Talk:Canadian Indian residential school gravesites: Difference between revisions

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: Moved, 27 June 2021, from 2021 Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries to Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries, see discussion. Moved to Canadian Indian residential school gravesites, 4 July 2021, from Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries to Canadian Indian residential schools gravesites, see discussion.

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I see Moxy has provided a cite for the Department of Indian Affairs in the lead. From the earlier edit note, I think Elinruby was also asking about the name of the federal agency. It's a bit complicated.

Over the course of a century, it went over a number of names. Under the Indian Act of 1876, the first federal legislation on the topic continued the office of "Superintendent of Indian Affairs", with a Deputy Superintendent. There doesn't appear to have been a Department of Indian Affairs at that time. By the Revised Statutes of Canada 1927, there was a Department of Indian Affairs. At some time between then and the Revised Statutes of Canada 1952, Indian Affairs got rolled into the Department of Citizenship, but then at some later point it re-emerged as a separate Department. By 1970, it was called the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Revised Statutes of Canada 1970; Revised Statutes of Canada 1985, as originally proclaimed). By 2019, it got re-named to Department of Indigenous Services.

Given all those name changes, I think for the purposes of this article, it is best to refer throughout to the "Department of Indian Affairs", since that's the name it was generally known as, in relation to the residential schools. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 16:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good enough, at least for me. I really just want to know the COMMONNAME. There is a separate issue with whole bunches of gratuitous uses of "Indian" but let's prioritize the misrepresented sources right now. The article was just disastrously re-written as I guess you may have gathered. Elinruby (talk) 17:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to get rid of the repetition of "funded by" in the lede here: The Canadian Indian residential school system[nb 1] was a network of boarding schools for Indigenous children directed and funded by the Department of Indian Affairs.[2] Administered by various Christian churches and funded by the Canadian government from 1828 to 1997 Canadian Indian residential school system attempted to assimilate Indigenous children into Euro-Canadian culture but based on the above section it was not the Department of Indian Affairs for the entire 1828-1997 period. Despite my dislike of the word "Indian" in the agency name, which is now regarded as racist, I am open to the argument that it was historically the COMMONNAME. I would like to improve this awkward bit of writing however, and the only way I currently see of doing this would be The Canadian Indian residential school system[nb 1] was a network of boarding schools for Indigenous children administered by various Christian churches and funded by the Canadian government from 1828 to 1997 Canadian, which attempted to assimilate Indigenous children into Euro-Canadian culture. Posting here since some people seem to want to preserve the mention of the agency name. Open to suggestions. Elinruby (talk) 21:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As of May 2024, investigations into the reported mass graves at the Kamloops Indian Residential School in British Columbia have ended with no conclusive evidence of such graves.^[1] Despite significant resources invested in various investigative efforts, including fieldwork, archival searches, and securing the school site, no human remains have been found. Carolane Gratton, spokesperson for the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations confirmed the allocation of $7.9 million for these endeavors. In a statement, the Tk'emlups te Secwepemc First Nation reiterated their focus on the scientific work required but declined to discuss the $7.9 million allocation.^[2]

I am not overly fussed about this either way, but that is what I was thinking. Not sure I understand the conversation we are having, but it isn't that I don't see the source. Elinruby (talk) 21:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also there seems to currently seems to be some repetition in the first paragraph of the lede. Since it looks like you are working on that section I am going to leave you to it for now and go work on the source discussions at RSN. Would like to talk about the Church fires and and Reactions sections at some point. Not sure they are due. Elinruby (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also this But am I misreading the references on the wiki article? Nowhere in the Aleteia article at.is "St. Kateri Tekakwitha Church in Indian Brook, Nova Scotia". Lostsandwich (talk) 18:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC) seems like a worthy question, but I can only see that source on my phone, which I am not on right now, so since you offer it would be great if you could verify that. If not it is something I am trying to get back to on Chrome. Elinruby (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to let others respond... as I have stated before I simply don't understand the majority of your posts. Are these AI generated or a translator used? Moxy🍁 21:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Elinruby is referring to a failed-verification passage from 2021 Canadian church burnings. That material was removed by the editor who initially realized the issue. I have now restored it using a CBC article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yes he just changed the source for the Nova Scotia claim. I no longer need you to double check that it failed verification, thanks anyway. As for the rest of what you said: I am not certain that you grasp the entire issue yet. But the point is moot, the source does fail verification and was removed. Elinruby (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But since we are here, it seems like you really want the article to say that the House of Commons passed a resolution urging the government to take action or something. The House of Commons is the legislative branch of government. (?) Elinruby (talk) 22:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure this is the article to educate people on how the House of Commons works .... but basics are at "The Role of the House of Commons". Learn About Parliament. Moxy🍁 22:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)t[reply]

