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: Or for example in Christianity there are some who believe that God is three in one whereas others believe the trinity is false. How is it possible to give an overview of God when people in the same religions can even agree? Please explain that. [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:PassaMethod|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 17:58, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
: Or for example in Christianity there are some who believe that God is three in one whereas others believe the trinity is false. How is it possible to give an overview of God when people in the same religions can even agree? Please explain that. [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:PassaMethod|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 17:58, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
::Like any analogy, my silly banana example breaks down if you stretch it too far :-). In the case that many disagree on something, I believe the best solution is to present a general overview on what most people generally ''do'' agree on. Regardless of one's religion, the word ''God'' generally conjures up the idea of a being who is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. etc. That is what the Lead should talk about: not the smaller details that nobody can agree on (trinity, whether God has a corporal body, etc.). <span style="font-family:times; font-size:10.2pt">~[[User:Adjwilley|Adjwilley]]</span> <span style="font-family:times; font-size:7pt">([[User talk:Adjwilley|talk]])</span> 18:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:12, 13 July 2012

Former good articleGod was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 22, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
December 13, 2005Good article nomineeListed
February 15, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
March 15, 2012Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Delisted good article


Hadith: "I am Time, in My hand is the night and the day"

Um...yes...that is a Hadith...did you have a suggestion regarding the content of that Hadith being properly synthesized into encyclopedic format that you wanted to share with us on the talk page about improvement of the article? Peter Deer (talk) 12:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

Instead of saying in a hatnote "For the Arabic version of this concept, see Allah" why not do as we do in other articles where different names apply and write a paragraph which covers some of these other names: Allah, YHVH, etc. -Stevertigo (t | c) 04:55, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, what's more the "Allah" page discusses the word, whereas God in Islam is the actual discussion of the concept. No, it's definitely not encyclopedic to have that in the hatnote, I'm just gonna remove it. Peter Deer (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well to be fair, if were going to remove that hatnote we should get started on the additional paragraph on nomenclature. I'll give it a shot. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 01:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK Ive cobbled together a basic introductory paragraph on the names of God, with plenty of links. Any suggestions are welcome. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 02:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seems fairly straightforward. I'd almost submit that the names and significance of names merits its own paragraph, but I also think that the subject merits inclusion in the lede. Peter Deer (talk) 04:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK. -Stevertigo (t | c) 05:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Capital "G"

  • Please refer here first before undoing the parenthetical note about capitalization in the first sentence. This is standard in English writing and is used to differentiate the so-called "one" God from the more generic word meaning "deity." Wolfdog (talk) 00:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I moved it to etymology Pass a Method talk 00:39, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Recent changes to the Lead

I noticed that there have been several recent changes to the Lead, which I believe have a number of problems. First, the Lead has been transformed from being a general overview on the subject of "God" to being an essay about what theists, agnostics, atheists, deists, pantheists, polytheists, henotheists, medieval philosophers, and modern philosophers believe about God. The result seems to be an article that sounds more controversial than it actually is: that is, an article that would debate the existence of God(s) rather than simply say what God is conceived to be. (For instance, it goes without saying that "atheists believe that no deities exist", and we don't need to have that in the first paragraph of the Lead.) Additionally, "Allah" has been dropped as one of the names of God, while the "Tetragrammaton" has been kept, favoring a Judeo-Christian point of view.

On a related note, the new section on "Evolution vs creationism" that was added today is using this article as a WP:COATRACK, in my opinion. It is, in effect, hanging the controversial debate of evolution/creationism on an article where it's only tangentially related. The evolution debate should be mentioned in the article, perhaps in the See Also section, but it should not get its own subsection, and it should definitely not be under the section "General conceptions". ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:36, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are several problems with the current lede. Firstly, only half of the worlds population follows an Abrahamic religion however, three of the three lede paragraphs currently discuss God from an Abrahamic point of view. Adjwilley, can you you explain why you prefer this POV version of the lede? Pass a Method talk 18:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Christianity and Islam make up more than half of the world population, and the next largest religion is Secular/non-religious/Atheist/Agnostic [1]. Additionally, the scope of this article is "God" in the context of monotheism and henotheism, which definitely excludes Hinduism (the next largest religion), and arguably some of the Chinese traditional religions, and Buddhism. So the large majority of believers in God (singular) are in fact adherents of Abrahamic religions. Also, since the concept of a single deity is historically tied to Abrahamic religions, they should receive more weight in the article. Additionally, I would be careful saying that the Lead discusses God from an Abrahamic point of view. The Abrahamic view is that "God created humans and the universe", while the article is careful to say, "God is often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of humans and the universe." ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:50, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Im am dissapointed with your response since it is very biased. If this bias (such as aiming to exclude Hinduism/Buddhism from this article) continues on this talk page i will resort to raising your username at WP:AN/I or another noticeboard.
Firstly, this article is not about monotheism and henotheism. Secondly the concept of monotheism long predates Abrahamic religions, for example zoroastrianism. Thirdly, there are dozens of different denominations within both Islam and Christianity many of whom have different god concepts. Fourthly, this source states that slightly more than half of people follow Judaism/Christianity/Islam/Bahá’í faith. Even within Abrahamic religions, many of those follow it in a syncretic form. Fifthly, only a imbecile would call atheism/agnosticism a "religion". Even a kindergartener knows that atheism/agnosticism are not religions. Your infantile responses are getting really tiresome. Your above post also indicate that you think Abrahamic views on God are homogenous, when in fact they are not.
Furthermore, there are many reasons to reduce Abrahamic weight in the lede; there already is an article entirely devoted to the Abrahamic God (see God in Abrahamic religions). Why do we need a replicate? There are also already multiple articles focusing or related to an Abrahamic God, (i.e. Abrahamic religions, God the Father, Omnipotence, Creationism, God of Abraham, monotheism, Throne of God, trinity, God in Islam, Godhead in Christianity, Great Architect of the Universe, Personal god, God the Sustainer, God in Christianity, People of the Book, Intelligent designer, Nontrinitarianism, Tawhid, etc.) Why do we need more of that here? There are many other concepts of God besides the Abrahamic one, such as the Egyptian, the indigenous religion, Dharmic, neo-pagan, new age religion, Confucianism, Zeus etc. Why do they not deserve a mention? Per WP:LEAD, the lede should briefly summarize the rest of the article - your version doesn't do that.
Also, some denominations of Buddhism and Hinduism do actually have a henotheistic view of God, therefore by your criteria, they should be in the lede.
Your version also deletes sourced content and ignores the fact that the word "god" has various definitions. The evolution/creationism section is not a coatrack but lines more closely with WP:WINAC. The evolution debate in my opinion does deserve a sub-section since it is a major topics of discussion in both academic and legal circles. Although i agree it does not belog in the "general conceptions" section. As for the atheism in the lede. I strongly support its inclusion because the meaning of atheism is not always understood by everyone. A "general overview" should include whats mentioed in the article body, per WP:LEAD (as i already said above).
I have reverted you partially as a compromise and reworded the article to address some of your concerns. However i would appreciate it if you could avoid mass reverts since such edits can be seen as provocative. It would be more constructive if you opened seperate discussions, one for the lede, and for the body so we can discuss this until we reach an agreement. I have removed what i think you might have meant about controversial aspects and i am open to making more concessions. Pass a Method talk 07:00, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm...a lot of straw man arguments above...You're putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said, and attributing ideas to me that aren't mine. It's probably best to break the discussion up into sections to cover the various points. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of article

