User talk:Rhoark: Difference between revisions

Hi Rhoark! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Come join other new editors at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a space where new editors can get help from other new editors. These editors have also just begun editing Wikipedia; they may have had similar experiences as you. Come share your experiences, ask questions, and get advice from your peers. I hope to see you there! Rosiestep (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the Teahouse This message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 16:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please read this notification carefully:
A community discussion has authorised the use of general sanctions for pages related to the Gamergate controversy, such as Talk:Gamergate controversy, which you have recently edited.
The details of these sanctions are described here.

General sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimise disruption in controversial topic areas. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to these topics that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behaviour, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. An editor can only be sanctioned after he or she has been made aware that general sanctions are in effect. This notification is meant to inform you that sanctions are authorised in these topic areas, which you have been editing. It is only effective if it is logged here. Before continuing to edit pages in these topic areas, please familiarise yourself with the general sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date. Strongjam (talk) 19:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Rhoark! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Wikipedia, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! Avono (talk) 14:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply] Getting Started Contributing to Wikipedia The five pillars of Wikipedia • Tutorial • Your first article How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions New contributors' help page Where to: ask questions • make requests Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Simplified Manual of Style • Three-revert rule Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • Sock puppetry Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump IRC channels • Mailing lists Discover what's going on in the Wikimedia community (The Signpost) Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Maintenance • Peer review • Requested articles Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Hi Rhoark, when responding to people on talk pages, could you select "edit section" instead of edit page? It makes it much easier for people reading the talk page history or looking at their watchlist, to see if a talk section they're interested in/involved with has had a response. Sorry for bothering.Bosstopher (talk) 14:53, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Will do, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Rhoark (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just read your comments here and was very impressed by your reasoning and citation of Wikipedia policy. Very well argued. Unfortunately, I don't think you will convince many other editors who are entrenched as they don't seem to be discussing the issue with you in good faith (e.g. RPoD's "mommy mommy" comment) but I can say you have certainly changed my view. Thank you for that informative post.

Even if there is some debate over the way you invoked the policies you cited, let's not forget the most important Wikipedia policy of them all. PirkeiAvot (talk) 21:17, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I edited the above to remove references on the talk page. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Hopefully enough people can be convinced to move forward with achieving neutrality. Rhoark (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

People who link to the "most important Wikipedia policy of them all" always seem to forget or ignore the very important conditional that is attached to to the IAR part. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have filed an enforcement request related to your recent conduct at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Rhoark. You are welcome to respond. Hipocrite (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I am no admin and is my personal opinion ... you need to take a break from GamerGate, at least right now. Or reflect more on your past actions. It's not looking good for you. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will take that under advisement. Your concern is appreciated. Rhoark (talk) 05:30, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • For what it's worth, I am inclined to think that you have the best interests of the encyclopedia in mind; I'm not sure how much it means, coming from me, but I heartily second Starship.paint's suggestion.

On an unrelated note (and why I came here), I wanted to mention to you that (I believe) statements are generally limited to 500 words, unless an admin approves longer. I'm certain they'll let you know if they have an issue, but it might be worth you considering asking one of the admin's for an exception, or how you can maintain your point while shortening your statement. AtomsOrSystems (talk) 05:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Additionally, regarding the WP:V core content policy (not to be violated), the "burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Regarding the essay WP:BRD, the person making the edit (not the revert) is supposed to discuss, after the revert happens. But if a "reversion is met with another bold effort, then [the reverter] should consider not reverting, but discussing". starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 07:50, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following sanction now applies to you:

Prohibited from editing the Gamergate controversy article and its talk page (including all sub-pages of both) until 12:00, 02 May 2015 (UTC).

You have been sanctioned for the reasons provided in this arbitration enforcement request.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I will also warn you that misconduct in the area discretionary sanctions have been authorised ((a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b)) will likely result in a broad topic ban for an extended period of time. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Rhoark, thanks for making these updates—plus one I hadn't even got around to asking about yet. The article still has a number of problems (something editors have pointed out in the past: here, here, and here) and I'd like to figure out the best way to go about fixing that. For one thing, much of the text is highly critical of Mr. Shaw, yet relies only on sources from 2003 and 2004, without reflecting later developments. If you are willing to hear me out on a few specifics, let me know. Either way, I'll be posting them to the Shaw discussion page soon, and probably go to BLP/N next if you're busy. Thanks again, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 23:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@WWB Too: It's not something I'd care to do the legwork on, but if you can provide a few sourced draft sentences about later developments, I'd certainly vet them. Rhoark (talk) 23:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, I've been working on that in the background. I'll put that together and likely post those up at the Shaw discussion page later this week. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 02:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your input over there. We didn't see quite eye to eye, but what you said made a lot of sense and I really appreciate both your diplomacy and that you took the time. Formerly 98 (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rhoark (talk) 23:22, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Rhoark. I was about to issue a trout slap to myself for my knee-jerk reaction to IP 78.68.210.173 on the relevant ANI, but it was kindly closed off by Drmies. I've written a lengthy comment on my own talk to the IP as to the circumstances, and have left a talkback notification for that particular contributor.

