone who disagrees with you is pushing a POV and playing fast and loose with policy because it suites you, is really very helpful. GMG^talk 20:00, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The blog has been found reliable, so removing it would be a POV vio. --Ronz (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

That's not an accurate reading of the discussion at all. Discounting the users who were already involved in the dispute before it hit RSN, we have one user (me) saying that we ought not be citing blogs, you have one user arguing that we should exclude the blog in the cases where there area already other citations in the article for the same information, and you have two editors who indicated that it could be used for attributed opinion. The only person who is arguing strongly for use of the source for unattributed facts where other sources exist in the article (i.e., the way it's currently being used in the article) is Corbie. GMG^talk 20:18, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Several of us argued for its inclusion on the topic of appropriation as Adrienne Keene is an expert in the field, and Native Appropriations is her official site. It is precisely the situation in which official blogs are useable. You are misrepresenting the discussion, GMG. You left out User:Indigenous girl as well. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:35, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, I left out IG. That still doesn't equal a consensus that this should be used for unattributed claims of fact. GMG^talk 21:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Even in the academic literature, I'm seeing things like "Keene states that it's never appropriate to wear a war bonnet", but there is no evidence that this feeling is widespread, so I'm seeing that WP:FRINGE applies here too. Buffs (talk) 15:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

What? It's been in The Guardian,[41] USA Today, [42] Irish Times [43], even Teen Vogue [44] and MTV [45]. And that's just scratching the surface. Whatever, your peculiar ideas of "widely" are, that is certainly widely. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not saying it isn't widely held, per se. I'm saying the evidence presented in the article(s) don't back that assertion. If THESE sources were there, it would make MORE sense than a blog. I still think we need to maintain our editorial standards and remove such personal blog posts. However, it's also notable that Keene is on a WIDE range of these articles. She's certainly vocal, but even the Guardian article states that it isn't a widespread movement. Buffs (talk) 20:26, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know where you get that from the Guardian article. Regardless, this Public Radio article flatly says many Native Americans are upset by the appropriation of headdresses [46]. So, is your position that Native Americans are not a wide enough group? Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

"So, is your position that Native Americans are not a wide enough group?" Wow, dude. I never said ANYTHING close to that. My position is that SOME Native Americans nebulously described as a "growing array of individual voices" in a fashion opinion piece may not represent the whole. Given that the article quotes an event 5 years ago without correction in which the patent office overstepped its legal authority on a trademark, it doesn't appear that the Guardian article is sufficient on its own. As for the NPR article, "Many" means "a lot". It doesn't necessarily mean "a majority" or "most" or even "a significant minority". If there were 2000 people in the US who held a POV, they would still be "many", but a WP:FRINGE group (organized white supremacists fall in this category as do the Black Panthers).

Now, fine. If we're going to replace these blogs and WP:FRINGE opinions with these articles, fine by me. We can phrase it in such a way to let the reader decide how much emphasis to put on it. Let's eliminate these personal blogs that exist without editorial oversight! Buffs (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, since you have been shown a wide array of media that have covered the topic - then you're clutching at straws about wideness is reprehensible, unless what you are arguing you are somehow unable to do research. And if you are unable to do research, leave the article to others. As for your critique of one source article being five years old, that should tell you that your knowledge of things is woefully deficient when it's widely disseminated knowledge -- five years ago. For goodness sake, people have written whole books on the topic. [47] -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

"Whole books" are written about the Flat Earth movement too, but that doesn't make it widespread or accurate. You're prone to take points out of context. I didn't say it wasn't true, nor that it wasn't a wide opinion. I was making a general academic statement about the terms used. I'm arguing for their inclusion over a personal blog without any form of editorial controls as well as pointing out the very weak sourcing in the article to a college paper, a college student, and a few non-notable online advocacy pieces and blogs. We even had an ungraded senior paper as a source for a little while. If these opinions are so widespread, why weren't other sources used? Buffs (talk) 22:32, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

