Talk:Islamism: Difference between revisions

Previous discussions on this article may be found here:

• Talk:Islamism/Archive 1
• Talk:Islamism/Delete
• Talk:Islamism/Archive 2
• Talk:Islamism/Archive 3

Should there be a history of the use of the word Islamism/Islamist? Andjam 14:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the term "Islamist" is in itself discriminatory, incites hate, and muddies the distinction between non-fundamentalists and others. No other religious fundamentalist is named after their religion, how about a Christianist? How are we to avert conflict with Muslims if we don't use proper vocabulary? I think a much more accurate and less confusing term would be Shariaist/Shariaism, after the word Sharia. (Sharism/Sharist is already taken from "to share")

People argue that the word Islamist has history. So what? So does "nigger", should we resurrect that word?

Lou Dobbs from CNN initially said he would use the term while I was still in college. I don't remember the exact date but it was between 2002-2003 when Lou Dobbs started his college tour. 24.7.141.159 15:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't the place to create new words. (BTW, there is an article on the word nigger) Thanks, Andjam 22:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems the "See Also" section is far too long. For one thing, listing all Islamist groups in this article seems unproductive. It would be better to have a new article "list of Islamist Groups" or something like that. Also, listing things like "Steven Emerson" and "Daniel Pipes" is really pushing the POV/NPOV line. There are plenty of people who specialize in Islamism - far too many to list in this article. Perhaps we can agree on a shorter list - say <10 items? Because of the controversy on this article, I would prefer to have some consensus on this before removing things. Comments please. --Vector4F 00:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

pushing the POV/NPOV line is an understatement. The whole list in 'External Links' is absolutely POV. Three articles of Daniel Pipes, the pope of anti-islamism, is two too many. More so when considering that there is a wikipage dedicated to Pipes, to which this article links. The other links are also contra-islamism. So, the list should be reduced (but not completely deleted of course). In order to balance all POVs and have NPOV, shouldn't there be at least one site which is sympathetic to islamism and one other which is critically inbetween pro and contra? -- ActiveSelective 20:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User Yuber made some changes to the 'See also' section. I actually think there should be a listing of islamist groups, especially in an article about islamism! Where else? I would like to see these changes reverted.

The 'External links' section, however, should be worked on. (see my contrib above) -- ActiveSelective 11:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cut down on the external links: 1 broken, 3 copies of other links, 1 promoting racist fear.

and I added a (imho very good) article on Islamism (The Prophet and the Proletariat): academic, both history and today, not pro, not contra, but critical of islamism

In total it is a bit less POV now, but still overwelmingly POV nevertheless: 5 contra-islamism (help fighting 'em), 3 suspicious of islamism (keep watching 'em), 1 critical (what are pro's and contra's?)

-- ActiveSelective 10:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The adding of rampant and off-topic links to articles is an editing method generally frowned upon in Wikipedia. I feel that this is harming and not helping the article. If you can say why you think these links [1] should remain and make it good, please do so. As it stands, it looks to me as an unacceptable attempt at diluting the article or moral relativism; additionally, we have no similar links to Islamist Terrorism at Christian Terrorism and the standard at Wikipedia is to keep your links ON topic.

I also think that the doubling-up of the Islamist Movements and See Also section needs some cleanup. There are redundancies there.Queeran

I think the links to the somewhat similar ideologies that have developed with other religions are important and useful. There is more than one facet to Islamism, it is both an Islamic idea and a political science idea. This can clearly be seen by looking at the categories the article is in: it is part of the Islam category tree, but also part of the political theory tree. Thus we link to somewhat related ideas within Islam, such as Jihad, Dhimmi, and Wahhabism. We should also link to somewhat related ideas in political science, such as Dominionism.

I do agree that the double listing of Islamist organizations is a problem, and I have thus removed them from the see also. I also removed the prominent Islamist thinkers from this list, as they are already given considerable mention within the text of the article. - SimonP 04:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You will need to explain why Dominionism is supposedly similar, I do not see the connection.Queeran

Both Islamism and Dominionism are ideologies that advocate basing government structures on religious ideals. - SimonP 15:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

However, [And_You_Are_Lynching_Negroes] is not a proper form of debate, and the links are off-topic. The relationship to these is adequately handled by the link to Theocracy. Queeran

As no one bothered to answer that, but users keep trying to reinsert those links, I have once again deleted them. Queeran