Nevertheless, I'll be following that particular RS/N for as long as the thread is kept 'alive', not because I'm particularly concerned with that particular IP having started a new entry, but at your behest. I am more than happy to continue discussion as to parsing where Western, Russian, Chinese or any other news analysis is relevant dependent on the context. Whether or not we see eye-to-eye on any issues is irrelevant: I don't always see eye-to-eye with any of the other contributors/editors with absolutist views on the value of purportedly RS sources and opposed to 'naughty' sources that should never be seen as anything less than always biased (i.e., Western sources are always RS, whereas 'other' sources have an agenda). All sources used for recent events in particular have an agenda. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: Thanks for being constructive. The discussion seems to have died out. I had hoped for better. I don't agree with the Russian point of view, but I agree with those who feel it deserves better treatment under NPOV policy. I think it will be of historical interest. Twice I've pulled out a chair for them at the table by quoting a policy framework for them to work under. Both times the response has been to tantrum and not present even a draft sentence for article space. My position remains the same, but I'm not going to wade in with my own drafts. Rhoark (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My pleasure, Rhoark. Defining RS is highly problematic and, more often than not, I find myself 'writing for the enemy' despite the fact that I have not turned to mainstream reportage as my personal preference for information for around 40 years. Erhem, would you believe that I was paying attention whilst still in my mother's womb? No?

There has been much in the way of railing against commercial news services, but discussions as to how to evaluate RS are constantly being marred by overenthusiastic crusaders who have only just encountered socio-political/economic/geostrategic interests and think there are simple answers to complex questions because they're obviously the first people to have identified these discrepancies... ever! Discussions normally end up taking place within the confines of specific queries at the RSN where they're quickly dismissed/ignored.

The only methodology for tackling higher level questions of narrative lines is to start a dedicated talk page. Again, this approach has been tackled behind the scenes of the RSN and NPOVN, but 'arguments' have descended into arguments simply because anyone can join in. While, in theory, I do believe that these should be open venues, the objective ends up being lost in more 'my 2¢ worth' than focus on the nitty-gritty of the exercise.

