Talk:Uzundara: Difference between revisions

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@Archives908: Source you have provided for the "Armenian dance" claim seems to not meet requirements of a reliable source. A source that uses lines such as "The existence of those Azeris was probably the irony of fate kept for us." and has articles published with titles like "Azerbaijan - a satanic fabrication - Meanwhile, Baku is an Armenian city, as its original name is Bagu, whose Bag root means God նջ in ancient Armenian Կ..." is definitely not a reliable source. Please familiarise yourself with WP:RS. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 19:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Upon further review of the source, I too have determined that it probably isn't the most academic. I have removed the source in good faith. However, the mention of the dance as a traditional Armenian folk dance is also confirmed in the two other academic sources provided (albeit in Russian). Please remember that the peoples of the Caucasus do have cultural similarities including through dance, food, music, poetry and art in general; some of which is not exclusive to just one group. Please also note that the peoples of all three nations today, were at many points over the course of history, living side-by-side for thousands of years and as a result, have appropriated some of each others traditions. As in this case, the dance does have significance with Armenians just as much as Azeri's and Georgians. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 20:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908: I have taken a look at the 2 new sources you have provided. "Музыкально-исторический процесс в Крыму конца XIX начала ХХ столетия" does say "Armenian dance — Uzundara", though it is suspicious that the author gives sources for most of his claims but not this. And the second source you have provided does not say dance is an Armenian one, but rather says that it is famous among Karabakh Armenians. In my opinion, the sources that say it's a dance of Azeri origin are greater in both numbers and reliability, which makes me think writing that it's a dance of both Azeri and Armenian origin is misleading and inaccurate. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 20:45, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Who said anything about it being originated solely in Armenia? The article itself clearly states: "The song originates in a valley between Agdam and Goytapa village in Karabakh area by the name of "Uzun dara", which means Long valley in Azeri Turkish". I have not tried to edit, refute, or remove that. Rather, I am trying to point out that the dance does have significance in Armenian culture (no matter where it originated from); even the other sources agree to that. So, by removing the name of the dance in Armenian (as you have done twice) is not appropriate as the dance does have cultural significance to Armenians, regardless of its origin. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908: I don't mind it having an Armenian translation. But I do mind it saying it's an "Azerbaijani and Armenian dance" which implies it's a dance of both origins. So, what do you say we keep the Armenian translation and write it's a dance of Azerbaijani origin that's also famous among Armenians and Georgians? — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 21:18, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Then why did you delete only the Armenian translation twice? Regardless, the opening sentence does not imply that the dance is Armenian. On the contrary, it does imply that it is a dance preformed mainly by women (in Azerbaijan and Armenia) - which is accurate. No where in the article does it explicitly and outright state that this dance is 100% Armenian in origin. In fact, it states that the song itself originated between Agdam and Goytapa- which is in Azerbaijan. So, I fail to see your concern. The current wording reflects the cultural significance of this dance to Azeri's, Armenian's and Georgians quite well. Archives908 (talk) 22:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The lead looks fine as is. The reader is clearly and quickly informed of it's likely origin. To put as comparison Tamzara dance is said to be a "an Armenian, Assyrian, Azerbaijani (regions of Sharur, Nakhchivan and parts of Iranian Azerbaijan),[1][2] and Greek[3] folk dance"; Obviously Tamzara did not originate from every one of those, and Tamzara's actual possible origin is later explained in that article in a later section. Uzundara is even quicker in providing the origin, taking only up to the second sentence in the lead. Maidyouneed (talk) 00:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Very well put and good comparison. Thanks, Archives908 (talk) 00:21, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908: How about we make the lead something along the lines of:

Uzundara (Template:Lang-az, Template:Lang-am, Georgian: უზუნდარა) is a lyrical dance originating in a valley between Agdam and Goytapa village in Karabakh area. The name "Uzun dara", means Long valley in Azeri. The dance is famous in Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia..." — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 14:15, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you have completely ignored the discussion and points mentioned above. The lead is fine as is. Also, for the third time, you are attempting to remove the Armenian language. This is unacceptable, and now I fear this is borderline POV. Amharic is an Afro-Asiatic language native to Ethiopia and is not applicable to be used in this article as you are suggesting. Archives908 (talk) 14:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Was it really not obvious to you that I accidentally put Amharic instead of Armenian? Even when the letters are Armenian? Not very nice to accuse people of POV for obvious mistakes. And I have not ignored the discussion above. I don't think the current version is as clear to the readers like the one I presented. I don't understand why you're seeing a problem with it as it's the same paragraph with sentence changing places to make the paragraph more easily understandable. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 11:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In any regards, a consensus must be reached. Myself as well as another editor believe the lead was (and still is) perfectly sufficient before you deleted content on August 25th. Your the only editor, thus far, seemingly hellbent to change it. Furthermore, your current edit proposal can be taken as somewhat biased in the sense that it is pushing the reader to believe that the dance solely originated in Azerbaijan. For starters, Agdam is currently within the de facto independent Republic of Artsakh, which may raise confusion. Secondly, the region for hundreds of years was populated by both Armenians and Azeri's; to propel the narrative that the dance solely originated among Azeri's, is pushing on POV and completely disregards the academic sources provided which do show that the dance has cultural significance among Armenians/possibly originated by either Azeri's/Armenians within the Nagorno-Karabakh region. The current wording maintains a far better degree of neutrality, highlights the importance of the dance to both peoples, and clearly states where it likely originated from (between NKR and Azerbaijan). For the second time, I fail to see any concern with that. Archives908 (talk) 12:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908: May I ask in what part of the sentence I proposed do you see a word/sentence that directly or indirectly says that the dance originated solely in Azerbaijan. I think I need to quote my sentence because I don't think you have read it properly:

"...lyrical dance originating in a valley between Agdam and Goytapa village in Karabakh area."

It does not say "in Karabakh, Azerbaijan" or "in Azerbaijan", it says in Karabakh. Which is a region spanning across Armenia and Azerbaijan (might be useful to read the article that it leads to if you think Karabakh is an Azeri-exclusive term for part of the region just within de jure Azerbaijan borders). On another note as an editor, you should always assume WP:GF in other fellow editors unless there is obvious proof for the opposite. And unfortunately, in this case, you first accused me of POV editing and now are accusing me of being biased, which is neither nice nor a good way to reach a consensus. All I'm and others in this community are trying to do is improve the quality of articles. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 14:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have always assumed WP:GF in you and I am fully aware that we are here to build this encyclopedia. I have been more then cordial throughout our discussions and even agreed with you at the beginning about sources and adjusted my edit in good faith. However, I became rightfully concerned after your second edit to remove the Armenian language from the lead. You also wrote above and I am directly quoting: "write it's a dance of Azerbaijani origin". If the dance had its origins among the Armenians and Azeri's in the NKR region, then to write that the dance is of Azerbaijani origin (as you recommended), is not only displaying a degree of bias but also in contradiction of your new statements above. For the third time, the article adequately covers the origin of the dance, while maintaining a neutral stance (as per WP:BALANCE, WP:IMPARTIAL and WP:NPOV). I fail to see any concern. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908: It's great that you try to always assume WP:GF, but it doesn't seem exactly like it. When I reverted your 2nd edit, I had only just started this discussion on this talk page and you hadn't replied yet. So, seeing the obviously offensive and incorrect source you gave (which was the only source you gave at the time and one which you later removed after our discussion here), I could only think of your edit as unhelpful. Which was why I reverted your whole edit (which included the Armenian translation. I did not solely edit out the Armenian translation).