I agree with you, Dominionism should not be linked from this article. It's too specific, Islamism is wholly another thing (in context), and relating these two is the job of an article like Theocracy. --Vector4F 19:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Islamism has been coined by replacing the term Islamic fascism by many neo-conservative and anti-Muslim writers. The same way, they have also coined the term Islamist from Islamic fascist. Now these terms have been used by many writers to refer to any Islamic organization or any Muslim person. Most of the people with Muslim background have been refered to as Islamist they could be Muslim fundamentalist but they are not Islamic fascist. I would request that Wilikipedia review use of these two term and replace them with Islamic, Muslim, Islamic fundamentalism or Mulim fundamentalist as appropriate. The defination of fascism and fascist should also be reviewed in this context. I would be raising NPOV for every entry of Islamist and Islamism. User:Siddiqui 17:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that these issue(s) should be reviewed. I would support coordination to that effect - for example a cross-article consensus on the use of these terms - and I would be glad to participate. Clear terminology is in everyone's interests. On the issue of this specific article, do you have any examples of usage that you disagree with? I welcome another perspective. --Vector4F 23:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Was this not already covered somewhere else? In either event, I believe we should avoid weasel words. Queeran

As I've argued here in the past, the term "Islamism" and "Islamist" was not coined by neo-conservatives and has a long history in scholarly literature that is at least neutral with respect to Muslims (if not sympathetic), and means more or less what this article describes. I think what you meant to say was Islamists and Islamism have been relabeled by neo-cons as "Islamic fascism" or "Islamofascists". However, there really ought to be some term to describe people of this political persuasion that is NOT perjorative, and "Islamist" is it. The article on Islamofascism deals, I think, with perjorative connotations of that term. Is that not satisfactory? If not, why not? Graft 02:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely with what Graft states. This has become the standard term for this subject, and is not usually considered pejorative. - SimonP 03:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We do not agree. This matter has to be discussed furthur. The Islamist and Islamism is totally unacceptable. Each and every Muslim political organization and many Muslim leaders has been termed as "Islamist" which is untrue. Some organizations are fundamentalist but not involved in any militanncy yet they are termed as "Islamist". I will have to raise pov for each and every instance of use of these words in Wikipedia.

User:Siddiqui 18:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term does not indicate militancy, and that is not the way it is used in this article. Furthermore, it is absolutely untrue that "Each and every Muslim political organization ... has been termed as 'Islamist'". Even were this the case, what of it? I can find many examples of people ignorantly throwing labels around. I don't see how this reflects on the proper meaning of "Islamist". Graft 22:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Graft, SimonP, etc. It seems that the only definition of Islamism advanced in this article is that of a political position that advocates, to some degree, the application of Shar'ia. --Vector4F 00:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problem that none of you seem to understand is that, to Muslims, Islam is a complete way of life. Shar'ia is applied in many Muslim nations, including current United States allies such as Pakistan. The idea of splitting spiritual Islam from the actual way of life of Islam is a Western convention and shows a gross lack of understanding of the religion by the authors of this article. To that extent, if we are going to continue to use this term to define what amounts to a set of people who a militant perspective then we must clear state that Islam and Shar'ia cannot be split. Neglect of this fact shows that most, if not all, the authors of this article has biased. I'm also going to vote for NPOV and Unverified facts tags. 24.7.141.159 15:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will have to object to Siddiqui's claims. First of all, the term Islamist does not come from "Islamic Fascist" any more than the term "Communist" comes from "Communal Fascist" or any other idea. Even the term Fascist itself is derivative, meaning one who advocates a sort of governing system known as Fascism.

The term Islamist is used to describe someone who advocates Islam, the rule of Islam, or in particular the backwards Shari'a legal system that Islamic jurisprudence claims is "holy" law, in a particular nation or all over the world. Because of this, I have to agree with SimonP, Graft, and Vector4F on the matter.