You go from white supremacists to flat earthers and you expect people to give any credence that your ridiculous arguments have any relevance to The Guardian, NPR or ABC-CLIO and other publications. Your claims are silly, or nonsensical, on top of being reprehensible. As for an expert's blog, the rule is "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter." You say you are not disputing that people have an issue with cultural appropriation in the topic, you now seem to agree it's been widely written about - so, your taking issue that a college paper writes the same thing is truly form over function. Feel free to add sources to the article. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:56, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Buffs, you said,"Fringe opinions stated as if they are widespread/strong minority opinions". You said that. Opposing the misuse of sacred cultural items is not fringe. Not even close. The National Congress of American Indians, which is comprised of not only individual members but Nations as well have firmly spoken out against stereotyping and appropriation with their stand on mascots. The spiritual leaders of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota peoples have stated they oppose the misuse of spiritual items which would include war bonnets and the hinky 'playing indian' that the OA gets up to in their Declaration of War passed in June of 1998. Opposition is not new and it is not fringe not are indigenous people equated with flat earthers. As an indigenous person I find the comparison to flat earthers and organized white supremacists to be extremely troubling.Indigenous girl (talk) 23:10, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

This is not a fringe opinion, and the argument that it is doesn't hold water. GMG^talk 23:14, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Having said that, the fact that it is so widely covered, is exactly the reason we don't need to be using blogs or other low quality sources, because we do the subject a disservice by doing so. GMG^talk 23:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm fine with the paper being removed however I do not see Dr. Keene as a low quality source nor do others who write on the subject. That being said, I am still very troubled by Buffs claiming that those in opposition of the abuse of power by the dominant culture by misusing sacred items as fringe and akin to white supremacists. I don't know how that conclusion can even be drawn.I do not feel comfortable collaborating with them at this point.Indigenous girl (talk) 12:37, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh good lord... I never said such a thing. You're reading what you want into what was said in order to perpetuate an "I'm the victim" status. If you "don't feel comfortable" collaborating with people who don't share your views, then you're in the wrong place. I NEVER said that ANYONE here or the sources' authors were "akin to white supremacists" nor did I imply that. You are taking illustrations and descriptions to absolutely absurd, illogical conclusions. I request you retract your remarks/accusations. Buffs (talk) 14:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

This topic refers to the idea and those who hold it as fringe. You use the term multiple times including when you say,"but a WP:FRINGE group (organized white supremacists fall in this category as do the Black Panthers)." I am more than happy to collaborate with individuals of different views. They are necessary for a balanced pedia. I do take exception to being compared, which you do and I quoted you, to white supremacists. I am not playing victim simply because I am not comfortable interacting with you and I will not redact my words.Indigenous girl (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I was trying to demonstrate that fringe groups cover the WHOLE political spectrum from left to right (ergo "WS and BP"). There was no intent to compare you, or Native Americans as a whole, to these groups, but that Fringe opinions/ideas exist everywhere. Buffs (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I realize I'm beating the proverbial dead horse but honestly, equating a woman (Ruth Hopkins) who was respected enough by her community to have been made a tribal judge, who is also a respected attorney on indigenous rights and treaty law and a well regarded journalist and author to a flat earther is really bizarre.Indigenous girl (talk) 14:03, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I NEVER equated the views of Ruth Hopkins or her credibility to flat earthers or white supremacists. I was pointing out the logical error/faulty justification of the statement "For goodness sake, people have written whole books on the topic". The fact that people have written books about a topic does not mean the premise of chapters or whole books are accurate. Reductio ad absurdum seems to be the method/level of "logical reasoning" that's prevailing here. I respectfully request you retract your remarks. Buffs (talk) 14:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

ASW linked to Ruth Hopkins book. You said, immediately afterwards,""Whole books" are written about the Flat Earth movement too, but that doesn't make it widespread or accurate."Indigenous girl (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

ASW pointed out Ruth Hopkins book and said "whole books have been written on the subject". My point is that the fact that a book has been written doesn't necessarily make the content accurate, ergo, the statement "whole books have been written on the subject" doesn't actually lend any credence to the argument. It was criticism of the logic, not the content. It has nothing to do with Ruth Hopkins or even the content of her book. It was a comment on the logical fallacy used. At this point, you're just wasting time/effort if you can't understand that. Buffs (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

