Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Shankbone: Difference between revisions

David Shankbone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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This article uses spurious sourcing (namely the subject's blog, various other blogs, and Wikinews) to create a piece that appears to be a valid article, yet really isn't. It should be noted that the subject of the article has an account on Wikipedia (User:David Shankbone). While there are news references to the subject, there isn't sufficient coverage to merit inclusion. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Pure navel gazing; we're not David's personal PR operation, and if he were writing for any site other than Wikipedia this would have been A7'd. (For some perspective, that "major interview" averages 11 views a day.) We already went through this with David Gerard, who with all due respect is considerably more notable than his namesake Shankbone. – iridescent 22:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• How often the article is viewed or not doesn't really matter. There are enough reliable sources to satisfy policy. Debate on whether or not Shankbone is a good journalist or widely-read can rage behind other doors. Master of Puppets 03:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I find the claim that "he became the first citizen journalist to interview a sitting head of state" to be enough to meet WP:BIO. ("The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field"). Additionally, the Columbia Journalism Review piece indicates there is verifiability. Prodego ^talk 22:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before we go keeping this article over that pretty substantial claim, considering it is the basis of the notability argument, could you actually find a source for it? It sounds plausible but unlikely to me without a reference, and might just be a misunderstanding of the line "its reporter was the first Wikinews staffer to interview a head of state" from the InformationWeek article. (That would be a considerably weaker claim.) Dominic·t 23:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • If that claim is not true, then that drastically changes the notability of Shankbone. I would say that my 'keep' is dependent on that claim in fact. Prodego ^talk 23:51, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What exactly is a "citizen journalist" and how is it defined in any regard different than a standard journalist? (this would require a citation actually using the term and in a manner that is applicable for him being the "first", plus a citation verifying it, each independent sources that are reliable. Then you would need to prove that citizen journalist is a real term, as the page seems to suffer from WP:NEO and is promoting something as opposed to being encyclopedic) And, regardless, why would it matter? Furthermore, who would even define it, especially since he is an amateur journalist or a professional journalist (its an either or), and both have interviewed heads of states, so, I don't see the assertion really standing. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not convinced on this - I would want to see appropriate verifiability. In Australia, I remember school children interviewing the Prime Minister of the day following journalism competitions. While some might claim that's not journalism per se, it's no more or less "journalistic" than anything else. Achromatic (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've left a note on the author of the article's talk page regarding that statement - hopefully he will promptly respond and clarify the strength of that statement. Prodego ^talk 02:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has now been changed, per discussion on the talk page. He was the first WikiNews citizen journalist to have interviewed a sitting head of state, and this is what InformationWeek actually stated in their sub-title and lede section - Alison ^❤ 08:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per me. Prodego ^talk 17:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The CJR piece, interview in the Brooklyn Rail, and the article in Jewish Week support notability, and the Information Week article says that Israeli newspaper El Haaretz covered Shankbone's visit and Wikinews' coverage stemming from the visit. I've no interest in promotional articles, but minus the puffery I think there's enough here to satisfy WP:BIO. JNW (talk) 22:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Prodego, pending confirmation of basis. While I realize we should guard against navel gazing, if one of our own becomes notable, we should not flinch from a biography on that individual. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - reads like a puff piece. If this is kept it needs some rebalancing I think. Not yet decided about whether he's notable enough, like Prodego I'd like that source verified. ++Lar: t/c 00:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • NOTE: !voted below (default to delete, but don't double count it please. :) ) ++Lar: t/c 03:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - all sources are minimal at best and fails the threshold for "significant coverage". Clearly non-notable individual. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