This was your 3rd comment since the new lead suggestion comment (one starting with How about we make the lead..) and in none of them have you acknowledged it (nor answered my questions about it, like my question on the last comment: May I ask in what part of the sentence I proposed do you see a word/sentence that directly or indirectly says that the dance originated solely in Azerbaijan) and instead went after my older comments or obvious typos I had made. In fact, you have ignored everything about the first half of my latest reply. And because you have not made any comment on my actual suggestion, I fail to understand what part of my suggested sentence you think is "biased" or POV or unclear, which is the reason this discussion has become stagnate. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 20:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First off, you may have thought my edit was not helpful, but I was trying to highlight the main argument; which was that this dance was also practiced by Armenians a very long time ago and has cultural significance. Once you pointed out the flawed source, I removed it and added two academic sources in return. That is was diligent editors do. And yet you seem to mock me; not very constructive at all. And in terms of ignoring comments, you completely ignored the other editors excellent comparison. So it's a tad hypocritical of you to be coming so hard at me for that... Secondly, your error was not obvious to me. Seeing as how you removed Armenian twice before, one could easily assume that you were intentionally trying to remove it again. And finally, please re-read my last comment above- and if you still truly do not understand how your original suggestion is slightly biased then I do not know how much more obvious or simpler I can communicate that. This dance is both Azeri and Armenian. To elude (as you originally suggested) that the dance originated only in modern-day Azerbaijan, is simply untrue. Your newest suggestion is redundant in the sense that the article already describes the geographic location of its origin. I am extremely perplexed as to what exactly your actual concern is. Nonetheless, at least we agree on one thing- this conversation is going no where. If others would like to chime in, feel free. Archives908 (talk) 20:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908: I feel like I need to touch every single point you make individually:

• I couldn't trust your argument at the time, because as I said the only source you provided was the offensive and inaccurate source, which you rightfully deleted afterward. I was oblivious to the fact that the dance was practiced in Armenia as well, therefore it would've taken me a good source for me to believe that, which you later, rightfully provided. I don't know which part of "..one which you later removed after our discussion here)" you found to be "mocking", but that wasn't my intention.
• I did not ignore his/her comments, I read it thoroughly and did not agree with it, which prompted me to make my next comment after his, which was the lead suggestion comment. And you're right, I came at you hard for that because now this marks your 4th comment since the lead comment and you have still not said a word about why you don't like it.
• You'd think it'd be pretty obvious that I wouldn't add an Ethiopian language when all we've discussed was the Armenian language. Especially, when the letters themselves were Armenian. It's understandable you didn't realize the obvious mistake at first, but coming at me hard for that immediately and then using it as a way to make it look like I was trying to completely erase Armenian translation is not constructive.
• I think I already touched on this on my last comment but, why are you still talking about what I originally suggested when I've suggested completely different things afterward. This is not a way to get this conversation going.
• "Your newest suggestion is redundant in the sense that the article already describes the geographic location of its origin." - What? My suggestion describes the geographic origin of the dance to avoid any political issues without mentioning both Azerbaijan and Armenia. I really don't understand why you have a problem with that.
• I'm as perplexed as you are since I feel like we're going in circles with each comment because my actual suggestions are not being discussed. Please, in your next comment, tell me why you believe my lead suggestion is biased, wrong, and not fit.

— CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 06:26, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to keep this as minimal and simple for your understanding. Your current, most recent suggestion conveys that the dance originated between NKR and Azerbaijan. 1) the article already states that the dance is an Azerbaijani and Armenian dance and 2) already provides the geographic location of its origin. You wrongfully keep saying that I'm ignoring your suggestion, however, I have stated this several times and will now repeat it once more... Your new recommendation seems redundant for the two points mentioned directly above. It does not seem like a drastic improvement as that information is already present in the current wording. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 11:59, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Archives908:

1) My suggestion says it originates in Karabakh region, which extends from Armenia to Azerbaijan and I don't think you're disagreeing with that. But I don't think it's fair to say it's just an Azeri and Armenian dance when it's also famous in Georgia. Which is why I suggested a sentence that just says where it originated and then where it is famous. It clears the sentence of all political

