Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy XIII/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 03:12, 23 August 2011 [1].

Final Fantasy XIII

Nominator(s): Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:03, 1 August 2011 (UTC), Pres N 20:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is currently a good article. This article has failed an FA nomination once, but I am doing this again with PresN because we feel that this article is in top condition for FA status. Thanks, Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:03, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Co-nom here! In the last FAC a few months ago, we got some good supports and kind words, but the thing was scuppered as we weren't using the Ultimania books for the game as sources, which contained Japanese interviews relating to the development. Since then, I've spent dozens and dozens of hours semi-manually ocr-ing and translating the text, and they're now extensively used as sources, expanding the development section in size. Everything else should be in roughly the same shape as the previous FAC (I did a manual check on that), and we should be good to go for take 2! --Pres N 20:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC) Oh right, I'm also in the Wikicup, if you care. --Pres N 21:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, no comment on source comprehensiveness. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FN 1: pages? Also, English-language sources don't need their language specified

Ref has been removed; all Final Fantasy articles just got reverted to just list Square Enix in the infobox, rather than the specific team. --Pres N 20:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All foreign-language sources should be identified as such

Done. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FN 106: pages?

Done. --Pres N 22:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FN 116: missing info?

Famitsu doesn't list authors for reader polls, and I can't get the page number as the links to the scans of that issue have died. --Pres N 20:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What makes this a high-quality reliable source? This? This? This? This? This? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Videogamer.com - Owned by Pro-G Media. Provides content for Virgin Media.[2] Full-time staff includes industry veterans.[3][4] Wesley Yin-Poole, the author of that piece, is a full-time writer for the site and has previously written for the RS Eurogamer.
Square Enix Music Online - Provides dozens and dozens of interviews with game composers, as well has hundreds of album reviews. Their news reports have been picked up by various reliable sources (Kotaku 1, Kotaku 2, Joystiq, Edge).
OnlineWelten and Mundogamers- replaced with VG247 - Listed as the 3rd best gaming blog by CNET, who praised them saying "the writing is excellent, and it covers all the important news with a twist of humour."[5] The site won the Game Media Awards 2009's Best Blog Award [6] and was nominated once again in the category in 2010.[7] The site was co-founded by Patrick Garett and Eurogamer (which is a reliable source). Patrick Garett won at the Games Media Awards 2009, Best Specialist Writer, Online and Games Media Legend.[8] In addition he had previously worked with Eurogamer, GamesIndustry.biz, CVG, Xbox World and others as a journalist, editor and publisher. [9] Other site staff include Stephany Nunneley who was a former Gaming Today (on FileFront) writer and 1UP.com contributor,[10] As well as Nathan Grayson who has written articles for Maximum PC and The Escapist. [11]
Siliconera - used as a source by 1UP.com1 1UP.com2 1UP.com3, Kotaku, Shack News1 Shack News2, Eurogamer, Arstechnica. I had something else written down about them, but I can't find it right now.
--Pres N 21:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media Review - File:Final Fantasy XIII battle.png isn't a good illustration of what it's trying to illustrate. I played this game, so I know what to be looking for in that screenshot, and it's not there. The segmented bars are not displayed in this shot, and they really should be. That or the paradigm shift drop down should be open. For the sake of discussion, despite the size issues, I find both of the previous versions of the image under this name show off the combat featured better, although both are visually cluttered, and therefore I'd look elsewhere for a new version. Additionally, the images are not actually loading on the site listed as the source, which is mildly problematic. Everything else checks out. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I found an image on the official site that has the battle UI better displayed. I also upgraded the rationale while I was at it. --Pres N 22:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good choice, that image is much better than the one that we started with. I resized the new image and slapped a furd template on it (which will call an admin to clean out the old versions in 7 days). Go team. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What ho, I'm an administrator! Consider the old versions deleted. --Pres N 03:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Still don't know why "easy" mode for the international release you don't find out about in gameplay section where one would expect gameplay info like that to be. Gameplay isn't about 1 specific release and its not like the International version is a remake getting its own section. It's just a different version of the same game (like a US version vs. Japanese). When that happens for other games, all the info is listed in gameplay and explained that it may only appear in certain versions.

Done. --Pres N 18:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It comes with a bonus booklet...an epilogue chapter titled Final Fantasy XIII Episode I" - is the epilogue part of the booklet or part of the game. The sentence doesn't make it clear.