CJR being minimal? A full article about him specifically being not "significant coverage"? DGG ( talk ) 04:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Ottava Rima; if the claim Prodego emphasized is proven to be true, this may require revisiting. Until then, this individual is not sufficiently noteworthy. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Without discovering the details, I have learned that the subject is controversial here, and I acknowledge the danger of encouraging articles about figures "notable" for Wikipedian reasons. However, I agree with Prodego re the citizen journalist, and even if all the Wikipedia-related material were removed from the article (I don't think it should be) the subject would still be marginally notable. Johnuniq (talk) 00:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Navel-gazing, dubious notability. Achromatic (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Until flagged revisions are implemented on BLPs on marginally notable subjects they should be deleted. Cla68 (talk) 02:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The Columbia Journalism Review and InformationWeek coverage would seem to indicate to me that verifiability has been satisfied. I'm not convinced he's (yet) the Barbara Walters of citizen journalism, but, nevertheless, I think the pieces illustrate that our requirements for notability have been met. user:J aka justen (talk) 02:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I'm not convinced about the references and, per Prodego, would like to see that reference. We've had quite a few notable editors here in the past - many who have their own articles (User:Jokestress comes to mind) - but notability via Wikipedia leaves me twitchy indeed. Outside WP, David, who's an excellent yet amateur photographer, doesn't seem to have established the required notability. Also, the article needs serious editing for balance and neutrality. Further-urthermore, it'll also serve as the perfect focus for BLP-related attacks from David's enemies, of which he seems to have a few. I've already move-protected it as I await the inevitable. In short, NN, somewhat dubiously-referenced, currently reads as a puff-piece and is a BLP disaster waiting to happen. I'm no particular fan of David Shankbone (David Miller seems much nicer. Seriously), but I don't want to see him suffering the kind of BLP-related attacks that others have had to deal with here - Alison ^❤ 02:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The ample reliable and verifiable sources are far from "spurious" and included the in-depth coverage that satisfies the Wikipedia notability standard. Alansohn (talk) 03:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• KeepDelete The sources don't address the subject in substantial detail, so this doesn't meet WP:N. All we have is a pile of trivia. He acts like a journalist and gets a lot of interviews -- so do thousands of other people who get published. Same goes for photographs. Even the Columbia Journalism Review article, which might have substantial coverage of him, is used for trivia. There doesn't seem to be any source out there that gives us the depth of coverage needed for an article. JohnWBarber (talk) 04:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• John, the Columbia article is actually quite detailed. You can read it here. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 14:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• You're absolutely right, it is detailed, and I have to change my vote. I still don't think this will be good for the subject, but I think this is marginal enough that he can get it deleted if he finds it a burden. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete at this time further comment now added below per Prodego - yes that's right per Prodego; and certainly if we can't get solid reliable sources that prove for example that David is the first citizen journalist to interview a sitting head of state. Indeed this addition sums up the general puffery of the piece insofar that it claims something that is probably impossible to verify - after all citizen journalists (defined in the article as members of the public "playing an active role in the process of collecting, reporting, analyzing and disseminating news and information) have been around for decades and longer. Is David the first to have interviewed a head of state? If yes well call me back here but until then this article should be deleted.--VirtualSteve ^{need admin support?} 05:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alison's notification of a change to the "first citizen journalist" is noted and I am left still with the feeling that delete is the appropriate response here - else it appears wikipedia becomes its own reference. Thanks.--VirtualSteve ^{need admin support?} 09:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Sources aren't sufficient to meet WP:BIO Nick-D (talk) 07:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I was waiting for the news on the "first citizen journalist" bit, now that that has been resolved it does not show sufficient notability to balance out the risk Alison discusses above. The Columbia Journalism Review articles states "though Miller has managed interviews with a few high -profile subjects like Peres, he's relatively unknown outside the Wiki community", so even they don't feel he is particularly notable. Kevin (talk) 09:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• That last statement isn't thattrue. It was an error the reporter blogged about and corrected. He wrote that he used a bad tool. About that first citizen journalist to interview a head of state I wrote: of course I don't mean school kids doing things for their high school paper, which makes a good photo op for a politician. What I meant was here was a guy who works as a paralegal, yet does all this stuff for free on this site in his spare time. He goes to Israel with Businesweek, Salon, and other big media sites - who scores the huge interview? The citizen journalist from Wikinews. I thought the InformationWeek and CJR articles made that clear, but I guess it's kind of SYN. He's the first citizen journalist to interview a head of state, and you won't find anyone else that fits that bill. He took vacation time from his job. So perhaps a citation doesn't exist, but neither does another example of anything like that. It was all volunteer, and it was a scoop for Wikinews, where he's accredited. --Huckandraz (talk) 02:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The blog you linked seems to correct something other than the part I quoted, and he didn't retract the part about Shankbone being "relatively unknown". Kevin (talk) 02:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reporter offered an opinion, and then gave his evidence. The full quote is "Although Miller has managed interviews with a few high-profile subjects like Peres, he's relatively unknown outside the Wiki community. Some of his pieces have page views in the single digits." What the correction addressed was that the hypothesis, "He's unknown" is because "his articles have single digits". Obviously, if nobody read them, nobody knows him. The reporter corrected that the evidence to support that statement was wrong, and therefore so was the theory it was used to support. It's the only evidence he gives. Otherwise, you have all three major dailies in Israel, Jewish Week, InformationWeek and the CJR doing an in depth profile about somebody that nobody in journalism has ever heard of? The reporter and subject went out of the way to correct the record. --Huckandraz (talk) 03:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Although my duck test sniffer tells me this was created as a way to harass him there does seem to be plenty here to weave together a good article despite what seems contrary motivations. That his work is acknowledged as a Wikipedian is documented independent of us so would seem to pass that bar as well. At worst this, very new, article needs rigorous clean-up to ensure accuracy and that is already happening. Whatever the motivations the article is here now and should be given a chance to develop. They happened to do this work here but it is written about elsewhere. -- Banjeboi 10:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, obviously. Puff piece probably created by subject or an associate.67.160.100.233 (talk) 11:32, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. To have a profile in the Columbia Journalism Review seems to establish notability in and of itself, because it's significant coverage in a reliable source, which is what Wikipedia:Notability requires. In addition, there are the Haaretz and Information Week articles that are actually about him, not just containing passing reference to him; his work being used by The New York Times and Encylopaedia Britannica; and the comic strip based on his work in Time Out. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 13:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whoa, Slim, I'm going to stop you right there. His work is "used by the Encylopaedia Britannica" in the sense that my work is "used by Wikipedia"; he happens to have uploaded some photos to the user-editable section of the E.B., and anyone else could do the same. If "used by the Encylopaedia Britannica" in this context is grounds for an article, then I'll get writing on LaraLove and Realist2 on the basis of their Maynard James Keenan and Michael Jackson Wikipedia articles being ripped off borrowed by the BBC. – iridescent 13:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Okay, if that's an open-source version of EB, I take that bit back. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 14:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• The Guardian has also used his work. [1] SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 17:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• • • Actually the article is wonkily constructed a bit - he did an art project of 4000+ images and freely licensed them. Those were in turn used in many places including Wikipedia articles, books, etc etc. Those are attributed images which would not seem to be directly comparable to group efforted text, which we have no expectation of attribution, which is then "borrowed". -- Banjeboi 13:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's incorrect to say the Haaretz and Information Week articles are about him. They barely tell us anything at all about him. Haaretz quotes his opinions and gives us a fact or two about him. Information Week has nothing to say about him other than that he got the interview with Perez. I can't read the Columbia Journalism Review article, but the article doesn't use it for more than a bit of trivial information, so I doubt there's any more to it than the others. This is a collection of trivial coverage from sources, each of which provide a teensy bit of information. If they all added up to a rounded picture of him, then fine, we could consider him "notable". But even with all those sources cited, the article gets us nowhere near giving us the coverage we'd want in a Wikipedia article, and it's not as if we can assume there's more out there somewhere. We have AfDs so that we don't have junky articles in the encyclopedia. If he is notable, he's only marginally notable, but he's more than just marginally controversial on Wikipedia, so for this marginally "notable" person we'd have editors and administrators wasting time patrolling the article, reverting vandals, arguing with his enemies. It isn't good for David Miller, or for administrators and editors here, and it isn't good for readers to get such a poor article that has little prospect of ever getting better. It's bad all around. JohnWBarber (talk) 13:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I had to change my mind. The Columbia Journalism Review article is substantial coverage. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete fails WP:BIO, full of puff. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Almost every journalist to ever interview a head of state has been a "citizen journalist" (and maybe all of them -- though a stateless hack or two is possible). As for "amateur journalists" interviewing heads of state -- that has been happening for at least 100 years. Whoever the first amatuer (both as in "unpaid" and as in "withough schooling or expertise in the field") hack to interview a leader was, I guess receives a trivia footnote, but probably isn't notable either. `Now, some interviews are notable in and of themselves and might reflect upon the notability of the interviewer (Frost-Nixon). But I see no evidence of this fellow ever breaking a major story or otherwise having done something journalistically that might have generated notability (and there are no reliable sources on this, likewise). Nothing of interest in the Peres interview, surely. Accepting a paid junket from the Israeli (or any other) government is a firing offense at old media (and if it's true that salon tolerates that bullshit, i'm embarressed for them) and if you interview the Prime Minister while on the government payroll that isn't considered journalism, it's considered PR. To wrap up: No reliable sources estabslish notability for this living person or cover him in sufficient depth to allow for independent verification of this articles claims.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Iridescent, Alison, and others. Marginally notable BLP. GlassCobra 14:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I don't know, there seems to be enough reilable sources to piece together a good article out of this one. Good one for the Rescue Squad...--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 14:19, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, the sources don't establish notability. Everyking (talk) 14:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - The CJR piece is 1843 words long and the entire article covers Shankbone in depth on his photography and interviews, which I believe refutes the trivial claim, since it is clearly more than "significant coverage", per the WP:NOTABILITY guideline. Columbia Journalism Review—the prestigious, influential, and prominent professional journalism review from Columbia University's J-School—is clearly a reliable source. The article is behind a paywall at CJR, but can be read in full here. — Becksguy (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for finding that and posting the link. You changed my vote to Keep. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The Brooklyn Rail article or the Columbia Journalism Review article alone, along with some supporting sources, are enough to establish notability. There's not much point in debating what the specific claims to notability are; the important thing is that he was regarded by multiple independent secondary sources as being worthy of an in-depth profile. We shouldn't apply different standards to Wikipedians than to non-Wikipedians. For a more detailed discussion on my views on the topic, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Nimo (2nd nomination). (For whatever it's worth, David is a former client and a close friend of mine, but my opinions are entirely my own.) -Pete (talk) 15:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Notablity requires more than cursory mentions, which the sources you list only provide such. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Per John Barber above, at least one of the mentions appears to be anything but cursory. user:J aka justen (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Notability not established. David may be a decent enough hobby journalist and photographer, but that's all he is GTD 15:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep He was featured in Wikinews [2], there a picture of him shaking hands with the president of Israel. There are plenty of mentions of him in the news, references to reliable sources already in the article. Dream Focus 17:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Um, being mentioned in another Wikimedia project does not in any way convey notability. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 17:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Unless that mention shows you shaking hands with the president of another country, you a notable enough reporter to fly over there and meet with the guy. And as I said, he was mentioned in other news sources. Dream Focus 22:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Again, that's an unfair assumption. See citizen journalism. I saw the president of the U.S. once, am I notable? –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• If you interviewed him and millions of people read about it, then yes, that would make you notable. Dream Focus 23:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC) [reply]