yeah was just coming in to say that ok, I see that sources say it, fine. I will check that link out later Elinruby (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is resolved Elinruby (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The residential school system was established by Christian missionaries with the express purpose of converting Indigenous children to Christianity,^[1]

source does not say this Elinruby (talk) 22:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What the source says is: "Residential schools were created by Christian churches and the Canadian government as an attempt to both educate and convert Indigenous youth and to assimilate them into Canadian society." The statement from Wikipedia (above) is a paraphrase. So the question is to what extent is it unfaithful to the original. _signed, Willondon (talk) 23:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Missionaries are mentioned twice. One of those times it even says that the first schools were founded by French missionaries. But there was an agreement elsewhere on this page that the French system is a different animal and the source says the French wanted to feed them not convert them. I'm not saying I necessarily believe that but that is what the source says. So it does not support the statement that other missionaries founded the system "with the express purpose of converting Indigenous children to Christianity." I am also pretty sure that the government was more interested in assimilation than conversion.

To be clear, this source is fine as far as it goes. It just does not support the statement in front of it. My issues with the statement in front of it: Pretty sure from the conversation we just had in the other section that the government founded the school system. "Express purpose" might be sourceable for the government, perhaps. Elinruby (talk) 23:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Religion was a major part of assimilating Indigenous peoples on both sides of the border.... It's why it's referred to as a cultural genocide.[1] The French wanted to free them from what.... their families? basic info Moxy🍁 23:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That reaction is why I explicitly said I'm not saying I necessarily believe that but that is what the source says. What the source does however say is: The first residential facilities were developed in New France by Catholic missionaries to provide care and schooling. Please remember that we are talking about what the source says not what I personally believe, which is that schools were a rather cynical tactic whose goal was assimilation and were gleefully perpetuated when the system proved lethal. You seem to think I want to deny that there was anything wrong with the schools, which is far from the case, and makes it hard to discuss things with you. So let's start over. I actually believe that "cultural genocide" is a euphemism in the Canadian context. Please stop trying to convince me of the genocidal intent. I am already there, and it's annoying.

I just think that an article that gets messed with as much as this one does, on the regular, should at least *try* to be properly cited to begin with. The statement is not in the source provided. I am ok with changes to either the statement or the source provided. Maybe you could scan the article history, that might help also. Most of this has been happening in edit summaries.Elinruby (talk) 23:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To me the source is clear... quote= "The purpose of residential schools was to educate and convert Indigenous youth and to assimilate them into Canadian society......The government therefore collaborated with Christian missionaries to encourage religious conversion..." Perhaps the actual encyclopedia page would help? Moxy🍁 23:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tsk and after I just typed all that, too. Elinruby (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

where in the source does it say The residential school system was established by Christian missionaries with the express purpose of converting Indigenous children to Christianity?

I feel like the Wikipedia integrity defenders need to untangle the current circular firing squad. I am going to go do something else for a while. Elinruby (talk) 00:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you not see the source. Quote = "Residential schools were created by Christian churches and the Canadian government as an attempt to both educate and convert Indigenous youth and to assimilate them into Canadian society" Moxy🍁 11:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Christian missionaries, BY DEFINITION, are attempting to convert people to Christianity. Do you really need this explained to you?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you really need it explained to you that this is not what the source says? "Christian churches and the Canadian government" is not "Christian missionaries" and what the source says about "Christian missionaries" is not what the source is being used to prove Elinruby (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so best we dumb down the wording so all understand. Will give it a go in a bit. Moxy🍁 02:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I could be offended by that if I tried hard enough. A missionary order is not the same thing as "the Catholic church" exactly, and the only way to be accurate is to be accurate, Moxy. And to be clear, I am not asking you to do anything. Feel free to refrain. If you want to help with the article then please, help with the article and stop calling me stupid. I would deeply appreciate that. Anything that goes on the talk page will eventually get addressed by me unless someone else gets it first, so don't do it out of a sense of obligation. Right now I am adding and checking sources. As is usually the pattern, the carnage is not nearly as bad when you get out of the lede. It looks like key points got dropped as irrelevant though. But yes, I do generally expect sources to support the statement in front of them. Elinruby (talk) 15:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many cemeteries were unregistered, and as such the locations of many burial sites of residential school children have been lost.^[1]