The scope of the article is currently "God" in the context of monotheism and henotheism. If you don't believe me, read the hatnotes. If you would like to change the scope of the article, then you should so state on the talk page and gain consensus for your change. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Evolution vs Creationism

I stated before that an entire section on "Evolution vs creationism" is using this article as a WP:COATRACK. It is a controversial debate that is an extension of the debate on whether or not God exists. It is tangentially related, but should not be "hung" on this article, because it's not about "God". You sated: "The evolution/creationism section is not a coatrack but lines more closely with WP:WINAC. The evolution debate in my opinion does deserve a sub-section since it is a major topics of discussion in both academic and legal circles." WINAC says that when an event is the subjects main claim to notability then the article can give more weight to the event. Are you saying that one of God's main claims to notability is that he/she happens to be mentioned frequently in debates on evolution vs creationism? </humor> ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Im saying one of Gods main claims to fame is creationism. Even this current lede reflects my opinion since it says God is a creator. The most notable opposing view rests on evolution. Nevertheless i am willing to drop thi for now, and i might have an RfC on the issue at a later date. Pass a Method talk 17:33, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Minor correction: the Lead says God is often conceived of as being a creator. I also support dropping this for the moment, as it may work itself out as we discuss the other sections. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:40, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Your rewrite of the Lead is still inappropriate for many reasons. It still makes it into an essay about what the many many groups think, while failing to give an adequate overview of the subject itself. If I were writing an article about Bananas, I would say what bananas are. I wouldn't write an essay saying that group A likes bananas, group B hates bananas, group C doesn't care, group D grows them, group E boycotts them, group F denies that they exist.

Also, another problem with your edit is that you are changing the meaning of sentences that are cited to sources. You changed the sentence "God is either the sole deity in monotheism or the monist deity in polytheism" to "God usually refers to either the single deity in monotheism or one of the plural deities in polytheism". There is a big difference between a "monist deity in polytheism" and "one of the plural deities in polytheism". I'll bet the source only supports one of the statements, and I'll bet that it's not your rewrite.

That said, I agree with you that the Lead needs some work, and I'm willing to make some concessions as well. It could use less about the names of God, and as you have pointed out, it could use less of a focus on Abrahamic views. I'm going to revert your edit, and then see what I can do from there. I'd prefer, though, to start from the old, consensus version, because it's more likely to be quoting the sources accurately. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your analogy of a banana is very poor. 100% of people on Earth agree that bananas grow from cultivated plants. Theres nobody who says fresh bananas typically cant be eaten. Theres nobody who says bananas are typically rectangularly shaped. Theres nobody who says bananas can communicate with human beings on an interpersonal level. The difference between bananas and HGod is that humans roughly agree on bananas, however views on God vary to almost an extreme extent.
It is impossible to give an normal overview of God since people within the same religion cannot even agree on what God is! For example in Islam you have Sufis who believe learned humans or graves can intercede with God, whereas Salafis believe this is a huge sin. Also, Sunnis believe that God has human-like attributes (hands, feet etc.) whereas Shias believe its a sin to believe that.
Or for example in Christianity there are some who believe that God is three in one whereas others believe the trinity is false. How is it possible to give an overview of God when people in the same religions can even agree? Please explain that. Pass a Method talk 17:58, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Like any analogy, my silly banana example breaks down if you stretch it too far :-). In the case that many disagree on something, I believe the best solution is to present a general overview on what most people generally do agree on. Regardless of one's religion, the word God generally conjures up the idea of a being who is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. etc. That is what the Lead should talk about: not the smaller details that nobody can agree on (trinity, whether God has a corporal body, etc.). ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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