As for "each and every Muslim political organization" being termed "Islamist", sadly, the term extends to many of them. Not all, and I do not believe all, but the vast majority because any organization which sends money to so-called mujahid anywhere in the world, any organization which advocates the entrance into secular law of islam-based crimes or punishments, can thereby be termed Islamist under this definition. In fact, there are probably some people who would say that you - because you are raising the objection of "POV" but are more concerned that the word is some form of an insult to Islam - might be termed an Islamist thereby yourself. Queeran

"For example, one needs to have a look at the lead definition of Islamism, Islamic Fundamentalism, Islamic world and Dhimmi. Wikipedia doesn’t say who coined the term “Islamism” and when. It rather says it is “a set of political ideologies” which “hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that should govern the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state.” Before making it the lead definition, did the editors give it a thought to verify and see why did the Qur’an called Islam a Deen for Muslims? If Islam is not a Deen—a way of life—what is it actually? And if it is a way of life, why should it not cover “legal, social and economic imperatives.” Interestingly, there is no entry for Deen in Wikipedia. There is only a reference to a Bosnian dancer by the name of Deen. The absence of Deen in Wikipedia is not for the reason that there is no space for Arabic entries or it is less important than other Arabic terms such as Riba. A proper definition of the word Deen with reference to the Qur’an will nullify the falsehood under Islamism." [2]

Can we create an article called Deen, and can we get the origin of the word Islamism into the article (from memory, I think it was Voltaire who first coined it)? - Ta bu shi da yu 21:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't give a lot of credit to the criticism (Wikipedia isn't a standards board), but this seems like a good reason for an article. It is very important to clarify terms. Unfortunately, I have no sources on where the term "Islamism" originates. --Vector4F 06:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A supermajority of determined participants at Wikipedia has the strength to impose their will regardless a neutral, scholarly perspective, but the fact that Islamism is the topic of an article hostile to political aspirations in much of the Islamic world, while Christianism redirects to a main article about the faith reveals the deep systematic bias of those who dominate this project. 12:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I never understand why people speak of systematic biases in such vague terms. It makes it sound like a conspiracy. Just be clear. What would you like to see changed and why? --Vector4F 06:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• "A supermajority of determined participants at Wikipedia has the strength to impose their will regardless a neutral, scholarly perspective" (from User:PilgrimsProgress) Is it just me or does that sound like a threat? Veej 06:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Either that or a plea to victimization. Regardless, one "ism" of a religion is not parallel to another "ism". We can't argue essential meanings here, just usage. --Vector4F 20:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to this topic, I've added NPOV tags. A reading of this talk page clearly shows that Vector4F has an axe to grind against proponents of Islam. I highly suggest looking at this link for how to balance this article out: Islamofascism#Criticism_of_the_use_of_the_term The same criticisms of that term apply to this Wikipedia article. Until that section is copied over or something similar added to counteract the bias here, I am going to vote to keep the NPOV tags on this article. The link section also needs a clean up because most, if not all, the external sites listed are largely Islamophobic orgs. 24.7.141.159 16:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please, that's either sarcasm or bad faith. Are you the poster who started this talk thread? Regardless, I still would like to know what anyone wants changed, i.e. specifics. For example, if the links are bad, pick a few you want to remove, justify why (without resorting to labeling to get your opinions across), and make the edit.

Also, if anyone has a problem with the term "Islamism", it would be great if they could provide some information on where it comes from and how it may be biased. Criticism works best with contributions. --Vector4F 21:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vector4F, it not sarcasm nor bad faith. I just have a desire to balance this article out a little bit more with the appropriate criticisms of the use of this term. The fact is that it seems like you're the guy in charge and I don't want to go about editing anything unless we talk about it first. I hope that sounds fair. The problem with the term "Islamism" is that it was coined in much the same way Islamofacism came about--mainly through western proponants post-9/11. I think the first hurdle is to decide whether we want "Islamism" to be defined in its classical sense as synonymous term for Muslim (a follower of Islam) or if we want to use the recent rise of of the negative connotaction of it. Let me know what you think. 24.7.141.159 04:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is ridiculous. First of all, the term is NOT a post-9/11 term. It was in use in scholarly literature well before then. Second, it would be absurd to define it in its "classical" sense as synonymous for Muslim, because that's absolutely not the point. This is a term to distinguish between those who see Islam as a political, economic, etc. system, and those who do not (e.g. secular Muslims). Benazir Bhutto is not an Islamist, though she is a Muslim. Graft 20:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Islam actually is a political, economic, etc. system by the mere fact that much of these systems and the rules governing them are present in the Qur'an. Ignoring this fact shows that you have never bothered picking up a translation for the Qur'an and are just ignorantly spewing non-sense on these pages. The idea of a "secular" Muslim is actually a very recent phenomenon and it's application is more of a side effect of the Western preception of religion rather than something touted in Islam itself. It's rather ironic that you cite Benazir Bhutto in your response because even she advocated government systems and laws rest on the Shari'a therefore making her an "Islamist" in your constipated definition. The NPOV tags are going back on. 24.7.141.159 15:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Following up my own comment with a speech Benazir Bhutto gave to the John F. Kennedy School of Government in 1997. link Here are two relavent paragraphs that completely dismantle Grafts non-sense.