• Millions of people read about it? To quote a phrase popular here - "citation needed". Achromatic (talk) 05:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• If you were invited by another country to be a citizen journalist it sure would seem exceptional, and then add interviewing (not seeing) the president by granted interview which itself was reported on by independent media. Yea, it might, or at least suggest this is an exceptional situation. -- Banjeboi 00:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Being mentioned in a few news articles isn't the same as those articles being entirely about you. And even the ones that are more substantial, like CJR, appear to be more about the phenomena of citizen journalism and how Shankbone is an example of it, than about him himself. The rest of the blog and wikinews sources are not an indication of notability. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Per sufficient references. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - he is the subject of multiple articles in Columbia Journalism Review and other reliable media; notable (if amateur) journalist. Disclosure: I read some of these articles on my own. Bearian (talk) 21:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as lacking substantial coverage, a marginal BLP. Grsz¹¹ 22:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep on the basis of the CJR article, a feature primarily about him. If he were not a Wikipedian, that source for notability would have been sufficient & this article would probably never have been questioned. The article needs some editing, but that's another matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)
• Keep per justen, JNW, and the guy right above me who doesn't have a name attached to his comment. There seems to be some interesting bits in the article that we are being let know of. Can someone point me to the policy that this article is coming up against? Varks Spira (talk) 01:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete The Columbia Journalism Review defines him as being below non-notable in his field: "Although Miller has managed interviews with a few high-profile subjects like Peres, he's relatively unknown outside the Wiki community. Some of his pieces have page views in the single digits." Warrah (talk) 02:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• weak keep A lot of the arguments being used here for deletion are questionable. For example the claim that because his notability extends from Wikipedia we should have a higher bar and not have "navel-gazing" isn't valid. Although we need to be especially careful for matters that related to Wikpedia, the bar for Wikipedia related material should be identical. Also, the claim that being described as "relatively unknown" in a major reliable source that discusses you in detail makes you not-notable misses the entire notion of what WP:N relies on, coverage. If (hypothetically) soemthing was covered extensively as the least known example of an X, it would make it a notable X. These weak arguments need to be disregarded. That said, my keep is only weak because while I think he meets the notability criteria, I'm not completely convinced of that. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep While I would certainly not trust Wikinews as any sort of reliable source, the individual has received coverage in numerous reliable sources outside the Wikirealm for his work as a journalist, thus meeting the criteria set by WP:GNG. And as interesting as it might be that one reliable source might define him as non-notable in his field, Wikipedia does not use their standards. We use our own... and it is the extensive coverage of him (despite their definition) that specifically makes him notable per Wikipedia's guidelines. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • With all due respect, Wikinews has extensive reviewing and articles once completed and extensively reviewed are permanently protected. Wikinews is indeed cited on a variety of Wikipedia pages. (COI disclaimer, I'm a Wikinews admin) JoshuaZ (talk) 04:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Aplogies JoshuaZ, as no disrespect was intended. My first sentence was meant to be read with irony. As even the nominator discredits the article because of its use of Wikinews, I wished to underscore that the man's notability can be found through his coverage in numerous sources outside of the Foundation's children. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 04:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's ridiculous that we're citing "Wikinews" at all. That is only one of the many source problems with this article - to support several assertions, it cites his own blog, for example.67.160.100.233 (talk) 10:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm a sysop at Wikinews as well, and I know that, like the vast majority of all wikis, it is not considered a reliable source suitable for use as a citation within encyclopedic articles, nor does it help to establish notability. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 13:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am really going to have to take you to task on that issue of suitability for citation Julian. [And, yes, for those not unfortunate enough to have run up against me in a irked frame of mind before, I'm a Wikinews sysop and bureaucrat]. For all I care about the notability argument everyone can resort to lobbing items at each other about it over the inclusionist/deletionist divide. But, you are dismissing a great deal of effort applied to make Wikinews citable. I have taken an active part in working towards that, and you give the impression of casually lumping in the considerable effort some make to carry out original reporting with synthesis articles. Not for a moment would I argue that the 'average' synthesis article from multiple mainstream sources should be cited on Wikipedia - in that case the sources the article is synthesised from should be cited - a principle I encourage Wikinewsies to reciprocate - don't cite Wikipedia. But let me give you a specific example, Tony Benn. One I can speak of because I carried out the original reporting, I interviewed Tony Benn. I published an article on Wikinews, and from that made a small change to his article. Conflict of interest aside, this discussion prompted me to look for that - and it's gone. Casual inspection of the history to see what happened? I would rather not say what I think of POV-ish edits prior to it's removal, but if you're telling me that an interview, conducted by telephone, with the subject's widely-known voice quite clear, and made publicly available on Commons doesn't make some Wikinews content credible then... well... you are calling me and everyone else on Wikinews fantasists or fabricators. So Julian, and for the benefit of everyone else I've uninvitedly inflicted this rant on, before you dismiss Wikinews as unciteable or not credible, justify your argument instead of using it as a glib put-down. There's plenty of instances of those prized 'credible' sources fabricating items, and making no effort to prove they've done the work. --Brian McNeil /^talk 01:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This is a borderline case that merits very, very careful consideration (obviously). It irks me personally that we should have any biography of a Wikipedian who is primary notable for their work on the site, and I would hate setting a precedent for this kind of thing. But if this were any other subject under the sun, I would resoundingly say keep based on sources such as the interviews and the use of his photography by several major publications. Those making comments about self-promotion by David are clearly assuming bad faith. Anyone who's been the subject of a Wikipedia bio will tell you it's often a thorn in their side. Also note that the David Gerard case is no way a mandate on the issue, especially considering it was closed early and revolved around a disambig page to boot. All these factors, but first and foremost the sourcing to reliable publications, sways my opinion. Steven Walling 07:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Wikinews doesn't convey notability, and neither do photographs. The media reports that I would consider independent and reliable are really only passing mentions; being called a "leading Wikipedia editor" by the Post doesn't carry much weight (do any of these presses actually have a decent understanding of what goes on here?) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Well, it passes notability, and I don't mind that the subject is Wikipedia-related. Not navel gazing. Not self-promotion, evidently. But I can hear the delete side as well. For me the deciding vote should be cast by Sir Shank-bizzy himself. What do you say, David? -- Y not? 13:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I would hope that such a vote would be discarded by the closing admin, per WP:COI. Tarc (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Shankbone's not voting. And I don't have a COI. -- Y not? 14:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I didn't say you did. I said that the subject of the article casting a vote would be. Tarc (talk) 14:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete not notable. Most work is self-published. Article has few good sources and unlikely it ever will. The user would be completely unheard of but for his endless self-promotion. Just put this information on the user's page. Justforasecond (talk) 13:45, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - CJR atricle is more on the notion of amateur/citizen journalism than Shankbone himself (and also notes his non-importance)/. Thus per WP:BIO we fall back on the "multiple independent sources" bit, which certainly isn't there. Tarc (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Wait, how does that non-importance part play in here? It doesn't. We're interested in notability, not what a website thinks of his style. Also, if you've read the CJR article, you'll see that it is entirely about him (it mentions other Wikinews editors in, at most, one paragraph). Master of Puppets 03:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Lets see, of all the references listed, there are six reliable sources that are about Shankbone. I'm not including any references that are by him, self published material (eg - his blog), references that feature his photography, travel promotional pieces, anything from WikiNews, or that are blogs. I'm posting these citations as a itemized list because that makes it easier to see the full import of them, rather than searching through all the comments here or in the article. Listed roughly in order of significance, IMO:

1. Columbia Journalism Review - 1843 word signed article from CJR, published by Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism. Very major and in-depth article totally focused on David and his work. This is the most prestigious and significant coverage of the bunch. Includes ten direct quotes from Shankbone/Miller and his name is mentioned some 40 times. Includes snippets from two of Shankbone's interviews. This is clearly about Shankbone and not the concept of a citizen journalist.[3]
2. Brooklyn Rail - 1535 word signed interview in a monthly mazgazine. Entire article is an interview with Shankbone and covers his interviews and photography. Totally and completely about Shankbone and his work. Very significant.[4]
3. Haaretz - 1122 word signed article. Almost entirely focused on Shankbone, and with some background. Includes ten direct quotes from Shankbone and his name was mentioned 21 times. Clearly a significant article about him.[5]
4. Information Week - 301 word signed article. Not very long, but entire article covers Shankbone's exclusive interview with Peres. Significant.[6]
5. Jewish Week - 1060 words, of which 426 words, or 40% are focused on Shankbone's photographic work. Also not very long, but it includes four direct quotes from him and it's mostly about his photography. That makes it significant coverage, rather than just mentioning in passing. The rest is on other members of that trip to Israel, The Gaza war, and background.[7]
6. Jerusalem Post - 174 word signed article. Relatively short, but clearly more than a mention or a blurb (ie - one paragraph). Entirely focused on Shankbone and his trip to Israel. [8]

