Talk:Battle of Achelous (1359): Difference between revisions

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A fact from Battle of Achelous (1359) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 25 May 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that Nikephoros II Orsini was killed during the Battle of Achelous and his whole army was destroyed by Albanian forces, marking the end of the Orsini dynasty in the Despotate of Epirus? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/May.

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Rated as stub as there is little information given about the battle, just context. On a related point, wikipedia doesn't list another Battle of Achelous, so date disambiguation isn't required, unless there are concerns about confusion with the Battle of Acheloos.Monstrelet (talk) 08:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the present form of the article, suffers from serious historical inaccuracies. Some examples:

• these two Despotates are named 'independent', where is this written? actually accordint to this [[1]] the Albanian tribesmen obtained the titles of Despot from the Serbian ruler.
• "After defeating Orsini the Albanians captured Arta and other towns, establishing two independent states", well this is wrong too: Arta submitted to Symeon after beeing threteaned by the Albanian tribesmen and followingly Symeon agreed to divide Aetolia (and south Epirus) between the two Albanian tribesmen (Boua&Losha) [[[[2]] (p. 350).

This blind revert policy, hiding specific historical events, and giving the wrong summary 'pointy' is simply unacceptable. [[3]]Alexikoua (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After checking the current sources the article seems to have additional inaccuracies: according to this:[[4]] 'due to their tribal structure, the Albanian tribes that settled in the region didn't replace any existing Greek or Serbian rule with an Albanian state.' it seems the lead needs some rewording accoring to this.Alexikoua (talk) 09:24, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• 1)where the Albanians were able to take over Arta and other after defeating Nicephorus II

2)read pages 350-51 of Antwerp. By 1366-67 Albanians controlled all of Epirus except the city of Ioannina.

There is no dispute since the sources are precise so please don't insist on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:51, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added per source with the parts you omitted to quote the Simeon Uros involvement. Thus the dispute has been resolved and the tag can be removed.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The two issues i've initially mentioned above: (After defeating Orsini the Albanians captured Arta and other towns & the independent Despotates) are still complete wp:or according to the sources.Alexikoua (talk) 09:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• 1)the Albanians were able to take over Arta and other towns after defeating Nicephorus II

2)read pages 350-51 of Antwerp. By 1366-67 Albanians controlled all of Epirus except the city of Ioannina, but since that is your main objection I replaced independent states with despotates

There is no dispute since the sources are precise so please don't insist on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:51, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Still can't understand what you mean idontlikeit here, the article had several inacurracies, but mysteriously you insist on blind reverting with the wrong summary 'pointy'. By the way you seem avoid this piece of information, which is quite important for the context: "The towns of Epirus were threatened by the Albanian tribesmen, so Nicephorus' cities of Arta and Jannina , as well as various lesser towns, quickly submitted to Symeon." without a clear reason [[5]]. To sum up: Arta wasn't simply captured by the Albanians, but given to them after agreement with Symeon. This sequence of historical events is quite clear and I don't see why we should hide specific parts of the story that need to be mentioned Alexikoua (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You should judge that quote in comparison to the rest of the page mainly Symeon being unable to confront them and that by 1366 they controlled most of the area.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I said, there is no need to hide specific facts that are essential for the context. To take it simple the sequence is: 1. B. of Acheloous->2. local towns submit to the Serbian ruler Symeon in order to avoid Albanian domination->3. Symeon isn't interrested in Epirus settles in Thessalia->4.Symeon offers the title of Despot to 2 Albanian tribesmen +specific regions (Arta, Aetolia)->5.establishemnt of Albanian Despotates.

For a reason I can't explain you say that points 2 and 3 (and partially 4) shouldn't be mentioned. Off course this results in historical inaccuracies.Alexikoua (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're ommiting the part that Symeon is unable to confront them>after leaving his counsellors were unable to confront them>Symeon agrees to their demands trying to maintain indirect control.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's part of point 3. (more pecicesly: Symeon isn't interested to rule Epirus directly due to the anarchy that ruled in the region). 2., the precceding event, is still needed, because in fact Albanian tribes didn't control Arta and other cities before approval of Symeon (first sentence of aftermath section is chronologically wrong->in fact wp:or) Alexikoua (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some readjustments, hope everything is ok. Aftermath section corrected according to the right historical sequence of events.Alexikoua (talk) 16:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't understand the meaning to add translations of a medieval military event: it doesn't fall to any wp:NC policy and it's useless to the reader whether it is modern Albanian or Greek. I wouldn't object however an addition if those alternative names were used in contemporary literature. As far I know even the precise location of the conflict is unknown (it was perhaps somewhere in Akarnania).Alexikoua (talk) 03:19, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See the Battle of Kosovo, Battle of Sarantaporo, Battle of Pente Pigadia, Battle of Yenidje, Battle of Elli, Battle of Lemnos (1913), Battle of Bizani, etc etc. Of course there are also many examples of the opposite, in which articles about battles do not have translations. Nonetheless, there is no protocol it seems regarding their inclusion or exclusion, so unless you have a policy-based argument as to why the Albanian translation should be removed, it's probably best you RV yourself, or I can add it back. Up to you. Botushali (talk) 06:37, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In general, it is useless to have translations of titles that are generic descriptive terms and not really proper names. The English reader doesn't need to be told how you say "battle of ..." in Albanian – if the reader knows Albanian, they will already know this; if they don't, they will never care; either way, that's not really an encyclopedic fact about this battle but a trivial piece of lexicon info about a language. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:40, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Alexikoua. Before I begin, I just want to say that I do not necessarily disagree with the sentence you removed as its not too relevant to the point where I feel that I need to participate in an edit war over the matter. Also, your additions from Fine's work are a nice touch to the aftermath section that bridges the gap between Nikephoros' death and the creation of the Albanian Despotates. However, I take issue with the substandard sentences you keep reinstating on the article. Perhaps they make sense to you, but they are very poorly written and do not make perfect sense to native English speakers, not to mention your personal additions of terms such as "temporary" which are not even present in the source itself. There are issues with grammar and syntax which I believe can be rectified without sacrificing source precision (which seems to be your primary concern). I have gone through Fine's work and I have added additions throughout the whole article. I've utilised him in the Aftermath section in an even more precise and extensive way than you did. Everything is as according to the source and actually makes sense, now.

I also take issue with you adding "allegedly barbarous Albanians" on the article, because that term is used in the context of the description of Albanians in contemporary Greco-Byzantine sources (especially with the added context of Ioannina being viewed as a centre of Byzantine Imperial ideology, as is indicated by Osswald's source). If the "allegedly barbarous Albanians" destroyed the Greco-Serbian forces in Epirus, does that make the Greek men weak and helpless in comparison to the Albanians who prevailed over them multiple times? Politically charged terminology should be avoided for this very reason - something like Contemporary Greek sources depicted the Albanians as barbarous... is much more in line with WP:NPOV, but you'd have to get a source for that as it is not what Osswald explictly says. Botushali (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

""Contemporary Greek sources depicted the Albanians as barbarous... is precisely how high quality scholarship describes the historical context. Nothing POV at all.Alexikoua (talk) 05:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]