Changed "epilogue chapter" to "short story epilogue". --Pres N 18:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think the story's reception should be split apart as it takes up huge chunk of the reception. The reception on the story alone constitutes almost half of it.陣内 _Jinnai 23:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By story I assume you don't mean the plot, but mean the linearity? While the reception section is long, that was the main criticism, so in effect I'd be spliting the reception section into two subsection- praise and criticism. Everything else is a paragraph or less. That's fine, but I've never seen any other VG articles do it, so I want to make sure that's what you meant- add a subsection split for the last three paragraphs before "Legacy". --Pres N 18:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, but the criticism is so concentrated and got a detailed response from the developers. Also most other VG reception tends to be either decidedly pro, anti or unclear enough that one single aspect doesn't get so much detailed criticism or praise or its too short to split out. I know VG articles tend not to have subsections for reviews, but given the length and the way its handled already it would be beneficial; after all its not like there are any FA VG articles that had such specific criticisms and responses (defense) by the developers.陣内 _Jinnai 00:19, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, done. --Pres N 18:29, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I'm impressed with the quality of work in this article. Great job guys; my only suggestion is too bunch up some awkward paragraphing in reception areas, so its not so spread out. Aside from that, it reads pretty well.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 10:08, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Use the "deadurl = no" parameter of the various citation templates if you have archive the ref but the original is still active. –Drilnoth (T/C) 00:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Pres N 23:58, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have not played the game (in fact, any of FF games), so this review will be your "general reader". — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 09:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The game introduced a few innovations to the series" -- this assumes the reader is familiar with what are the features of the previous games. Surely, mentioning the game is 3rd person, uses ATB, and such is more important than new features.
"As of May 2010, the game sold 5.5 million copies worldwide." -- may be better "has sold" verb tense.
"Each action requires a specific number of slots on the ATB bar" -- action? Is the referring to "Under this system, the player selects a command from the menus, such as Attack, Magic, and Item."? It should be consistent, especially since it says "Actions cannot be performed outside of battle".
"When enemies are struck by attacks or spells their chain counter increases." - first mention of "chain counter" without explaining what it is. I can sort of infer this from the next 3 sentences, but the paragraph should start by introducing it properly, for example. "Each enemy has a [what?] called chain counter, which increases as the player characters attack them." I cannot really give a good example, as I'm not sure what it is, except that it is some specialized "combo bar".
"These summoned creatures include" -- "summoned creatures" was linked in lead, but is not here.
"Square moved the game to the PlayStation 3" -- Square? Is it OK to refer to a company by half-name? Also, as the first mention since lead, it should be wikilinked.
"were more Asian inspired" -- inspired by Asians? Like big manga/anime swords and such? Asian culture/appearance/film/terrain? Or is this so broad, it's just easier to omit that?
" the theme song for the Japanese version of the game, "Kimi ga Iru Kara" (君がいるから?, "Because You're Here"), in 2009." -- italics on "Kimi ga Iru Kara" unnecessary?
"Square Enix published three Ultimania books" -- should mention this is a guide book, at least that's what the link says.
"sold in excess of one million" -- "over one million"? Simple English.
" and had sold 1.7 million copies in Japan at the end of 2009." -- "by the end" is probably better.
"As of May 18, 2010, Final Fantasy XIII had shipped 5.5 million copies worldwide." - is this the most current sales info available?
"Reviewers felt that the characters worked well together,[102][98]" - ref order
"an issue which many felt was compounded by the large reduction of towns and interaction with non-player characters." -- NPC is linked here but not before at "Nomura did not take an involved role in the creation of the non-playable characters."
Not sure if above comments are pre or post fixes, but to me reception paragraphs seem fine.
References seem fine and well-formatted, I may check in detail some time.
Note that I skipped Plot section, since I can't judge the accuracy and undue weight anyway, and prose seems fine. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 09:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing! As a courtesy to the delegates, not responding inline. Assume everything is "done", except for: the Ultimania's weren't guide books, these were art and development information books, that article is wrong; May 2010 is the latest sales figures we have; I had not added Jinnai's section break when you wrote this. --Pres N 18:29, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 07:35, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support / Comments.