Sigh, well that's my 2¢. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings. The said cabal (of which Drimes seems to be a part of, for he stalks every post I make and is the one that closed the mediation, the administration notice, the post in the discussion page) has made the Battle of Ilovaisk a semi-protected article so I have not even been able to edit it, they have instead deleted my and other peoples comments on the talk-page. As I have exhausted all options I will from now on only insult or ignore Iryna Harpy. Good game, let the propaganda flow free. I am probably done with editing for a while again. 78.68.210.173 (talk) 14:05, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Rhoark. I took a look at your RSRUBRIC essay, and it reminded me about an essay I myself wrote a while ago, Verifiability, and truth. Not entirely the same topic, but certainly related, I think. Thought I'd just share the link in case you haven't seen it yet. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 18:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, what I'm doing depends on looking at a lot of different perspectives. There have been several times I was about to commit a sentence to the essay, then realized I had been on the receiving end of that claim before and disagreed with it. It's a tightrope act. Rhoark (talk) 18:54, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes I visit Reddit, trying to get an advanced look at potential trouble headed Wikipedia's way. I just saw your post there attempting to build support for game archiving. As a librarian, I wanted to express my admiration for your efforts. I know nothing about game archiving in particular, though I have studied and written about the preservation of digital material so I'm aware of the complexities involved in archiving this stuff that you were trying to explain to people. It is disappointing that so many there were determined to look at what should be an important and neutral issue through the lens of their ideology. Gamaliel (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is indeed an account named rhoark on reddit expressing some very insightful views. They are also probably very handsome. It's unfortunate that so many people continue to focus on "winning", without realizing anything but peaceful resolution is not a winning condition. Thanks for reaching out. Here's some more about game archival you might find interesting [1] [2] Rhoark (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the links. The Gamasutra article was especially interesting - and depressing. It's sad how much of our technological and digital history is being lost because of inadequate historical archiving. I ran into the same problem with my research (as yet unpublished, but I'm hoping this year) into early webcomics. We simply can't pinpoint for sure what the first webcomic was because so much from the internet and online services in the 90s was simply not preserved. Gamaliel (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I created a dedicated email in case anyone wants to contact me privately about Wikipedia matters. rhoark at redchan.it It's ironic. Cope. Rhoark (talk) 02:56, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's a burner address, but still a better way to communicate than smoke signals, honest. Rhoark (talk) 22:55, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anything sent will be held in confidence, as long you don't say you're planning a shooting rampage or something like that. Rhoark (talk) 19:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Rhoark, this is to let you know that an Arbitration amendment request listing you as a party has been archived to the GamerGate case talk page, because there was no consensus for amendment among arbitrators. For the Arbitration Committee, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 17:19, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I looked over your editing history and found that you have restored or added original research/Synth in way too many cases. You made you first edit on November 24 last year, restoring these unsourced pearls of wisdom, reworked them and later added your opinion which you sourced to blogs that say nothing of the sort and don't even mention the topic of that article. A short stint at Talk:Frankfurt School conspiracy theory followed where you argued that describing "Cultural Marxism" as a conspiracy theory is "prejudicing" and something about editors editing for "the Russian side". Then after 16 such edits, you arrived on the GamerGate controversy page and talk page, essentially becoming an SPA who did very little other than discuss GG, comment on GG enforcement requests and the GG ArbCom case, and work on GG in your sandbox. After you were prohibited from editing the GG page, you branched out into new gender related topics, where you continued to add or restore OR/Synth like here, here and here. You have opinions about these topics and you have found published material that you believe is relevant so you add that material although the sources do not discuss the topic of the articles. It's like you added a sourced paragraph about virginity to the atheism page. Your sources discuss virginity. But they don't mention it in connection with atheism. But because you think that virginity is obviously related to atheism, you just add it to the atheism article. You are a regular on the OR and RS noticeboards although you don't seem to follow the WP:OR policy in your own edits. The ArbCom case was meant to prevent the GamerGate nonsense from spilling over onto other articles, especially gender related ones, but so far it looks like your unhelpful editing hasn't received adequate scrutiny. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This walk through memory lane is cherry-picked, unrepresentative, and generally without purpose. I'm sure I could tell an unflattering story about your editing history as well, but I don't care to do that. If I have any preoccupation in my editing, its countering editors that twist OR to push their PoV - which brings us here. I'll be addressing the specific content questions on the relevant talk pages. Rhoark (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've made a request for dispute resolution regarding the Moon Landing article. Just wanted to let you know :) LadyLeitMotif (talk) 12:48, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Anal jihad. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Repeated vandalism can result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:48, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy Macon: Your reversions are violations of WP:BLP, as I've explained repeatedly on the talk page. I've requested comment from BLP/N rather than edit warring with you. You are not in the right with respect to content policy, and if you continue to push this as a conduct matter expect it to WP:BOOMERANG. Rhoark (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Go for it. There is no living person named "Rape Jihad" and the article in question is not a biography. "BLP" is not a magic word that allows you to delete anything you don't like, and Wikipedia's BLP policy does not protect large political organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood from criticism. There is no 3RR restriction on reverting vandalism. Note that I !voted for deletion at the AfD -- I don't think the article belongs on Wikipedia -- but that does not imply that you are free to vandalize it. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the article is headed to deletion makes me disinclined to file any extra proceedings about it. BLP applies everywhere on the encyclopedia, and WP:BURDEN applies everywhere in article space. I suggest you look closer at these policies, lest the next time you try these tactics you encounter an editor less forbearing than I. Rhoark (talk) 16:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed, Men's rights movement, is on article probation. A detailed description of the terms of article probation may be found at Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. Also note that the terms of some article probations extend to related articles and their associated talk pages.

The above is a templated message. Please accept it as a routine friendly notice, not as a claim that there is necessarily any problem with your edits. Thank you. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

• On the History of software engineering page, your edit caused an ISBN error (help). (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

Hope all's well. I noticed you stopped by at the No Gun Ri Massacre talk page. I also noticed that you sometimes provide third opinions. Right now, what we need more than anything is the involvement of third party editors on this page, which has seen some turmoil and dispute in the past. If you could perhaps help mediate the discussion and editing process, we'd all really appreciate it.

