Talk:Battle of Achelous (1359): Difference between revisions

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Rated as stub as there is little information given about the battle, just context. On a related point, wikipedia doesn't list another Battle of Achelous, so date disambiguation isn't required, unless there are concerns about confusion with the Battle of Acheloos.Monstrelet (talk) 08:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the present form of the article, suffers from serious historical inaccuracies. Some examples:

• these two Despotates are named 'independent', where is this written? actually accordint to this [[1]] the Albanian tribesmen obtained the titles of Despot from the Serbian ruler.
• "After defeating Orsini the Albanians captured Arta and other towns, establishing two independent states", well this is wrong too: Arta submitted to Symeon after beeing threteaned by the Albanian tribesmen and followingly Symeon agreed to divide Aetolia (and south Epirus) between the two Albanian tribesmen (Boua&Losha) [[[[2]] (p. 350).

This blind revert policy, hiding specific historical events, and giving the wrong summary 'pointy' is simply unacceptable. [[3]]Alexikoua (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After checking the current sources the article seems to have additional inaccuracies: according to this:[[4]] 'due to their tribal structure, the Albanian tribes that settled in the region didn't replace any existing Greek or Serbian rule with an Albanian state.' it seems the lead needs some rewording accoring to this.Alexikoua (talk) 09:24, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• 1)where the Albanians were able to take over Arta and other after defeating Nicephorus II

2)read pages 350-51 of Antwerp. By 1366-67 Albanians controlled all of Epirus except the city of Ioannina.

There is no dispute since the sources are precise so please don't insist on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:51, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added per source with the parts you omitted to quote the Simeon Uros involvement. Thus the dispute has been resolved and the tag can be removed.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The two issues i've initially mentioned above: (After defeating Orsini the Albanians captured Arta and other towns & the independent Despotates) are still complete wp:or according to the sources.Alexikoua (talk) 09:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• 1)the Albanians were able to take over Arta and other towns after defeating Nicephorus II

2)read pages 350-51 of Antwerp. By 1366-67 Albanians controlled all of Epirus except the city of Ioannina, but since that is your main objection I replaced independent states with despotates

There is no dispute since the sources are precise so please don't insist on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:51, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Still can't understand what you mean idontlikeit here, the article had several inacurracies, but mysteriously you insist on blind reverting with the wrong summary 'pointy'. By the way you seem avoid this piece of information, which is quite important for the context: "The towns of Epirus were threatened by the Albanian tribesmen, so Nicephorus' cities of Arta and Jannina , as well as various lesser towns, quickly submitted to Symeon." without a clear reason [[5]]. To sum up: Arta wasn't simply captured by the Albanians, but given to them after agreement with Symeon. This sequence of historical events is quite clear and I don't see why we should hide specific parts of the story that need to be mentioned Alexikoua (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You should judge that quote in comparison to the rest of the page mainly Symeon being unable to confront them and that by 1366 they controlled most of the area.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I said, there is no need to hide specific facts that are essential for the context. To take it simple the sequence is: 1. B. of Acheloous->2. local towns submit to the Serbian ruler Symeon in order to avoid Albanian domination->3. Symeon isn't interrested in Epirus settles in Thessalia->4.Symeon offers the title of Despot to 2 Albanian tribesmen +specific regions (Arta, Aetolia)->5.establishemnt of Albanian Despotates.

For a reason I can't explain you say that points 2 and 3 (and partially 4) shouldn't be mentioned. Off course this results in historical inaccuracies.Alexikoua (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're ommiting the part that Symeon is unable to confront them>after leaving his counsellors were unable to confront them>Symeon agrees to their demands trying to maintain indirect control.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's part of point 3. (more pecicesly: Symeon isn't interested to rule Epirus directly due to the anarchy that ruled in the region). 2., the precceding event, is still needed, because in fact Albanian tribes didn't control Arta and other cities before approval of Symeon (first sentence of aftermath section is chronologically wrong->in fact wp:or) Alexikoua (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some readjustments, hope everything is ok. Aftermath section corrected according to the right historical sequence of events.Alexikoua (talk) 16:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]