Clarifying since I am apparently not working alone here: deaths are discussed on page 8, but nothing about cemeteries or graves and definitely not grave markers. I found mention elsewhere of rotted wooded crosses at one school though, and will make sure to include that in the section for that school the next time I see it again. If there is more than one mention after we do some updating, no objection to this returning to lede if properly supported in the body etc Elinruby (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will give you 24hrs to read the report before fixinv the page number..... This is the basic type of knowledge you need to know before editing these articles. Let me know when you're done. Moxy🍁 21:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the statement to the lead..... literally explains what the article is about. Moxy🍁 02:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Writer Robert Jago identified religion as a point of full separation between indigenous and Canadian society, holding that "[i]t is a legitimate debate for First Nations to talk about removing Catholic churches from [indigenous] territories".^[1] Indigenous leaders, including Chief Clarence Louie of the Osoyoos Indian Band, as well as the prime minister and provincial officials condemned the suspected arsons.Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).

Jago does appear to have some sort of claim to notability. I am not sure how much of one and would describe myself as fairly indifferent to the question. Possibly this is due for the Reactions section. It was in the church fires section however and I took it ouk because of all the UNDUE there is in that section already. Side note: nobody cares about these reactions, yanno. Elinruby (talk) 12:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jago is an amongst the most published Native writers active. His opinion can be relevant when attribute to an and present in a secondary reliable source. Your "side note" is baffling. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably one of the most prolific and well-known indigenous writers we have Listing of his publications in multiple sources. Moxy🍁 18:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I gathered he was somewhat known. Like I said, seems fine as a reaction. Elinruby (talk) 17:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada called for "the ongoing identification, documentation, maintenance, commemoration, and protection of residential school cemeteries or other sites at which residential school children were buried."<ref name="TRCVolume4"> Yes this is the official record. Primary source but a very good one. However a page number really is needed. This isn't a 6-page journal article. It probably does say that somewhere in there for the record, but I am not supposed to have to guess about that Elinruby (talk) 17:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Elinruby, this removal is confusing. That sourced statement explains how residential schools improperly handled burying and recording the identities of Indigenous students. My assumption is that you're reading that as somehow a justification of the missing gravesites. It, in fact, does the opposite: it indicates that weaponized incompetence and indifference led to these many unmarked graves. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for correcting the placement of my comment, Moxy. I very obviously clicked the wrong section. As a heads up to anyone watching this page, there was a change in scope at 2021 Canadian church burnings, a related article. See this talk page section over there for the details, but it was decided to trim the article to exclusively fires, rather than also including acts of destructive protest against churches related to the residential schools. TL;DR: there might be some content that was deleted there being filtered up to the reactions section here, but I don't see that as a priority. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dont have that page on my watchlist.... looks like a mess.... going to steer clear of that till we have academic publications. Moxy🍁 02:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear this was removed because you are getting an error in the source? Did you look for another source? Like "75. Develop and implement procedures for the identification and maintenance of residential school cemeteries". CBC News. 2024-05-01. Retrieved 2024-07-09. or "Missing children and burial information". Canada.ca. 2018-04-23. Retrieved 2024-07-09.Moxy🍁 02:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please correct “feral government” (sic) under Saddle Lake. 2A01:599:117:72F1:2404:C32A:B4FC:D89E (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems silent on the misleading nature of the initial media coverage that has since been walked back.

In 2021, the media announced the discovery of "mass graves" at residential schools based on ground-penetrating radar. Like the article says, some unmarked graves were found (some of which were known to exist, but just unmarked), but the initial media narrative was that thousands of children were found in mass pit graves. Some of the underground anomalies then turned out not to be bodies at all. A lot of "denialism" is fuelled by people denying this initial mischaracterization of the graves rather than denying that Residential Schools were terrible. And this article does a good job of stating accurately that they are "unmarked graves." I think the article is just incomplete without a discussion of how the narrative has been walked back - there wasn't a firestorm in 2021 because we were told there were unmarked graveyards at Residential Schools, there was one because we were told there were "mass graves"! I'd be happy to offer sources, but also this page seems contentious, so I wanted to ask for thoughts before editing. 2605:8D80:560:3AA1:79E7:45E3:629F:ADD (talk) 12:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a reliable source that describes this transition in narrative? I have seen similar statements in opinion pieces written for sources that are generally not reliable, but have yet to see RS coverage of this narrative. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]