Talk:Flag of Togo

Flag of Togo has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: August 12, 2024. (Reviewed version).

Heraldry and vexillology

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Africa: Togo Low‑importance

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A fact from Flag of Togo appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 August 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the five stripes of the flag of Togo (pictured) represent the country's five regions?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Flag of Togo.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Flag of Togo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Passed. Congrats on your first GA! — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 16:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nominator: Yue (talk · contribs) 19:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Vigilantcosmicpenguin (talk · contribs) 19:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take this review. I love the flag of Togo. Note that this is my first GAN review, so please let me know if I do anything wrong. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 19:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Well-written.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Lead section summarizes the article. Sections make sense. No weasel words or other WTW.
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	References section is good.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Statements are sourced to published books, news articles, and an encyclopedia article by a prominent expert. Primary sources are used appropriately.
	2c. it contains no original research.	All information in the article is accurate to the sources.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Primary sources are quoted appropriately. No plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Article addresses what is mentioned in reliable sources.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	All information is relevant.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Does not place undue weight or bias toward anything.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Article is stable.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	All images are free.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Images illustrate what is in the article.
	7. Overall assessment.	Good to go!

Quickfail criteria

Y No copyvio. Earwig gives a 41.9% similarity, but this is to the Constitution of Togo, which is appropriately quoted as a primary source. Next-closest is 6.5%. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 16:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y No cleanup banners.
Y Stable, with no edit wars.
Y No previous concerns or severe issues.

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 19:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First impressions

I don't think the "Gallery" section adds much to the article. The coat of arms and roundel are relevant, but not discussed in the article. The photos of the flag being used are decent images, but don't warrant a gallery section.
Article says nothing about the flag's usage or flag code. Do RSes mention this? If so, should probably be included.
Encyclopedia Britannica is, of course, a tertiary source. I think it's okay for the given details, since it's all clearly worth stating, but do we not have other sources about the symbolism?

@Vigilantcosmicpenguin: Howdy there! First of all, thank you for taking the time to do this review. Here are my responses to your first impressions:

The gallery section can be removed. I might be able to find a reliable source discussing the coat of arms and roundel though, so I will try shortly.
I looked through several government websites and archives in English and French, and to my knowledge there is no official flag code or protocol. In featured articles like the Flag of Canada, even when there is no flag code or protocol, recommendations by government bodies are described, but I could find no such thing with Togo.
During your intermission between reviews, I can double check some print sources at my university to replace Encyclopædia Britannica, but in my search I could not find another source online that describes the French Togoland flag. I'll take a look though. Whitney Smith was a well-known vexillologist though and he did a lot of the primary research during his lifetime with long-gone records from the '50s to '80s.

Thanks for your help thus far! Yue🌙 03:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found a source from the University of Lomé to back up the design of the French Togoland flag, but some other details still rely on Smith's work at Encyclopædia Britannica. Yue🌙 20:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I think Britannica is acceptable for what you've cited it for, especially with your point that Whitney Smith probably knows what he's talking about. And, if you haven't found any sources for the usage/protocol, I'll consider this to be a sufficiently broad article. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 00:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statements of concern

The statement "one of many African flags that use the pan-African colours..." isn't exactly mentioned in the article. I'm not sure if it counts as "likely to be challenged", but it's worth mentioning that other African countries adopted the colors. The source backs that up, so it'd be easy to tweak the statement in the "Symbolism" section. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 04:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y Remedied. Yue🌙 16:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I personally think it'd be better to just write "several other countries", without specifying them, as in the original source. But it's also acceptable if you want to list a few. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 16:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vigilantcosmicpenguin: Sure, we can keep the prose tight for this article. Yue🌙 16:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done: Revision. Yue🌙 16:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the article should describe Ahyi as "African Picasso" or "among the greatest". The source for this is an obituary, which is going to be biased toward characterizations like this. You should at least credit the "greatest" claim to Pierre Amrouche, as the source says. But I think it's undue, since the article is about the flag and not the designer. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 04:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y Removed. Yue🌙 16:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Besides that, all the prose looks pretty good. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 04:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vigilantcosmicpenguin: Forgot to mention a couple days ago that I was about to go on vacation. Back now; on it. Yue🌙 15:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. These are the revisions. Yue🌙 16:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source spotcheck

Since the article has relatively few sources, I'll check all the ones that are online/have online previews.

Y Posamentier & Lehmann 2011
Y Le Télégramme 2010
Y Panara 2020
Y Roussel 2020
Y Constitution of Togo 2019 (Direct quotes. Your translation is good.)
Y Government of Togo 2021
Y Smith 2001

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 00:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 18:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

Flag of Togo

... that the side lengths of the flag of Togo (pictured) are in the golden ratio?

Source: Posamentier, Alfred S.; Lehmann, Ingmar (20 December 2011). The Glorious Golden Ratio. Prometheus Books. pp. 53–54. ISBN 978-1-61614-424-1.