I think it should be very clear that these constitute multiple, non-trivial, independent, neutral, published, and verifiable sources, per WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. Those that claim that all the sources are self published or are primarily photographic content apparently haven't looked at these references closely enough, which is why I'm posting this in this format. The CJR article alone would be almost enough, considering it's academic source and import related to journalism. Coupled with the Brooklyn Rail and Haaretz articles, it's a slam dunk. Clearly satisfies WP:NOTABILITY. — Becksguy (talk) 14:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:Achromatic originally threaded his responses to sources three and five above. I have consolidated them below for clarity. user:J aka justen (talk) 19:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I would disagree - though Shankbone is a major source for the article, it is discussing how "image" on Wiki "counts" - and by image, it discusses issues such as how often the word "occupation" appears in relation to Palestine, and how Wikipedia is being used as a reference by people, and accordingly how it compares to other sites, such as Conservapedia, Google Knol, etc. Achromatic (talk) 17:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Again, disagree - the article is NOT "mostly about his photography". The article is mostly about "photo editing Israel's online image". Three small paragraphs, and one quote can be attributed to discussing Shankbone, and of those, a couple are also quite generalized. I'm not entirely sure how you got to 426 words, either. My best estimate, pasting every paragraph or sentence that referred to Shankbone resulted in barely 300 words. Achromatic (talk) 17:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Becksguy's summary and Steven Walling's argument above. If these references were included in any other AfD discussion I would certianly vote keep, I'm not going to change my interpretation of the notability criteria simply because Shankbone is a Wikipedia editor. --Jezebel'sPonyo^shhh 16:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Several people have alerted me to this AFD and requested comment. So I did the sensible thing and asked David for his opinion. He doesn't mind very much one way or the other. Now why is it important to get the subject's own opinion? Well, for one thing David is the only other Wikipedian besides myself who admits to having been the target of editing-related harassment so severe that the FBI opened an investigation. We went public together, and I can personally confirm a portion of the description he gave about his ordeal for the Brooklyn Rail. So he has no strong feelings about whether this article gets kept or deleted, he's borderline notability, so let the chips fall where they may. Durova³³¹ 18:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, Durova - good call, indeed - Alison ^❤ 18:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above. Mike R (talk) 18:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• A few data points:

Regarding the EB pic. See the story of my image of Taliesin West, used in EB, with credit to me, and it was an unsolicited usage... I never suggested it to them. Subsequently picked up by a fair few other users as well. (not trying to toot my horn here, it's a nothing special image, I just got lucky)

Regarding Google, my current ghits: 103,000. David's current ghits: 75,200.

Yet I am not notable by any stretch of the imagination. Marginally notable at best. Default to delete. ++Lar: t/c 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: corrected error in ghit link (which changes ghits from 94K to 75K, making the case more strongly. ++Lar: t/c 03:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments that ignore policy or go against it can be dismissed by the closing admin. If you can't relate a notability argument, even implicitly, with WP:N or one of its related guidelines, the time you spent here may be wasted. See WP:GHITS. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The sources that mention him seem to establish notability, IMHO. Nightscream (talk) 00:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Two cents: Regardless of whether or not the articles in question were picked up my mainstream media, really makes no difference here. In fact i can see that as the only argument being used as to why they should not be allowed. Just because some network called CNN or FOX News doesn't cover something, doesn't make it news. I think that aside of the fact the Wikinews was very young in 2005, i will point out probably one of the most credible and notable works for Wikinews was the coverage of the London bombings. I can point out others, if maybe some would take the time to google it. So if this is the only argument then it is nothing more than people wanting the sandbox all to themselves. Present an argument of policy. DragonFire1024 (talk) 02:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete He did one notable thing in his history. He did a good interview or two, he should get a mention on Wikinews, tops. Brion is more notable in my book, and he gets a redirect to Mediawiki. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 03:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete concur Shoone (talk) 03:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The concerns regarding notability do convince me. I've scanned the article I'm not convinced in that respect either that this article meets the standards for notability. NonvocalScream (talk) 04:06, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I'm sticking with my "keep" above: I have been notified that Prodego has changed to delete on the basis that the "first" in first citizen journalist is not verified (and the article has been changed). For posterity, I would like to record that I have no knowledge of the politics of this situation other than it is obviously problematic when an article about a Wikipedian pops up. Perhaps WP:BIO should have a section specifically for well-known Wikipedians to the effect that extra off-wiki notability is required to justify an article about a user, where the article was created after the user started editing. Meanwhile, whether or not "first" is true, my feeling is that notability is sufficiently established by the articles about the subject. Johnuniq (talk) 04:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep: Whilst it is always a controversy about keeping articles about people who edit WMF projects, the line " In December 2007, he became the first of the website's citizen journalists to interview a sitting head of state, Israeli President Shimon Peres." coupled with the other interviews he's done is enough to satisfy WP:BIO. Perhaps this is the type of thing all us Wikimedians should be striving for! fr33kman ^-simpleWP- 04:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per iridescent, but weakly. Crafty (talk) 04:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Keep. Appears to meet notability threshold; CJR piece is a good point in favor of keeping; that notability arises primarily from Wiki projects shouldn't matter one way or the other. Rivertorch (talk) 05:14, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This article has gone through extensive improvements since it was put up for deletion.[9] For my part, I removed one of the blog entries, and one of the NYT articles which didnt mention David. Ikip (talk) 06:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• keep appears to be notable enough via the sources provided. Ikip (talk) 06:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Notability not established. He is not notable outside the Wiki community. The article seems to portray the subject as a mainstream "photographer" and "writer" which he is not. If the article didn't have his contributions to wikipedia listed as references then the article would be a very speedy delete. When(?) he enters the mainstream then there would be a valid reason for an article.Surfing bird (talk) 09:14, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I’m not convinced that the Brooklyn Rail is particularly noteworthy: not only its own article but those of publisher Phong Bui and editor Theodore_Hamm were written by their subjects without any sources.[10][11][12] This publication has real world ties with User:Huckandrazz and Mr. Shankbone alike; see for example:[13]67.160.100.233 (talk) 09:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Deeeleeeeeette puffery about an individual who is non notable outside the enWP community, dressed up to look like a grown up biography (utterly deplorable sourcing to amateur journalism site and various unreliable blogs). Viridae^Talk 10:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