"There are four democratic principles at the heart of Islam. The first is consultation, or Shura ; then, consensus, or Ijma ; and finally independent judgment, or Ijdaha . Instead of Islam being incompatible with democracy, our holy book makes it clear that the principle operations of the democratic process: consultation between the elected officials and the people; accountability of leaders to the people they serve, are fundamental to Islam. The holy book says that Islamic society is contingent on mutual advice, through mutual discussions, on an equal footing. Let me repeat that now: Equal footing. Ladies and gentleman, the Holy Koran is as committed to equality as it is to democracy. As committed to pluralism and tolerance as it is to order and doctrine. I know this is inconsistent with Western stereotypes. But, nevertheless, it is true. Consultation under the Holy Koran demands that public decisions are made by representative personalities. By men and by women who enjoy the confidence of the people and the integrity of their own character. Consensus provides a basis for majority rule. And, according to the Muslim scholar Luis Saffie , the legitimacy of the state depends upon the extent to which state organization and power reflect the will of the Omar , or the people."

Notice how Mrs. Bhutto continually refers to the Qur'an for consultation in political and social matters. Interesting isn't it?

"Western political scientists, these days, hypothesize populist strategies to create more effective forms of participatory democracy. But, Muslims do not believe they have to go back to the drawing board to conceptualize democratic order. It is right there in the holy book. Under Islam, we do not have to create a sense of community and individual responsibility. It is there in the holy book, itself. Enlightened Muslims find Western lectures on democracy condescending. Muslims need the West to acknowledge that dictatorship came out because of the strategic need to contain communism. Dictatorship did not come about because it was a part of Muslim faith or culture."

Again she referes to Muslims referring to the Qur'an as necessary. For Bhutton being a non-Islamist, she sure seems to talk a lot about a political system based on teachings in the Qur'an.

On women: "To those in the West who would condemn Islam for being anti-women, let me as the first Muslim woman elected Prime Minister of her country recall that three Muslim countries: Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Turkey have all had democratically elected women as head of their government. In other words, my friends, there is much that we can learn from each other. Islam and the West; the West and Islam, as we cross into a new century and into a new millennium."

And lastly, what I think Graft is completely missing is this: "So, let us decide to cast aside myths and stereotypes about each other. For Islam and for the West, it is time to attack the common and real enemies of our respective societies. These enemies are not people; they are ignorance and hatred. These enemies are not ethnic minorities; they are starvation and intolerance. Myopia and prejudice, whether it be religious, political, ethnic, gender or intellectual, are the common enemies of our hope for the twenty-first century. They are the fuel of the clash of civilization."

Pretty good for a speech writting in 1997 but Pakistan's first female head of state. The NPOV tags will stick around until we address concerns in this article. Graft, knowledge is an amazing thing and it would be in your best interest to go learn something before preaching ignorance here. 24.7.141.159 15:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Uh. Okay, so she makes references to the Qu'ran to justify her political stances, and so you call her an Islamist? Saddam Hussein quoted from the Qu'ran all the time. Are you going to say he's an Islamist now, too? Try again. Many reformist movements have made similar efforts to interpret the Qu'ran in ways sympathetic to their liberal politics. That doesn't make them Islamists - that makes them politically astute. Someone who says that modern parliamentary democracy - not a traditional Islamic legal system - is compatible with Islam is decided NOT an Islamist by my 'constipated' definition. Compare that with Hassan al-Banna, etc., whose primary goal was a restoration of the Caliphate. If you're putting both these people in the same boat, I would say you need to hone your powers of discrimination. Graft 23:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if you have access to it, I suggest you search through JSTOR or something similar to satisfy yourself about the use of the term 'Islamist' in scholarly literature, WELL before 9/11. Graft 23:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read anything I wrote or did you just skim it? Did you both reading the entire speech or have knowledge of the entire works of Bhutto? It sure doesn't seem like it from your response. You said above:

This is a term to distinguish between those who see Islam as a political, economic, etc. system, and those who do not (e.g. secular Muslims). Benazir Bhutto is not an Islamist, though she is a Muslim.