2) Exactly, it's not a dramatic improvement. It's just me switching places of some sentences to make the lead more clear to understand. I don't know what I have to do to convince you that my suggestion is not politically-motivated and that I have good faith. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 12:51, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For the second time, I have never said you as an editor do not have GF. As for me, I try to base my edits on the principle of WP:ATI and to genuinely improve certain articles. I am opposed to removing "is a lyrical Azerbaijani and Armenian dance" from the lead, because that is what Uzundara is. Why would we remove that information, considering that is what the article is about. That would be a disservice to readers and not an improvement. My recommendation (which I think would appease us both and would be more neutral/ culturally inclusive) is as follows:

Uzundara or Ouzoundara (Armenian: Ուզունդարա, Azerbaijani: Uzundərə, Georgian: უზუნდარა) is a lyrical Azerbaijani and Armenian dance traditionally preformed by women. The dance originates in a valley between Agdam and Goytapa in the Karabakh area. The name "Uzun dara", means Long valley in Azeri. Today, the dance is famous throughout the Caucasus region; in particular Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. The authors of the book "Azerbaijani folk dances" suggested that the dance has spread among the Armenians of Karabakh as a result of their residence in close neighborhood with Azeris.

Thoughts? Archives908 (talk) 13:31, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I'll make that the lead then. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 13:35, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Glad we put that to rest. Archives908 (talk) 13:57, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remember this consensus? Archives908 (talk) 15:02, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Archives908, avoid removing sourced content and free imagery. I adjusted the wording there, but full removal is at best disruptive. 185.81.81.122 (talk) 09:58, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adjusting the wording to suite a very particular POV. I guess you forgot to mention that? I suggest you thoroughly review WP:POV before calling other editors disruptive. Archives908 (talk) 12:21, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Archives908, how? If you have a problem with the wording, you can surely fix it. Why particularly remove third-party text saying that the dance is related to the Azeris? Please, quote why it is a POV, I wrote that it is [blank] author's opinion, how's that violating the guidelines? 185.81.81.122 (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Before changing the page again, think twice. Per WP:CONSENSUS, stable version is restored until consensus is achieved on talk. You aren't just "adding videos", your claims need exact quotes from the sources as it seems like you're synthesizing different sources from the Russian version of the article, trying to fit your POV. Until then, stable version of the article will remain. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Interfase I didn't say anything about the authors, them being musicologists isn't relevant to the issue we have. Source isn't just "printed in USSR", it's specifically printed in Soviet Azerbaijan, Baku. Hence why I said it's clearly biased and WP:UNDUE. And before making statements like "unconstructive editing" please try to assume good faith. Now I would like for you to explain you revert rationale. Regards, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:27, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the article there is a statement based on the Armenian ethnographer Srbuhi Lisitsian published in Yerevan that this dance "belong to the ancient motor dance fund of the Armenian people". But the most more reliable sources (e.g. articles about this dance in Big Soviet Encyclopedia, Big encyclopedic dictionary and Music Encyclopedia published in Moscow) claim that Uzundara is Azerbaijani dance also performed in Armenia and Georgia. That is why we need to show that there is also a statement that among the Armenians of Karabakh this dance was popular as a result of their residence in close neighborhood with Azerbaijanis. As per WP:WEIGHT. In other wise the note of Lisitsian also should be removed from the article. We can move this sentence to the section below, where Lisitsian's note is placed. --Interfase (talk) 10:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the article there is a statement based on the Armenian ethnographer Srbuhi Lisitsian – I'm sorry but that wasn't my question, please stay on topic. If you wish to discuss other source, please open a discussion for it. Besides, I already added third-party sources for Armenian claim.

That is why we need to show that there is also a statement that among the Armenians of Karabakh this dance was popular as a result of their residence in close neighborhood with Azerbaijanis. – Again, the source claiming that this dance was spread to Armenians of Karabakh from Azeris is an Azeri Soviet source published in Azerbaijan's capital Baku. Hence (again), it is WP:BIASED and cannot be used for claims of facts especially of contentious facts like you did in your revert. If you have a specific source saying "the dance was spread to Armenians from Karabakh Azeris" then present it in talk and we'll see if it's reliable, unbiased or not. Otherwise, if you're going to add the same biased source it will be disruptive, and I'll have no other choice but to report you. Hope you understand. Regards, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]