CJR being an amateur journalism site or perhaps an unreliable blog? DGG ( talk ) 04:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep From curiosity I rewrote the article in another language (see la:David Shankbone), filtering out the purely internal references to Wikipedia. The exercise persuaded me, against NonvocalScream and Surfing bird above, that when this filtering is done, notability remains. (For full disclosure: as will be seen from one of the footnote references on the translated page, I had heard the name David Shankbone before!) Andrew Dalby 12:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And if you re write this one... I have been known to change my mind. Very best, NonvocalScream (talk) 14:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Prodego and Warrah. I saw him on People's Court once, but he's still not notable enough to be burdened with a Wikipedia biography. I did get my first Latin Wikipedia edit though. Good times. Lara 14:49, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators: Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted. There are a lot of arguments either discussing notability without regard to what WP:N or WP:BIO actually say, or even contradicting them. At the same time, we have plenty of Keep editors citing WP:N on the necessary amount of sourcing, and citing the Columbia Journalism Review article as meeting the criteria for WP:N, so what value should the closing admin put on Delete comments that ignore this? Strong "delete" arguments would discuss the CJR article. (Tarc's argument does this, and I don't think it can be discounted.) Comments that amount to WP:IDONTLIKEIT should be totally discounted. This shouldn't be a popularity contest. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Interviews a sitting head of state, mentioned in the Columbia Journalism Review, the Haaretz and Information Week, his work being used by The New York Times and Encylopaedia Britannica, Time Out and The Guardian. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Wikipedia is not for self-promotion. Skinwalker (talk) 01:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• As your comment is currently phrased, I think it can only be described as poorly considered and not in line with wp:agf. The subject of the article did not create the article, as far as I know did not advocate for its creation, and has not argued for its retention. He has become notable through his contributions primarily to another project, and I don't believe it's fair to assume that he undertook that work in order to become notable. Others here who have argued "navel gazing" and so forth might have been arguing some sort of collective issue, but your comment directly implicates someone who, so far as we know, probably would prefer not to have to deal with this article. Calling it "self-promotion" is a very poor, very unfair, and very inaccurate allegation. user:J aka justen (talk) 02:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Please consider this simplistic question as an ironic muse and not meant to denigrate anyone in these discussions, but will there soon be a referundum to delete any article about any editor who has a notability that stems from, is a result of, or developed from their work on Wikipedia, even if they are covered by sources outside the project? Sometimes and surprisingly, the outside world does pay attention to what goes on within these pages. Not to be WP:WAXing, but I'd hate to see this escalate to the point where we have new debates over inclusion of such as Jimy Wales, Larry Sanger, or Richard Stallman. And yes... editors may not wish to classify David Shankbone with these luminaries, but where do editors wish to draw the line? Even without Wikinews, the available off-Wikipedia sources appear to meet the inclusion requirements of WP:BIO... and that would seem to indicate some rewrite or cleanup if one dismisses all Wikinews, but not deletion. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 02:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep 'Nuff said. To have that in-depth of an article on oneself by the CJR is clear evidence of notability. I'm puzzled by remarks of how the journal doesn't tout him as a master wordsmith; does that mean he's not notable? This isn't about his quality as a journalist. It's about his notability. I'm firmly leaning on a keep here. Master of Puppets 03:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Anyone and everyone the leading RS in the world for the subject (in this case the CJR) does a full article on is notable. And certainly they are if there is a 2nd unrelated source, with significant coverage--in this case the Jerusalem Post. We are not here to evaluate his work, or to say how important we personally think he ought to be. We are here to see if people outside Wikipedia think him notable, and that's been proven. DGG ( talk ) 04:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment After some investigation, it's my opinion that User:Huckandraz (contributions,) who created this article,[14] has also edited under (at least) the following usernames:

User:Babyrockcontributions

User:Lyltrycontributions

User:Profgregorycontributions

User:Vanguard121contributions

See also User:Easyreeder(contributions) on Wikinews.

67.160.100.233 (talk) 09:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]