I hate to burst your bubble but I pretty much proved that Mrs. Bhutto has always believed in Islam being the ultimate governing priciple in Pakistan. Hence, your little blurb is a contradiction. On one hand you refer to the idea of a "secular" Muslim which has never been defined the confines of Islamic scripture. Rather this is an ethnocentric interpretation of religion at the hands of someone (read: you) that has dealt with the separation of secular and spiritual division. Islam is *NOT* like that. Then, when I clearly show you Mrs. Bhutto referring to consultation of the Qur'an for determining a system of government, you back track by saying Mrs. Bhutto is politically astute by interpret[ing] the Qu'ran in ways sympathetic to [her] liberal politics. Right. If you ever meet Mrs. Bhutto, you should directly ask her if she is interpreting the Qur'an or if she's following 1400 years worth of Islamic political history. Her answer will be the latter which, again, disagrees with your view point. Your definition of Islamist is, from the outset, flawed because you don't know what an Islamic political system is supposed to be and when someone like Bhutto cites the Qur'an you quickly change your definition.

The best part of your response was this: Someone who says that modern parliamentary democracy - not a traditional Islamic legal system - is compatible with Islam is decided NOT an Islamist... Your lack of knowledge on both Islamic history and Islam itself comes through quite clear. I must ask you to tell all of us in Wikipedia-land to cite passages from primary Islamic sources (i.e. Qur'an and verified Hadith/Sunnah) to support such an outlandish claim. The fact of the matter is you can't and therefore your definition of Islamist is completely incorrect and not rooted in established Islamic text. For example, chapter (Surah) 42 of the Qur'an is titled "Consultation" and portions of that chapter are what Mrs. Bhutto was referring to. A little over a thousand and a half years ago, Surah 42 established the idea of consultation of the masses to determine a leader. That is just one tiny example from hundreds I could cite.

If you frown upon "Islamists" who view the Qur'an as a source of political doctrine, but the Qur'an itself leans towards what you call parliamentary democracy which I assume you also believe, then does that mean you are also an Islamist (by your definition)?

I find your desire to differentiate Hasan al-Banna from Mrs. Bhutto to also be ignorant. If you are aware of what Hasan al-Banna stood for, then the Bhutto speech I linked earlier should sound very familiar. Why? Because many of the same tenants certal to al-Banna's writings are echoed in Bhutto's words. Remember, al-Banna was influential because he was able to deliver the message of reformists of the time and those who came before him to the people. Many of Bhutto's policies echo thinkers the same thinkers al-Banna put forth such as Afghani, Kamil, Abduh, Rida, and Arsalan.

Lastly, I leave you with a few choice quotes from an article written by Mrs. Bhutto in 1995 for Asiaweek:

"In an age when no country, no system, no community gave women any rights, in a society where the birth of a baby girl was regarded as a curse, where women were considered chattel, Islam treated women as individuals. "Believers, men and women are mutual friends. They enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil," says the Koran (12:71). Long ago Islam gave women rights that modern nations have conceded grudgingly and only under pressure."

She then discusses matters of Women in Islam with citations from the Qur'an throughout. Bhutto then concludes with:

"The fact that at present three Muslim countries have female heads of government gives assurance that the problems of women in Islamic societies can be seriously addressed. We, as women leaders, regard it as our religious and political duty to lead the struggle to restore the women's dignity that has been divinely defined for us in the Holy Koran. May we succeed."

As an elected Muslim woman running a nation, she used the equality preached in the Qur'an to guide her policies. Again, but your constipated definition, she is just another "Islamist" but the fact is that Islam cannot be separated from its concept of din or way of life. This includes Islamic influence on politics, economics, and general social policy. In my opinion, Bhutto is just another Muslim representing the majority. So now you can either call Bhutto an "Islamist" as well as indirectly labeling all 1 billion Muslims (or about a fifth of the world's population) or you can change your definition of the term.

Last but not least, just because JSTOR or any other archive of "scholarly" works references Islamist does not mean it is a widely accepted or proper term. The term became commonplace and was resurected post-9/11 because Islamophobes were search for a way to label their new enemy since those pinko commies were gone. By the way, archives or scholarly works as refer to followers of Islam as "Muhammadans" which is incorrect because Muslims do not worship Prophet Muhammad. However, by your logic, because the term appears then it is completely correct and appropriate. I'd suggest picking up Edward Said's "Orientalism" before you return to this discussion. The NPOV tags still stay because the article hasn't been fixed yet. Have a good day. 24.7.141.159 09:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]