Talk:Vladimir Putin: Difference between revisions

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Vladimir Putin was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result April 15, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed August 16, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted News items involving this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on February 24, 2004, March 3, 2008, September 24, 2008, and March 5, 2012. A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 31, 2012. Current status: Former good article nominee

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Vladimir Putin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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Text and/or other creative content from Vladimir Putin was copied or moved into Panama Papers. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

The article states that "Putin describes Donald trump as his "pawn", "a puppet", "my little marionette,", and ""a very liyal soldier for Russia", depending on Emperor Putin's mood.". If the quotes are correct there should be references. In any case, Putin is not an "Emperor". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:700:300:420C:3486:B8D4:B802:8C68 (talk) 15:50, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii 00:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

No critics section? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii 00:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Wiki censorship. There's plenty of criticism and controversy surrounding Putin. Also note the article is protected now. 2600:8805:5800:F500:9C9D:6AB3:CBF8:A317 (talk) 14:34, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't see why we should add opinions of senators from the US Congress onto this article. If that were the case, we'd have to add every senators' assessments regarding Vladimir Putin. Why just McCain's? Why not add Barbara Boxer's? Jeff Flake's? Dick Durbin's? There are 99 Senators to choose from. And why stop at the United States? There's many French, Italian, Swedish, and etc. legislative politicians that said similar statements. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:04, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

US policy is set by Congress and the key Congressional leader on Russian affairs is Senator McCain. He is NOT "every senator" --the Senate is hierarchical and he is at the top as chief GOP spokesman on the issue in Congress & he chairs the critical military affairs committee --and he was GOP presidential candidate. Why not Sweden too???--because McCain sets policy for about 40% of world's military strength. Rjensen (talk) 23:09, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The United States has many committees with many different senators heading them. What makes McCain special? Why not quote the head of the Foreign Relations committee? Governmental Affairs? Homeland Security? What you're doing is nitpicking at this point. Remember, this is a WP:BLP and before adding contentious material that calls Putin "Vladimir Putin is a thug and a murderer and a killer and a KGB agent", you're going to need pretty strong consensus for it. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:17, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

the military affairs committee for 70 years has focused on Russia, and the media and RS have focused on it and its chairman. The agriculture committee is less relevent for Putin. The contentious statement is fully sourced and attributed not to Wikipedia but to Senator McCain. We can indeed add the Senate Foreign Relations chairman Bob Corker: he's made these recent headline on Putin: 1) "Sen. Bob Corker denounces Donald Trump on Putin" - CNNPolitics.com Sep 8, 2016. 2) "Key GOP senators join call for bipartisan Russia election probe" led by Corker [today]; 3) "Corker thinks Russia tried to meddle in election" - [Nov 15] etc etc. Rjensen (talk) 23:40, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hence, there's no end in sight for the amount of quotations by senators. That's why such a lengthy quote from McCain is undue. You can try to summarize them all though. For example, "Corker, Senate Foreign Relations chairman, has denounced Putin. As has McCain, leader of Senate Arms Committee, and etc. etc." And why should it end with senators? We can add the opinions of Ashton Carter, Joseph Dunford, Eric Fanning, and so forth. So it still begs the question, where does it end? That's why I believe these opinions shouldn't even be included in the article. Heads of state and politicians on a federal level have more sway in decision making when it comes to bi-lateral relations with Russia. That should be the main focus. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with EtienneDolet. We can't possibly include every colorful accusation by every Putin-basher. McCain's allegations are moreoever quite extreme, and I remind everyone that this is a BLP article. Furthermore, the "Assessment" section is currently extremely unbalanced. All the assessments are in fact insults, ranging from the extreme ("dictator") to the bizarre ("self-centered"), with the sole exception that of Gorbachev and Kadyrov (!). The individuals quoted are also a motley collection of marginal figures, such as failed presidential candidate Hillary Clinton to the Dalai Lama and Garry Kasparov. Completely unbalanced and needs a re-write. Athenean (talk) 04:21, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a part of section "Public image", and the opinions by highly notable politicians represent his public image. Actually, this particular opinion expresses views by a very large part of political establishment in US in many other countries, and it does not matter if certain WP contributors agree with such views. Therefore, I think this opinion must remain on the page simply per WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 16:33, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

McCain is one of the most well known senators and is also the chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee, as well as a former presidential candidate.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:51, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A failed presidential candidate. Who is pushing WP:FRINGE views and conspiracy theories on top of that. Sorry, no way. Athenean (talk) 06:10, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee and one of the most well known senators. And CBS news is not fringe. You know what is a BLP violation? Referring to living persons such as McCain, a respected politician - as "fringe" based on nothing but your own personal opinion.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:15, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"He is is a thug and a murderer and a killer..." is WP:FRINGE, I don't care how many committees McCain is sitting on. As are allegations by unnamed sources (i.e. nothing more than rumors). This is well into BLP territory. And don't lecture others about edit-warring while you are yourself guilty of it. Athenean (talk) 06:27, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's why it's properly attributed. If a US Senator makes these kinds of statements, it's notable. We are not saying it's true. We are only saying McCain said it. You know how this works.

As to the "allegations", that's your own personal opinion, unsupported by sources.

One more time. CBS news is not "fringe". Stop making stuff up.

And of course I see that the ol' tag team is hard at work.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:29, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The McCain stuff is borderline conspiracy talk with no factual basis to what he's saying. I think he's losing it. I could tell he's getting a bit too old already. Maybe it's time he retires or something. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:28, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The "factual basis" of what he's saying is irrelevant. We are not saying it in Wikipedia voice. We're attributing it to McCain.

And you have some freakin' nerve invoking BLP and then violating it right in the same breath right here with your comments about "he's losing it", and "he's getting a bit too old". Please strike your BLP violations or ... well, you know how this works too.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of Senators. I don't see why we HAVE to include McCain, whose hostility to Putin is well-known. The assessment section is almost entirely negative anyway. The hacking allegations are also WP:RECENT and premature, since the investigations are just starting. We should at least wait until they conclude. Not to mention that in your edit-warring, you clumsily added it out of chronological order, in between things that happened in 2007. Athenean (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And you of all people, have some "freakin' nerve" to talk about tag teams. Just like you did when you accused others of edit-warring while you were yourself chest-deep in it. Athenean (talk) 06:36, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]