Thanks,

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 17:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm preparing to comment on the RSN question at least. Rhoark (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've redacted part of your comment because of BLP concerns. — Strongjam (talk) 19:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This has been brought to my attention. Please don't waste editors' time with fraudulent COI claims. Gamaliel (talk) 01:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have no direct knowledge as to Mark Bernstein's actual business relationships; however, he stated unequivocally that he sought to establish such a relationship with the Warren campaign in 2012. That is, without a doubt, sufficient evidence for good-faith suspicion that a conflict of interest may exist. I have followed the advice and directions of WP:COI precisely by making a civil post on Mark Bernstein's talk page. Rhoark (talk) 02:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Roark says that I "stated unequivocally’ that I “sought to establish" a business relationship with Elizabeth Warren’s campaign. This is a deliberate lie. I wrote the following:

I think that Tinderbox would be a terrific tool for field organizers. I offered copies — as many as you need. Training? You got it. Want it non-disclosed to be sure I’m not a snake-oil charlatan? Fine.

In short, I offered what all campaign volunteers offer -- to use my personal abilities and professional skills and resources on behalf of the campaign. The passage cannot possibly be read as an unequivocal statement that I sought a business relationship: it describes an offer of service to a campaign that was eagerly seeking volunteers and which went on to become a new legend in Massachusetts politics. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What are you after? I consider your response (the portions that are not ad hominem) to be sufficient to allay concerns. Unless someone else decides to take it to the COI noticeboard, I consider the matter resolved. However, if you continue to accuse me of lying, in order to defend myself I will need to elaborate in further detail why I found your statements problematic w.r.t. Wikipedia policy. I don't think you should be eager to go down that road. Rhoark (talk) 18:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

“Please, sir,” Mark said, “have some more rope!” MarkBernstein (talk) 19:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhoark: and @Gamaliel: Hi there Gamaliel. By way of introduction I am a UK blogger and journalist. No socking here - my real and pen name are shown clearly on my user page. I consider that you may have been too hasty and mistaken on policy when you warned Roark.

I recently wrote a series of articles about an ArbCom case in which a Wikipedia Administrator and CheckUser accused a prominent politician of sock puppeting and editing his own page. However it transpired that the administrator in question had been an unpaid volunteer for and supporter of a rival party. ArbCom removed the administrator's privileges, finding WP:COI.

My articles were the source of followups in every major UK publication and cited by Breitbart.

The ArbCom ruling sounds correct to me. Politicians usually have paid staff and volunteers. I do not see how a politician could escape CoI just by getting a volunteer to make changes. Even if the volunteer acted independently as in the ArbCom case, would the politician's opponents and rivals feel comfortable with an avowed supporter doing edits? ArbCom were pretty clear. I (and others) are very concerned about the failure to address WP:WikiBullying and other adverse issues associated with some editors. There are also concerns about the contact of some editors with the Guardian newspaper.

It looks to me like Rhoark was correct on policy. Gamaliel's enthusiasm for this topic may have strayed over the line - doubtless in good faith - into WP:WikiBullying so I invite Gamaliel to reconsider whether there is an issue here and whether in fact on mature reflection Gamaliel would like to apologise to Rhoark and withdraw the warning.

I will be producing a video on this topic soon and invite Gamaliel to get in touch via the email address on my blog so I can send him some questions I have. As I have observed, my work gets read by a lot of people.Vordrak (talk) 11:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by my position that I consider the matter resolved, with respect to any possible financial incentive. There was apparently no business relationship between Eastgate and the Warren campaign. I am still displeased about the ad hominem attacks that have resulted from his unwillingness to accept that a reasonable person might conclude that he sought to establish such a relationship. I'm also disappointed he has framed this as a criticism of his political affiliations; those are entirely laudable. He should probably be cautious with his edits during the 2018 re-election season, as should any volunteer, but as long as edits are on the volunteer's own initiative that's a milder form of COI that I don't think policy requires to be burdened with all the formal processes outlined at WP:COI. This is my first foray into COI issues, and I'm not familiar with the ArbCom case you mention, so I'm certainly no expert, but this is my reading of the situation. Rhoark (talk) 15:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Rhoark to cut and paste from WP:COI, Any external relationship – personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal – can trigger a COI. Being a supporter is not necessarily a problem but being a volunteer assisting a campaign is, certainly according to the policy as written. I respectfully think you should stick to your guns and have invited Gamaliel to reconsider his use of the word, 'fraudulent' in relation to the COI query. Vordrak (talk) 15:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]