The only failures of logic are yours. You made a complete non sequitur statement on flat earthers after I correctly pointed out with evidence pointing to Ruth Hopkins and ABC-CLIO that a topic is widely covered, even in whole books. That was after I had already introduced multiple other sources showing wide coverage. Your arguments are filled with faulty logic. There is no basis in logic or fact whatsoever for your lumping Keene or Hopkins with writing inaccuracies, akin to flat earth or white supremacists. Just because you don't like their ideas does not mean you get to wildly accuse these living authors or their publishers. Alanscottwalker (talk) 07:48, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

You stated the topic was widely covered and I took your evidence to support that statement to task ("For goodness sake, people have written whole books on the topic") as a poorly formed rationale. Many people have written whole books on absurd topics and to use that as justification is likewise absurd. My criticism is that your logic is flawed. So, let's just take that out. Your previous statement would stand on its own, if you provided some examples.

While we're at it, if the opinion is so widely held, why are we citing a personal blog? Wikipedia is based on reliable third-party sources. While I feel these opinions stem from a wider political and highly partisan viewpoint, that doesn't make them unnotable. My original argument in this thread is that evidence is not presented that it's a widely felt belief. Prior to this discussion, the sources used were ONE person's beliefs, and interview/news article in a college paper about that person, a book whose reference doesn't address the statement, and a personal blog. If such an opinion is widespread, it is very poorly sourced; as such, it's presented as a WP:FRINGE opinion. If it is a widespread opinion (even a highly partisan or political opinion or one I/others disagree/agree with), it should be easy to document with references. If it isn't a fringe opinion, surely we can do better than these given sources. 15:57, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Again, your arguments are plainly illogical. The book from a mainstream publisher which is evidence of wide interest, itself, was presented, after a number of other RS on the same topic, also showing it is widely held. As for the rest, we use RS other RS use, and they use Keene because she is a valued expert, and despite your entirely empty and attacking statements against her for which you have no basis in fact nor logic, she should be so used. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

"The book from a mainstream publisher which is evidence of wide interest, itself, was presented, after a number of other RS on the same topic, also showing it is widely held." So, let's use that reference instead of a blog. I have no issue with that. Buffs (talk) 20:22, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Sure, we can use it in addition. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:26, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

That's not what I'm agreeing to here. Why do we need to insist on adding a duplicate reference for the same material from a personal blog when there's no need to do so? Buffs (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

I've added these 5 references. This addresses my concerns in this article. Buffs (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

What are people's thoughts on the reliability of World Population Review as a source for population statistics? I don't have any particular reason to doubt anything I've seen sourced to the site, but I haven't been able to find information on what sources the site uses, and all the "About" page says is this. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

• The footer on World Population Review's home page cites the United Nations's World Population Prospects 2017 data set as its source. The Projections of population growth article also cites the UN data set. I would use the UN data set and not World Population Review, which is just a derivative of the original source. — Newslinger talk 08:10, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

That's true for the homepage, but take a page such as this, which is being used as a source for Berbera. It's unclear where the data on that page is coming from (Geonames is listed as a source, but clicking through to the link doesn't reveal any population data, so I think it's just being used for place names). Cordless Larry (talk) 08:16, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

GeoNames's Somalia section appears to match the data presented on World Population Review. The largest cities page has the same population counts and the same latitudes/longitudes as World Population Review's "Population of Cities in Somalia (2019)". The text on World Population Review appears to be unsourced research mixed with commentary derived from the data. I would consider the unsourced research generally unreliable as a self-published source, while the data should be cited to GeoNames (the original source). — Newslinger talk 08:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Newslinger. You're doing a much better job of finding things today than me! Now I suppose the question is whether Geonames is reliable. They do publish a list of data sources, which is good, although I'm slightly concerned to see Wikidata listed there. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:32, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

No problem! Some additional research reveals that the data on GeoNames can be edited by the public, which makes it generally unreliable as a collection of user-generated content. This was previously discussed at "GeoNames" and "World Gazetteer". The latter discussion mentions a "core database" that is not subject to public contributions, but I don't know how to distinguish between "core" and user-generated content on the GeoNames website. Clicking on the pencil icon at the bottom of the page for Berbera shows an editing interface. ​— Newslinger talk 08:39, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for investigating. I've removed the figure from the article concerned. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:44, 31 March 2019 (UTC)