ALT1: ... that the five stripes of the flag of Togo (pictured) represent the country's five regions? Source: Smith, Whitney (16 February 2001). "Flag of Togo". Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Trump raised-fist photographs
Comment: ALT0 describes the quality that makes the flag of Togo like no other on the planet. However, many people may not know what the golden ratio is, but I think that's actually a good thing because it'll generate more interest in the unknown ("today I learned"). That's certainly what got me interested in the topic. If the reviewer or promoter finds ALT0 too technical for general audiences, then they may prefer ALT1, although the fact is not unique to the Togolese flag, nor is it as fascinating as ALT0. Also, if ALT0 is chosen, then the image is not necessary, appealing as it may be.

Created by Yue (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 15 past nominations.

Yue🌙 20:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Yue, review follows: article promoted to GA on 12 August and is well written; inline citations are used throughout to what look to be reliable sources for the subject matter; I didn't find any issues with overly close paraphrasing from a spot check on sources I could access; hook facts are interesting, mentioned in the article and check out to sources cited; a QPQ has been carried out; flag image is simple geometric shapes and ineligible for copyright. Looks fine to me - Dumelow (talk) 09:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reopening per a request at WT:DYK to add Regions of Togo as a 5x expansion. @Dumelow and BorgQueen:, if either of you would like to review it I can put it back myself.--Laun chba ller 13:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The hook fact isn't in the regions article. Can you add it to it somehow? BorgQueen (talk) 17:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yue: pinging. BorgQueen (talk) 17:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a rule that says the hook fact has to be in all of the articles. If there was, it would have taken out Manizha Talash's hook, currently this month's most viewed hook.--Laun chba ller 17:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very well. Good to go then.

BorgQueen (talk) 18:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Truly golden?

@Yue, I've been looking around for sources which actually confirm the ratio of the flag of Togo being equal to the golden ratio, however I've come up short. I have been unable to find any government source which specifies the proportions, neither the constitution nor the website of the presidency states such a ratio. Vexillological sources are contradictory. The CIA World Factbook does not specify any proportions. On Britannica, Whitney Smith gives a proportion of "approximately" 3:5. In the World Encyclopedia of Flags, Alfred Znamierowski gives a proportion of 2:3. DK's Complete flags of the World specifies a proportion of 2:3 also. The only sources which say that the flag of Togo has a golden ratio appear to be primarily focused on mathematics, not vexillology. Even then, Posamentier (which is cited in the article) only says the flag is "claimed to be" in the golden ratio, which is a highly suspect statement. Is there a single legal or vexillological source which states the flag's ratio is indeed golden? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 10:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After looking at the commons entry on the flag, I found out the cited source is Flags of the World (FOTW is considered to be a generally unreliable source), although FOTW cites a separate website in French. The cited website claims "For the format of the emblem, Mr. Paul AHYI planned a rectangle 0 of the golden number, measuring 1.618." I have no idea as to the credibility of this source. It appears to be a personal blog run by a native Togolese. Even so, we have no idea if this was a personal vision of the creator or if it was ever adopted into law. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 10:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've now noticed Yue has placed a citation from Dmytro Dubilet's book on flags. The problem is that Dubilet has no credentials of any kind relating to either Togolese history or vexillology. It is entirely possible he is merely perpetuating the Togolese blog's claim. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 13:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've now rewritten the passage on proportions. Do not revert without a vexillological or governmental source clarifying the flag's ratio. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:58, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Howardcorn33: I did not reply earlier because I am busy with other projects and do not have an adequate response, but a quick note is that Whitney Smith saying "approximately 3:5" is nearly the same as saying "approximately the golden ratio" because 3:5 is 1:1.666¯ and the golden ratio is 1.618 ... If it was 3:5 he would have said it was 3:5 because that ratio does not need to be approximated. Obviously, a more explicit mention of the golden ratio would be preferrable, of course. Also, I understand the desire for a government source but do not understand your contention with mathematical sources. The fact (claim) is one part vexillological and another part mathematical, so of course mathematicians will write about it. Yue🌙 18:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the file on Wikimedia Commons has used the golden ratio for the past 18 years, since 2006, so this contradiction will remain until I or someone else resolves the discrepancy. Yue🌙 18:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My contention with mathematical sources is that one of the cited sources calls it a "claim", and that these sources are mainly focused on mathematics. The flag of Togo isn't the focus of their study in this case, rather it is an example used to illustrate an entirely different concept. It is also not up to us to assume if Whitney actually intended to approximate the golden ratio in his entry, since he makes no mention of the proportions later on in the article. I'll see if I can modify the svg file for the flag to match DK and Znamierowski's given ratio. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Howardcorn33: Regardless, I do not intend to restate the golden ratio claim as fact given your reasoned arguments. I've been trying to find the Togolese proclamation of independence and looking through French-language sources for the past bit to find a credible mention but have failed to do so. At this point I will halt my efforts till a much later date when I have more time for this endeavour. Yue🌙 19:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. (btw, the article you have written is good overall I think, so good job on that) ―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]