From the lede: "The third-person game includes a fast-paced combat mechanic," - Not sure where you were going with this, but this sounds really bizarre. It doesn't seem natural to mention third-person here as a random extra adjective, and a fast-paced mechanic? Would tentatively prefer to omit third-person from the lede (or else include it in a sentence on graphics, not gameplay) and say either "The game includes fast-paced combat" or "The game includes combat mechanics such as X, Y, and Z." Saying it includes a mechanic is like a car saying it has a feature; you want to know what exactly it is.
Not sure I agree with Hellknowz above on "Kimi ga Iru Kara". My understanding is that while song titles receive quotes, foreign words receive italics (MOS:Ety), so this should get both. Wikipedia is tremendously inconsistent on this so it's probably fine either way - a quick check of, say, Category:Songs of the French Revolution shows a 2:2 split ("La Marseillaise" just has quotes, La Carmagnole has italics... though it should probably have quotes too, etc.).

Well, we italicize albums but not singles/songs, which I figure should take precedent over italicizing foreign words (which I also find strange, anyways). --Pres N 21:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nit: "The Eidolons play a major role in the game's storyline.[13]" While I won't deny they play a role, I don't think I would call it a "major" role. And this statement is referenced to a preview article of FF13 anyway. I'm sure you can probably find a review post-release that said the same thing, but there are also reviews that say the Eidolons only play a minor role, too. It'd probably be better just to take this sentence out.
Maybe a nit: "Final Fantasy XIII is set within the world of Gran Pulse. Central to the story is Cocoon..." I don't deny that this is probably true according to Ultimania and other outside-game sources, but in-game, Pulse and Cocoon are treated as basically separate worlds until the ending. Certainly Cocoon's citizens don't consider themselves part of Pulse, and from what little we know about Pulse, they didn't like Cocoonites and probably didn't consider Cocoon part of Pulse either. The reason I say "maybe a nit" is that I have no idea how to rephrase this so as to express "the truth is that Cocoon is part of Pulse, sort of, but none of the characters acknowledge this and would react with horror to such a claim" without getting bogged down in too much detail.

I'm going to leave it; given that it's the term for both the world/game universe and for the surface of the world, trying to explain that Cocoon ignores one of the definitions of the word in-game is way too technical, I think. --Pres N 21:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, this was more a "nice to have" if someone could see a better phrasing, but it's acceptable as is. SnowFire (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The two worlds are controlled by fal'Cie (pronounced /fælˈsiː/), mechanical beings with godlike power, each based around a crystal and created by a god-like figure called the Maker.[7]" The linked IGN ref doesn't seem to talk about this at all. Notably, where's this "mechanical" thing coming from? I don't recall that from the game at all. As for the Maker... can this be referenced to an Ultimania or something, if the IGN ref isn't there? There's only one character in-game who says anything about the Maker (Barthandelus), and he's crazy and may qualify as an unreliable source. (Again, it's probably true, but it's not something that can just be referenced to the game itself easily.) In fact, I'd be tempted to tone down the information about the Maker some, as the Maker never actually does anything in FF13 and nobody aside from Barthendalus talks about them - it's not like there's a religion out there worshiping the Maker in the setting. (This may change in FF13-2? Like I said, if there's Ultimania stuff on this, then keep it there, I guess.)

Dropped the stuff about the Maker, it's not that important- it's in the Ultimania, but (one of my annoyances with the game) it's never explicitly mentioned in the game itself- there's this obliquely referenced backstory about a god or gods who got fed up with the fal'Cie/humans and left after one of them created Cocoon, but it's all reading between the lines of made up myths/poems. The Ultimania just covers the mechanical/crystal thing in that sentence, which isn't important. If FF13-2 actually explicitly states anything, I guess it can be readded. --Pres N 21:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Story section: I made a few minor changes - assassinate -> kill, for example, assassinate is usually reserved for killing political leaders and the like. Feel free to adjust further or ask if something I changed doesn't make sense. My main frustration - which I don't think can be fixed - is that in-game, there's a big difference between Cocoon l'Cie / fal'Cie and Pulse l'Cie / fal'Cie, and there really isn't time to go into that in four paragraphs, so the Sazh / Dajh / Vanille subplot reads incoherently to a casual reader. But fixing that would bloat the section too much, so meh. (And the last third of the game is going to read a bit incoherently no matter what, but the article does a solid attempt, so nicely done.)
'The game's villains were intended by Kitase to have "their own motivations and beliefs of what their actions are" and having their own way of thinking.' I think something get lost in translation here. As written, this sentence doesn't really add anything, so I'd probably be in favor of removing it, as I have no idea what Kitase was trying to say here.

A mucky translation, yes, but he was trying to say that they were written as having goals and beliefs about the world rather than just as "evil". --Pres N 21:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It reads better now. SnowFire (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, very nicely done, so support as noted above. SnowFire (talk) 06:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done, replied inline to a few of them to clarify. --Pres N 21:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.